how to use the forms

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Just wondering if anyone had any ideas on how they use the movements in the forms. example, how to you stop a knee if your clinched? What is your fav. tech. to stop a jab, hook, uppercut ect... also please leave the style of wing chun you take/teach, personally i would like to know how much the styles differ in content.

[Phil Redmond]

Just wondering if anyone had any ideas on how they use the movements in the forms. example, how to you stop a knee if your clinched? What is your fav. tech. to stop a jab, hook, uppercut ect... also please leave the style of wing chun you take/teach, personally i would like to know how much the styles differ in content.
If you're willing to post clips of you doing Wing Chun you can see the examples you're looking for here:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wckcg/

[Vajramusti]

Every knee shall be bowed.
jose/ vaya con dios x/11

[anerlich]

how to you stop a knee if your clinched?

Way too many variables here. It depends on the grips both of you have on each other. A few ideas - body lock, hip in and "hump" his leg to take away the space for knees, block one hip with one arm and use the other to fend,, unbalance him when he lifts that knee, use one of your legs to redirect incoming, ideally into an underhook of the leg with your arm.

I'd use clinch techniques in a clinch, rather than WC.


What is your fav. tech. to stop a jab, hook, uppercut

I'll show you mine if you show me yours


also please leave the style of wing chun you take/teach

Ditto

[southernkf]

I agree, too many variables. It all depends on lots of different things. Rules of thumb are stated quite elegantly in the wing chun sayings/principles. Cleave the center, chase the form, receive what comes/follow what goes, etc.

My ultimate goal is to hit. I don't necessarily focus on countering. If my opponent has an opening I go for it, as in the sayings. It is easy to become too preoccupied with what technique the opponent is doing and want to nutrualize it. But we find many sayings that advise against this. don't chase the hands, don't be afraid, defending too long leads to failure, etc.

Many of the "techniques" in wing chun are simply being at the right place at the right time while avoiding being in the wrong place. Depending on your location you might respond totally differently than if in a different position, and that technqiue may not even present itself.

I don't look at the forms as a tool box which I can pull a tool out of and apply it as is. Rather I look at them more as a text book or a lesson plan maybe. It shows things out of context and even in the abstract. I have great difficulty thinking of a technique in the form as literal. I question what I see others doing with it, dispite their apparent success in applying it in those ways.

All the technqiues have to come into your space, your body. you should maintain your structure and own the center. To counter these moves you need dominate the area. An upper cut comes from underneath as suggested in the name. Perhaps something like a gan sau would be feasible. I probably wouldn't want to do a gum sau, but that is just me. The Gan sau would only work under certain circumstances, which is why we say there are many variables. If the angles are incorrect you gotta do something else. Wing Chun is not technique based, but more reactionary depending on the input. Perhaps a better case is to simply strike back or not being in the situation to have an upper cut applied. What was the sequence of events that lead to that upper cut and could any of that have been avoided?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

i have another question that is sortof on the lines of forms, how long does it take you to do Sil lum tao on average? takes me like 15 minutes is that too fast?

[monji112000]

Just wondering if anyone had any ideas on how they use the movements in the forms. example, how to you stop a knee if your clinched? What is your fav. tech. to stop a jab, hook, uppercut ect... also please leave the style of wing chun you take/teach, personally i would like to know how much the styles differ in content.

some people say just attack and try to win by sheer tenacity.. I don't follow that opinion becouse it doesn't work in allot of situations.

For a clinch. First off you should go train with someone who is good at clinch work. I do and I always learn something new. I just don't get enough training to really do allot of things I mentally understand.

A few basic concepts exist depending on your goal and how the person is clinching you. a wrestling clinch isn't the same as a thi clinch or a boxing clinch or a judo or a jo sho on the street clinch. So lets just for examples sake the person is going for you head or neck in a goal of pulling you down and or kneeing. First you should learn how to pummel. Allot of Wing Chun prin. are used in this and you can get out of some situations quickly just by learning and doing allot of pummeling.
Second one idea is close as much distance with your hip to lessen any pull he has on your neck. IE close the distance and hip check him. One technique someone on the Forum showded me was to cross face (I use a sop sao and then press) and to check the hips with your other hand (this resembles a lower gan sao but uses the principle of the gum sao). If you were do do these two together it would look almost exactly like a Gun sao but its not. This will stop him from putting his hips into any knees and throw his balance off with the cross face. I have done it to some people outside of class when goofing around.. it works. When he gives up the clinch just do whatever you want. Another idea I got for a Chuck Liddel DVD was to use a lever style technique that resembles a qwan sao. I have also just hip checked and hooked people before they really started to clinch hard.
Go train with some people who are good at clinching you start to learn and pickup stuff. allot of time you can apply our ideas in other stuff.

Jab depends on how he is using it and if I am confident or not. Its not the jab normally you need to worry about its everything the person maybe doing with the jab (combo , setup, timing you out ect.. )

If we are talking about jo sho off the street
JO sho off the street : hook... tan sao punch come in and follow up.
jab ... qwan sao uppercut .... I don't feel comfortable using a gan sao on uppercuts. I like Bas ruttens defense, he basically paks it.. I haven't tried that but I think it would work after allot of practice.

if its a boxer ... keep your distance and coming in and out and kick/follow up.
Don't try to out box him unless you have the skill.

JMO I honestly have seen only a few people that can hang with modern MA fighters. :D That goes without saying for most TMA.

[southernkf]

We do it 15 minutes. I have heard stories of Yip Man doing it for up to an hour. Not sure if that makes it better or not. I am sure there are tons of theories for doing it X amount of minutes. Substitute any value for x. If you take a "Chi" approach, then you probably want to do it longer. I think the minimum is 15 minutes. I have heard more is not any better.

As far as the other post about the only time we keep the elbows in, I would just say that it should be the entire work out session. Hopefully that is what was meant.

[anerlich]

I've never spent as long as 15 minutes in my 18 years of training.

There are more efficient and productive ways to spend training time IMO.

Katsu, you still haven't said what style you do. It's polite to tell people about yourself if you expect them to tell you what style they do.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Katsu, you still haven't said what style you do. It's polite to tell people about yourself if you expect them to tell you what style they do.

Yip Man style, my sigung learned Pan Nam from Eddie Chong says i can learn that when ive learned all the yip man stuff.

[donbdc]

Personally,
I have gotten a lot out of stance training w/ the SLT. The opening sequence we do slowly and sometimes the whole thing takes 45 min. But usualy abou 10.
I see the importance of stance training in the drills, like lop sau. People who have a weak lower structure begin to stand up and are not sunken. Then they have no power and are easily thrown or uprooted.
Stance training is not the only thing to be gained from training the SLT either: Power, elbow line and body awareness or self structure.
Good luck
Don

[Ultimatewingchun]

There IS an advantage to be gained by doing the first section of SLT slowly - especially tan sao and the three fuk saos (and of course the wu sao's in between)...

as this can help cultivate an internal relaxed but strong spring-like energy when extending your arms (as in tan and fuk)...and by extension...to any kind of movement/technique that projects energy and power out from your body and towards the opponent.

(You could also make an argument for the wu sao developing a sinking, stabilizing energy as it returns back toward your body also, btw)...

But the problem, however, imo...is that waaaay too many wing chun people have exaggerated the importance/benefits to this kind of training in the overall scheme of things.

Imo, it's best to spend about 4-5 minutes doing the first section of SLT if you want to cultivate this "chi" power - and then do sections 2 and 3 at real time.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It is always interesting to read about others beliefs and understanding of WC forms. I have watched many people do the SLT, and most perform it as if they were statues. It is stationary form true, but it must be performed as if each technique is being performed in combat. It is the only real way that you can develop the form and alignment of the techniques. Doing the tan sao, outer gate reference, inner gate reference, fook sao, does not really develop Chi when done slowly. What it does is allow one to do the technique as perfectly as he or she can possible do. It is like pushing a really heavy weight. You can always apply more push if you are perfectly alligned behind it and pushing with the right allignment of the arms. This entire form should be done as slowly as you possibly can without losing focus and concentration. At least until you develop the fluid motion and structure that is required to focus your techniques. Most people get in too great a hurry and try to develop blinding speed in their execution of the techniques. But in doing so they lose structure and focus. They do it like it was a fight form that is used in Karate or some other styles of Kung Fu. Each function or technique is seperate and different, in a chain of techniques. None really in relation to the next. Once the techniques are done perfectly you can start increasing speed. Speed alone is not what you should really focus upon. Fluid motion that is without hesitation is like water that is poured. It does not move so quickly, but it moves continually and nothing can catch it until it finds it's place.
Chi is real, but it is not some mystic power that one develops. It is not a parlor trick. We all have learned about the expelling of breath in a quick yell on striking. Well, Your power is derived from your center of balance. Not from the ground or anything like that, but from your own gut. When you focus your strike you expell your chi as you make contact, giving you an instant of sudden enhanced force or power. Chi is when you have developed your technique so perfectly that you can apply your sudden surge of power at the very instant of impact. You should have your striking weapon so developed that this all becomes as natural and deliberate as breathing. That is what SLT is really all about.

[jet64]

i have another question that is sortof on the lines of forms, how long does it take you to do Sil lum tao on average? takes me like 15 minutes is that too fast?

learning it is easy, but mastering it is the real question. find a good sifu who can explain this to you.

chill! :)

[donbdc]

I would be glad to give you a specific answer to a specific move in the form if you wanted to break it down that way. There are 108 move all practical and useful.
I am in CRCA wing chun and I am sure my responses would be different than some b/c of that and I am working on my SLT level test, so this would help me.
How long have you been syudying WC by the way?
Don