wine for dit da jao

[deeperthantao]

hey

I'm in the process of making a large container of jao, wondering what a good alcohol base might be? , the recipe suggests vodka, but I would prefer to use chinese wine, or something along those lines.

cheers

[herb ox]

Shaoxing wine is a good yellow rice wine that makes a good brew. It has a distinct aroma when you make the jow with it. This wine is available at just about any Chinese market and is fairly inexpensive.

good luck

herb ox

[TenTigers]

shaoxing is weak, however. Most Chinese herbalists use Sam Jing Jow-'triple distilled liquor" it is about 80 proof,like vodka.

[lhommedieu]

My personal preference is to use cheap "American Whiskey" that comes in at about 80 proof. It typically contains about 20% of rye or bourbon type whiskey and about 80% mass-produced, corn-based spirit.

Some herbs are said to disolve better in alcohol, some better in water, and some better in each solvent at different stages - so I assume that a higher proof will accelerate the process.

Glass bottles are standard due to the issue of the herb/alcohol liquid disolving petroleum-based products over time. I use 1 gallon carboys available from home-brewery suppliers and natural cork stoppers.

If you are looking for a stronger, more neutral solvent, then the sorghum-based liquors to be found in Chinese-owned liquor stores are excellent - although they are hard to find. They come in at about 100 - 110 proof. I have also used this to make "Tiger Bone" wine (internal) with excellent results.

Just an aside: for internal formulas that call for rice-based Chinese wines, I find that bai jiu (white wine) produces a smoother liquor than huang jiu (yellow wine).

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Royal Dragon]

I just started fermenting 10 gallons of rice wine. in 6 weeks I will distill it down to about 3 at 50% alcohol.

It's really easy to do. Just order a 5 gallon glass barrel ($30.00) off the internet.

Boil a good high quality rice untill it is goo, and put it in the fermentation barrell.

Do not strain the water out.

Mix in a good amount of pure honey (as a nutritional supplement for the alcohal making yeast)

Leave it uncovered for a few days untill it starts bubbling good.

Once it does, fill the barrel up 3/4 of the way to the top with water between 90-100 degrees F, and cap it for 6 weeks.

After 6 weeks, strain out the mash and then freez the wine in plastic ice mountian jugs to seperate out the pure alcohal. You have about a 2 gallons of Chinese white lightning to make all the jow you can handle.

Aftert the first batch, the rest of them will cost you whatever the cost of a bag of rice, and a bottle of honey...whic is under $3.00 a batch if you buy the honey bulk at Costco.

[Indestructible]

I'd like to try this sometime. Can you be a little more specific on the amount of rice for a five gallon carboy? "good amount of pure honey" like a cup or 2 cups? Do you add yeast or will it ferment on its own?
Thanks,
Inde




I just started fermenting 10 gallons of rice wine. in 6 weeks I will distill it down to about 3 at 50% alcohol.

It's really easy to do. Just order a 5 gallon glass barrel ($30.00) off the internet.

Boil a good high quality rice untill it is goo, and put it in the fermentation barrell.

Do not strain the water out.

Mix in a good amount of pure honey (as a nutritional supplement for the alcohal making yeast)

Leave it uncovered for a few days untill it starts bubbling good.

Once it does, fill the barrel up 3/4 of the way to the top with water between 90-100 degrees F, and cap it for 6 weeks.

After 6 weeks, strain out the mash and then freez the wine in plastic ice mountian jugs to seperate out the pure alcohal. You have about a 2 gallons of Chinese white lightning to make all the jow you can handle.

Aftert the first batch, the rest of them will cost you whatever the cost of a bag of rice, and a bottle of honey...whic is under $3.00 a batch if you buy the honey bulk at Costco.

[lhommedieu]

I just started fermenting 10 gallons of rice wine. in 6 weeks I will distill it down to about 3 at 50% alcohol....

...After 6 weeks, strain out the mash and then freez the wine in plastic ice mountian jugs to seperate out the pure alcohal. You have about a 2 gallons of Chinese white lightning to make all the jow you can handle.

Thanks for sharing the recipe. So it comes out to about 100 proof?

It reminds me a story that my Dad told me about how they made apple jack back in the '30's: they'd take fresh apple cider and add some raisins and let it ferment for several weeks. Then they'd freeze the water and wait for the alcohol to collect in the center of the container.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[TenTigers]

Hey Steve,
I think our Dads hung out together! My Dad used to do the same thing!
I "discovered" hard cider my first year in college. We bought a few gallons from the local cider mill, which we kept in the fridge. What I didn't realize is that cider turns.So one day, before going to class, I poured myself a large glass of cider. I did notice that it was slightly "off" and mildly effervescent. Well, by the time I got to class, it had hit me, and I was a bit tipsy! Well, as you can guess, we made alot of purchases of cider after that!:p

[lhommedieu]

Hey Steve,
I think our Dads hung out together! My Dad used to do the same thing!
I "discovered" hard cider my first year in college. We bought a few gallons from the local cider mill, which we kept in the fridge. What I didn't realize is that cider turns.So one day, before going to class, I poured myself a large glass of cider. I did notice that it was slightly "off" and mildly effervescent. Well, by the time I got to class, it had hit me, and I was a bit tipsy! Well, as you can guess, we made alot of purchases of cider after that!:p

http://www.leeners.com/cider.html

I don't think I need to spend $500 for an apple press just yet - at least not until my taste for hard cider grows. The URL states that most apple cider is available in the stores today is treated and will rot before it ferments. I should be able to get a good unprocessed wine cider from a supplier or make the apple juice with my "Juiceman" and soak the skins for a day or two for color. I'll let you know how it goes (the proof will be in the pour).

Best,

Steve

[TenTigers]

Hey Steve, you might want to check out Jericho Cider Mill, and there is also a cider mill on Jericho Tpke. They would probably have fresh unpasteurized cider.
Rik

[lhommedieu]

Hey Steve, you might want to check out Jericho Cider Mill, and there is also a cider mill on Jericho Tpke. They would probably have fresh unpasteurized cider.
Rik

That's funny - I stop there all the time on my way home from work if I take the Northern State to Rt. 106 N. I've been meaning to check out the mill on Rt. 25 for a while now, as well. There's also Richter's on Pulaski out by Old Bridge road (near Commack( that's more local to me.

Best,

Steve

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Is all Dit Da Jow made using drinking alchol or can it be made with something else like Bay Rum?

In Jamaica, Bay Rum is used to reduce fever by rubbing it on and massaging into the skin. Sometimes also used as a topical rub, and some use it as an aftershave.

While part of the process to make it contains alcohol, the resultant product is NOT for drinking. Since it is forbidden for me as a muslim to drink or purchase drinking alcohol, I'm wondering if this would be useable to make Jow with.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hot jows are usualy done with vinegar and contain no alcohol. You could look into those rather than the cold jows that are made with wines etc.. . The hot stuff works better anyway.

Thanks for the info! :cool:

[deeperthantao]

thanks for the info guy's, now the fun part...

[Dale Dugas]

Hot jows are usualy done with vinegar and contain no alcohol. You could look into those rather than the cold jows that are made with wines etc.. . The hot stuff works better anyway.


Do NOT make a jow with vinegar as this will break down into acetone over time and that is a no no. Also using vinegar over time will make the bones soften. Another strike against it.

Sorry to hear your religion is getting in the way of training.

Be well, train hard

[Nebuchadnezzar]

...Sorry to hear your religion is getting in the way of training.

Be well, train hard

I didn't say that it was. Explain please.

[lhommedieu]

Probably not the best way of stating that...

A PM might clarify the issue.

***

Not sure if hot jiu's are better than cold ones; they are for some things...

Vinegar is added to many jiu's because it is a medium thought to be good for the tendons. The proportion that I use is generally 1 cup per gallon of jiu. You'd have to soak in vinegar an awful long time to soften bones, by which I mean that the flesh would have to peel off the bones first...

Why not use rubbing alcohol (available at the drug store) and dilute the alcohol content to 50% if your religion prohibits you from buying drinking alcohol? You'll get the same results.

Best,

Steve

[Dale Dugas]

A cup to a gallon is not that much.

I thought you meant that the whole formula would be simmered in vinegar. Too caustic for one thing as well as having even more of a chance to break down into acetone...

Thanks for the clarification.


Neb,

You mentioned that due to your religion you are not supposed to buy booze "Since it is forbidden for me as a muslim to drink or purchase drinking alcohol, I'm wondering if this would be useable to make Jow with."

Hence my comment that your religion is getting in the way of using the basic medicine that is needed to insure you have no injuries and long term damage from training. It was not a slight only an observation to what you posted.

Can you purchase premade liniments that have been turned from potable to non potable with the addition of the herbs?? I make and sell dit da jow for injuries and Iron Palm training. I use rice wine as a base but its not drinkable in any sense of the word after being treated.

Be well, train hard

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Probably not the best way of stating that...

A PM might clarify the issue.

***

Not sure if hot jiu's are better than cold ones; they are for some things...

Vinegar is added to many jiu's because it is a medium thought to be good for the tendons. The proportion that I use is generally 1 cup per gallon of jiu. You'd have to soak in vinegar an awful long time to soften bones, by which I mean that the flesh would have to peel off the bones first...

Why not use rubbing alcohol (available at the drug store) and dilute the alcohol content to 50% if your religion prohibits you from buying drinking alcohol? You'll get the same results.

Best,

Steve


Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated. But, can Bay Rum be another alternative? Trying to cover all bases so to speak.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

A cup to a gallon is not that much.

I thought you meant that the whole formula would be simmered in vinegar. Too caustic for one thing as well as having even more of a chance to break down into acetone...

Thanks for the clarification.


Neb,

You mentioned that due to your religion you are not supposed to buy booze "Since it is forbidden for me as a muslim to drink or purchase drinking alcohol, I'm wondering if this would be useable to make Jow with."

Hence my comment that your religion is getting in the way of using the basic medicine that is needed to insure you have no injuries and long term damage from training. It was not a slight only an observation to what you posted.

Can you purchase premade liniments that have been turned from potable to non potable with the addition of the herbs?? I make and sell dit da jow for injuries and Iron Palm training. I use rice wine as a base but its not drinkable in any sense of the word after being treated.

Be well, train hard

Kind of figured that but it's better when explained by you. Incomplete thoughts that are voiced or written can cause conflict. Someone else would probably have not wanted to hear what you meant.

Thanks for the input. What other premade liniments are there that can be used? Like I said in my previous post, trying to cover all bases.

[lhommedieu]

A cup to a gallon is not that much.

I thought you meant that the whole formula would be simmered in vinegar. Too caustic for one thing as well as having even more of a chance to break down into acetone...

Thanks for the clarification.

Actually, that's what I use. Hokpaiwes is the one with whom you have some concern as he was the one who posted originally about using vinegar in jows.

What's a "hot" jow? Is it something that simmers over a heat source or does it have hot herbs? How big is the pot? 5 gallons? 10 gallons? Is the jow used to limber muscles before training or to treat injuries or both?

Re. Bay Rum: Is it traditional bay rum? This is from Wikipedia:

"Bay rum is the name of a cologne or an after-shave.

It is a distillate that was originally made from rum and the leaves or berries of the West Indian Bay tree, Pimenta racemosa. Other ingredients may be citrus and spice oils.

Bay rum was quite popular in the early 20th century; while still in use, it is no longer common.

Other uses include as under-arm deodorant and as a fragrance for shaving soap."

I would guess that you would need to know the ingredients before you went ahead and added herbs for jow. I don't know the herbal nature of the leaves and berries of the West Indian bay tree, or what spice oils are added, but if they are of a "hot" nature then you would need to balance them out with cooler herbs or your jiu would be unsuitable for acute injuries.

My best guess is that you're better off using rubbing alcohol as per above for a jiu and using bay rum for eveyday use if you like it as a cologne.

Speaking of which: I'd like to try it. Wikipeida says that it is no longer common. Are there any traditional brands that you recommend? If it's a home-made product, I'll trade you a bottle of my homemade jiu for a bottle of your bay rum...

Best,

Steve

[dougadam]

I am looking for a good dit da jao recipe. Does anyone recommend one?

[Royal Dragon]

I'd like to try this sometime. Can you be a little more specific on the amount of rice for a five gallon carboy? "good amount of pure honey" like a cup or 2 cups?

Reply]
I make enough rice so after it has been boiled to goo it comes to 25-30% of the 5 gallon container.

Do you add yeast or will it ferment on its own?

Reply]
I useually add yeast, becasue I like the Champagne yeasts due to the higher alcohol tolerances. It WILL ferment on it's own, but doing it natural like that gives an uncertian alcohol tolerance.

The highr the tolerance, the greater concentration of alcohol you have before the yeast dies off.

The straines of yeast used for champagne are good to 18%, where as other yests are only good to 12-14% Others still are around 16%

If you buy a specific strain, you know exactly what you can end up with.

When you use the natural yeast from the surrounding air, it's anyones guess.

To ferment naturally, boil your rice till it is goo, and leave uncovered out in the open for a few hours. Then cover it for a few more. Finnally add that to your fermentation barell, and mix in a cup or two of honey (For 5 gallons). I generally just eye ball this stage, as my purpose of the honey is just to more rapidy grow the yeast to a level where it is fermenting the rice on a large scale. Most peole just use sugar. You can do without, but it takes an extra week that way.

[Dale Dugas]

I am looking for a good dit da jao recipe. Does anyone recommend one?

I make and sell 6 formula. Take a look via my website link in my signature.

Be well, train hard

[Dale Dugas]

to the top

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Actually, that's what I use. Hokpaiwes is the one with whom you have some concern as he was the one who posted originally about using vinegar in jows.

What's a "hot" jow? Is it something that simmers over a heat source or does it have hot herbs? How big is the pot? 5 gallons? 10 gallons? Is the jow used to limber muscles before training or to treat injuries or both?

Re. Bay Rum: Is it traditional bay rum? This is from Wikipedia:

"Bay rum is the name of a cologne or an after-shave.

It is a distillate that was originally made from rum and the leaves or berries of the West Indian Bay tree, Pimenta racemosa. Other ingredients may be citrus and spice oils.

Bay rum was quite popular in the early 20th century; while still in use, it is no longer common.

Other uses include as under-arm deodorant and as a fragrance for shaving soap."

I would guess that you would need to know the ingredients before you went ahead and added herbs for jow. I don't know the herbal nature of the leaves and berries of the West Indian bay tree, or what spice oils are added, but if they are of a "hot" nature then you would need to balance them out with cooler herbs or your jiu would be unsuitable for acute injuries.

My best guess is that you're better off using rubbing alcohol as per above for a jiu and using bay rum for eveyday use if you like it as a cologne.

Speaking of which: I'd like to try it. Wikipeida says that it is no longer common. Are there any traditional brands that you recommend? If it's a home-made product, I'll trade you a bottle of my homemade jiu for a bottle of your bay rum...

Best,

Steve

Wikipedia is starting to be unreliable as a source of information. I've seen it with other things that I've looked up, and now this is another example.

Bay Rum is VERY commonly used among West Indians and Hispanics. It isn't used as a cologne, some people use it as an aftershave since is cools and helps heal the skin. My father used to use it when he cut my hair as a kid (buzz cut).

It's also used by applying directly to the skin and rubbing it in when reducing fevers (also put on a cloth ad tied on the head). The smell was good as a sort of aroma therapy for the sick person as well. Rub it on the chest and neck.

Ultimately, it's a non-drinkable alcohol, so I asked about it's use for making Dit Da Jow.

[lhommedieu]

Do you have a list of the ingredients? If it's cooling in nature it may not be just due to the alcohol evaporating - the herbs may have cooling properties as well.
A western (or perhaps, West Indian) herbalist might be able to tell you the properties of the herbs.

For example, this site lists properties of the West Indian Bay Rum leaf after it has been distilled with rum and water:

http://www.herbbee.com/essential-oil-profiles/west-indian-bay/

Easy to see why it is used as an aftershave - several of the chemicals have antibacterial properties, and one has anti-inflamitory properties.

Best,

Steve

[deeperthantao]

Hi

another question, is there a major difference in outcome if the herbs are not finely ground, I ground them to the best of my ability but did not have a proper grinder/pestel.


cheers

[mickey]

Greetings,

Such good info on moonshine!


I had a good internal/external jow that I prepared two different ways.

The first way was done with Kao Liang Chiew (a very potent rice wine). That combined with the herbs over 6 months made a very potent brew. The effect was that the wine caused the energy to go to my head, generating a tumescent feeling when consumed.

The second way was with Johnnie Walker Black over 6 months. The energy circulated through my body much better than the previous one when consumed. I immediately gravitated to this one for external use.


mickey

[lhommedieu]

Hi

another question, is there a major difference in outcome if the herbs are not finely ground, I ground them to the best of my ability but did not have a proper grinder/pestel.


cheers

Not sure. I've never bothered to grind the herbs down finely. I generally use a coarse grind or don't grind them at all but just break them up into small pieces. Does anyone know if herbs start to lose their potency if they've been ground fine and exposed to air for a short amount of time?

Best,

Steve

p.s. Rik - Jericho Cider Mill will provide unpasteurized cider for apple jack so long as you bring a 5 gallon carboy specifically for that purpose. You need to call them first and find out when they are pressing.

[Dale Dugas]

I do not think a small amount of time is going to do anything bad to your herbs. I grind the tien chi/tin chut as the things have consistencies of rocks. Other than that I cut them up to get them into the 5 gallon carboys I use to make medicine.

Be well,

Dale

[PlumDragon]

Does anyone know if herbs start to lose their potency if they've been ground fine and exposed to air for a short amount of time?Most stuff is ok to grind, but be careful about what you grind up; the heat generated in a fine grind can wipe out some of the volatile oils in some herbs.

Also, finely ground matter can tend to adhere more strongly than coarsely ground matter, which will have the effect of disallowing a good dispersion of compounds into the liquid and giving the opposite effect desired. It really all comes back to the aging time.

I wrote this article a few years ago about grinding herbs; its really old, so no making fun of the old school format...But it offers some legitimate points about the topic:

http://www.plumdragonjow.com/grind.html

[lhommedieu]

Nice article. Thanks for sharing.

For short periods of time I agree that exposure to air probably won't make much of a difference - particularly if the herbs are placed in capsules/bottles or tightly wrapped in plasic bags. But occasionally I have patients who forget to pick up their herbs on time, and I have "standard" formulas that I place in capsules for patients who don't like decoctions.

What would you estimate to be a reasonable "shelf life" for finely ground herbs either in capsule/bottle or wrapped tightly in plastic bags?

Best,

Steve

[PlumDragon]

Nice article. Thanks for sharing.Thanks Steve, Im glad you enjoyed it!



What would you estimate to be a reasonable "shelf life" for finely ground herbs either in capsule/bottle or wrapped tightly in plastic bags?Ive spoken to several botanists and growers about this and similar topics. Suffice it to say that one could probably spend an entire career researching and learning about these sorts of things, with both whole and ground herbs. There are even people who study whether or not certain things were "dead" when picked, and the differences in appearance and smell, before and after grinding!

With that said, here are some general guidelines that Ive come to trust. The values below dont render an herb useless, but are more based on when noticeable degredation of the compounds has taken place:

- Finely ground herbs well wrapped and contained have a shelf life of about 2-3 months. Capsules seem to work pretty well for maintaining freshness; I am really really anal about this sort of thing, so this is a nitpick, but to ensure the best of shelf-life, wear a pair of latex gloves while making your capsules, etc so that you dont accidentally leave behind any oils from skin contact.
- Coarsely ground herbs well wrapped and contained have a shelf life of about 3-6 months. Surface area increases exponentially once you start going from "coarse" to "fine". Packing tightly will help alleviate this problem for both types of grinds.
- Whole herbs well wrapped and contained have a shelf-life between 6-15 months. Some herbs are still quite well intact after 18 months, but from a business perspective, I find its always best to simply replace them if they sit for more than about 9 months.
- Extracts and modern Patents have a shelf life of several years.

There are some exceptions, chen pi being an obvous good example because it generally gets better as it ages--I dont know if this is the case if it is ground however.

Also, there are some things you can do to increase the shelf-life. If you know you will be storing herbs, one notable item is make sure the herb is as dry as possible. Things like Dang Gui can show up from suppliers with a bit of malleability in them, which is in part due to an unfinished drying process. Exposing these indirectly to some type of hydroscopic substace (ie dessicant) can remove some of that moisture and encourage a longer shelf life...

Hope that helps! =)

[lhommedieu]

Thanks! It's great to have guidelines regarding shelf-life and being able to plan and budget accordingly. For example, if I'm only selling 1-2 bottles of a capsuled herb formula per month, and I have 50 bottles on the shelf, then it's probably better to order from a trusted retailer with a greater turnover. On the other hand, if it's something that I can only make myself, it's probably better to grind a small amound of herbs myself rather than ask someone to grind it for me - as they usually have a minimum order re. the amount they will grind.

Yet another argument for decoctions. Do you think my patients will buy into it?

Thanks again.

Steve

[hskwarrior]

you can also use vinegar........my sigung uses it, and he has some of the best jow i've ever seen out there.........very old recipe.