How was Chinese medicine developed?

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, here’s a question, how did a relatively primitive society develop Chinese herbal medicine, accuprssure/punture/ cupping and other practices?

I mean, take the herbs, how did they KNOW an herb was a kidney tonic? How did they figure that out? It's not like they could test and see that this was so...they totally lacked the technology to truly see the effects of these herbs on the organs.

How do they know it wasn't just an adrenal stimulant? And for the herbs that are adrenal stimulants, how could they tell it is that, and not just a nervous stem stimulant?

My materia medica has over 400 herbs in it, all of which have been used since ancient times.

I am asking because I just had a really bad gout attack, and used herbs to get my uric acid levels under control. I was able to do this because preexisting formulas exist for this, and the effects of the herbs are known....but HOW did they figure out what those herbs do?

Most have no noticeable effect unless you have gout pain. How did they "KNOW" Gout was caused by uric acid level being too high, and even more importantly, how did they know which plants to used to get it under control, with out a scientifically valid way to test these herbs and their effects?

Was this technology given to us by aliens? Were we once much more technologically advance than we are today? Are some people just born with built in exray vision, and the supper human ability to read blood toxicity with no medical equipment?

How did they figure all this out with no analytical technology?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Look up Zoopharmacognosy.

[Royal Dragon]

Look up Zoopharmacognosy.

Reply]
Google came back with some interesting results. Apparently it is some sort of instinct?

That being said, what is the mechanism of it? For example, how did man figure out the meridians in a detailed enough fashion to map them?

If at one time, we just instinctually knew what to eat when we were sick, how come we don't know that now?

And how did we figure out the actually effect these plants had on us?

For example, a disease caused by a Kidney deficiency...how did we KNOW which plants influenced the Kidneys?

How did we make the jump form knowing what to eat when we are sick, to the much more detailed explanations of How it effected us internally....without having a way to measure?

[Doc Stier]

How did man figure out the meridians in a detailed enough fashion to map them?

And how did we figure out the actual effect these plants had on us?



Hello Royal Dragon and Xiao Meng!

The answer to both of these questions is simply through observation and experimentation. Traditional folklore contains reports of ancient healers noting a correlation between various anatomical injury and wound sites and some subsequent impact on a specific internal organ's physiological function. Following repeated observations of this kind, especially as related to military injuries and wounds, experimentation was conducted which led to the eventual mapping of the acupuncture points and the ching-luo meridian channels to which the points belong.

In the case of traditional medicines catalogued in the Chinese Materia Medica, the Emperor Shen Nung is said to have initially prepared and ingested 100 different plant ingredients, adding over 200 other ingredients later on, and to have recorded the medicinal action, physiological effect, and energetic properties of each individual item around 2000 B.C.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/chinese/images/027c.jpg

http://www.pharmacy.wsu.edu/History/images/picture03.jpg

Others followed his example thereafter, expanding the list of individual plant items in the Materia Medica to 600 in total, including mineral and animal items as well, along with recording several hundred formulas that combine two or more of these individual ingredients in works such as Shen-Nung Pen Ts'ao Pei Yao Yi Fang Ho Pien (Herbal and Prescriptions)

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/chinese/images/001c.jpg

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/chinese/images/021c.jpg

https://secure.reservexl.net/wwwimg/img/tours/4519-3.jpg

http://www.khulsey.com/travel/beijing_traditional_medicine_pharmacy.jpeg

Doc

[Xiao3 Meng4]

If at one time, we just instinctually knew what to eat when we were sick, how come we don't know that now?


Who says we don't? :D Read the "Cultivation" thread in the TaiJiQuan forum for more on this.



And how did we figure out the actually effect these plants had on us?


Doc Stier's answer is pretty concise, describing the classical history of Chinese Medicine.



How did we make the jump form knowing what to eat when we are sick, to the much more detailed explanations of How it effected us internally....without having a way to measure?

The transmitted oral tradition didn't happen overnight. It most likely happened as a response to the slowly emerging disconnect with nature stemming from the development of the agricultural revolution and its resulting dependent societies. Teachable models became a substitute for dormant virtues.
Again, Zoopharmacognosy and its parallels are not necessarily lost abilities. ;)

Christian

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Hello Royal Dragon and Xiao Meng!

The answer to both of these questions is simply through observation and experimentation.

What's up, Doc? :) Thanks for taking the time to write!



In the case of traditional medicines catalogued in the Chinese Materia Medica, the Emperor Shen Nung is said to have initially prepared and ingested 100 different plant ingredients, adding over 200 other ingredients later on, and to have recorded the medicinal action, physiological effect, and energetic properties of each individual item around 2000 B.C.


It is also said that he had a transparent belly, and could watch the herbs take effect. :eek:

[Doc Stier]

It is also said that he had a transparent belly, and could watch the herbs take effect. :eek:



Sounds like Shen Nung was generally a pretty 'gutsy' guy to me. ;)

Doc :)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Sounds like Shen Nung was generally a pretty 'gutsy' guy to me. ;)

Doc :)

...Or just really hungry. :)

[Doc Stier]

Here's a short piece which relates one of the folk stories regarding Shen Nung's initial ispiration to conduct his experiments. Enjoy!

Doc

************************************************** ***************

Shen Nung

Emperor Shen Nung was determined to enlighten his people to the virtues of discipline and wholesome living. He passed strict laws to expedite enlightenment. Citizens of China were ordered to boil all water before drinking, for reasons of purity.

Shen Nung frequently toured his country, observing farmers in their fields, tasting plants, sleeping upon the earth, and spreading the healthy word. One evening, as the Emperor's servant boiled water for his master to drink, leaves from a nearby tree fell into the water. Shen Nung noticed that the leaves had stained the water. Being an avid herbalist, he tasted the infusion. And he pronounced it good.

The tree that shed leaves into Shen Nung's water was the wild ancestor of Camellia Sinensis, the source of all modern tea (excepting herbal infusions).

Shen Nung immediately commenced the large-scale cultivation of tea in China. The people of China, trusting of their benevolent Emperor, began drinking tea in earnest.

After water, tea is the most-consumed beverage on Earth.

Circa 800 AD, Lu Yu wrote the Ch'a Ching, the Tea Classic. In it he documented, exhaustively, the cultivation and preparation of Chinese tea, and defined a style of tea service which reflected the principles and aesthetics of Chinese Chan Buddhism. When Buddhist missionaries moved into Japan, they carried tea, believing it "conducive to religious meditation."

The Japanese went for tea in a big way, refining the Chinese manner of tea service into an elaborate art form: 'cha-no-yu', meaning 'hot water for tea'.

[Doc Stier]

here's another short piece relating Shen Nung's contribution to farming and plant cultivation in ancient China. He is traditionally considered the Father of Chinese Medicine and Agriculture in the pantheon of figures represented in Chinese folklore and mythology.

Doc

************************************************** ***************

The second of the San-Huang (Three Emperors) to rule over China, Shen-Nung was a mortal in the very earliest days of China (2800 B.C.). Announcing himself 'Lord of the Burning Wind', his slash-and-burn policy of clearing scrublands left the ground rich in potash ready for ploughing and planting. He then taught his fellow mortals how to farm, and became known as the 'Divine Farmer King'.

But he's best known for his knowledge of herbs, drugs and medicine. He single-handedly tasted each and every plant in China to see what was yummy and what would kill you. Legend tells that during his research he was once poisoned no less than seventy-two times in a single day. Amazingly, he suffered no long-term ill effects. Perhaps the medicinal plants and poisonous plants cancelled each other out.

[lhommedieu]

Traditional folklore contains reports of ancient healers noting a correlation between various anatomical injury and wound sites and some subsequent impact on a specific internal organ's physiological function. Following repeated observations of this kind, especially as related to military injuries and wounds, experimentation was conducted which led to the eventual mapping of the acupuncture points and the ching-luo meridian channels to which the points belong.

A complementary theory is that the practice of shamanistic ritual dance eventually led to the development of qigong, and that the consequent mapping of the meridians led to the discovery of acupuncture points.

John Pirog makes a persuasive argument in Meridian Style Acupuncture that early "acupuncture" consisted primarily of bleeding techniques using stone or bone needles. The eventual development of metalurgy gave healers the technological means to treat acupuncture points more precisely, and the development of agriculture water management provided an early theoretical foundation for mapping the meridians and describing their functions.

Best,

Steve

[Doc Stier]

A complementary theory is that the practice of shamanistic ritual dance eventually led to the development of qigong, and that the consequent mapping of the meridians led to the discovery of acupuncture points.

John Pirog makes a persuasive argument in Meridian Style Acupuncture that early "acupuncture" consisted primarily of bleeding techniques using stone or bone needles. The eventual development of metalurgy gave healers the technological means to treat acupuncture points more precisely, and the development of agriculture water management provided an early theoretical foundation for mapping the meridians and describing their functions.



Hi Steve:

From my perspective, based on extensive formal education in Oriental Medicine and more than 35 years of clinical application of acupuncture and related treatment modalities, I believe that the energy points were discovered first, and that the mapping of the ching-luo meridian channel vessels occured later. I say this because regardless of the stimulation technique that is applied to the points, whether that be via a needle, moxa, or pressure, as common examples, the stimulation frequently produces a 'streaming' sensation of energy movement towards other energy points on the same meridian channel line, and sometimes even to other meridian channels via connecting vessels or collateral vessels.

This has undoubtedly always been true, and was undoubtedly noticed and recorded by many healers when repeatedly observed to be the case over time, just as I have noted the phenomenon myself. Eventually, due to this 'streaming' movement of the intrinsic energy through meridian channels from one energy point to another and another and another, the meridian channels were eventually mapped out in a primitively drawn 'chart' style for continuing reference as to the location of specific points and the normal direction of energy movement within a particualr channel, just as they are used today. Click on the following images when they appear to see a enlarged view for greater detail:

http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/bodies/illustrations/acupuncture-lg.jpg

http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/bodies/yellow-lg.jpg

I can imagine that observing the movement of water through irrigation and drainage ditches might be seen as an analogy for the movement of intrinsic energy within the human body's meridian channels and conduits, but it's hard to believe that such observations preceded the mapping of the meridian channels and vessels. It is much more probable, IMO, that such a similarity would only be noted relative to already established charting of the energy meridian channels.

Thus, both of the quoted theories appear to be "putting the cart in front of the horse" in a way that doesn't quite work very well while trying to determine "which came first? The chicken or the egg?" ;)

I have gathered a collection of meridian charts ranging from ancient to modern times, showing the development of their graphic presentation, which can be viewed here:

http://shenmentao.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=260

Doc

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I'm with lhommedieu on this one.

It's my understanding that meridian theory was initially the basis of point theory, although at some point overlap probably occured, especially after confucius and the desire for ideal models within Chinese society.

From a physiological, kinesiological, and behavioural perspective, points are superfluous. Teach someone proper Qi Gong and life skills, and you'll have effects which, albeit over a longer period of time, equate and/or exceed the results achieved with acupuncture. The Ma Wang Dui texts actually had a greater amount of Qi Gong information than meridian information, which was again greater than point information.

The idea of points being developed via bloodletting with "Bian" (Stone needles) has anthropological weight as well, although I'd add Moxa, Cupping and Massage to the initial grouping of external meridian treatments too.

Donald Harper's Book, Early Chinese Medical Literature: The MaWangDui Medical Manuscripts (http://books.google.ca/books?id=RWUCAAAACAAJ&dq=donald+harper+early+chinese+medical+literature) is, although quite scholarly, a valuable read on this subject.

Doc Stier: Nice images you have there. One thing to note is that Zang Fu association with the meridians happened later in Chinese Medical History. For instance, the Large Intestine Meridian was originally called the "Tooth Meridian," and the Small Intestine Meridian was originally named "The Shoulder Meridian." In Modern Practice, these two meridians are used to treat diseases related with the old names, often more so than disorders of their related Fu.

Christian

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, so there was a lot of experimentation, but what about herbs that show no outward effects?

For example, Ginseng is clearly a tonic, but what about Ji Xue Teng? It has no outwardly visible effect on the body. How did they know it opened the channels in the limbs, and Lower back?

How about Hawthorn Berries, or Scizandra? Those also have no noticable outward effect. Yes, the use of them does show an improvement in your Kung Fu, but how did they figure out the detailed effects on the heart without some way to monitor cardiac output? How did they know Hawthorn (for example) improved blood flow to the heart, and could be used in heart attack paitents?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Ok, so there was a lot of experimentation, but what about herbs that show no outward effects?


How can herb quality, food quality, air quality or water quality have no observable effects? Perhaps you mean "no instant/acute effects"? Many of these therapeutic models were the result of hundreds, if not thousands of years of observation and transmitted oral tradition, more so than the results of a single experiment. Chinese Medicine is based on Empirical evidence, not the scientific method.

Christian

[PlumDragon]

Ok, so there was a lot of experimentation, but what about herbs that show no outward effects?

how did they figure out the detailed effects on the heart without some way to monitor cardiac output? How did they know Hawthorn (for example) improved blood flow to the heart, and could be used in heart attack paitents?
Macrscopic empericism:

Wind, heat, cold, dryness, etc etc...Things that one could sense about the world, used as an analogy for the bodys insides and outsides. The Chinese doctors of old were not concerned with cardiac flow as they didnt even really care about how veins and arteries mapped, they knew nought of the central nervous or the isolation of diseases and such.

Did the herb make you sweat? Did it make the pressure in your head tend to stop, or other feelings sink or rise? Did pulse change? Did cuts disappear more quickly when wrapped with this herb versus that one which only causes a rash? And its certainly not a far stretch to consider that they understood simple mathematical ideas like transitive axioms, which no doubt could be helpful in determining certain things. Perhaps they even founded simple but profound ideas like the docrine of similarities based on what might seem like a silly idea that a child might come up with, but with some simple trial and error found it to be effective.

With generation after generation after generation of medically inclined individuals, they certainly were able to deduce things in ways that we couldnt know without being there, just as NASA is able to deduce certain things and get propulsion systems to Saturn on standard error that is infinitesimal, in ways that we couldnt possibly know without going through some training and workign 40 hours a week for years to obtain the same.

I find your question interesting and worthwhile to discuss, but I think you could pose this question to any field of study that has done due diligence in research and innovation...How do geologists know how rocks formed that predate historical records? How do astronomers calculate the age of the Universe or detect planetary wobble on a star? How can electrical engineers understand so intimately the interactions between electrons and different types of metals? How do bilogists "count" the number of giant sea squids in the Indian Ocean, or mathematicians calculate the exact surface area of a complex 3-dimensional object, or compress images into fractions of the size without loss of data?

Now Im just rambling, but the point is, they werent stupid, they were probably tenacious, and, like humans can be good at if attempted, they utilized their brains... =)

[Royal Dragon]

I find your question interesting and worthwhile to discuss, but I think you could pose this question to any field of study that has done due diligence in research and innovation...How do geologists know how rocks formed that predate historical records? How do astronomers calculate the age of the Universe or detect planetary wobble on a star? How can electrical engineers understand so intimately the interactions between electrons and different types of metals? How do bilogists "count" the number of giant sea squids in the Indian Ocean, or mathematicians calculate the exact surface area of a complex 3-dimensional object, or compress images into fractions of the size without loss of data?

Reply]
I guess my questioning comes from the fact that a lot of the applications of herbs, and other treatments would require an advanced method of measuring to know it's actual effects, and in turn to know how to apply them (As the effects would determine application, and not being able to measure the effects would mean not knowing how to apply).

So how did a reliable medical system develop, when only crude and superficial measuring abilities existed? It's not like they had the technology to CSI what they were doing.

To answer the questions above, we have advanced technologies, and advanced methods of observation and measurement to give us the facts of what we are studying. They just didn’t have that in ancient times.

[PlumDragon]

I guess my questioning comes from the fact that a lot of the applications of herbs, and other treatments would require an advanced method of measuring to know it's actual effects, and in turn to know how to apply them (As the effects would determine application, and not being able to measure the effects would mean not knowing how to apply).While they did have some form of measurements through thigns liek pulse, perhaps its your mindset: To you, maybe "actual" means biomedical, pharmacological, etc...something intrinsic versus observed--not dipole opposites, but not necessarily coupled either--askew. That is, where we run a blood test and find a disease, they simply noticed that certain herbs made certain thigns go away, so one could return to normal daily life. Turns out there is sometimes a weak sort of mapping with these types of herbs and antibiotics. Did they know that? No, but they could tell what the outcome was...



So how did a reliable medical system develop, when only crude and superficial measuring abilities existed? It's not like they had the technology to CSI what they were doing.To be honest, the system is still a tad crude but it developed in much the same way that anything naturally develops--from the bottom up (please, no computer science jokes =) ). They didnt have the things you speak of, and as a consequence, they developed a system that described the workings of the human body in a bit of an archaic and primitive way. But like anthing else, you get good at what you work at...And they certainly worked at it, and created a system that, despite is some strange verbiage in our western culture, has a great deal of viability today.




To answer the questions above, we have advanced technologies, and advanced methods of observation and measurement to give us the facts of what we are studying. They just didn’t have that in ancient times.Right, but my point is that its all about development. They took what they had, and pounced their brains on it, and came up with a system that was good at explaining thigns without the use of complex medical labs and blood tests and biopsy.

Look at a field that is in its infancy, like artifical intelligence and neural network design (I mention it only because Ive done graduate work in the area). Some of the most powerful and itnricate neural networks on the planet fail to make the same level of capability as simple basic algorithms like Dempster-Schaeffer or Bayesian Classification. Complicated technologically advanced methods dont make something better by default. In the end, its all based around the same set of rules, and often, the simple elegant solution is often the better one...

[lhommedieu]

I believe that the energy points were discovered first, and that the mapping of the ching-luo meridian channel vessels occured later. I say this because regardless of the stimulation technique that is applied to the points, whether that be via a needle, moxa, or pressure, as common examples, the stimulation frequently produces a 'streaming' sensation of energy movement towards other energy points on the same meridian channel line, and sometimes even to other meridian channels via connecting vessels or collateral vessels.


...It's my understanding that meridian theory was initially the basis of point theory, although at some point overlap probably occured, especially after confucius and the desire for ideal models within Chinese society.

From a physiological, kinesiological, and behavioural perspective, points are superfluous. Teach someone proper Qi Gong and life skills, and you'll have effects which, albeit over a longer period of time, equate and/or exceed the results achieved with acupuncture. The Ma Wang Dui texts actually had a greater amount of Qi Gong information than meridian information, which was again greater than point information.

I am willing to split the difference on this one. The point of a "chicken/egg" debate is after all, that one can't really tell which one came first. From the standpoint of practicing Qi Gong I agree that the emphasis is primarily on developing internal connections throuch steady practice and listening to the meridans. But one is often told to listen to certain points (GB 21 to feel Qi start to sink from the upper to lower torso, for example, or Du 4 to facilitate movement from the "waist") - and it is often easier after that to pick up on the meridan connections. Ultimately its another external/internal phenomenon.


The idea of points being developed via bloodletting with "Bian" (Stone needles) has anthropological weight as well, although I'd add Moxa, Cupping and Massage to the initial grouping of external meridian treatments too.

Agreed. Pirog's point was merely that metalurgy was required for acupuncture to advance to a new level wherein acupoints could be accurately and safely needled.


Donald Harper's Book, Early Chinese Medical Literature: The MaWangDui Medical Manuscripts (http://books.google.ca/books?id=RWUCAAAACAAJ&dq=donald+harper+early+chinese+medical+literature) is, although quite scholarly, a valuable read on this subject.

Looks like a great book. Now on my Christmas list.


Doc Stier: Nice images you have there. One thing to note is that Zang Fu association with the meridians happened later in Chinese Medical History. For instance, the Large Intestine Meridian was originally called the "Tooth Meridian," and the Small Intestine Meridian was originally named "The Shoulder Meridian." In Modern Practice, these two meridians are used to treat diseases related with the old names, often more so than disorders of their related Fu.

Yes - great images. I like the first one especially (wish I had one hanging in my office). Re. the "tooth meridian": presumably combinations like LI 4/ST 44 for lower tooth pain have origin here; my teachers taught me to SI 11 as a standard point for releasing the posterior shoulder girdle. But at least a couple points on both merididans still retain internalizing qualities.

Best,

Steve

[Royal Dragon]

Great comments guys!! Keep it up!!

[Xiao3 Meng4]

...Pirog's point was merely that metalurgy was required for acupuncture to advance to a new level wherein acupoints could be accurately and safely needled.

The classic needle metals were gold, copper and silver. TCM teaches us that gold and copper has tonifying properties, whilst silver has dispersing qualities. Historically, gold quickly became more popular than copper because it oxidized less, making the needles more durable and reusable.

What I find interesting is that these three metals were ideally suited for needle making. All three metals were readily available in a native form of relatively high purity. All three have very high malleability, ductility and sectility, meaning they can be pounded into different shape, drawn into wire and cut into slices. As a result, all three were in common usage during the neolithic period.

Does Pirog give an estimated timeframe for the emergence of metal needles? When the Ling Shu was written, there were already 9 different types, so it seems reasonable that they emerged significantly before then - probably in a fairly localized area, though.

[Doc Stier]

The standard equipment today for most professional acupuncturists are pre-sterilized, and often individually packaged, disposable needles made of stainless steel, with either copper, stainless steel, or plastic handles.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/ac/Needles3.jpg

http://www.ib3health.com/products/AcupunctureNeedle/images/needletitle.jpg

http://www.alternative-medicine-works.com/images/acupunctureneedles4d.jpg

These needles are far less costly to manufacture in mass quantities, and are considered energetically 'neutral'. Unlike the classical gold or silver needles, therefore, they may be used to treat both Yin and Yang diseases and illnesses.

Here are some examples of early acupuncture needles, dermal needles, and bleeding lancets:

http://www.itmonline.org/image/bleed1.jpg

http://www.drmanik.com/images/ax43.gif

http://www2.cmu.edu.tw/~cmcshow/3f008c.jpg

http://curriculum.calstatela.edu/courses/hist494a/archae/mchm-t1-aucup.jpg

Virtually every USA State which has established Licensure through a State Board of Acupuncture Examiners, usually falling under the regulatory umbrella of the State's Board of Medical Examiners, requires the use of such needles as a condition of holding a License in good standing. Although some States still allow the use of reusable needles, including those made of gold, silver, and stainless steel, such reusuable needles must be sterilized in an autoclave after each patient use, and a detailed sterilization log must be maintained for inspection by Compliance Officers representing the Board, who make random, unannounced visits to the officies or clinics of Licensed Acupuncturists whom they have been assigned to monitor. The State Approved method of such sterilization is taught as part of the Clean Needle Technique Course required for Licensure.

Doc

[cjurakpt]

at least that's how it seemed with my first sifu, Chan Tai San when he did "da jam" - he hated pre-wrapped, couldn't use them at all, for whatever reason: they would always break/bend on him - anyway, his version of sterilization was something akin to licking the needle before sticking it in - I'm kidding of course, but it's wasn't far off: I used to chase him around with alcohol swabs trying to swipe them at least once before he pin-cushioned someone (he wasn't hanging out a shingle for the general public, just doing dit da on students in the back room once or twice a week - but still!); anyway, I don't know how good he was with that (this was 15+ yrs. ago before I even started PT school), but his plasters that he cooked up from several different powders (one was called Golden Ear Ring - Gam Yee Wan, I think) seemed to be particularly efficacious for bruises and the like (he got so pised once when I cleaned the pot he used - he was like "it's better with the crust inside!"); also, the man's cut poweder was amazing! it totally blew away the Yunnan Paiyao PM stuff - it was like a supe insta-scab;

my current sifu uses gold and slver needles to do "qi needling", basicaly working the points/meridians by contacting the skin, but not inserting (he's classically trained, but not licensed, and since his apprentiship wasn't documented he doesn't get credit for that - so he only needles family and close students); he combines this with a lot of healng teas, broths, dim yuht (dian xue), gwa sa (uses this a lot with kids), tui na (really wild his version - does it on the floor, uses his whole body - hands, elbows, forearms, legs, I've even seen him use his head on someone's abdomen) qi projection & qigong perscription - and a bit of osteopathy he learned from yours truly thrown in (he's gotten a lot of mileage out of the sub-scapularis counterstrain release...); he also does Daoist sacred script healing - dips the brush in water and paints right on your forehead - pretty interesting experience that...

[cjurakpt]

Plum Dragon

I like how you contextualize the issue - it's basically an advanced form of pattern recognition that is based on macro-observation combined with the use of certain mediating systems - in other words, being a complex system, the input to output ratios and pathways are not always straight forward, so what's interesting is how the epistemology utilized helps make up for that; systems like I Ching, Five Phases, etc. are apparantly ones that function on both the direct and indirect levels: there is something intrinsic to them that takes into account / adjusts for the chaotic harmony of complexity, so that the empirical observations in context of those systems can be more reliable (ultimately, the power of any medicinal system lies in predictability: if you have such and such and do nothing about it, you will get better / die; if you take this or that herb, you will get better in a certain amount of time, and if "x" happens along the way, then you need to add / subtract herbs accordingly - it's essentially algorhymic, which implies rpredictability and reproducibility to a point);

my teacher uses the analogy of a car: you turn the wheel to the left and the car goes to the left: very simple; but what is between the steering wheel and the wheels thmselves is tremendously complex - so that's what seems to be the case here...

as for points versus meridians - we have a qigong called Dance of the Meridians - you basically trace the entire meridian system along your own body in combination with certain movements - I don't know how old it is, but it definitely favors the line versus the point, although certain points are emphasized during it that you percuss at various times - it seems to me they are both important to the practice, and to me it's conceivable that both could have developed simultaneously, maybe one favored over another by different schools, but eventually combined due to the greater degree of flexibility it gave the practitioner in terms of approach?

[NJM]

Great comments guys!! Keep it up!!

It has been theorized, Royal Dragon, that in the dawn of human reasoning, information passed in a much more compartmentalized form which was resistant to change. With a near-perfect preservation of learned knowlege, compared with the faulty "telephone effect" of today, learned knowlege (at least that based off of trial and error with only a cause-effect connection), could have been assembled and utilized much more rapidly and consummately than it could if the same techniques were used in science today.

[Doc Stier]

"....it's conceivable that both could have developed simultaneously, maybe one favored over another by different schools, but eventually combined due to the greater degree of flexibility it gave the practitioner in terms of approach?



I tend to agree with this view of probable simultaneous development, dependent upon the area of focus which initially brought attention to the energy meridian vessels and their storage depot points.

For those engaged in addressing the trauma injuries and wounds incidental to battlefield warfare with swords, sabers, spears, and arrows, the specific anatomical location of the injury would naturally be the primary focal 'point' of attention. Therefore, any sequel energetic or physiological phenomenon perceived to be related to the wound or injury, would eventually draw attention to the possible correlation between the location of the wound and the phenomenon which followed, especially after observing the same symptomatic phenomenon repeatedly manifest after wounds to the same anatomical location or 'point'. This would logically become the starting perspective for investigative research and experiementation of such 'points', and would eventually lead to awareness of the meridian lines of energy flow as well, due to the 'streaming' sensations often felt when energy points are stimulated.

For those engaged in the practice of meditation techniques and/or movement patterns performed in conjuction with regulated breath exercises (qi-gong), it seems logical that inital awareness of the energy system would be focused on the lines of energy transport or meridian vessels, due to the various manifestations of energy movement which often result from such practices. It is quite likely that some practitioners would have energy blockages in their meridian vessel system, where the energy movement generated by their meditation and/or qi-gong practices would be impeded from further movement along the meridian pathway. The impeded energy would thus become collected at such 'points' of obstruction in ever increasing volume, eventually drawing attention to the 'points', and to their relationship to the lines of energy streaming felt previously.

So it is certainly not unreasonable to suspect that investigative research begun from opposite parts of the same energy system could end up discovering the same core information, IMO.

Doc

[dougadam]

I would say trial and error. Trial and error then trial and success. For about 10,000 years.

[lhommedieu]

Does Pirog give an estimated timeframe for the emergence of metal needles? When the Ling Shu was written, there were already 10 different types, so it seems reasonable that they emerged significantly before then - probably in a fairly localized area, though.

Pirog's estimation is quite general. After a discussion of the adoption of the 12 meridian system described in Chapter 10 in the Ling Shu, Pirog goes on to describe how, by the Han Dynasty, the meridian system had been altered to reflect social phenomena such as the development of canals and ditches beyond the valley of the Yangtze River.

As a result, the concept of the meridian as a link to the macrocosm was de-emphasized, and the meridians were looped together so that energy could flow back and forth from the outer extremities to the inner body in an almost completely closed circuit (35)

With respect to how the advancement of metallurgy affected the development of acupuncture, Pirog states the following:

But it would be inaccurate to say that main meridians were patterned entirely after archetypes in the external world. There were also practical considerations that influenced the plotting of their courses. As improved metallurgy allowed the creation of fine iron needles, acupuncture treatment underwent a metamorphosis. The earlier blood tapping techniques were gradually overtaken by an entirely new approach to therapy, one that required deeper insertions with thinly gauged needles(35)

It is clear that Pirog is refering not just to deeper insertions, but to lift and thrust manipulations of the needle that result in the obtainment of De Qi, and thus, the manipulation of Qi within the energetically "almost completely closed circuit" described above. He referes specifically to iron needles, so I think that we can assume that he means that iron needles were strong enough to withstand these new technques -and, in fact, gave rise to them.

Given that sophisticated iron casting techniques began to appear during the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476BC), we have an approximate time-stamp for the emmergence of fine iron needles. As you state above, this would mean that they emerged significantly before the the appearance of the Ling Shu - by as much as 500 years by my calculation.

Best,

Steve

[Doc Stier]

"....by the Han Dynasty, the meridian system had been altered to reflect social phenomena such as the development of canals and ditches beyond the valley of the Yangtze River.

As a result, the concept of the meridian as a link to the macrocosm was de-emphasized, and the meridians were looped together so that energy could flow back and forth from the outer extremities to the inner body in an almost completely closed circuit."



I believe that the the Meridian Channels and Extraordinary Vessels have always been linked together in a closed circuit system within generally healthy human and animal bodies, but that the realization of this fact was not initially perceived, and was noticed only later as a result of more frequent and overt streaming movements of the energy produced by the greater conductivity of metal needles. ;)

Doc