WAY OT: Jena-6

[MightyB]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070920/ap_on_re_us/school_fight

Thoughts and Discussion beginning now:


At best- the white students could be charged with racial intimidation- but- if the ACLU were an unbiased organization- then the nooses could be justified as free expression by the white students...

Soooo- here's the Gorilla in the center of the room that everyone's trying to ignore. 6 adult aged people attacked one person with the intent to do bodily harm. It was racially motivated- and yes, technically it was a "hate crime" by the black students. So- the intent of the protest is? I'm trying to figure that one out- because to me, it looks like The Rev. and his gang are trying to justify all black against white crime as ok as long as it's black against white.

What would the response have been if it would have been six white people attacking one black person?


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Thoughts and discussion....?

[bodhitree]

The noose was a stupid thing to do. The students who did that should certainly face disciplinary actions.

That being said the six are being charged with assult. They knocked the kid unconsciouss. That is a very violent crime. If 6 white students attacked a black student could you imagine how Al Sharpton and other civil rights leaders would react? The 6 white students would be charged with hate crimes and hung out to dry. This should be the same, regardless of provocation, last I checked provocation wasn't legal grounds to justify assult. A hate crime is a hate crime regardless of what group is being specifically targeted. But certain "civil rights leaders" seem to think those things don't apply to the African American population.





ALSO (unrelated)

What about the idiot complaining about being tazered for acting like an idiot? If he wasn't jumping and shouting and actually complied it wouldnt have happened. Humans suck, I'm through.

[sanjuro_ronin]

See my sig.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You know, these civil rights activist need to be told that they won...decades ago!!

[bodhitree]

You know, these civil rights activist need to be told that they won...decades ago!!

I'm sure things aren't perfect, and racial discrimination still exists, but these leaders grab onto any issue and screem injustice yet take responsibility for nothing. Here in Pittsburgh, there is this one neighborhood where the Penguins (NHL) are building a new arena. This neighborhood is run down with drugs, violence, etc.. The community groups want the Penguins to ensure them they get a grocery store and neighborhood residents make up a certain percentage of the jobs there.

First of all, grocery stores are a business. Businesses operate for a profit. The reason there has not been a grocery store there for 30 years is because it would not be profitable, and with the drug activity in the area profitablity would be affected by theft and robbery. Second, what ever happened to judging a job candidate by credentials? I've never had an employer say "well you live in this neighborhood, you're hired"

sorry for rant.

[brothernumber9]

The intent of the protest is for unfair charges and penalties for the crimes commited. The six were originally charged with second degree attempted murder and conspiracy to committ murder. The victim went to the hospital, was released with minor injuries, and attended a social event the same evening.
Hardly sounds like the result of a whole group of people who would have been trying to kill some one. As a result all the murder charges save one, who has not been arraigned yet, have been changed to charges like aggravated battery, and conspiracy to commit, which are still felonies and punishable up to over 20yrs in prison.
Underlying in all of this is an air of racial tension pervading the town that was ignited by the noose hanging incident, the proceeding peaceful protest, and the questionable reaction of the DA and some members of the police department.

[bodhitree]

The intent of the protest is for unfair charges and penalties for the crimes commited. The six were originally charged with second degree attempted murder and conspiracy to committ murder. The victim went to the hospital, was released with minor injuries, and attended a social event the same evening.
Hardly sounds like the result of a whole group of people who would have been trying to kill some one. As a result all the murder charges save one, who has not been arraigned yet, have been changed to charges like aggravated battery, and conspiracy to commit, which are still felonies and punishable up to over 20yrs in prison.
Underlying in all of this is an air of racial tension pervading the town that was ignited by the noose hanging incident, the proceeding peaceful protest, and the questionable reaction of the DA and some members of the police department.


The student went to the hospital with multiple facial injuries and was knocked unconscious. That sounds like six people trying to kill someone to me.

And once again the noose hanging thing CANNOT be used to justify assult. It was stupid, wrong, racist, and whatever else you want to call it but legally cannot be used to justify violence. I hope the 6 get the felony convictions they deserve (for the violent crime they committed). Probably not due to the race card.

I ask everyone to immagine, whatever race you are, if someone you love was beaten by 6 individuals because of thier race. What would you want to happen? It shouldn't be a 'black and white' thing. It should be a 'these six individuals assulted someone because of their race' thing.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It shouldn't be a 'black and white' thing. It should be a 'these six individuals assulted someone because of their race' thing.

Reply]
No, it should be "these six individuals assaulted and battered".....end of sentence.

Thier motivation (Because of race) is not relevant. Only that they assaulted, and battered.

[brothernumber9]

It was also alleged that within the weeks prior to the beating, that a black student was beaten by whites at a party. The white victime of the beating by the six, was alleged to have been taunting the black kid that was jumped at the party, and alleged to have thrown out the "N" word a few times.
No one involved in this is as innocent as they would like to seem.
An argument will be made that the violence was racially incited. This does not justify in anyway, any of the violent crime committed, but in conjuction with the defendants' ages, pasts, and affiliation to the incidents leading up to the beating, can mitigate the degree of the charges and the resulting sentences.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that motivation goes only towards premeditation, so unless there is a issues with the charges outside of the actual crime commited, motivation is irrelevant.

[bodhitree]

I think that motivation goes only towards premeditation, so unless there is a issues with the charges outside of the actual crime commited, motivation is irrelevant.


Motivation makes it a 'hate crime' which increases the penalties (depending on the state).

[Tai-Lik]

In my opinion and experience, i think before you make a comment for or against the protest you should be able to answer 2 questions:

1. does the punishment fit the crime? Assuming your familiar with the evidence in this case and the law pertaining to the crimes being charged.

AND

2. Based on the history of racial descrimination in Jena and its' legal system, is it reasonable that the charges against these six boys were racially motivated?

[MasterKiller]

Motivation makes it a 'hate crime' which increases the penalties (depending on the state).

I thought hate crimes were Federal now?

[bodhitree]

I thought hate crimes were Federal now?

you're right, my bad

[Tai-Lik]

you're right, my bad

actually both :)

in maryland CR 10-304

btw, has anyone heard any of the protesters saying that the 6 boys should NOT be held accountable for their actions?

[MightyB]

"1. does the punishment fit the crime? Assuming your familiar with the evidence in this case and the law pertaining to the crimes being charged.

AND

2. Based on the history of racial descrimination in Jena and its' legal system, is it reasonable that the charges against these six boys were racially motivated?"

Those are things that should be looked into- But, I think the failure of Sharpton was not getting involved earlier. The protests should have started with the nooses and the beating should never have taken place- as it stands now- it appears that the protests are wrong, or stand for the wrong thing.

Personally I think that the nooses were tasteless and were intended to be a threat and it could be argued that the nooses were actually a death threat- but- they were just nooses hanging from a tree. A physical beating by six against one is in a totally different ball park. Those six should be prosecuted- maybe not for attempted murder, but they did the crime and that can't be ignored.

[Tai-Lik]

"1. does the punishment fit the crime? Assuming your familiar with the evidence in this case and the law pertaining to the crimes being charged.

AND

2. Based on the history of racial descrimination in Jena and its' legal system, is it reasonable that the charges against these six boys were racially motivated?"

Those are things that should be looked into- But, I think the failure of Sharpton was not getting involved earlier. The protests should have started with the nooses and the beating should never have taken place- as it stands now- it appears that the protests are wrong, or stand for the wrong thing.

Personally I think that the nooses were tasteless and were intended to be a threat and it could be argued that the nooses were actually a death threat- but- they were just nooses hanging from a tree. A physical beating by six against one is in a totally different ball park. Those six should be prosecuted- maybe not for attempted murder, but they did the crime and that can't be ignored.


Mighty B, do you think the charges/punishment fit the crime in this case?

[MightyB]

No- the punishment is too much. Some jail time and probation- but no prison. Kids do stupid things at that age.

The big failure was in not doing something before it escalated to that point. They should've punished the instigators somehow- you know the kids who hung the nooses.

Racism is really tiring.
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It's Sharpton that bugs me.

Look at Sharpton in the days immediately following the Duke Lacrosse scandal. I mean immediately following the accusation- not after the players were exonerated. I personally feel that his organization bullied the DA into making the false charges against the white players. They wouldn't have been satisfied if the DA waited for the facts... Where were the protests in those players favor... why no outcry?

I see him all over this... creating racism is his job, not fighting it. In the end they will be let off.

What message does that send? Black on white crime and racism should not only be tolerated- it's acceptable.

They should have started the protests with the nooses- then I'd respect them.

[Shaolinlueb]

those kids that hung the noose, not so smart.

we had something a couple years ago at a place i worked at. these 2 white guys hung a noose over this white managers desk. she thought it was funny. but the black manager who found it didnt. would i be offended, you bet your ass. i was offended, and if any of you know me, that takes a lot.

there is some stuff you just dont do, hanging nooses is one. should those kids get charged with a crime? yes, what is it? i dont know. should the 6 black kids who kicked the crap out of them get charged? yes, there was no call for that. even though i would want to beat their ass too, there are other ways to solve the problem. its like bruce lee says... er every philospher before him said it too, "drop a pebble in a lake and create a ripple."

[sanjuro_ronin]

No- the punishment is too much. Some jail time and probation- but no prison. Kids do stupid things at that age.


Stupidity is not an excuse and 6 people beating on one doesn't deserve Jail time?
Well then, what does?

[MightyB]

I'm pretty sure I said they deserve jail time- I just think 20 years in prison is too much in this situation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm pretty sure I said they deserve jail time- I just think 20 years in prison is too much in this situation.

Bah, 20 years is nothing, take out bathroom breaks, outdoor time, eating, sleeping, shanking people and getting tea bagged, you're looking at 9 months top !

:D

[Tai-Lik]

i think the protest is motivated by a totality of events including the nooses. i hope that the issue of timing and/or any particular person leading the protest doesn't cause people to lose sight of the main issues, which relate to my first 2 questions.

i'm just suggesting that people should do their homework and respond to this topic based on credible information and not emotions. do you know how many of the boys actually participated in the assault?

lets not forget that the KKK march and participate in protests, which are concealed in parades on a regular basis in this country, so this protest in jena should not offend anyone.

there are white and black people protesting together in Jena and around the nation.

btw, i was deeply sadden about the duke lacross incident and what those players had gone through.

[@PLUGO]

The kids who hung the Nooses got 3 days in school suspension for the "prank"

The Principle's "request" to have them expelled was dismissed the the super-intendant.

What followed was a sort of protest where the colored students all gathered under the white tree (as it was called up until its removal a month or so ago). In response to this protest the local Attorney General appeared flanked by police and claimed he "...could end any of their lives with the stroke of a pen if they continue this foolishness."

Not long after one of the colored students was beaten by a group of whites while attending a local party.

Later a graduate of the High school closely associated with the noose hangers had a confrontation with the student who was beaten drawing a rifle and threatening him with it.

That following week at school, the colored student who was beaten was assisted by friends in delivering a retaliatory beating to one of the colored students.

It seems there was escalating tit-4-tat violence happening right along racial culminating in the arrest of the 6 students. Micheal Bell, 16 years old, was the first student to be tried (as an adult) and was found guilty by an all white jury. It seems there's some question if a jury not consisting of one person of color could be considered a jury of peers. This has been a sticking point amongst other questionable actions on the part of the Attorney General as well as the court appointed public defender.

[Merryprankster]

Actually, in response to the "have they suggested the Jena 6 not be punished," the answer appears to be more or less yes. Many of the protesters were wearing shirts and sporting signs that said "free the Jena 6."

Secondly, while nobody in this may be as "innocent as they seem," these six guys beat the hell out of somebody bad enough that he went to the hospital. Perhaps there was violence before and tit for tat was escalating...but when you send somebody to the hospital, LE kinda notices. It's not about the kids being black. It's about the fact that they sent the guy to the hospital.

Further, they continued to beat him AFTER HE WAS KNOCKED UNCONCIOUS. This wasn't a "fight." It was a beating.

This is assault and battery, and not of the misdemeanor sort. It's clearly felony assault and battery. I can, in fact, see the case for attempted murder, given that they continued to beat him as the first blow apparently knocked him unconcious. I don't know enough about the case to decide that it SHOULD be, but I can see why the prosecutor went after it. At any rate, it's sure as hell jail time, and it should be a significant amount.

As to the nooses.... a question.... as awful and repugnant as they are, is it a crime? You might make a week case for assault, unless there is a specific law against such things. Hate itself is not a crime.... it's an aggravating condition that adds time to a sentence.

Was anybody physically injured, abused or sent to the hospital by the nooses? 3 days suspension for a disgusting display of hatred....hmmm... perhaps the punishment was light, ok....but many people are trying to draw a moral equivalency between that and the beating the victim took. Sorry, but if people can't see the total distinction between the two, then they are beyond help.

Incidentally, a hate crime being federal only matters if they are being tried in a federal court, which they aren't.

On to the rest of it: Perhaps there is something wrong in the legal system there, I don't know. But the Jena 6 sure as **** deserve real jail time on felony assault and battery.

[Tai-Lik]

Actually, in response to the "have they suggested the Jena 6 not be punished," the answer appears to be more or less yes. Many of the protesters were wearing shirts and sporting signs that said "free the Jena 6." - merry prankster

my actual question: "has anyone heard any of the protesters saying that the 6 boys should NOT be held accountable for their actions?"

it was my impression that the shirts referred to freeing them from the unjust incarceration at this time.


Secondly, while nobody in this may be as "innocent as they seem," these six guys beat the hell out of somebody - merry prankster

Who said they are innocent and what role did each boy play in the assualt?


I can, in fact, see the case for attempted murder, given that they continued to beat him as the first blow apparently knocked him unconcious. I don't know enough about the case to decide that it SHOULD be, but I can see why the prosecutor went after it. - merry prankster

your own words "I don't know enough about the case...."


As to the nooses.... a question.... as awful and repugnant as they are, is it a crime? - merry prankster

harassment is a crime depending on other factors.



but many people are trying to draw a moral equivalency between that and the beating the victim took - merry prankster


Which protester tried to draw a moral equivalency between the noose incident and the beating incident? It's about the charges. any boy involved in the assualt
should pay the fair consequences for his actions.

[jow yeroc]

Without question the whole situation is phucked! Racism is a cancer on the
American soul and human condition on a whole. People definitely need to
do homework about the case and not make snap judgements.
Sure maybe for the most part race realtions have gotten better, but let's not
be fooled into thinking that there aren't some nasty, racist, and hateful people
people in all communities. And i'm not one of these brothers who say blacks
can't be racist but i don't think the intention of the arse whippin' was a racist
hate crime. However, considering the history of blacks in the south and the
power of symbolism i do think the hanging of the nooses was racist and the intention was
to instill fear, thereby a threat, and to provoke.
No, i do not condone 6 on 1 if that is what actually happened. but if you come
to my house and try to hang nooses in my tree, me and my whole family are
going to try to beat the brakes off ya! Again, tho, on school(gov't) property
steps should have been taken by authorities to diffuse the situation. There
shouldn't have been a "white" tree that was allowed to be called such in the
first place. Let's not forget, the black students, i feel, tried to do the right
thing by going to the principal to "get permission"(??!!??) to share the tree
and they were told they could. Yeah, people are now caught up in the emotion
but this has been an ongoing thing at this school and community.
If the black students were jewish(which by the way is not a race but a religion,
but i digress) and the white kids hung nazi flags in the tree...? Sure it's
freedom of expression but it's a shhitty and provocative way to express.
If an arab looking guy wore a tshirt with a picture of the towers falling and the
phrase "America deserves it" or something, freedom of expression, right? But
if said arab looking guy walks into a pub or bar in Jena and gets his arse
pulverized would it be considered a hate crime? Someone here asked, what if
the attackers were white and the vic black? Two words for ya...Rodney King.
Yeah he was a douchebag butat the end of the day it's people beating on people.
Can't we all just get along..:rolleyes:
Sorry for the long post.

[The Willow Sword]

We bring it on ourselves as a culture,in this country, that has propagated itself on the subjugation of others and the enslavement of others to further our "progress" as a nation of people(or in this case, WHITE PEOPLE:rolleyes:). It is sad and a travesty to all that is decent and human. Well you could say that it is inherently "HUMAN" for us to do these kinds of things to each other, but i would think that over thousands of years of evolution of our species that we could at least get it through our thick skulls that these kinds of acts are,at its very core,Evil. Religion and spirituality doesnt seem to offer ANY testament to bringing us as a people together, rather it seems to be twisted and utilized in such away that justifies some of the most horrible acts and atrocities known to mankind. The Laws of GOD:rolleyes: seem to not really resonate with anything that is Moral and Just(not in the history of the "SOUTH") yet again another way to twist and manipulate to serve the needs of the few rather than the many. The Laws of Society set in place offer nothing as well. I mean we set these laws in motion, they do nothing to really protect anyone or to disway anyone from doing what motivates them(murder,theft,rape,pederasty,hate etc etc).
The Kharma of the culture of the SOUTH is reaping everything that it has sowed over the last 200 some odd years now. Im not saying that it is justified by any means but it is there and working itself in cases like these.
Are the punishments too severe for these kids who beat up the one kid( i say NO)
Are the Motivations for what these kids have done Racially motivated and a retribution for what has befallen their race of people over the last 400 years and beyond?(Well of course they are)
Has AL sharpton and the rest of the protestors lost sight of what is true and Just?(absolutely YES)
Is racism and hate crimes still going to continue?(they will until we get our heads out of our a$$Es)
Will the Laws of society be jaded and racially prejudiced and unfair?(they always have been)
The actions have consequences, these are the laws set in place, no matter how jaded they might be they ARE set in place to deal with matters like this. Its all we know right now until we can further evolve into something better and eliminate this mindset that race dictates superiority.
So for now, nooses will be hung, people will be beaten, the racial bigotry will go on, protests that do not reflect anything other than the same ole banter will continue,life moves forward,change the channel and watch LOST, cut to commercial, go buy a car,sit there and be apathetic and complacent in the face of what controls you, etc etc etc.

As always, PEACE,TWS

[Merryprankster]

Tai-Lik,

Chill dude.

Good point on the first part - I don't know if any protestors have suggested they not be punished.

The "innocent" comment was in response to somebody else. They had mentioned a pattern of escalating violence. The remark was along the lines that there was a solid, articulable (if not justifiable) reason that the "Jena 6" beat that kid.

I don't know enough about the case to decide if attempted murder is the appropriate charge or conviction. My ONLY point was to demonstrate that I could see why the prosecutor went after the charge. Generally speaking, the defense is trying to get them off, the prosecutor is trying to charge as serious a crime as he/she can and get a conviction and as much jail time as possible. That's the nature of the adversarial justice system. I'll make the same point again - perhaps the prosecution was overreaching. I don't know enough about the case to determine whether or not I believe the charge and the punishment fit the crime. I do believe that it's a clear cut case of felony assault and battery, provided that the initial report of the victim being knocked unconcious and then beaten badly enough afterwards to have to go to a hospital are accurate (which appears to be the case). And of course, different kids in the group could have different levels of involvement, possibly reducing the charges for some.

Doesn't harrassment have to be directed at specific targets? Nooses are a generalized hate statement, possibly protected under free political speech. That was my point. It actually wasn't a rhetorical question.... are the nooses a crime or not?

As to the last part, that WAS rhetorical, and hardly directed at you or anybody else. I may not have been clear enough, but my point can be restated "IF people are drawing moral equivalency between the two things, then they need help, but are probably so cognitively underpowered, the help won't help them."

No attack on you was implied or explicit, although I apologize if it came off that way.

[Tai-Lik]

Thanks bro, it's all good! just alittle bit of the prosecutor in me:)



Tai-Lik,

Chill dude.

Good point on the first part - I don't know if any protestors have suggested they not be punished.

The "innocent" comment was in response to somebody else. They had mentioned a pattern of escalating violence. The remark was along the lines that there was a solid, articulable (if not justifiable) reason that the "Jena 6" beat that kid.

I don't know enough about the case to decide if attempted murder is the appropriate charge or conviction. My ONLY point was to demonstrate that I could see why the prosecutor went after the charge. Generally speaking, the defense is trying to get them off, the prosecutor is trying to charge as serious a crime as he/she can and get a conviction and as much jail time as possible. That's the nature of the adversarial justice system. I'll make the same point again - perhaps the prosecution was overreaching. I don't know enough about the case to determine whether or not I believe the charge and the punishment fit the crime. I do believe that it's a clear cut case of felony assault and battery, provided that the initial report of the victim being knocked unconcious and then beaten badly enough afterwards to have to go to a hospital are accurate (which appears to be the case). And of course, different kids in the group could have different levels of involvement, possibly reducing the charges for some.

Doesn't harrassment have to be directed at specific targets? Nooses are a generalized hate statement, possibly protected under free political speech. That was my point. It actually wasn't a rhetorical question.... are the nooses a crime or not?

As to the last part, that WAS rhetorical, and hardly directed at you or anybody else. I may not have been clear enough, but my point can be restated "IF people are drawing moral equivalency between the two things, then they need help, but are probably so cognitively underpowered, the help won't help them."

No attack on you was implied or explicit, although I apologize if it came off that way.

[MightyB]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070927/ap_on_re_us/jena_six

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[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh Brother...

This sounds like a job for Undercover Brother !