A quick wc question....

[woodendumby]

With just a couple months training in WC, i'm full of Qs...and even though I ask in class when I can, the opinions of others here would be appriciated.

right now i'm just wondering ....what's up with the weird pigeon toed stance ? Honestly I feel like ( in all my great wisdom..lol ) that these techniques would work just as well in a more traditional stance, or at least with the feet pointed forward rather than inward. not to mention that my knee is shot from a bad TKD kick ( in which my pivot foot did'nt pivot ).


any thoughts on this ? thanks guys....

[donbdc]

The character 2 Goat restraing stance is a traing stance and not a fighting stance in our system of wing chun. It trains the body to sinkrelax and connects the upper and lower paerts of the body. After you begin more moving stance work you should see the benefits of traing the YJKYM. "Hands and feet must work together" , is an old proverb and this is wherit begins.
Good Luck
Don

[anerlich]

Not all substyles use the pigeon toed stance. William Cheung's Tradtional Wing Chun and Garrett Gee's Hung Fa Yi use a stance with the feet parallel.

There is debate about how useful these stances really are.

[southernkf]

THose that use the stance do so for various reasons. I have been investigating the usefulness of the stance myself. I can honestly say that currently I can't say that it has befitted me and that I am any more stable in it.

With that said, I don't blame the stance, but my execution of it. I have felt many people that are in the stance and they are very comfortable and stable. The stance it self may not be a fighting stance, depending on your view point, but it defiantly trains the knees if done correctly. That carries over into the other stances like Bik Ma. I think of the stance much like how some people might hold a pencil at the base when writing. It gives stability and flexibility, at least once you are sufficiently able to do it correctly.

The knees and elbows are linked together and play off of each other, atleast in some people wing chun. And the knees need to be inwards to create a certain effect.

One point I would like to make is that if there is pain in the knees caused from any twisting, your doing the stance wrong. You need to be very carefull that your not causing the knee to twist improperly. The knee is a hinged joint and is designed to bend in one direction. Any pain you feel should just be in the muscles and not the joint. Few people have tried the stance and put the wrong pinching or pressing inwards direction which torqued the knees incorrectly. Many of them reported knee problems. I have sensitive knees as do several others I know and they don't report any issues with the stance. In fact, several others have actually noticed stronger and SLIGHTLY healthier knees than before.

That was my long answer. The short answer, I think it is to link the knees and elbows.

[Knifefighter]

any thoughts on this ? thanks guys....

Just another dysfunctional relic.

[couch]

Just another dysfunctional relic.

As a Chinese Medicine Practitioner, I see the relevance to this stance as well as how in Qigong, Tai Chi and shifting on K1 all works together.

It's NOT dysfunctional. It IS a welcomed relic.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik, R.Ac

[jooerduo]

not a fighting stance,
used to cultivate power (if you have been shown properly)

[sihing]

Not a fighting stance, only for training. Each foot turned in represents the back foot of a forward stance, therefore left pigeon toe turned to the right reps the left back foot and visa versa. You also learn where to put your balance, for me that is on the back part of the foot, starting with the heel as the focal point (not to mean that all my weight is back and totally on the heel). You are also learning how to sit(root to the ground) and hip waist mechanics so the spine is straight and connecting the lower and upper parts of the body as one unit. There's lots going on here, that one can easily miss if not instructed or educated from someone qualified. Think of it this way, if you have no foundation or root to stabilize your body while you hit or engage energy/force from somone else, how are you able to handle it when your balance and stability is gone? Of course you wouldn't fight in a static stance, but you practice in the beginning to learn stablility then apply that in movement. Trying to learn stability and mobility at the same time leads to a lack in one or the other. A steady slow progession leads to good rooting to the ground, which is the foundation of everything else you do afterward.

James

[monji112000]

With just a couple months training in WC, i'm full of Qs...and even though I ask in class when I can, the opinions of others here would be appriciated.

right now i'm just wondering ....what's up with the weird pigeon toed stance ? Honestly I feel like ( in all my great wisdom..lol ) that these techniques would work just as well in a more traditional stance, or at least with the feet pointed forward rather than inward. not to mention that my knee is shot from a bad TKD kick ( in which my pivot foot did'nt pivot ).


any thoughts on this ? thanks guys....

everything has reason, if it doesn't.. don't do it.

Static stance training at first has many reasons.. and off topic.

The "pigeon toe" stance has many components that should be explained and then
you should use in training/fighting. (thats the way I would do it)

The toes on turned in to hint at the footwork, triangle stepping ect..
The knees are turned in to help you turn and stabilize the power you are taking or giving. The hips are relaxed, dropped , only very slightly tucked it. (DO not push your hips out too far... thats a bad mistake I did for too long).
The horse in practice is similar to a wrestling stance. They both use allot of th same principles, and so does the sprawl. The big difference is we Turn and thats why we have the toes and the knees tucked in. One more thing, weight distribution.. allot of people go off in a tangent and never really test what they do. take a look at Allan ors stuff on this.. its very good.
depending on whats going on your weight can technically be in different places, but the term on the heels in some ways works for a general description. BUT think about this... you foot is arched so don't try and put all your weight all the way at the back of your heel you will fall over.

Have someone push you and pull you.. you should feel the pressure in your heels and your calf's should get sore. If you feel it anywhere else you are aligned wrong. for example if you feel any pressure in your back.. You have to be honest with yourself, and allot of people do two things... lie to them selves or don't test their stance. Perfect example LT/EB... ok JMO

Most of all it hurts and builds strength , endurance, and its a good test to see how dedicated someone is. Lets just say I could barely walk for two months.

[Knifefighter]

Not a fighting stance, only for training.

And exactly why it is a dysfunctional relic. In the old days, they knew nothing of training specificity. Today we know better.

[sihing]

And exactly why it is a dysfunctional relic. In the old days, they knew nothing of training specificity. Today we know better.

bla bla bla bla bla:):):):)

[Rill]

And exactly why it is a dysfunctional relic. In the old days, they knew nothing of training specificity. Today we know better.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're talking about and would appeciate any clarification.

For the original poster, I've attached some info from an article by Barry Lee on the stance that covers a couple of relevant points. You can find the entire thing at http://www.vingtsun.net.au/BLVTMAA%20The%20Stance.htm.


...
If you cannot hold this toe in stance for long without your feet straightening, then you will not be able to keep your feet in correct position when you step. You will open your centre to attack, you will drag your back foot and your kick will not be spontaneously delivered from any angle at any time either while standing or in motion and most importantly you will often find your waist incorrectly positioned. If you have your back foot turned either out or in incorrectly a kick to the front leg from the right angle will cause both legs to collapse and you will lose you centre in the bargain.

It's an amazing thing but this toe in stance creates a particular tension through the legs, on the most important areas of the waist and back and in the internal muscle groups of the abdominal wall. Without this tension in the ankle you would find it almost impossible to learn and feel the correct tension required for balance and strength throughout your stance.
...

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey woodendumby
My opinion on the toe-in stance is that in the beginning it's useful for training your hips and proper connections. But IMO, you can do it with your feet straight. And alot of guys I see, don't use their toes in at a certain point in their training.

Ok, the thing is that we take all of these 'weird' stances, movements, techniques and learn them as taught to us at first. But at a certain point you have to make them your own, by incorporating them into your natural standing postitions, the way you move normally and see the connections without doing them exactly as taught.

My opinion of ving tsun is that it shows us how to have a solid structure, it tests our reflexes, balance, timing amongst a few other things. Once you learn how to do those things in a set pattern or with specific movements, it's then up to you, to work out how to do it moving as naturally as possible.

That to me is ving tsun

J

[Knifefighter]

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're talking about and would appeciate any clarification.[/URL].

Training specifity is one of the pillars of modern human performance training. It means that you try to train as close to the actual circumstances as possible. In the case of stance and training, that would mean training in the stance in which you fight.

[k gledhill]

With just a couple months training in WC, i'm full of Qs...and even though I ask in class when I can, the opinions of others here would be appriciated.

right now i'm just wondering ....what's up with the weird pigeon toed stance ? Honestly I feel like ( in all my great wisdom..lol ) that these techniques would work just as well in a more traditional stance, or at least with the feet pointed forward rather than inward. not to mention that my knee is shot from a bad TKD kick ( in which my pivot foot did'nt pivot ).


any thoughts on this ? thanks guys....

the lead leg of our stance when fighting is inverted to stabilize the hip ...by turning the toes in you are turning the WHOLE leg inward, locking the hip joint, to support the forces you will both generate and recieve while fighting in motion.

test: try standing one leg forward in a stance , lead toes pointing forwards...have someone lightly push you from the shoulder side to side L<-> R , then turn your toes in and do the same push....if you squat in a SLT stance with your toes out the same instability will occur when recieving force in energy transfer exercises ..dan chisao/ lok sao etc...your structure is being checked to see if the heel is driving force into the arm/elbow and not hinging at the shoulder etc... when you can unify the heel you catch the force of the leg , which BTW you will nevr feel , only the recipient feels this or your coach. All about harnessing the tremendous force of the quads in a fast contraction timed with the strikes , ergo small shifting driving rear heel steps , not step and drag bs....FEEEEEEeeeeeeeel the leg ;)

forget the basic stance it will develop a certain quality but think bull fighter and shifting to get in then having the forces required to deliver a finishing series of blows to the attacker AND have the support to also shock force his arms out of your way as you attack.....all from a inverted toe :cool:

[YungChun]

IMO the stance does a few things and probably more than I know..

1. It introduces/trains body alignment (both sides) from the ground/feet up through all the joints and into the arms..

2. The knees in help protect the groin from attack in this or any other WCK ‘stance’...

3. The feet in can be used for hooking the opponent's feet.

4. The stance trains/introduces 'loading the springs'/compressing the structure/sinking for making power.

NOTE: WCK is not the only classical art that used this kind of odd toe in stance...

IMO the classical system or some of them advocated using a neutral fighting stance when facing off, outside range, something I never really got used to for sport.
The square position is also seen, although it doesn't stay, in close range fighting. When those labeled ‘good WCK folks’ use this ‘stance’ you don’t normally see it done exactly as it is seen in the form, toes in, and instead it’s more loose and natural.

The stances can help start a base for the mechanics that are used in the system, this can be seen more in the chum kiu 'stance' since the stepping mechanics are actually done in the form..

If you ask some people they will even tell you this stance has ‘magic qualities’ that will prevent you from being moved.. :rolleyes::p

In reality no stance in real fighting will remain static—there are no static stances in fighting per se.. This is where some of the problems with stances come into play because people think they’re training to fight as if their feet are glued to the floor/and or are plane spotting...

In an assault situation you never know how you will be standing however, or if you'll be able to move/step at all, and assume a proper fighting posture, etc.. So IMO this basic stance is showing you how to align the body for making power from almost any natural standing position; something you see many good WCK people doing—they don't adopt the exact stance but use the alignment and loading taught in the stance to make power. If you look at Gary Lam or Ip man, they are often doing their thing and using no particular stance, still the core alignment and power is there.

Moreover, this stance converts into the chum kiu stance and back again to change lines/angles align the structure, absorb power, redirect power, make power and so on.. You can see some of the variations demonstrated in Wing Chun the Science of Infighting with WSL—but to see the stance you will need to freeze the video, otherwise you’ll miss it. What’s interesting about ‘stances’ is what happens during the transition, the movement, the mechanics, the changes, of those stances, and then there is no particular ‘stance’.

[Rill]

Training specifity is one of the pillars of modern human performance training. It means that you try to train as close to the actual circumstances as possible. In the case of stance and training, that would mean training in the stance in which you fight.

Ta for that, google is my friend. Mostly I've come across articles on endurance and the effectiveness of training methods in transfer to the targeted activity. One thing in common with the articles concerning movement technique is that they all discuss a dynamic biomechanic, not a static position such as what we're discussing here.

Dynamic footwork training (haha, possibly dynamic by definition) uses combat-aligned feet, with the rear foot pointing straight ahead and the front foot turned inwards - this is active technique training and would satisfy your comments on specificity (as defined from what I've discovered in an hour of reading).

I'm curious to know your thoughts on why the dynamic aspect of specificity training translates directly to training in a static position, and why this is not a directly transferable form of training with applicable results from a pigeon-toe to straight-foot. Also, any thoughts you had on why the increased range of movement from turning the foot in and the associated muscular gains in flexibility and strength would not be worth it. If someone trains footwork such as basic stepping using specificity is it still allowable to do pigeon-toed training, or must an entire training regime conform to specificity? I've exhausted the articles on the first few pages of google for various searches on this, so any online articles you have that you could link would be appreciated :).

[couch]

Hey woodendumby
My opinion on the toe-in stance is that in the beginning it's useful for training your hips and proper connections. But IMO, you can do it with your feet straight. And alot of guys I see, don't use their toes in at a certain point in their training.

Ok, the thing is that we take all of these 'weird' stances, movements, techniques and learn them as taught to us at first. But at a certain point you have to make them your own, by incorporating them into your natural standing postitions, the way you move normally and see the connections without doing them exactly as taught.

My opinion of ving tsun is that it shows us how to have a solid structure, it tests our reflexes, balance, timing amongst a few other things. Once you learn how to do those things in a set pattern or with specific movements, it's then up to you, to work out how to do it moving as naturally as possible.

That to me is ving tsun

J

Very well said - You learn the WC in the beginning, you control it in the end.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[jooerduo]

"
2. The knees in help protect the groin from attack in this or any other WCK ‘stance’...

"


I doubt it. Have you tried to clamp your knee in and have your partner kick your groin? It doesn't work. I'd like to see a demo if its on youtube or anywhere else.

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you just stand there all knock kneed you can not withstand a kick to the groin. It just sounds so silly to think otherwise. With the toe in stance, you also have to have your knees bent and hips forward. All you have to do is shift sightly and even though a kick may land solidly it will not be a groin shot. It isn't about not getting hit or kicked, but about damage control. You can not expect to fight without receiving some punishment. The trick is to minimumize the damage and survive. The pigeon toes stance is the most natural stance you can take. If it hurts you are doing it all wrong. It has to be comfortable or you will abandon it as soon as the fight starts. By shifting the weight to the rear foot as you shift side to side it will require less foot movement, and will maintain your balance and stability.
If you give it some serious thought you will realize that There is good reason for this pigeon toed stance. It is not just for training. Why would it be so? It is an honest fighting stance that was developed from trial and error.

[jet64]

With just a couple months training in WC, i'm full of Qs...and even though I ask in class when I can, the opinions of others here would be appriciated.

right now i'm just wondering ....what's up with the weird pigeon toed stance ? Honestly I feel like ( in all my great wisdom..lol ) that these techniques would work just as well in a more traditional stance, or at least with the feet pointed forward rather than inward. not to mention that my knee is shot from a bad TKD kick ( in which my pivot foot did'nt pivot ).


any thoughts on this ? thanks guys....

to answer you directly, that stance was use to keep your balance if you're standing on a narrow boat. thats where the ancient WC practice their drills during their travel from northern china going south.

[jet64]

If you just stand there all knock kneed you can not withstand a kick to the groin. It just sounds so silly to think otherwise. With the toe in stance, you also have to have your knees bent and hips forward. All you have to do is shift sightly and even though a kick may land solidly it will not be a groin shot. It isn't about not getting hit or kicked, but about damage control. You can not expect to fight without receiving some punishment. The trick is to minimumize the damage and survive. The pigeon toes stance is the most natural stance you can take. If it hurts you are doing it all wrong. It has to be comfortable or you will abandon it as soon as the fight starts. By shifting the weight to the rear foot as you shift side to side it will require less foot movement, and will maintain your balance and stability.
If you give it some serious thought you will realize that There is good reason for this pigeon toed stance. It is not just for training. Why would it be so? It is an honest fighting stance that was developed from trial and error.


you're right, but its not use for actual fighting, just for practising basic arm drills.

its only for beginners in WC.

[Liddel]

Certain types of eqipment at the gym lock off parts of your body to isolate others parts for training. Some Bicep curl eqipment comes to mind....

IMO YGKYM serves this very purpose for beginners. The stance locks you in one direction and isolates the upper body for training the actions contained in SLT.

You tend to be all arms - for a reason !

With good instruction you should develope good energy in the shoulder elbow and wrist as well as the obvious muscle groups which then later, when added to a dynamic horse with turning and stepping... increases your base power for actions.

Its very much for newbie's.

DREW