PDA

View Full Version : Real Gung Fu vs. "the shoot"



Satori Science
09-20-2007, 05:47 PM
This vid is awsome, from Black Taoist a Yin style bagua Sifu in NYC with Sharif Bey of the Hung Gar style and Sifu Ben Hill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2RvflWcEqQ

street_fighter
09-20-2007, 06:07 PM
ah. its back up. http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47922

nospam
09-20-2007, 07:14 PM
Well, goes to show we all have our ways to stop them nasty shooters. Personally I am biting, yanking, tearing and twisting my way all the way down. :eek: with the odd flaming chi ball for good measure!



nospam
:cool:

Fire Dragon
09-20-2007, 07:15 PM
In Taiji the "solution" to the sprawl is the movement An. Neutralize the shoot with the waist and then press down.

As was pointed out in the other thread on this issue the incoming force has to be dealt with first.

FD

Pork Chop
09-20-2007, 07:26 PM
i'm sorry but that's the 3rd bad "defend the shoot" video i've seen from bt and the boys.
The rest of their videos are some of the best out there for decent apps; but they really need to get someone knowing what their doing on the shoot.

The multitude of problems with that fake shot are what'd keep it from working anywhere, let alone against "capable kung fu guys". I know you're not necessarily condoning these vids, but I figure I'll list out the problems anyway.

First - the shot's from a mile out. of course it's going to be defended. like ninja's shot on Robbie Lawler- it just ain't gonna work on someone with eyes.

Second - absolutely no set up... nothing to get the hands up, nothing to distract & bring the attention up... nothing

Third - no level drop. Like David said on the other thread: good grapplers come up underneath you. He's not going to be bent at the waist, with his center of gravity all the way back; his center of gravity's going to be pinned right up against that leg & able to lift dude's bodyweight much easier.

Fourth - no penetration step. A good shot won't just go to your leg- it'll be aimed a few feet past you. Kinda in line with dropping level, but worth its own bullet.

Fifth - no chain... usually if the shot doesn't get good enough position for the lift, they'll readjust the angle and collapse the leg- this is why you don't want to let them touch your front leg while it's bent.

I ain't even a good wrestler; but these 5 things being absent make the whole thing unrealistic to me.

I know BT's got on his fav' videos some iranian judo/grappling guy who does the pa bu style shot defense.

Maybe an actual wrestler or judoka could chime in on how it can be pulled off, i just don't see it. If the shooter's got his feet under him, hoisting someone's full bodyweight shouldn't be a huge deal.

What's so wrong with using a sprawl? I don't get it.

Shaolinlueb
09-20-2007, 08:50 PM
i'm sorry but that's the 3rd bad "defend the shoot" video i've seen from bt and the boys.
The rest of their videos are some of the best out there for decent apps; but they really need to get someone knowing what their doing on the shoot.

The multitude of problems with that fake shot are what'd keep it from working anywhere, let alone against "capable kung fu guys". I know you're not necessarily condoning these vids, but I figure I'll list out the problems anyway.

First - the shot's from a mile out. of course it's going to be defended. like ninja's shot on Robbie Lawler- it just ain't gonna work on someone with eyes.

Second - absolutely no set up... nothing to get the hands up, nothing to distract & bring the attention up... nothing

Third - no level drop. Like David said on the other thread: good grapplers come up underneath you. He's not going to be bent at the waist, with his center of gravity all the way back; his center of gravity's going to be pinned right up against that leg & able to lift dude's bodyweight much easier.

Fourth - no penetration step. A good shot won't just go to your leg- it'll be aimed a few feet past you. Kinda in line with dropping level, but worth its own bullet.

Fifth - no chain... usually if the shot doesn't get good enough position for the lift, they'll readjust the angle and collapse the leg- this is why you don't want to let them touch your front leg while it's bent.

I ain't even a good wrestler; but these 5 things being absent make the whole thing unrealistic to me.

I know BT's got on his fav' videos some iranian judo/grappling guy who does the pa bu style shot defense.

Maybe an actual wrestler or judoka could chime in on how it can be pulled off, i just don't see it. If the shooter's got his feet under him, hoisting someone's full bodyweight shouldn't be a huge deal.

What's so wrong with using a sprawl? I don't get it.

wow dude thats the most i think you ever typed.

Anthony_ATT
09-20-2007, 09:20 PM
Pork Chop called it correctly.

It's not called a shoot.

It's called a shot.

As for the techniques, try them on real wrestlers.

monji112000
09-20-2007, 09:57 PM
This vid is awsome, from Black Taoist a Yin style bagua Sifu in NYC with Sharif Bey of the Hung Gar style and Sifu Ben Hill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2RvflWcEqQ

heres are real question whats wrong with a sprawl? Is it becouse its not a "cma" technique? If the answer is yes.. thats 1) racist 2) stupid If you can pickup a basic technique that works I don't care if its KARATE.

and just to drive the point in the normal sprawl uses the same principles found in some CMA, its just using them differently.

by the way the guy would have been slammed...

dealing with the single or double and dealing with a bear hug or a hip type shoot can be different. Its all about height, speed, timing, distance ect.. JO smo at the bar and MR. SUB fighter are not going to come at you the same way.

anyway BT is a joke... honestly stop watching all the old Kung Fu movies! Wu-tan vrs Shoalin isn't real.

PM
09-20-2007, 10:14 PM
Pork Chop: practicing TCMA (Hung Kyun) and having many MMA friends i occasionaly train with, all i can say: bravo, excellent post!

Ben Gash
09-21-2007, 01:47 AM
OK, the takedown is wrong on many levels, if he'd just watched a couple of MMA instructionals he'd be able to tell that. He's then exposed for a ****zer. His weight ISN'T on top of his attacker sufficiently to stop him from driving through with a double leg, and again he shows that he doesn't really understand sprawling.
There is NO WAY that he can successfully execute an arm in guillotine like that on a live opponent.
If you don't like sprawling or want something that's more "Kung Fu" then post or use an over/under hook defence :rolleyes:

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 05:19 AM
The problem with the sprawl for kung fu is that it puts you in a position where you cannot transition into your other kung fu techniques. BT is correct in that "the root" or connection to the ground is very important in kung fu. How are you rooted in a sprawl? You're not, you're resting your weight on your opponent to drive them into the ground.

I find it hard to believe that kung fu has no indigenous defense against the shoot. There weren't any wrestlers in china when kung fu was being shaped? Furthermore, tackling someone at the waist is a natural, instinctual move that non-martial artists use. So kung fu masters of old never encountered it? Hard to believe.

FD

sanjuro_ronin
09-21-2007, 05:38 AM
I incorporated the sprawl with no problem whatsoever, its one of the easiest defenses for a take down.
Rooting is fine, but there is static rooting and dynamic rooting.

Ben Gash
09-21-2007, 05:41 AM
a true sprawl should drive your hips into your opponent, just dropping your chest down onto them is sloppy and easier to counter. With your hips engaged it's fairly easy to transition to Sieh Ma or Lok Gwei Ma (a lot of Japanese based fighters are very good at this).

jow yeroc
09-21-2007, 06:11 AM
For the most part i think Sharif sifu and BT showed viable technique. Yes it
would be ideal to show it real time against a wrestler or whatever but to say
the technique won't work for anyone is not necessarily true. Fight the fighter
not the style. If someone diligently practiced a technique it could work for
that person i believe. Sure it may not work for everyone who tried it against
everytime someone shot but IMO i think the techniques for the most part
could work. i do think someone like Sharif could pull off the tech's he was
demonstrating.
I do tho agree that the shot was lackluster and ineffective and the guy
prolly had no grapple skill, but it seemed like a pretty casual and off the cuff
demonstration.
And of course "just sprawl" works but why not have other weapons in the
arsenal IF you can make them work? Just my humble opinion.

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 06:31 AM
The problem with the sprawl for kung fu is that it puts you in a position where you cannot transition into your other kung fu techniques. BT is correct in that "the root" or connection to the ground is very important in kung fu. How are you rooted in a sprawl? You're not, you're resting your weight on your opponent to drive them into the ground.

I find it hard to believe that kung fu has no indigenous defense against the shoot. There weren't any wrestlers in china when kung fu was being shaped? Furthermore, tackling someone at the waist is a natural, instinctual move that non-martial artists use. So kung fu masters of old never encountered it? Hard to believe.

FD

A shot is not a waist tackle. It's a level change aimed at controlling the legs and hips. Proper stucture (keeping the back straight, not bent like in this video) is a key point as wrestlers do not tackle you, they use the penetrating step to off-balance you and then pick you up for a slam, most of the time.

CMA doesn't have this particular technique because it involves dropping your knee to the ground and breaking your root.

sanjuro_ronin
09-21-2007, 07:04 AM
I can stop anything thrown at me, as long as I know what's coming...

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 07:10 AM
A shot is not a waist tackle. It's a level change aimed at controlling the legs and hips. Proper stucture (keeping the back straight, not bent like in this video) is a key point as wrestlers do not tackle you, they use the penetrating step to off-balance you and then pick you up for a slam, most of the time.

So just to be clear they are not driving forward, as in a tackle?

If so, then let's distinguish between a shoot and a tackle. How would you define them?



CMA doesn't have this particular technique because it involves dropping your knee to the ground and breaking your root.

Agreed. My previous point was that if you look at any of the 100s of CMA styles they probably all have something that is designed to deal with a shoot.

FD

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 07:12 AM
a true sprawl should drive your hips into your opponent, just dropping your chest down onto them is sloppy and easier to counter. With your hips engaged it's fairly easy to transition to Sieh Ma or Lok Gwei Ma (a lot of Japanese based fighters are very good at this).

A true sprawl has your legs behind you and your weight forward. How could you possibly drive your hips into your opponent when they are moving backwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyhAm8o_Tmo

FD

sanjuro_ronin
09-21-2007, 07:25 AM
A true sprawl has your legs behind you and your weight forward. How could you possibly drive your hips into your opponent when they are moving backwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyhAm8o_Tmo

FD

Keep looking and you will find what he is talking about.

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 07:28 AM
Keep looking and you will find what he is talking about.

So you're saying that video of Chuck Lidell is not a sprawl?

FD

lkfmdc
09-21-2007, 07:35 AM
So you're saying that I am completely clueless, have no fighting ability and have no idea what I am talking about?




there, fixed it for you. Go and do some tai chi or whatever the heck you are doing these days, leave the fighting discussion to the adults

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 07:36 AM
lkfmdc
This message is hidden because lkfmdc is on your ignore list.

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 07:44 AM
This is a double-leg shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8G8wvZPrBk

This is a spawl and shoot drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKI1nBkNE6A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0TzMrSxrQY

lkfmdc
09-21-2007, 07:44 AM
pow-dexter, fire-dud, ilikasshol, he's had so many names but no matter what Erik Olson is an idiot... he's trembling as he types "look, I'm ignoring you"... pretty much everyone who has any sense should just ignore him

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 07:50 AM
A true sprawl has your legs behind you and your weight forward. How could you possibly drive your hips into your opponent when they are moving backwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyhAm8o_Tmo

FD

When you sprawl, it's because the opponent is penetrating into you, not moving backwards. You push with your hips to drive them into the ground.

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 07:54 AM
More shots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQFfXOqqW_g

bawang
09-21-2007, 08:37 AM
When I was back visiting my town in China, people at the cultural center told me practice "sink". it's confusing, bugt i'll try to explain. they showed pulling your legs up into the air very very fast, so you make a mabu in the air. then you drop down hard to the ground.
when you jump in the air and come back down you bend your legs and cushion your fall , the ground makes no noise, if you jump and come down with legs stiff your get a shake go up your body and the ground makes a big noise.
it works if you do it fast, most western CMA peopel go down into stance very slow, like they are squatting to take a **** on a chinese public toilet.

sorry what i was trying to say is i respect blacktaoist and i like his videos, but this video's takedown defence, he taught it wrong and he doesn't have root. some tecniques i saw from zhaoyangquan, but i don't think he really understands or ever used them.

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 08:39 AM
When you sprawl, it's because the opponent is penetrating into you, not moving backwards. You push with your hips to drive them into the ground.

You're not reading that right....I meant when the hips and legs move backwards to avoid being grabbed.

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 08:44 AM
You're not reading that right....I meant when the hips and legs move backwards to avoid being grabbed.

Watch those clips. The hips do not move back, just the legs. You may get driven back by the opponents momentum, but your hips should just drop straight down.

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 08:45 AM
This is a double-leg shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8G8wvZPrBk

This is a spawl and shoot drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKI1nBkNE6A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0TzMrSxrQY

So a tackle has the torso more horizontal and in the shoot it is more perpendicular. One is driving forward the other is more to get in range to grab for takedowns. Correct?

In my mind the transition between the sprawl and other CMA positions is not resolved. In addition, the sprawl is weighted so far forward that the root can't be maintained as you move into that position.

This is saying nothing about the efficacy of the sprawl but only its incompatibility with CMA. My original premise is that there are CMA ways of dealing with the sprawl that is more compatible with the general principles. The strategy of course would vary amongst styles.

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 08:50 AM
Watch those clips. The hips do not move back, just the legs. You may get driven back by the opponents momentum, but your hips should just drop straight down.

The lower part of the hip rotates back with the leg. Can I be any more clear? My original point in bringing this up is that the hips don't "drive" anything forward when you sprawl. If anything they are neutralizing the force and moving it downward. There must be a way to do this without giving up your root and dropping knees to the ground.

FD

bawang
09-21-2007, 08:50 AM
what's wrong with sprawl? there's nothing wrong with losing your root. have you actually wrestled fire dragon?

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 08:50 AM
So a tackle has the torso more horizontal and in the shoot it is more perpendicular. One is driving forward the other is more to get in range to grab for takedowns. Correct? Shots drive foward also. You step through the opponent, forcing him off-balance.



In my mind the transition between the sprawl and other CMA positions is not resolved. In addition, the sprawl is weighted so far forward that the root can't be maintained as you move into that position. Right, you give up root to sprawl. But you can regain it quickly ala the sprawl to shoot video I posted.


This is saying nothing about the efficacy of the sprawl but only its incompatibility with CMA. I agree.


My original premise is that there are CMA ways of dealing with the sprawl that is more compatible with the general principles. The strategy of course would vary amongst styles. CMA does have defenses, but the sprawl is more effective, ime. Mostly because of a wrestlers ability to take secondary and tertiary shots after the initial miss.

sanjuro_ronin
09-21-2007, 08:52 AM
One thing about "rooting", you don't give it up when you sprawl as much as you change it so that the opponent is "part" of your root.

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 08:55 AM
The lower part of the hip rotates back with the leg. Can I be any more clear? My original point in bringing this up is that the hips don't "drive" anything forward when you sprawl. If anything they are neutralizing the force and moving it downward. There must be a way to do this without giving up your root and dropping knees to the ground.

FD

You are mixing the shot and sprawl together, I think.

When you sprawl, your knees do not touch the ground. You stay on your toes and use your hips to force the opponent down.

When you shoot, you drop to one knee and uproot the opponent by forcing them back and then turning the corner for the throw/takedown/lift.

The sprawl is not the only defense to the shot. You can crossface the guy taking the shot, and you can use overhooks/underhooks to control his upperbody to dissipate the shot also.

But the sprawl is the safest way.

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 08:55 AM
One thing about "rooting", you don't give it up when you sprawl as much as you change it so that the opponent is "part" of your root.

Root is a tricky term, I think it can mean different things to people. I'm talking about a pretty narrowly defined thing.

If you are leaning on something IMO you aren't really rooted. In Taiji we talk about Zhong Ding (Central Equilibrium), it doesn't mean that you have to be straight up and down but you can't be leaning on something else for support.


FD

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 08:57 AM
You are mixing the shot and sprawl together, I think.

When you sprawl, your knees do not touch the ground. You stay on your toes and use your hips to force the opponent down.

When you shoot, you drop to one knee and uproot the opponent by forcing them back and then turning the corner for the throw/takedown/lift.

No, I'm not confusing them. Look at the video I posted of Chuck Lidell sprawling, his knees are clearly on the floor.

And by "shot" you mean shoot, right?

FD

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 09:00 AM
No, I'm not confusing them. Look at the video I posted of Chuck Lidell sprawling, his knees are clearly on the floor.

That is not a textbook sprawl.



And by "shot" you mean shoot, right?


Yes.

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 09:06 AM
This is a sprawl:

http://www.budoseek.net/articles/double_leg/image007.jpg

unkokusai
09-21-2007, 09:10 AM
When you sprawl, your knees do not touch the ground. You stay on your toes and use your hips to force the opponent down..


The knees may very well end up on the ground. It depends on the situation.

unkokusai
09-21-2007, 09:11 AM
The sprawl is not the only defense to the shot. You can crossface the guy taking the shot, and you can use overhooks/underhooks to control his upperbody to dissipate the shot also..



Which are very often done in conjunction with a sprawl.

unkokusai
09-21-2007, 09:12 AM
And by "shot" you mean shoot, right?

FD

Shot! "shoot" is an f-ing verb! :mad:

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 09:12 AM
The knees may very well end up on the ground. It depends on the situation.

I know, and it depends on the type of sprawl you do too (both legs or lead leg hip down). But generally speaking, when people say sprawl, I think they are referring to this position:

http://www.budoseek.net/articles/dou...g/image007.jpg

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 09:13 AM
Shot! "shoot" is an f-ing verb! :mad:

Maybe we should just call it a drop-step.

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 09:41 AM
I know, and it depends on the type of sprawl you do too (both legs or lead leg hip down). But generally speaking, when people say sprawl, I think they are referring to this position:

http://www.budoseek.net/articles/dou...g/image007.jpg

Your link doesn't work.

Unkokusai- you often here people say "the shoot."

Question! (in the voice of Dwight Shrute):

Is it possible to avoid the shoot by stepping back into a bow stance and pressing down? I can think of a few instances of that technique in the CLF forms that I used to practice.

FD

MasterKiller
09-21-2007, 09:46 AM
Your link doesn't work.



See attached pic.



Is it possible to avoid the shot by stepping back into a bow stance and pressing down? I can think of a few instances of that technique in the CLF forms that I used to practice. It can work. That's my styles answer to the shoot as well. However, because a wrestler can then reposition and re-shoot again and again, it doesn't work as well as sprawling to control the body.

Dragonzbane76
09-21-2007, 09:55 AM
I'm kinda sceptical about how this guy is performing a defense. I agree with most said about how he was wrong in defending and the proper text book shot.

http://video.google.com/url?docid=3068565276314215757&esrc=sr4&ev=v&len=17&q=wrestling%2Bdrills&srcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D KpW73GDOpU0&vidurl=%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D3068565276314215757% 26q%3Dwrestling%2Bdrills%26total%3D104%26start%3D0 %26num%3D10%26so%3D0%26type%3Dsearch%26plindex%3D3&usg=AL29H21lI4rmGkHG-AGOeCzmKKwG1IQgFg

on a proper shot a lot of times it all about the drive behind it. Defending and dropping your center is fine but you have to compensate for the momentum gained from the attacking person (the person doing the shot)

Watch the vid... the guy is dropping his knee and driving forwards with his knee. To me the sprawl is the definitive for defense against a good wrestler. if you don't get your legs out of there then your going down... it doesn't take much.

sanjuro_ronin
09-21-2007, 09:59 AM
Is it possible to avoid the shot by stepping back into a bow stance and pressing down? I can think of a few instances of that technique in the CLF forms that I used to practice.

If you leave your front leg close to the "shooter", as most do when trying that, it will be a viable target for him.
The Sprawl keeps BOTH legs away.

unkokusai
09-21-2007, 10:11 AM
Unkokusai- you often here people say "the shoot."



You "hear" people say a lot of things.

unkokusai
09-21-2007, 10:13 AM
Is it possible to avoid the shoot by stepping back into a bow stance and pressing down? I can think of a few instances of that technique in the CLF forms that I used to practice.

FD



Unlikely in any case, but if it turns out he's shooting a single instead of a double you've all but given it to him.

JGTevo
09-21-2007, 11:38 AM
How can you teach a video on defense against the shoot if you don't have any actual shoot happen in the video!

Anyone can defend against something coming at them slowly... wtf... Lets see it work in action.

Pork Chop
09-21-2007, 12:01 PM
Unlikely in any case, but if it turns out he's shooting a single instead of a double you've all but given it to him.

Even if it starts out as a double, it doesn't seem that hard to transition to what's available.


of course none of my comments will be seen anyway as i've graduated to the A-List. :D


EDIT: PS- VERY nice vids MK!!!

Fire Dragon
09-21-2007, 02:06 PM
How can you teach a video on defense against the shoot if you don't have any actual shoot happen in the video!

Anyone can defend against something coming at them slowly... wtf... Lets see it work in action.

That was my initial reaction as well. Whether its a shoot or a tackle lets see it with something behind it.

FD

Knifefighter
09-22-2007, 07:22 AM
I know, and it depends on the type of sprawl you do too (both legs or lead leg hip down). But generally speaking, when people say sprawl, I think they are referring to this position:

http://www.budoseek.net/articles/dou...g/image007.jpg

That's not exactly a textbook sprawl, as the arms are just hanging there. Hand/arm placement is just as important as the sprawl and should be used for hip/head/shoulder control. With the hands out like in that pic, the takedown can pretty easily be followed up and finished.

Knifefighter
09-22-2007, 07:27 AM
In all fairness, the sloppy, bent at the waist tackle is probably the most prevalent takedown attempt that will be encountered outside of wrestling. Even experienced wrestlers revert to this when faced with the adrenaline rush of a real fight... and this is the main type of takedown done by most BJJ guys who don't have a significant wrestling background.

That being said, the takedown defense shown on that video wouldn't even work against most sloppy tackle attempts if the guy is working it.

The best way to stop a shoot and maintain your structure without having to sprawl is to never commit to moving forward and maintain back/lateral movement at all times.

Fire Dragon
09-22-2007, 08:30 AM
The best way to stop a shoot and maintain your structure without having to sprawl is to never commit to moving forward and maintain back/lateral movement at all times.

But won't you eventually get "caught" seeing as people can typically move forward much faster than backward, to say nothing of the issue of balance.

FD

Knifefighter
09-22-2007, 10:31 AM
But won't you eventually get "caught" seeing as people can typically move forward much faster than backward, to say nothing of the issue of balance.

FD

Not if you are halfway decent at it. It's hell trying to take someone down who does this. In wrestling it is called stalling and you will get cautioned by the ref for it.

The only real concern with getting caught is if you get put against a barrier and can no longer use the lateral/backwards movement.

BTW, you can actually move faster backward and maintain your structural integrity than you can going forward... and once structural integrity is lost, strikes and/or takedowns become relatively ineffective. That's a major reason why a boxer who is trying to chase down a more defensive fighter can't just run at him... his punches will have no power and he will leave himself open to getting caught.

wiz cool c
09-24-2007, 03:11 AM
these guys like to fight so much why don't they just have a match with a bjj or wrestler and lets see it.

MasterKiller
09-24-2007, 07:50 AM
That's not exactly a textbook sprawl, as the arms are just hanging there. Hand/arm placement is just as important as the sprawl and should be used for hip/head/shoulder control. With the hands out like in that pic, the takedown can pretty easily be followed up and finished.

It was the only pic I could find. :(

WinterPalm
09-24-2007, 01:03 PM
As to the issue of root, doesn't CLF have ground techniques? Even some sort of joint locks and submissions that utilize the ground as a point of leverage?
What about when you end up on your back? You don't exactly have root but you fight from there and regain your position.
I don't think there is anything wrong with sprawling...it is an effective technique but can lead to further tieups if the person reverses, but it is a great thing to resort to if you are caught off guard and it at least offers you some protection and a chance to break the position and regain one you are more comfortable with.