Is a martial art more lethal when the deadly techniques are removed?

[Boulder Student]

I've been reading BJJ - Theory and Technique by Royler and Renzo Gracie, Kid Peligro, and John Danaher. I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in BJJ. My ground game has been helped immensely by the excellent explanations of different techniques. The section on theory has helped me focus my training.

One of the coolest passages in the theory section is called "The Paradox of Randori" They pay homage to Jigoro Kano and Maeda in this section also.

"The practice of removing the dangerous elements of a martial art so students can train harder might strike the reader as strange. After all, wouldn't a martial art be more deadly and effective if students were taught and practiced the really dangerous, painful moves such as those used in classical jui-jitsu? Does it not weaken a martial art to remove such techniques? Herein lies the true innovative genius of Jigoro Kano. Counterintuitive as it might seem, Kano saw that a martial art can be made more effective by the removal of "dangerous" elements so that students can train at full power on resisting opponents with the techniques that remain.........There is something paradoxical about the idea of a martial art being made more combat effective by the removal of dangerous techniques. Kano saw that a fighter who constantly trained at full power on a resisting opponent in live combat with "safe" techniques would be more combat effective than a fighter who always trained with "deadly" techniques on a cooperating partner with no power. We should note immediately that "safe" technique does not mean "ineffective." The "safe" techniques that Kano retained were"safe" only in the sense that they can be used safely in live training so long as students agree to stop when they have been successfully applied. In a street fight they could be used to snap a man's elbow or strangle him until unconscious. Training in this fashion represented a massive advance in the history of grappling."

I say it was a leap forward for martial arts in general. If you look at MMA success, the folks that kick ass have done this, i.e. kickboxing, wrestling, sambo, the chute boxers. I think the same would hold true in the street.

[This message was edited by Boulder Student on 10-25-01 at 02:20 PM.]

[rogue]

Gotta get that book. I have found this to be true also. The moves that I trained in JJJ were simple and "safe" and they're the same ones that I used on the street.

I believe the Gracies are the most important influence on the martial arts in the last 30 years.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban who right about now is getting jiggy with his first of 70 virgins.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.” Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his mobile line right before rushing a hijacker.

[Badger]

I agree.Check this out as well:
THE SPORTING LIFE:

BOXING, WRESTLING, AND JUDO FOR STREETFIGHTING

by Ned Beaumont


If you want to train for a streetfight, then start with a sport.

How’s that?

A sport? Isn’t the Hand-to-Hand Gospel Accord–ing to Beaumont exactly the opposite of every mar–tial arts “master” and self-defense
“expert”? After all, Kapitan Karate, 19th Dan from Bugs Bunny’s Bushido Bund — or whoever insists that his “art,” “style,” or “system”
alone is the key to street sur–vival — says that sports may make you an athlete but not a fighter. What you need is an “art,” a “way,” some
“style.” Isn’t it?

Well, quite frankly, no.

Contrary to the impression some readers of my books have developed, I do, in fact, respect most martial arts — if not necessarily most
martial artists. “Style is bull****!” remains the best advice about martial arts I have ever received, and so I’m always suspicious of any “style”
that claims to be the best for everyone. Every “style” of unarmed combat is necessarily incomplete; but each style can work in the real world if
the man (or woman!) in the fight is tough, determined, and fit. In my experience, boxers and wrestlers more often demonstrate those quali–ties
than do martial artists. Of course, I have met karatekas, akidoists, kung-fu men and others who could kick my ass (that’s not saying a whole
lot) or give any wrestler or boxer a hard battle. For the modern American who needs to know how to han–dle himself in a streetfight, though, I
do not think that karate and other Asian arts prepare him as well as sports for the real thing.

The Mistakes of Modern Martial Arts

Why not?

Let’s start with the real keys to survival on the street — mental and physical toughness. Martial arts, as commonly practiced in these
United States, develop neither quality very well. The legendary “masters” of long-ago China could beat the tar out of their enemies less
because of some secret skills than because they were stronger, fitter, and physi–cally tougher than their likely opponents. Likewise, an
Okinawan karateka, who ate a decent diet and worked out with stone barbells was understandably an easy victor over a peasant who performed
stoop labor and lived on the verge of starvation. And nowadays a professional boxer will make short work of the average working stiff.
Mastery stems not from the “style” itself, but from the physical toughness built by constant practice.

Mental toughness also, in large part, results from practice. Any man who regularly meets and sur–passes the physical challenges that make
up most of serious training concurrently builds mental tough–ness, the will to win that is the “secret” to winning a fight. But it’s harder to
find that kind of toughness-building martial arts training outside of Korea, Ja–pan, or the Navy SEALS. Mr. Fly By Nite’s tae kwon do
academy next door to Pizza Hut isn’t likely to teach toughness.

Body type also may create problems for Ameri–cans when they try Oriental martial arts. If your par–ents came from East Asia, then karate
and the like may work for you: you’re likely to possess the small stature, short limbs, and suppleness that allow kicks to hit hard and fast. How
many modern Americans, however, raised on Wheaties and McDonald’s bur–gers are built like the typical Japanese? Small, slight Asians
emphasize kicking in their unarmed combat because fighting with their feet is the only way they can hit hard; having lived without chairs all
their lives, those Asians have the hip flexibility to kick ef–fectively. Americans, on the other hand, sit in La-Z-Boy recliners, and so have a
harder time kicking. For a tall and long-armed man, the straight punches of a boxer should serve him well. If someone’s built thick and heavy,
wrestling might be a better choice. People should work with what they were born with. If a guy is built like a westerner, he should probably
fight most effectively with a “style” from the West.

A final problem with modern martial arts for the streetfighter is the tendency to emphasize the art in–stead of the martial. The men who
developed those “styles” centuries ago were warriors, and that’s why the military remains among the best sources for practical
hand-to-hand training. Founders of the martial arts were also often killers: Chinese organ–ized crime still contains some of the best kung-fu
masters alive. When warriors and killers trained, they trained to fight.

But nowadays the Self-Esteem Academy at every other strip mall is a place for little Jennifer and Kelly to spend a few hours until Mommy
arrives in her minivan. Those kids — the typical martial arts stu–dent in modern America — may learn self-discipline, build confidence, and
gain a certain amount of fitness on their ways to black belts.

But can they fight?

I’ve known a handful of black belts whom I wouldn’t attempt to tackle with anything less than a 12-gauge. I’ve also known plenty of others
whom I could take with a teaspoon. Face facts: a black belt used to mean that the man wearing it was hell in any back alley brawl, but nowadays
cripples, old ladies, and kids wear them.

The Benefits of Sports

So if martial arts have so many drawbacks, then what can sports teach a streetfighter? Three things, I think.

First, physical fitness. Anyone claiming that strength, endurance, and speed don’t mean much in a real fight probably hasn’t thrown a
punch in anger since the third-grade schoolyard. The fact is that the stronger fighter with greater stamina almost always wins — and that’s why
prizefighters and champion wrestlers spend so much time in the gym. More–over, hard workouts, remember, are the best way to build the
will-to-win that decides streetfights as much as physical toughness. Nevertheless, I’ve met “serious” martial artists who smoke three packs of
cigarettes a day and are built like the Pillsbury Doughboy.

Next, sports teach the lesson that size matters. Anyone who tells you otherwise, in any context, is trying not to hurt your feelings. Boxers
learn early that “a good big man will beat a good little man.” Most every light-heavyweight champion gets around to challenging for the
heavyweight crown, but the only one who won the title was Michael Spinks — and that was after building up from 175 pounds to 205.
Amateur wrestling competitions run within strict weight categories, and the pros know that no one could beat Andre the Giant. On the street, in
a fight without rules, sheer size is even more decisive. Still, martial arts types too often sell the nonsense that their “secret art” enables a little
man to beat a big one. Bet on the 6¢2¢2

Most importantly, sports teach by means of con–tact. To prepare for a streetfight you need to know what it feels like to get hit — and get hit
hard. The fraud of too many martial arts is that the students never bleed. And so, when the blood starts to flow in a serious fight, Junior Black
Belt panics and gets stomped into a stain by some drunk. Boxers and wrestlers, on the other hand, learn to make a friend of pain early in their
training — or else they find some more pacific activity.

Combat Sports the Key

Which sports work for the streetfighter? Well, not just anything. Basketball, for example, may require fitness and athleticism, but anyone
who has watched an NBA brawl knows that when basketball players hurt someone it’s mostly by accident. Football and hockey may help, but
a real fighter needs combat sports.

So let’s start with boxing.

Boxing is the combat “art” of the Western world. Until about fifty years ago, whenever an American thought of self-defense he thought of
“the manly art” — not some “style” designed for samurai, rice-fed peasants, or gangsters of the Triads. Why? Sim–ply because boxing
works to put an opponent down and out. For a thorough examination of the reasons, check out my Championship Streetfighting; but let’s
also look at evidence of boxing’s effectiveness I didn’t cite in the book: fighting for million-dollar purses, don’t you think that prizefighters
would adopt the shoot-from-the-hip reverse punch if it were harder, faster, and could produce more knock–outs than jabs, straight rights,
hooks, and upper–cuts? The fact remains that boxing blows are the most effective ways to end a fight fast, in the ring or on the street.

Street fights are messy, though, and often end up in grappling. Therefore, boxing, like any “style,” is necessarily incomplete. Wrestling is
the solution, and by wrestling I mean good ol’ catch-as-catch-can, the stuff that ancient Greeks used against Per–sian invaders, the sort Abe
Lincoln fought with on the frontier, and the type that formed the best hand-to-hand combat instructors during W.W.II. Wres–tling works
especially well for the stocky, heavily built fighter who was never meant for the Asian bal–let of spinning side kicks, but whose strength and
mass make him murder when the fight comes to grips. As the most strenuous sport, wrestling also has the advantage of producing exceptional
physical fitness: The bull neck and hard muscles of a wrestler are often sufficient to scare off threats on the street.

If you’re dead set on an Oriental “style,” then I suggest you give judo a try. Through the 1950s, judo was fashionable in combat circles, and
every–body and his brother called his system judo, no mat–ter its real source. Judo is really a kind of Japanese wrestling, and so possesses
most of the same advan–tages as Western freestyle. Just like wrestling and boxing, judo is a sound core discipline that teaches toughness,
balance, strength and fitness. Judo play–ers tend be mentally tough and in good shape. Since he’s earned his black belt through competition on
the mat, you can guarantee that a judo black belt can handle himself in a fight. Can you say the same for the typical strip-mall karateka?

Judo, wrestling, and boxing: none is “the ultimate killing art.” But, then, none claims to be. All three “styles” have their holes. However, if
you supple–ment sound striking skills as in boxing with basic grappling skills, as in wrestling or judo, then you’ll end up with as complete a
preparation for a street–fight as you’re likely to get. No, boxing, wrestling, or judo won’t give you an “art” or a “way.” Still, when push
comes to shove — and maybe punches, beer bottles, and blood, too — you’re better off trusting in the physical and mental toughness, the
strength and fitness, the will to win and skills tested in competition that come from rough combat sports. Leave art to the artists.Ÿ

Ned Beaumont is the author of Championship Streetfighting: Boxing as a Martial Art and Kill-As-Catch-Can: Wrestling Skills for
Streetfighting.

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.

[Jeff Liboiron]

Isn't every martial art technique deadly? I mean isn't that why we call it "martial" art?

[Boulder Student]

Essentially, they are trying to communicate the genuis of Kano. He created a combat effective system that could be safely trained at full power with a fully resisting partner. These techniques are the only predictably "deadly" techniques. The rest is conjecture unless you actually train dim mak. Unfortunately, all of your partners will be dead in a very short period of time. Since you can't practice the techniques, they are "deadly" in theory. Unfortunately, the theory can't be tested. Kano modernized the martial arts and made them more scientific and much less mysterious.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[shinwa]

yah Jigoro Kano did some cool stuff. That's a seriously intriguing thought. But you still couldn't have a ton of guys using Judo against a flock of Samurai, or in any war i don't think. A bit time consuming.

[omegapoint]

Evander Holyfield was a Light-Heavyweight champ before becoming Heavyweight champ.

I agree with you on one point: size does matter, unless you got mad skills like Helio Gracie (5'9", 135 pounds at his peak)!

Judo is alright for learning basic grappling for fighting, but it's lost much of it's old school deadliness. You are right about MOST traditional karate and Kung Fu "schools"; they ain't worth shhhhit, except as capitalistic ventures!

Sport is sport and reality is reality. There is no in-between! If you can't find someone to train under that knows how to really fight then sport is cool. I figure that's about 90% of the people who post on this board. You can't "feel" what you don't know!!!