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Spectre
10-09-2001, 01:20 PM
Another post asked a great question:

What is meant by 'Way of the Intercepting Fist'?

How do YOU define intercepting?

__________________________________________________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

Cyborg
10-09-2001, 02:04 PM
I think it means to read the opponents intentions and attack before they get there. "Not to attack into attack, but to attack into their preparation for attack." I'm paraphrasing Bruce there.

I find that no matter what technique I use it always comes back to timing it into their preparation. It's a proactive and not a reactive thing.

Any body wanna spar?

shaolinboxer
10-09-2001, 04:34 PM
This is the same as the concept of Irimi.

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

curtis
10-10-2001, 11:17 AM
what is intercepting ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyle great question.
I believe it's more question of what is intercepting. If you train to perceive motion (to watch and see a person how they build up for strike.) And then move when or before they actually begin . That could be one definition.
I see it more as traping.
You go for the strike. If the secondary intercepts your strike, you flow away from the block and trapp the opponent arms. Then you hit him.
But it could also be the shutting down of striking lines. (Which is also are traping.)
If you draw an imaginary line from the opponent's hand to your face. And then use your hand (or fist) to intercept that line, you also effectively trapped the opponent ability to strike. ( Is this what you mean? " On intercepting"?) C.A.G.
posted 10-10-01 02:02 AM

P.S.
I belive the term intercepting, should be called shuting down the oppenant.
Again Why more people dont do it?WHO CAN FIGURE!!!
C.A.G.

Yuen
10-21-2001, 09:36 PM
inteception = counter-action to one's movement

fmann
10-22-2001, 04:42 AM
He thinks of hitting me, I've already hit him.
He moves to hit me, I've already hit him 2x.
He tries to hit me, I've already hit him 3x.

curtis
10-22-2001, 11:01 AM
Yuen,I think youve got the bull by the tail, keep holding on!
Fmamn
what you said is easy to say, but not always easy too do.
make sure that your attack has a bult in defenceive action as well, You dont have to TRAP him in so many words, but you will always need to shut down his possible lines of attack. other wise theres no guarantes.
C.A.G.

Sean Madigan
10-22-2001, 02:38 PM
HI fmann,

That is the best description of "Interception" that I've ever seen on any of these forums.

Great Post.

"BIG" Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com (http://www.bigjkd.com)

dzu
10-22-2001, 11:04 PM
You attack first, but I arrive first.

The opponent's action dictates your response. Your reponse shuts him down before his attack reaches full power.

Dzu

Spectre
10-23-2001, 01:06 PM
Maybe it is just me, but I cannot see how punching faster than the opponent is intercepting. :confused:

Kevin

__________________________________________________ ____

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

fmann
10-23-2001, 05:20 PM
If I knock someone out before they can execute their technique on me, then I have intercepted <u>THEM</u> -- who cares about the technique?

Too many people think the concept of "interception" means to intercept or trap a technique. Those are just means to the ultimate goal -- to intercept the opponent, not the punches or kicks that he throws at you.

"Kill some soldiers, and the enemy general will rally reinforcements. Kill the general: Now who's going to call for reinforcements?"

Daedalus
10-23-2001, 07:16 PM
In order for it to be an interception, just like in football, the intercepting move should cancel, override, or negate your opponents move.

Interception techniques can be very useful, but to base one's entire style upon this concept would require phenominal speed (which Bruce Lee possessed). Many things that I have read about Bruce Lee indicate that he spent alot of time building up his speed and that most of his techniques and tactics played off of his speed.

Makes his art kinda one sided, don't you think? Take speed out of the equation and your art is crippled (intercepting included).

Just my opinion.

Spectre
10-23-2001, 07:22 PM
So does this mean that you are placing all of your offense/defense on that one punch being faster and with sufficient power while being placed in the correct alignment to render an opponent unconscious?

For every mountain there is a higher...
...for every fist there is a stronger.


Kevin

__________________________________________________ ____________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

dzu
10-23-2001, 07:45 PM
It's not about overwhelming speed. It's about timing and positioning. Speed is a physical attribute that will fade over time. Timing and positioning are developed skills.

Dzu

fmann
10-23-2001, 09:48 PM
Right on.

You don't necessarily need kinetic speed, but computational speed is of great importance (e.g., how you react, your timing, awareness, etc.).

Daedalus,

Take out the speed in any art and it's crippled. Show me a martial art that prides itself on moving in slow motion in combat. The concept of interception is NOT TECHNIQUE BASED. I say this because I'm not a JKD'er, but rather a WT artist. The concept of interception is universal and can be applied regardless of technique.

You don't have to knock the guy out obviously. Rather a series of hits leading to the knock-out is enough. Or a knockout kick. :D

Spectre
10-23-2001, 09:52 PM
So if over the course of time your speed decreases, the possibility of your opponent's punch/kick may beat your strong, well placed punch.

Is it then still 'The way of the intercepting fist'? Is it at all 'intercepting'?

The answer is no - it is not intercepting. 'Trapping' however can remain a course of intercepting throughout life - proven by an old Yip Man. After all - as you have stated - it should work regardless of age or physical stature.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Kevin

__________________________________________________ _______________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

dzu
10-23-2001, 10:20 PM
Intercepting is not about using one strike as the Killer Blow. It's about cutting off the attack before it reaches full power. If you make a mistake, your structure and sensitivity allow you to change and adjust. If you wait for the attack to reach full power before you respond, you are allowing the opponent to dictate the tempo of the confrontation. Intercepting is a concept that is universal to all MA.

As you get older, hopefully your experience will allow you to recognize things and move more naturally, which compensates for the loss in physical speed. Yip Man wasn't good in his old age because of his 'trapping'. Yip Man was good because he could connect to the ground for power, was sensitive enough to make changes at the right moment, and controlled his partner's center of gravity. These are developed skills over time. If you can do all of the above, why do you still need to 'trap'?

Dzu

Spectre
10-24-2001, 12:00 AM
First you say: "Intercepting is...about cutting off the attack before it reaches full power."

How are you cutting off the attack? Is your punch acting as a natural defense? If so, is this not still 'trapping' in a sense?

Then you say: "If you make a mistake, your structure and sensitivity allow you to change and adjust."

Change and adjust what? If you are talking about stance then I can see that as a redirection and not necessarily a trap. But even if an opponent's primary weapon is out of reach, is that still not in a sense, 'trapping' his weapon?

You also say: "Yip Man was good because...he was sensitive enough to make changes at the right moment, and controlled his partner's center of gravity.

Again - change and adjust what? Have you 'trapped' your opponent's weapon outside of your gates/perimeter?

And last: "If you can do all of the above, why do you still need to 'trap'?"

I can partially agree with you on this. If I can read the opponent well enough, I should be able to end the fight before he can start it which makes all of these arguments, as well as learning WC or any other martial art, unnecessary.

If trapping is not necessary, why did Yip Man teach it? Why does any MA teach it? Simple: Not everyone is a Yip Man. Not everyone is a Bruce Lee. So they may need trapping. Now all of these arguments and MA training is necessary.

Once again...just my two cents. ;)

Kevin

__________________________________________________ ________________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

dzu
10-24-2001, 01:27 AM
Kevin,

"How are you cutting off the attack? Is your punch acting as a natural defense? If so, is this not still 'trapping' in a sense?"

Yes the punch is acting as a defense. If I hit him before he can do anything, then I cut off his attack. If I punch and it controls the line by deflecting his punch, then I cut off his attack. If I just step into the punch before it is fully extend and send him flying, that is also cutting off the attack. One concept can have limitless applications.

What is your definition of 'trapping'?: Is it bridge on bridge? Is it a collection of techniques? Is it immobilizing a limb?

"Change and adjust what? ... But even if an opponent's primary weapon is out of reach, is that still not in a sense, 'trapping' his weapon?"

Again, what is your definition of trap? I change and adjust based upon what he does. I can't give you a specific answer without a specific situation. What is the primary weapon? Is it the limb that just tried to hit me, the force from his pressure that threatens to knock me over, or the body and mind that control the limbs?

"Again - change and adjust what? Have you 'trapped' your opponent's weapon outside of your gates/perimeter?"

If in contact, I adjust to his force so I remain rooted and control his center of gravity. If not in contact, I step to find a good position. If I can hit him, I do. If I can't, I establish a bridge and then destroy his end at the foundation.

Yip Man didn't teach trapping. He taught Wing Chun. Everyone makes mistakes, which is what the tools of the system are for. The tools, however, are not limited to just 'trapping'. You can translate the WC tools and concepts (pak sau, lop sau, tan sau, etc.) as 'trapping', but then you lose a lot of the depth behind their meanings.

Dzu

fmann
10-24-2001, 04:08 AM
Again... techniques are only the ways to apply the concepts and principles.

If you are the fastest person in the world, in both reaction and in physical speed, you won't ever need to trap, grapple, etc. because you will be so fast that you will intercept the opponent before he can even do anything.

Will you still have to learn a MA? IMHO, Yes. How else would you condition your hands to punch w/o inflicting self-injury? And yes, boxing is a martial art, too. Sure, you could do it by trial and error and develop your own system... but that would be "learning a MA", too... albeit without a teacher.

Why do chi sao or learn any martial arts techniques? Because people f-ck up sometimes when your @ss is on the line, your heart is pounding, and your adrenaline is going. When you mess up, you need to have trained how to get around it. Hence learning a martial art and gaining the experience to move around an obstacle.

However, <u>the intent is still the same</u>. You may have to trap, but the goal is still to shut down your opponent, to intercept him. It just so happened that you had to deal with his technique because you mistimed something, or had a cold, or had a bad day, etc., etc..

I think we actually all see the same thing, but in different words........

Spectre
10-24-2001, 01:17 PM
I agree with you that I think we all see the same thing - just in different words.

I believe that is all comes down to simultaneous offense and defense. A punch can provide offense while shutting down the opponent's punching line (defense).

I do not believe that bridge against bridge is the only form of trapping (phon sao). Anything that can force the opponent's primary weapon (no matter what that weapon may be)outside of your perimeter/gates and render's it inoperative, is in my opinion, a form of trapping.

Of course this could continue to be an extremely long post but I am at work so it will have to suffice for now!

Take Care.

Kevin

__________________________________________________ ________________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

umgong
10-24-2001, 07:06 PM
Spectre,
Just curious, you are the Spectre on TFL?

In the mid-60's I actively searched for Bruce Lee even though I met him in '64, I finally came to the realization that JKD was more useful in combat for me. (I was living in central California at that time)
At that time, we understood that the way of the intercepting fist was also the way of the stopping fist.
Bruce realized that the time that an attack was the weakest was at the beginning of the attack...the very beginning the movement began. The opponent was committed to the attack and had no defense at that moment. His focus is solely on the beginning. It is not simply beating the opponent to the punch, even though that's what it looks like in combat.
The JKD student worked on "reading" the beginning of that committed move and reacted with an appropriate response to neutralize or stop the opponent's attack the moment the committed attack begins.
It is that moment between attack(i.e. the JKD person initiates the attack) and counterattack(the JKD students reaction to an attack after the attack has physically begun).
Typically, the movements then were straight punch,stop kick, and spear hand.

Hope it helps, not confuse.

[This message was edited by umgong on 10-25-01 at 10:19 AM.]

Spectre
10-24-2001, 07:57 PM
What is TFL?

If I don't know, chances are that I am not the same Spectre. :)

Kevin

__________________________________________________ _____________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.