Iron shirt Qi Gong

[cogg]

Just returned from visiting another forum, and noticed a debate on Iron Shirt, about whether or not its just a series of tricks or the ability to harness chi to protect the body from acts that would normally injure/maim/kill someone.

any opinions on this subject would be very interesting....What do you think??????????????????????

[MightyB]

My thought is that it's a myth. It's like the death touch, neat idea, but really no way to test it.

As far as the demonstrations: Again, I don't think that any situation a practitioner puts themselves in is actually life threatening. It's kind of like the old circus strong man acts in my opinion. Now if a chi gung master gets hit by a car and walks away without a scratch, that would be something...

[Repulsive Monkey]

So its pretty obvious that you havent trained in Iron Shirt Nei-Gong coming out with comments like that. The truth is that its its an absolute reality, why6 do people ignorant claim that the things they have no knwoledge or practical experience of is obvious untrue or false???

Ignorance does seem to breed its own evil!!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Fact.

But thinking it has to supply invulnerability to be worthwhile is just ignorant.

[MightyB]

I actually do have some experience in Iron shirt training. It was rather limited, but it was enough to form an opinion.

I think that it's more of building tolerance to pain. Kind've psychological and physical conditioning. One thing that I got out of a san shou match last year is that thigh kicks hurt, but you can train yourself to work through the pain. That's what I think iron shirt is all about. Think about it. You're a general in ancient China. You command troops that will fight hand to hand and with hand held weapons. You tell them that this kind of training will make them invulnerable. They will have a higher moral and, if they do get hit or stabbed, they will probably have the mental capacity to take out their assailant before they bleed to death.

[MightyB]

Most of the things that I've seen like breaking bricks over the head and laying on beds of nails, breaking piano wire, bending iron bars on the throat and such I've also seen non-martial trained physics professors do, so, I call them rehearsed or practiced circus acts.

But, I did once see a westerner who was a praying mantis Sifu from Canada get kicked in the go-nads without so much as a grimace. That was something. My Sigung used to do this thing where he'd have you grab some skin on his back and he'd literally inflate and pop you off. Wierd stuff...

[neptunesfall]

what you've seen in demonstrations by shaolin monks and etc are in fact nothing more than tailored magic tricks.
true iron body on the other hand, exists and is a real thing.
there are a few different methods to attain this, ranging from purely internal (qigongs) to having someone hit you with a stick.
some of it is pain tolerance, some of it is focus and conditioning of intent, some of it is something more.

[Former castleva]

There are fakes around here in MA etc. who do such tricks,like taking shots to vital spots,but it has been said that also true ones exist.
Personally,I do not believe in the idea of showing tricks (showing off) stuff like that,I think it may serve as a negative reputation.
Like breaking bricks and "karate stuff" or whatever you´d call it,it might just give the public some strange ideas,know what I mean.

But besides eye fakes of non-trained magicians,there are inviduals (like shaolin monks to name) who have actually trained very hard and when they do something devastating,they do something.

"Just returned from visiting another forum, and noticed a debate on Iron Shirt, about whether or not its just a series of tricks or the ability to harness chi to protect the body from acts that would normally injure/maim/kill someone."

I second that training like Iron Shirt is not a myth itself,but these kind of broad statements is what makes it look like such.
I always thought MA and Qi-gong especially is about understanding your vulnerability which will not change,and build your health and resources which you can.
If one gets hit in a certain,medically correct way,then he/she will also experience the consequences whether with hard forearms or not.

[Laughing Cow]

Fact.

But a lot of aspects are over-played due to frauds, media and so on.

Like with anything else it has it's place and uses within the MA.

Again like with anything else they are no 100% sure-fire methods and counters to a lot of Irons skills do exist.

I have heard that there is a certain strike out there that was designed to "crack the golden bell" cover, etc.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[GeneChing]

You should check out Shaolin monk Shi Guolin, known as the Iron Arhat for his iron shirt skills. He demo'ed at our gala benefit. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/dvdca108.html)

[joedoe]

The iron shirt stuff I have been taught doesn't make you invulnerable, but it does give you the ability to take the blows better. Seems to make you more stable, and the blows don't really hurt. The technique is not developed through pain tolerance either.

[David Jamieson]

I actually do have some experience in Iron shirt training. It was rather limited, but it was enough to form an opinion

:rolleyes:

I've been practicing Nei Gong for more than 5 years.
It works, it will help you to recover fast from hard punches and it will eliminate any weak punches thrown at your torso at all.

what is "limited"? There is no "limited" in Nei gong, you either start and continue or you have nothing to say. That's my limited opinion.

peace

[SevenStar]

A guy I know has been training golden bell for years. For his 50th birthday, he entered a smoker and stepped in the ring with a guy half his age. Of course, you can't just say his golden bell training is what enabled him to last, but I bet it had something to do with it, in addition to good conditioning.

[yenhoi]

what is "limited"? There is no "limited" in Nei gong, you either start and continue or you have nothing to say. That's my limited opinion.

Amen Kung Lek!

[Repulsive Monkey]

Amen times 2.

[Merryprankster]

I'm skeptical. All of the "demonstrations," I've seen or heard of have been easily explainable by less esoteric means.

On the other hand, I am unwilling to dismiss it out of hand.

[red5angel]

Why is there no way to test it? I assume that if you can train this there has to be a way to test it thoroughly right?
I don't prescribe mystical interpretations to much of what is in the martial world, like you pointed out mightyb, it probably is building a tolerance to pain and training fine body control.

[dezhen2001]

theres nothing esoteric about letting a guy smack you one, kick you or even jump on your tummy :)

but i agree that many of the 'shows' can be explained by other means and are mainly tricks. But again, there are real people who have real skill...

for eg. everyone calls the bending spear thing a trick, whereas personally i've tried it and couldnt even get the pole to move without seriously hurting my throat :) so maybe it IS a trick, but u still need some breath and body control as well as conditioning to do it.

c ya later guys,
dawood

[MightyB]

Limited is two years worth with one of the most respected Masters in traditional CMA. We did the usual stuff with the small bags, the cylinder shaped long bags, building up with multiple staffs, slaps along the meridians, two by fours on the back and kidneys, two people facing each other suspending a staff with the dan tian taking turns expanding and contracting, shin and forearm conditiong--- the usual. Of course with dit da jou, moxy bustion, and the whole nine yards.

Am I more stable and can I take a shot, Heck yeah. Do I think that I would ever be able to make myself invulnerable to stick and knife attacks and eat bullets? Not with all the iron training in the world and three lifetimes to perfect it. I don't doubt the value of training in Iron body, it's good in making a person a more capable fighter in that they will be able to take more of a beating, but, I don't know... I guess that I find my time better spent in reality rather than fantasy. The reality is that Cung Le would kick most Iron Body monks as$es and win by knocking them out. If it is absolutely true that you can make yourself invulnerable, then why doesn't the Chinese boxing team clean house at the Olympics? Why no Chinese Iron Body heavy weight champions of the world in Boxing? Or, why no Chinese champions at all in professional boxing? They wouldn't even have to know how to box. They could use the famed Rocky technique and let the other guy tire himself out by letting him punch him, then, late in the final rounds, beat him up.

I still use the mung bean bags, I still do shin and thigh and forearm conditiong. Like I said, I don't doubt the value of training that way, but my other posts explain what I think the reality of such training actually is. Toughening up is what they call it in wrestling and hockey.

[FatherDog]

I've never seen an "Iron Body Demonstration" that couldn't be duplicated by a football player with a basic knowledge of physics.

However, I also haven't seen every Iron Body practitioner in the world, so I can't say with assurance that it doesn't work.

I keep an open mind.

[GeneChing]

Cung Le was in the audience when Shi Guolin issued his challenge. So were a lot of masters and grandmasters. None stepped on to the platform. Perhaps this was out of respect. Perhaps it was out of professional courtesy. Perhaps it was out of the fear of failure. Nevertheless, I've seen Guolin issue his challenge several times and I've seen trained, hardened San shou fighters test him.

Iron body wouldn't work in boxing. I've heard of all sorts of iron skills - iron head, iron fingers, iron fist, (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/prat102.html) even iron crotch, (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/prjt001.html) but I've never heard of iron face.

[MightyB]

It was probably a little of both fear and respect since Cung has received training from the venerable Shaolin monk Master Liu.

I'm not knocking iron body, I just don't believe in magic.

[MightyB]

I have to order that tape:D

[MightyB]

Grandmaster Tu Jin-Sheng is a noted master of Qigong and Chinese medicine. He is recognized as a Professor in medical societies in Taiwan, Japan, Canada and the U.S.A. He is also a master painter and is renowned for his extraordinary feats of hard Kung Fu, such as breaking solid objects with his bare hands and lifting heavy weights with his private parts.

taken from the martial arts page that Gene put a link to.

[GeneChing]

You mean despite all my plugs for that tape - this is the first time you've heard of it? Wow, I got to plug harder. Check out our gala benefit afternoon show. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/dvdca107.html) Master Tu tows a truck full of people across the parking lot with his privates.

Ironically, I just got a call from Cung Le. Not regarding this matter, mind you, something else. But for what it's worth, Shawn Liu is not a Shaolin monk, he's a disciple and that has been apoint of contention between him and Shi Guolin in the past, though I doubt Cung was even aware of it. I suspect that he didn't take the stage out of respect - keep in mind, he wasn't the only master there - we had a full house. If the master's show that kind of respect to this Shaolin monk, shouldn't you?

On Cung vs. Guolin - I've seen Cung fight and know his skills, but I don't think he could penetrate Guolin's iron body. However, iron body doesn't protect everything, so it would be an extraordinary fight. I don't know which master I'd put my money on. If it were straight up San Shou, then Cung all the way, but if it were weapons, definately Guolin.

[MightyB]

"If the master's show that kind of respect to this Shaolin monk, shouldn't you?

I don't recall dissing the monks.

Besides, there's so much politics and face saving in the West Coast martial arts world that I doubt anybody would ever step up to take a challenge from anybody. It's easier to sit back and call the challenger a fool and get support from allies in the crowd than to actually fight it out.

I'd say Shi's got balls and he knows he can back them up.

[Former castleva]

Iron body is a metaphor.

Just like if one practices dragon style KF,it won´t turn one into a long (drag.)
This was already said in a different manner,but just wanted to add this.

[David Jamieson]

I have demonstrated my "limited" iron body skills to, well, let's call them non-believers come interested people.

Upon discovering that I practice Kungfu, a friend of my close friend said "well, what's so special about it".

I offered that he may strike me in the solar plexus with all the power he wants.

he did, his punch was repelled and he was slightly dismayed as i stood, without flinching, tensing or otherwise showing any effect or for that matter feeling any effect of his strike.

I weigh about 190 lbs, he weighed about 240 and was a Karateka.

Immediately following him, two more guys stepped up to ring the bell, both were met with the same results.

I then asked if they could withstand a full on strike. No takers, good thing too :D I don't have the hardest strike in the world, but i can throw a good one, especially to a willing waiting stationary target. Oh well, I probably would have refused had they been naive enough to take the shot.

Iron shirt/vest/body training works and it works well. I'm perfectly willing to this day to offer my belly up for full on shots to those who disbelieve. Including boxers, martials artists of all disciplines etc etc etc.

Anyway, just saying, not bragging.
peace

[dezhen2001]

great kung lek :)

ive done the same with some of my mates who do kicboxing and even people who dont train. i even let some people smack me across the tummy with a 2 by 4, aikido jo (oak) or whatever. no trick in it really. just stand there and they guy hits u as hard as he can. Actually i should train more as i wanna get better :(

I think its important to differentiate between legends and stories with the reality.

people build up conditioning and tolerance to things by repeated actions. If anyone describes the training you will see that its something developed over time and not an instant fix. I dont know wrestling or hockey or football so cant say about it :)

dawood

[GeneChing]

Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that comment about dissing monks directly at you - I meant it to be more general. My bad. But FWIW, there were east coast reps alongside west coast at our party, as well as many straight out of China, so I don't think it was a west coast thing. Besides, Guolin is from Flushing NY now, so he does plenty more demos there then he does here. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, he's only been on the West coast here a few times, less than you could count on one hand.

[_William_]

How does Iron Shirt protect nerve clusters like the solar plexus?

[David Jamieson]

_william_

a. by wrapping

and

b. by bringing the water body to the fore

and

c. by conditioning to respond

peace

[_William_]

Pardon? I don't quite understand that. Could you please elaborate on those points?

Thanks.

[David Jamieson]

sorry _william_, you'll have to try it. :)

try starting with this http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/prat102.html

peace

[Andy]

Has anyone done a comparison of Iron shirt training methods? There are a lot of seminars, books, and video's out there and it seems as though the arts that do train it, all train it a little differently. What common principles have you found?

[WanderingMonk]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32670

[Andy]

Thanks for passing that thread on to me. Most of the methods I found listed there are what I refer to as "breathe and squeeze" methods. Do you have any idea what's going on physiologically with them?

Andy

[WanderingMonk]

Andy,

I don't know but if I have to speculate, I say it is like an inflated ball. It prevent the internal cavity from suffering direct impact trauma. The old criticism for this type of iron body: it is like having a hard casing but delicate glassware inside the [treasure] chest. if you shakes it a lot, the glassware still gets destroy.

wm

[woodendumby]

Can anyone comment on any Practical effects of this practice as it relates to fighting ?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

When punches cause Booo, Boos on other people, they will not cause them on you.

[jet64]

Can anyone comment on any Practical effects of this practice as it relates to fighting ?

this training is on relax mode, the body can get used to pounding, so it can absorb punches or kicks.

its training comes with herbal medicine.

[TenTigers]

studies made by insurance companies(not sure how this is done-but this is what I read once) indicate that people who were invoved in contact sports, such as Martial Arts, Football, Rugby, Hockey, etc., had much better survival rates in auto collisions due to the strengthening of the fascia and support of the internal organs. Many deaths were caused by massive trauma. Sort of like shaken baby syndrome. The impact training, pressurizing and breathing exercises,are said to strengthen the internal organs in just such a way. In TCMA, beating, and impact massage is said to stimulate the organs, remove stagnation, as well as breathing methods to tonify and strengthen the immune system. The lymphatic system as well as cerebal spinal fluid is pumped through movement. Iron Body combines all of this in a series of exercises and postures. The pressure testing is probably the most recognized aspect of this training, and probably the most exagerrated as well.
I would be interested in what Chris Jurak has to say on this topic, as well as Steve Lamande.

[Oso]

nice concise definition TT.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

studies made by insurance companies(not sure how this is done-but this is what I read once) indicate that people who were invoved in contact sports, such as Martial Arts, Football, Rugby, Hockey, etc., had much better survival rates in auto collisions due to the strengthening of the fascia and support of the internal organs. Many deaths were caused by massive trauma. Sort of like shaken baby syndrome. The impact training, pressurizing and breathing exercises,are said to strengthen the internal organs in just such a way. In TCMA, beating, and impact massage is said to stimulate the organs, remove stagnation, as well as breathing methods to tonify and strengthen the immune system. The lymphatic system as well as cerebal spinal fluid is pumped through movement. Iron Body combines all of this in a series of exercises and postures. The pressure testing is probably the most recognized aspect of this training, and probably the most exagerrated as well.
I would be interested in what Chris Jurak has to say on this topic, as well as Steve Lamande.

The correct, I would add the "fight specific" impact conditioning is a must.

[MASTERforge]

Iron Shirt is similar to iron palm except that its designed so you can take a pounding on the torso and not go down. Without some form of conditioning, this is a soft spot that could make the decision in a fight. Sit-ups are normally enough conditioning but if you want to go that bit extra go for Iron Shirt Training.

With Iron Palm we train our hands to be strong so when they hit targets they don't break our hands. The energy is transferred into the target not back into the hand. Your hands feel like Iron hammers and are much more effective in a fight. I find finger press-up really help with this.

I understand that Iron shirt training includes relaxed muscle conditioning. i am a bit cautious about this as I wonder what it does internally?

[Dale Dugas]

Iron Shirt is similar to iron palm except that its designed so you can take a pounding on the torso and not go down. Without some form of conditioning, this is a soft spot that could make the decision in a fight. Sit-ups are normally enough conditioning but if you want to go that bit extra go for Iron Shirt Training.

With Iron Palm we train our hands to be strong so when they hit targets they don't break our hands. The energy is transferred into the target not back into the hand. Your hands feel like Iron hammers and are much more effective in a fight. I find finger press-up really help with this.

I understand that Iron shirt training includes relaxed muscle conditioning. i am a bit cautious about this as I wonder what it does internally?

Iron Vest trains the fascia of the body to thicken over time. The internal version does not hit the body at all. That is the external pai da gung version of Iron Body that is not related to the internal versions.

Its a long nei gong set that contains numerous exercises to twist and turn the body to train the fascia to thicken. Add this the serious standing built in the program and you become able to take more punishment as when people hit you the power can be taken through the body and into the ground.

Be well, train hard

[hskwarrior]

WATCH and pay close attention you losers!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1G9NJMdYgs

[EarthDragon]

what in the HE double hockey sticks was that HSK?

[Dragonzbane76]

wtf was that???

some fat dude skipping around the room on someones hand??

I've to see any martial application here. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

wtf was that???

some fat dude skipping around the room on someones hand??

I've to see any martial application here.

LMAO it is the very same guy who said choy lee fut sucks and made that video. THIS video was his response.....his IRON HAND was more real than any martial video's posted in Youtube. again LMAO

[Dragonzbane76]

I don't know about any guy stating CLF "sucks" must have missed that part. Just commenting on what was posted in vid.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quVrTBnY52M

I posted this in the southern section. the guy has been hounding me on youtube....i think he has a mancrush on me

[teetsao]

yes, some fat man stepping on your hand is a much more real demonstration of iron hand than me and my brothers breaking 4 inch solid blocks and 4 inch plus 2 inch with no spacers.
we are going to have to start allover after seeing this.

[David Jamieson]

I wonder if he'd let me heel stomp his hand....

lol at having some chubby dude walk over your hand.

that was more awesome than a lying cake falling through a portal....

[hskwarrior]

The funny thing is, he targeted the CLF Sow Choy claiming that its easily defendable and equivalent to b!tch slaps. He THEN claimed he would post his IRON SHIRT skills and posted that idiotic video of his grandpa pretending to stomp on his hands. his next video showed his hand was bruising.

http://theradioblog.marthastewart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/dunce-713973.jpg

[David Jamieson]

apparently he hates you Frank.

He's got some tard rage against you it seems.

youtubers are freaks for the most part.

a whole lot of attention hos that ain't worth much attention really.

I am astonished with the amount of talkking head videos by guys who want to tell you what they saw on TV or on the internet.

meh, ya gotta dig...

[mooyingmantis]

Now that was funny! Thanks for posting that and brightening my gloomy Ohio day. :)

[hskwarrior]

yeah, i think he has a man crush and really wants to be me friend. LOL

i agree with you though.