Dogbrothers question

[Lucas]

So I have been navigating their site, i must be slow with this internet deal.

I am having problems finding if there are any affiliates or physical instructors in my area of the USA that i can go talk to.

sorry to ask this but does anyone in the know have easy info?

[Chosen-frozen]

I was just looking at thier site. In the section labeled "DBMAA Instructors" it doesn`t list anyone in your state. However there is a street adress listed in the upper left hand corner of the homepage. Why not drop them a letter and ask? Other than that you might check some of the schools listed in California. I don`t know how far you`re willing to travel to get some training.

There`s also a forum on the site and you could post a question there that should get you replies from someone who actually is familliar with DBMA.

Failing all that, oick up your yellow pages. I`m sure someone in Portland is offering Fillipino MA and that could be a place to start your training.

[Oso]

just pick up a stick and start hitting people with it.

they'll probably try to stop you and may even try to hit you back...possibly with something weaponish.

keep at it.

don't let little setbacks like broken fingers, lacerations and whatnot deter you.

try and try again.

it really won't take that long to get pretty good with a stick.

:)

[Knifefighter]

So I have been navigating their site, i must be slow with this internet deal.

I am having problems finding if there are any affiliates or physical instructors in my area of the USA that i can go talk to.

sorry to ask this but does anyone in the know have easy info?

Ask on the forum... Marc Denny will answer you.

[Lucas]

cool. ill get a question on that forum when i can get around to it.

im mainly looking for a place not only to learn some good weapon training, but mainly some hands on sparring and such.

looking to get my ass kicked on a regular basis basically.

I used to spar a lot with a couple of friends using wooden weapons, mainly bokken, and chinese style wooden weapons.

is DBMA primarily FMA based or are there any JMA influences involved much?

ie: i really like the boken/katana and would like some more experience in using it against a person. i am also interested in learning some FMA, but am primarily looking for a place to practice with my favorite weapon in a live environment.

[Lucas]

thanks again for your responses though, ill get signed up on that forum soon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ie: i really like the boken/katana and would like some more experience in using it against a person. i am also interested in learning some FMA, but am primarily looking for a place to practice with my favorite weapon in a live environment.


Bokken/Bokuto training is NOT full contact for many reasons, the main being there isn't any really good protective gear VS a solid piece of Oak.
Katana training is forms only, for obvious reasons, and must include test cutting.
Kendo is a good start if you like contact fighting with sword-sticks, but it does not teach you the biomechanics of the Katana.

[Lucas]

Bokken/Bokuto training is NOT full contact for many reasons, the main being there isn't any really good protective gear VS a solid piece of Oak.
Katana training is forms only, for obvious reasons, and must include test cutting.
Kendo is a good start if you like contact fighting with sword-sticks, but it does not teach you the biomechanics of the Katana.

a good friend and I were in the process of getting armor set up for full contact boken fighting.

its been put on a severe hold due to him being a new father.

but it concisted of recycled plastic pickle barrel. 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick. fashioned after 16-17 century samurai armor, reinforced with steel "ribs" for each plate. the "ribs" being 1/4- 1/2 inch thick as well, 1 inch wide.

we had a chest piece, and gauntlet/bracer and shoulder finished, though we went back to the drawing board for the chest piece. we implimented too much of a kozain style and need more solid plate.

but i was able to take a full power down handed boken strike to my forarm with no damage. just a bit of shock.

we spent countless hours designing and getting this stuff ready to be built and tested by ourselves. about 1/3 of the way through he goes and has a kid.

oh well, we should get back to it soon, once he has time.

he is the guy with all the tools and a shop to work at, but once we get a full set completed,......its on!

we were interested in finding some budo players to test this stuff out once we get a fully developed design...

hopefully soon in the future we can get back this on

it all came about because neither on of us like shinai, and we got tired of hurting each other with our boken. some broken fingers, split forheads/lips and multitudes of bruises gets old.

we were also in the process of developing a helmet to be used for this as well, again from old japanese design, yet with a more western outlook on the face coverage.

[Knifefighter]

nds using wooden weapons, mainly bokken, and chinese style wooden weapons.

is DBMA primarily FMA based or are there any JMA influences involved much?
.

Dog Bros stuff is mainly FMA with a BJJ influence, although they will incorporate whatever works.

You can pretty much spar with whatever you want, although you will learn mainly with the sticks and knives. At the gatherings we have fought with bokkens, nunchucks, kendo sticks, staffs, and even tree branches and bullwhips.

[Lucas]

Dog Bros stuff is mainly FMA with a BJJ influence, although they will incorporate whatever works.

You can pretty much spar with whatever you want, although you will learn mainly with the sticks and knives. At the gatherings we have fought with bokkens, nunchucks, kendo sticks, staffs, and even tree branches and bullwhips.

now that sounds like fun.

i can see how bjj would be pretty effective stuff while fighting with sticks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dog Bros stuff is mainly FMA with a BJJ influence, although they will incorporate whatever works.

You can pretty much spar with whatever you want, although you will learn mainly with the sticks and knives. At the gatherings we have fought with bokkens, nunchucks, kendo sticks, staffs, and even tree branches and bullwhips.

I realize that, I have been to two in the past, I didn't compete because I didn't have health insurance in the US :D

That said, to your post and to Lucus's post about his friend that made armour that allowed them to do full contact bokken work, you are kind of missing the point.
The bokken is suppose to be used in the manner of a true sword and when you take it into the realm of FC STICK fighting, you cease to use it as a sword, you club instead of cutting, you smack instead of slashing, etc.
IF you are gonna do it you have to be very concious of HOW you do it and in the manner you "cut n slash".
Better to just use a "JO".

[Knifefighter]

I realize that, I have been to two in the past, I didn't compete because I didn't have health insurance in the US :D

That said, to your post and to Lucus's post about his friend that made armour that allowed them to do full contact bokken work, you are kind of missing the point.
The bokken is suppose to be used in the manner of a true sword and when you take it into the realm of FC STICK fighting, you cease to use it as a sword, you club instead of cutting, you smack instead of slashing, etc.
IF you are gonna do it you have to be very concious of HOW you do it and in the manner you "cut n slash".
Better to just use a "JO".

Actually, if you look back at how people actually fought with swords, most strikes were not that much different than hitting with a blunt instrument. It is a known fact that European battlefield sword play was done this way. Many people think that the Samari fought with a slashing kind of motion, but I'd be willing to bet that their combat striking was also of a "clubbing" nature.

The reason for this is that this clubbing motion (which is pretty much the same as done with a blunt instrument) does the most damage. You can see this by doing the "Vunak experiment" of hanging a chunk of meat and striking it with the two methods using a blade. You will find that the clubbing method does more damage that the "pull through slicing" method. There is much more penetration and trauma from the first method compared to the second. Its the same reason that when chopping meat with a meat cleaver, you don't saw through like you would when cutting more precisely with a knife.

BTW, which gathings did you go to?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, if you look back at how people actually fought with swords, most strikes were not that much different than hitting with a blunt instrument. It is a known fact that European battlefield sword play was done this way. Many people think that the Samari fought with a slashing kind of motion, but I'd be willing to bet that their combat striking was also of a "clubbing" nature.

The reason for this is that this clubbing motion (which is pretty much the same as done with a blunt instrument) does the most damage. You can see this by doing the "Vunak experiment" of hanging a chunk of meat and striking it with the two methods using a blade. You will find that the clubbing method does more damage that the "pull through slicing" method. There is much more penetration and trauma from the first method compared to the second. Its the same reason that when chopping meat with a meat cleaver, you don't saw through like you would when cutting more precisely with a knife.

BTW, which gathings did you go to?

I am pretty sure it was the 98 and 99 when I left the service.
I have done test cutting on meat (uncle is a butcher, cool eh?, also did a rocky too ;) ), and with a typical long sword (straight and broad) I agree, with a Katana ( a true one with the correct curvature) I don't agree, remember, ideally its the first 6" from the tip of the katana that you strike with and if you are cutting correctly, it will be impact on the "pull" already.
I think that, if you are impact other than the "sweet spot" of the katana, you are correct.
But again, to stress my point, clubbing with a bokken is not the correct way to do it, if you decide to do ful contact with it, you have to remember to "cut" with it and also remember that it is suppose to be a blade of a sword so no exchaning blows.


I recall Paul's experiment with the knife on the slab of beef, I also recall his biting into it as part of his "biting" tutorial.
Sick *******.

[Knifefighter]

with a Katana ( a true one with the correct curvature) I don't agree, remember, ideally its the first 6" from the tip of the katana that you strike with and if you are cutting correctly, it will be impact on the "pull" already.
I think that, if you are impact other than the "sweet spot" of the katana, you are correct.
But again, to stress my point, clubbing with a bokken is not the correct way to do it, if you decide to do ful contact with it, you have to remember to "cut" with it and also remember that it is suppose to be a blade of a sword so no exchaning blows.

Have you fought full contact with it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you fought full contact with it?

I have tried, my kendo group at one time experimented with football padding and such, but the injuries started to add up and most decided that, "stick for stick, stcik with kendo".

Even controlled full contact ended up being a bit much, crack helmets and such, plus so much of kenjutsu is aimed at the wrists, waist and neck...

The FIST gear was atcually alright, but didn't allow for the freedom of movement that we liked.
It was ok for the "controlled full contact", but that was it.

Don't get me wrong, it was still fun, but at the end of the day most didn't see the value of doing it over just doing "realistic kendo".

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GHi4r7Y66Y

A stick VS Bokken clip.

kind of illustrates all that is "wrong" with how a bokken is typically used in full contact stick fighting.
Props for both of them for the match.

Remember when you watch that, that the bokken represents a REAL sword.

[Lucas]

I know what your talking about sanjuro.

while the technicality of the techniques used with a boken are to mimic your styles sword play, the reality of what many soldiers would end up doing in war with a japanese sword might differ.

while yes, the end of the blade is where you want to cut with, and cut you do want to do. even a blunt strike with a katana, for instance, will result in a different but similar effect to a person. they will open, and bleed.

its similar to the aspect of blocking with the sides of the blade, in combat is that going to be what we actually do? i suppose if the training were present, it might be.

So while i agree with you on the intended purpose of the weapon, the actual applications do step oustide the bounds of its design. so why use a boken instead of a bo or a shinai....i dont know :D it just feels different.

[Mr Punch]

Actually, if you look back at how people actually fought with swords, most strikes were not that much different than hitting with a blunt instrument. It is a known fact that European battlefield sword play was done this way. Sure.


Many people think that the Samari fought with a slashing kind of motion, but I'd be willing to bet that their combat striking was also of a "clubbing" nature. I very much doubt it. Modern WMAists practice with western swords in the manner you describe. Modern kenjutsu people don't. Are you suggesting they completely changed to look fancier or something during the Tokugawa? Sure, some of the techs became fancier, but I can't see all of the schools adopting such a radically different approach in the same way!


The reason for this is that this clubbing motion (which is pretty much the same as done with a blunt instrument) does the most damage. You can see this by doing the "Vunak experiment" of hanging a chunk of meat and striking it with the two methods using a blade. You will find that the clubbing method does more damage that the "pull through slicing" method. There is much more penetration and trauma from the first method compared to the second. Its the same reason that when chopping meat with a meat cleaver, you don't saw through like you would when cutting more precisely with a knife.Sure... The designs of the swords you're talking about are completely different. Since you're always up for specificity, did Vunak do that cutting experiment with a katana? And has he ever been shown how to use one?

The description 'pull through method' does not describe what you are supposed to do with a katana.

Try it with bokken on a stiff cardboard box. The clubbing style will maybe crush the box, but you can even actually cut the cardboard box with a good cutting motion of a blunt bokken.

BTW, the bokken vs stick vid was good, and a good example of, well, bokken vs stick. A katana was used for thrusting probably as much as cutting. The only viable guard with wooden/blunt simulation weapons is an overhead one as shown: unless he was abandon the bokken style altogether and just go for a kali style way of holding it - but even then the extra weight and length wouldn't do him any favours in that case. With a katana a far better and more natural guard would be chudan (mid level pointed at the enemy). They then have to 'bat' your sword out of the way, when all you need to do is cut it back or thrust through with it's very sharp 6 inches or so of kissaki.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know what your talking about sanjuro.

while the technicality of the techniques used with a boken are to mimic your styles sword play, the reality of what many soldiers would end up doing in war with a japanese sword might differ.

while yes, the end of the blade is where you want to cut with, and cut you do want to do. even a blunt strike with a katana, for instance, will result in a different but similar effect to a person. they will open, and bleed.

its similar to the aspect of blocking with the sides of the blade, in combat is that going to be what we actually do? i suppose if the training were present, it might be.

So while i agree with you on the intended purpose of the weapon, the actual applications do step oustide the bounds of its design. so why use a boken instead of a bo or a shinai....i dont know :D it just feels different.

I think that if you truly want to learn swordsmanship, you need to find someone who knows how to use a real sword, there are many misconceptions.
Like the "blocking with the side of the blade" you mention ( you don't "block" with a sword).
My experience is with that yagyu-shinkage ryu (primaraly) and the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu ( secondary), and also some Toyama/Nakamura-ryu.
Test cutting is crucial and so is the very first leasson you learn - AI Uchi.

[Knifefighter]

Who says the bokken is supposed to represent a sword? If you've got one and can fight with it, it makes a great weapon (I believe Musashi beat several opponents with it). It makes a lot more sense to learn to fight with it as a blunt force weapon, since that is what it is and you are more likely to fight with it (or another improvised weapon that might be close to that size and weight) than you are with an actual katana.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Who says the bokken is supposed to represent a sword? If you've got one and can fight with it, it makes a great weapon (I believe Musashi beat several opponents with it). It makes a lot more sense to learn to fight with it as a blunt force weapon, since that is what it is and you are more likely to fight with it (or another improvised weapon that might be close to that size and weight) than you are with an actual katana.

While the rst of your post is correct, I have no idea why you would ask "Who says the bokken is supposed to represent a sword?".

That is like asking who said a practice knife is suppose to represent a real knife.

[Mr Punch]

While the rst of your post is correct, I have no idea why you would ask "Who says the bokken is supposed to represent a sword?".

That is like asking who said a practice knife is suppose to represent a real knife.Precisely. Plus, nobody said they were supposed to be the same and you (KF) started on about the properties of the blades. It seems you don't really know that much about katana... no disrespect or anything.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I recall when we were doing some FC work with the FIST gear that, when struck with the bokken in a typical "stick" fashion it felt "less forcefull" then when struck in a "kenjutsu" like fashion, BUT, the marks left on the gear showed the "superiour" cutting action of the kenjutsu method.

[Lucas]

if we break down the word itself: boken.

you have 'bo' and you have 'ken'

stick and sword, a boken is of both realms. if your intended purpose for using a boken is to mimic a sword so be it, some like to employ its 'bo' qualities as well.

but this, IMO, is going to be up to the practitioner or the style.

[Lucas]

for instance, i have a purple heart wood boken i hand carved myself.

I know for a fact with a blunt strike that boken can break bones. so if i WERE to employ this to actually hurt someone, I would probably go with some blunt strikes.

Yes, i know, this goes outside the reason for using a boken, to be able to practice in a sparring format the use of your sword. (solo practice, I prefer live blade) But it is still an actuality of what CAN be done with a boken.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No one is disputing the effectiveness of the bokken as a weapon, we are discussing how it should be used in training to "simulate" a live blade, no?

[Knifefighter]

That is like asking who said a practice knife is suppose to represent a real knife.

Would a practice knife be effective in a real fight? Not very.

Boken, on the other hand can be quite effective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Would a practice knife be effective in a real fight? Not very.

Boken, on the other hand can be quite effective.

Not as effective as a real knife, no, but a wooden one or an aluminim would still be very effective in the right hands, just not used liek a knife.
And yes, I just made your point, but my point was that YES the bokken is a fine weapon but if you are gonna train it like a sword, you have to train it like a sword.

[Lucas]

Well, originally, I was more just along the lines of using the boken in a full contact sparring situation, and wondering if the Dogbrothers did this.

But the technicalities of the intended purpose of using a boken are, IMO, correct the way you are describing them.

However, I would also like to point out that with the decline in the need for the use of swordplay, the intended purpose of using the boken soley to mimic and practice actual swordplay is one primarily for tradition's sake.

Even though I love the sword, I dont need to know how to use it.

I think its along those lines that the motivation behind the man wielding a boken may differ quite a bit from the traditional and "correct" usage of the stick.

dont get me wrong, i dont in any way deny what you are saying about the correct usage of the boken, i whole heartedly agree that traditionally you are 100% in the right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, originally, I was more just along the lines of using the boken in a full contact sparring situation, and wondering if the Dogbrothers did this.

But the technicalities of the intended purpose of using a boken are, IMO, correct the way you are describing them.

However, I would also like to point out that with the decline in the need for the use of swordplay, the intended purpose of using the boken soley to mimic and practice actual swordplay is one primarily for tradition's sake.

Even though I love the sword, I dont need to know how to use it.

I think its along those lines that the motivation behind the man wielding a boken may differ quite a bit from the traditional and "correct" usage of the stick.

dont get me wrong, i dont in any way deny what you are saying about the correct usage of the boken, i whole heartedly agree that traditionally you are 100% in the right.



I don't know if using the bokken as a stick is "better", it might be a case od just "different".
Question of trying it out and seeing which one works for you better.