Tong War video-1875 san francisco

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCJdtrdgjCE

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCJdtrdgjCE

thanks for the link. I read about a tong war around 1900...the white reporter sat on a balcony drinking tea while one gang lined up on one side, and the other manned up on the other side of the intersection...when the light went green they battled...or something like that, straight out of "Big trouble in little China":)

[hskwarrior]

yeah thats some crazy sheet

but i really loved the old pics of chinatown, but the history is incredible.

those pics date back to around the 1800's did you see the guy with the butterfly knives? i wonder who he was.

frank

[Mano Mano]

Frank, I’ve put the picture of the swordsman on the attachment.

[CLFNole]

That is one crazy looking dude.

[Mano Mano]

That is one crazy looking dude.
he still takes a good photo.

[CLFNole]

Oh yeah it is a good picture but those eyes. :eek:

[southernkf]

I could be wrong, but that building in the background looks similar to the ones in Marysville, which the suey sing have a branch. I wonder.....

[hskwarrior]

it definately says gung fu people were in america prior to Lau Bun, but i want to know who that guy is.......and thats around 1875.....Jeong Hung Sing was still alive then.

[hskwarrior]

mano mano, where'd you find that pic?

thanks for posting it.

[Mano Mano]

I found it by accident a few months ago on the Online Archive of California (http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb48700346/?&brand=oac).
I was originally looking information on early American & Filipino boxers.
What I find interesting about the Butterfly knives is they seem to be designed more for stabbing than slashing. Another interesting thing in the photo is behind him on the ground is a staff & under the staff is what I had originally thought was a tiger fork however there seems to be only one outside prong & some sort of prong or blade under the staff, so what ever the other weapon is a mystery to me.

According to the information on another link it was taken at 678 Mission Street, San Francisco, CA

[Eddie]

mission street? isnt that Franks hood?

Im a bit suspicious about that photo. The lighting and picture quality seems a little to good for somehting taken in the late 1800's or early 1900's

[hskwarrior]

yeah, thats my hood, and i guess gangster sheets been going on in the mission since 1875!!! hahahaha

[hskwarrior]

no, i think the historical society is on mission street

lol

[Mano Mano]

Frank any idea on how the Chinese population in San Francisco was made up at that time, were they mostly Southern or Northern Chinese.

[hskwarrior]

since mandarin isn't really used that much in sf, i feel but don't know for sure that most came from southern china.

but don't quote me on that

[Mano Mano]

I had a feeling the guy in the photo was southern Chinese when I originally saw the butterfly knives.
It would be nice to think he was CLF however for that time frame he could be of any Southern system CLF, Hung Gar, White Crane or even some unknown family/clan fighting system.

[hskwarrior]

very true very true.

its nice to wonder.......but i wish someone could say, hey, thats my uncle....and he did do the ? style of gung fu.

but, yeah, i think southern too.

[CLFNole]

Yeah definately southern, northern styles don't use butterfly knives unless it was something added later during more modern times.

[WanderingMonk]

overwhelming majority early chinese immigrants to US were from southern China. That's where they got most of the "coolie" (which is a english transliteration of the Chinese term for bitter labor or people who do hard work) for the railroad construction.

In Iris Chang's book on early Chinese immigration into the states, she mentioned (If my memory serves) over 60% to 80% of the early immigrants were from Toishan of Guangdong, China. This was pre-wwII immigration. I think that's where I got that bit of info.

[Eddie]

in my country the term Coolie was used to refer to Indian (from India and pakistan) people. For pretty much similar reasons I guess. It was one of the things Ghandi stood up against.

Sadly, the term made itself into our language and culture, and has become pretty much an accepted term. Although some people now protest against it.

[htowndragon]

hey thats my uncle and he did the "slash you with my butterfly knives" style of hop gar.

[mok]

hey thats my uncle and he did the "slash you with my butterfly knives" style of hop gar.

Way up until the mid-80's, the majority of chinese immigrants in the U.S. and Canada were Cantonese, with some Toishan and Fukkienese.

This is also true for overseas chinese in general, as Canton and Hong Kong were the gateways to the West. In late 80's early 90's this changed as china opened-up its emigration policies. I remember way-up until the mid-eighties, no one even spoke mandarin in chinatown - it was cantonese everywhere.

Since the HK handover, the majority of chinese arriving to the States or Canada are now skilled immigration from the mainland. Most of these are highly educated and come from University centers such as BeiJing, Shanghai, etc.

[hasayfu]

This is bit of an interest for me.

Mok, I think up to the 50s, a majority of Chinese in North America were from "Say Yup" (The four counties) of which Toisan was a major contributor. In the 50's, there was some act of congress that enticed a lot of "Sam Yup" people to come over (mainly from Hong Kong) which is where the Cantonese is from. In the 80s, we got a large wave from Taiwan and this started the mandarin wave. They tended to be more affluent and moved into North American suburbs as opposed to the chinatowns. Now in 2000, there is an influx from Mainland and other asian chinese. These are both affluent and not.

The photo looks like a street performer. The lighting does look good but it's also day time. There were definitely kung fu people in SF way back. One of my Si-dai's grandfather had an article written up about him in the 30s. It was a "detective" magazine that was popular in the time. Plus, wasn't the way Lau Bun got to SF "by invitation?" Do you think he was the first? That's a question.

My grandparents came to SF from toisan in 1905. After the "Quake" they moved to Oakland. So I have a lot of interest in Chinese American history but little direct ties to SF.

[GeneChing]

It was in this rather nice book that was a collection of vintage photos of Chinatown. Unfortunately, I cannot remember what the title of the book was at all. That was the only martial pic in the book, and I thought about investing in it since it was such a nice photo, but didn't. It's hard to buy a photo book for just one photo. Plus it would have disappeared into my library, which I once again must trim soon. Of course, had I bought it, I would be super cool right now, if I could bust out the title of the book. It was not meant to be... :(

[hskwarrior]

let me clarify this.........in regards to Lau Bun and his arrival to the United States in the 1920's, there were NO gung fu SCHOOLS or it being taught to anyone here in america.

since the after the mid 1850's many chinese have come to our country, with gung fu being as old as it is, it would be a rediculous idea to believe Lau Bun was the first on american soil to know gung fu..........

but he was the first to begin teaching it here. There are NO other schools prior to Lau Bun's arrival.

in saying that, i believe that it was more southern, because my sigung is Say Yup.

Lau Bun was Toi San. and sorry, I don't believe Lau Bun was invited to come here.......




hsk

[hskwarrior]

in america during the early 1920 and the following decades, Lau Bun was the first in the US known to be teaching chinese gung fu.........Its a toss up but the next is either wong ark yuey or T.Y. Wong.............for many years it was just these three that were known then.......

but i will say this, TY wong made it to TV before Bruce Lee did.

anyways out here in sf......its either Say Yup or Sam Yup.

i forget, which is the dialect that slurs their words?

[TenTigers]

when and where wa sTY Wong in TV doing Gung-Fu? (this is cool)

[hskwarrior]

I have both of T.Y. Wongs books, and in one of the pics theres a reporter talking to him on a TV set....it gives the dates, either late 50's or early 60's but not much more is said about that.

[buddajoe]

the "sword dancer" is a photograph by Arnold Genthe cir. 1895-1906. it is part of his "Tradesman" portfolio. besides being in the California historical society it is also part of the Bancroft collection, Berkeley. when i first saw this picture in the 70's i was told that the subject was a bodyguard for Dr. Sun. i could never verify this. the knives are great but may have been common. attached is a police photo of confiscated weapons during that period.

[Kaylun]

in "Genche's" photographs of San Francisco's old China Town the man is said to be Mountbanks Pekin Knife man called Sung Chi Liang nickname Da Niu (big Ox) and that he sold Dit Da Jow

[Mano Mano]

in "Genche's" photographs of San Francisco's old China Town the man is said to be Mountbanks Pekin Knife man called Sung Chi Liang nickname Da Niu (big Ox) and that he sold Dit Da Jow
If he entered the US legally, should there be some official record of him with more information of maybe where he came from.

[GeneChing]

One of our forum lurkers sent me this via email. He bought the book just for that photo, just like I was going to do but didn't have the money at the time.


GENTHE'S PHOTOGRAPHS OF SAN FRANCISCO'S OLD CHINATOWN
Photographs by Arnold Genthe, Selection and text by John Kuo Wei Tchen

P. 28 is the photo of the man with the butterfly knives

p.29 has this description of Plate 9 (picture on p. 28):
"The Mountainbank," "The Peking Two Knife Man," "The Sword dancer" - Genthe's various titles for this portrait of Sung Chi Liang, well known for his martial arts skills. Nicknamed Daniu, or "Big Ox," referring to his great strength, he also sold an herbal medicine rub after performing a martial art routine in the street. The medicine, tiedayanjiu (tit daa yeuk jau), was commonly used to help heal bruises sustained in fights or falls. This scene is in front of 32, 34, and 36 Waverly Place, on the east side of the street, between Clay and Washington Streets. Next to the two onlookers on the right is a wooden stand which, with a wash basin, would advertise a Chinese barbershop open for business. The adjacent basement stairwell leads to an inexpensive Chinese restaurant specializing in morning zhou (juk), or rice porridge.

Arnold Genthe was a German photographer who took extensive photos of S.F.'s Old Chinatown. I wanted to share this information because I too love the historical nature of this picture. Too bad we have no such records of New York City's Chinatown.

[hasayfu]

let me clarify this.........in regards to Lau Bun and his arrival to the United States in the 1920's, there were NO gung fu SCHOOLS or it being taught to anyone here in america.

since the after the mid 1850's many chinese have come to our country, with gung fu being as old as it is, it would be a rediculous idea to believe Lau Bun was the first on american soil to know gung fu..........

but he was the first to begin teaching it here. There are NO other schools prior to Lau Bun's arrival.

in saying that, i believe that it was more southern, because my sigung is Say Yup.

Lau Bun was Toi San. and sorry, I don't believe Lau Bun was invited to come here.......

hsk

Sounds reasonable to me. I have no knowledge of SCHOOLS in SF. My Si-dai's grandfather was trained in China and did not teach here. For Lau Bun's "invitation" you are the historian so I'll go with your version. I may have gotten my stories mixed up from other Lau Bun folks.

As for slurring words, that would be Say Yup. It's the "peasant" language according to the Sam Yup folks. You still hear a lot of it in SF and Oakland. There is a saying that there are more Toisanese outside of Toisan then inside.

The photos are cool.

[Chosen-frozen]

Wow, it`s hard to imagine no one was teaching kung fu here before the 1920`s. I guess I always assumed that with all the social organizations and the tong activity that went on before then someone was teaching organized groups, even if it was behind closed doors.

That picture of police confiscated weapons reminds me of a pair of long daggers I saw at the Birdcage Theatre Museum in Tombstone AZ. They were basically narrow-bladed butterfly knives w/o the knukle guard. They had been used by a Chinese immigrant who`d killed a man in a fight in the late 1800`s.

[hskwarrior]

ALL the old masters will tell you that prior to lau bun, there was no one teaching.

but, as i said, its rediculous to think that no one from china here i the states during that period didn't know gung fu. if they did, no one was teaching it.

no one has EVER said, so and so was here teaching here before lau bun.......

anyways, i read a tond war story that said hatchet men were chopping this dude up, on the corner right behind this street vendor. the chinese are soo much "its not my business" the street vendor had blood all over his back and acted like he didn't know what happened.

[GeneChing]

Have you seen the new Ken Burns (http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/) The War doc yet? There's this segment where an American vet talks about liberating a concentration camp and how you could smell it for miles. Nevertheless, the neighboring village, who were all well within the stench range, all denied they knew anything about what was happening there. Even the village pastor denied any knowledge, despite the intense odor of disease and death wafting through the entire area. In a later segment, the American vets talk about forcing a neighboring village to bury all the dead from the camp right in the middle of their town square, so they wouldn't forget.

[jigahus]

Have you seen the new Ken Burns (http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/) The War doc yet? There's this segment where an American vet talks about liberating a concentration camp and how you could smell it for miles. Nevertheless, the neighboring village, who were all well within the stench range, all denied they knew anything about what was happening there. Even the village pastor denied any knowledge, despite the intense odor of disease and death wafting through the entire area. In a later segment, the American vets talk about forcing a neighboring village to bury all the dead from the camp right in the middle of their town square, so they wouldn't forget.

This can also be seen in an episode of Band of Brothers.

[The Xia]

I wonder what his Kung Fu was like.