Should I continue?

[hindoshima]

I recently started a tai chi class. The teacher is amazing! He is the best I've ever seen, even from dvds and vcds. He obviously knows the martial applications and has demonstrated fajing. However he says he only teaches the health aspects and won't teach the martial until you are an advanced student(2-4 years).
My question is do you think I should continue this class for 3-4 years or should I use that money for another class( like jeet kune do)?
Thanks!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi hindoshima,

It depends upon what your overall goals are; if it is self-defense there are other ways to learn an efficient means of fighting.

While Tai Chi does have martial applications, the way it is commonly taught does not make it very efficient for self-defense purposes.

If you have more of a long term goal to use the art as a form of personal improvement with self-defense as a secondary purpose, you can't beat a good instructor who knows how to teach from the inside out.

For longer term benefits I have always believed it is better to learn slow and properly than fast and incorrectly.

There is also the possibility to take another form of self-defense while you are training in Tai Chi. Some believe this is not a good idea; I have never subscribed to this narrow view.

[Lucas]

I would definately second all that Scott wrote.

In addition, 2-4 years isnt too long of a time to wait for the goods. If you are confident in your teachers abilities, and you enjoy training Taiji, I would recommend staying where you are and possibly looking for a good coach to work you on self defense in the mean time.

a good boxing instructor can get you some real solid basic skills developed in a realtively quick time frame.

IMO, it will only help.

[chessman71]

I think it all depends on what you want. If you'll be happy training for health as you get more advanced, then everything should be fine. But if you're comparing what he teaches to a jeet kune do class, then my guess is you won't be happy waiting in the taiji class. Maybe you should take JKD instead.

If you do decide to stick with the taiji class, I would try to locate a senior student that the teacher had actually taught fajing and applications to. If you can't find anyone that made it to that level, then maybe the teacher never will really teach that material. Afterall, most people don't stick around long enough to become more advanced.

[jrm]

Tai chi takes time. If a teacher sais that he will start teaching fajing right off the bat, walk out the door. One can't talk about teaching fajing, or most other tai chi martial tools, right off the bat. It's a feeling that needs to be developed over a long period of time (at least a few years with hard practice). Whe he sais that he teaches 'health' first, this probably means proper relaxation, posture, and moving with connectedness. You can't do fajing without a good grasp on all of those things.

[hindoshima]

Thanks!!!!:D:D:D I decided that I will stay with it, and maybe take some other class. Maybe jeet kune do or kajukenbo.


Thanks agian!!!:D:D

[BaguaGoblin]

You could ask him why? It's a reasonable question. You are about to dedicate yourself to something and are only being safe. You can tell him you have been wondering why...

It can take a long time before you grasp the basics and are ready to apply them to combat, and a few years is reasonable for that. Maybe he meant you won't be ready for fighting until then?

You might also want to ask him before taking another class. Some teachers don't like that.

If he is where you want to be skill-wise, I would stick with him. He may be teaching you fighting skills when you don't realize it.

[woliveri]

In addition to other responses he may be:

1. Wanting you to go though a couple of years to build your basic foundation JiBenGong and see how patient you are.

2. He may want to see your character before teaching you things that can hurt ppl. My bagua teacher won't teach someone just because they want to learn or have money. He will see what kind of person you are before teaching this kind of thing.

[hindoshima]

I asked him today in class about the martial stuff. He said that It took him 10 years of 2 hour a day training before he could manifest chi through fajing and being unmovable. Then he said it took him 20 years to get to his presant level. Then he gave me some demonstrations on the difference between internal and external arts and showed me how effective tai chi is as a martial art. It was pretty cool. Good thing I'm young and have lots of time left. Unless I get hit by a car.

[imperialtaichi]

Tai chi takes time. If a teacher sais that he will start teaching fajing right off the bat, walk out the door. One can't talk about teaching fajing, or most other tai chi martial tools, right off the bat. It's a feeling that needs to be developed over a long period of time (at least a few years with hard practice).

Hello Jrm,

I tend to disagree; I believe that the concept and method of fajing and martial art applications should be taught from early on, so the student can walk on the right path even though he/she may not be able to fajing/fight straight away. Of course, to get to the more advanced levels I do agree that it will take many years of dedication.

My own experience is that after I first met my teacher in 1998 in Beijing, I noticed an improvement in my power within a very short time. Most of my students also find improvement within months.

However, I was doing a lot of martial arts before I met my teacher; and most of my students are experienced in Tai Chi and martial arts so my view could be biased.

Cheers,
John

[RAF]

Why not view this purported 2-4 year apprenticeship as the initial foundation for conditioning and development rather than such a pejorative label as "health" or "only for health"?

Health may be one of the outcomes of this 2-4 year conditioning/development foundation---I say maybe because clearly other things affect health too and exercises are simply no guarantee of good health.

If you are sure this is someone you want to spend time with, focus less on the outcome and more on the process and relationship.

2-4 years? People change their minds. Perhaps this is a smoke-screen to see how serious you are about training under him or her.

Good luck in your decision.

[RAF]

Newly translated article by Adam Hsu relevant for the situation that you face, that is, the them e of the article and not necessarily the content. My purpose in posting this is NOT to advise you to take up Tan Tui but simply to illustrate what the process of learning any traditional Chinese art might entail. Good luck!:cool:
______________________________
Lets Talk About Springing Leg (Tan Tui)

By Adam Hsu

(Translated by Bruce J. L. Chang)

My martial art training experience began in childhood when I learned tan tui from my father. It took me three months to go through all ten lines.

Later on, when I began my formal martial art training under Sifu Han Ching-Tang, I started tan tui all over again.

I thought tan tui was like the Bible: all movements were standardized. But to my great surprise, I came to realize that many kung fu styles practiced or interpreted tan tui in different ways.

I remembered my father had advised me that the ten-line tan tui is the curriculum for one year's training: roughly about one line per month, excluding the months of harvest and New Year. So when I relearned tan tui under Sifu Han, I always tried to avoid moving to the next line until I felt totally comfortable with the line I was currently practicing. Sometimes a senior classmate or even Sifu Han would encourage me to move on to the next line. Yes, I was a stubborn student, but not lazy or timid!

The next year when I began to practice other empty-hand forms, and several years later when I began weapons, my progress and accuracy were faster and better than others.

My health was very bad in early childhood but I was still able to practice martial arts with different kung fu teachers, learning different types of styles. I make no claims about my martial arts technique but I did get my health back. Tan tui is the main reason.

After I understood the benefits of tan tui, I not only continued to practice what I had learned but also reached out to study tan tui from different kung fu families. I had plans to collect at least ten and write an essay with the title "The Research and Analysis of Tan Tui."

During this time, I learned the 12-line tan tui of the Jin Wu Association from Sifu Lee Dao-Kwai and also the 16-line tan tui of the Six Harmony Family from my kung fu friend, Mr. Wang Wen-Shan. I also looked into other branches of tan tui from Sifu Kuo Lain-Ing, Sifu Shown Young-Ho and Sifu Yi Chang-Ho.

Later on, the Five Continent Publishing Company released a book on tan tui edited by Mr. Chu Kuo-Hu and Mr. Wu Chi-Ching. They also published the tan tui training materials of the Jin Wu Association.

During this long period of time, my only approach to practicing and teaching tan tui was very straightforward: I simply followed what I had learned, the traditional way.

Later on, I began my martial training in baji quan and pigua zhang under Sifu Liu Yun-Chiao. We published the Wu Tang Martial Art Journal but it did not last. Then, we set up the Wu Tang Kung Fu Training Center. Unfortunately, it was also not quite successful. There were so many reasons for this that I can't go into detail here.

Anyway, from the perspective of martial art technique, I was worried because many beginners don't have the patience to practice fundamental skills and therefore are unable to build a solid foundation for their martial arts. Thus Sifu Liu Yun-Chiao gave me the support to create the Islamic Long Fist curriculum: tan tui, leading to pao quan, leading to cha quan--a step-by-step training sequence to enable beginners to build the foundation necessary for their skills to advance.

I trained several coaches and drew a big poster that described all the classes of different kung fu styles that Wu Tang would offer and put this poster on the wall....

Well, my plan didn't fully go through and it was eventually abandoned.

After I came to the U.S. and started up my "Adam Hsu Kung Fu School," I taught different styles of kung fu, including Islamic long fist. And tan tui was the first form my students were required to practice.

During this time frame, I began to deeply review my approach to training and teaching. This led to the development of my own thoughts and new perspectives on kung fu and its training.

My conclusions were based on the following three sources:
a) The Islamic long fist family provides three well organized forms, covering the training from basic technique to advanced level skills. The training path is very clear and reasonable. This rational approach should not be ignored.
b) My ideas and thoughts were inspired by the many basic training materials I accumulated from different styles of kung fu - for example, Seven Star praying mantis, tong bei quan, er lang quan, xing-yi quan - all of which use tan tui or have composed their own tan tui.
c) My own personal experience, observations and conclusions.

So I improved my school's tan tui training program and set a new standard for the practice of tan tui. This requirement is also applied to all branches of the Adam Hsu Kung Fu School internationally.

After I returned to live in Taiwan in 1996, I made a kung fu presentation that included a clear announcement to the younger generation of students: You need to start with tan tui. Not surprisingly, some young men walked away after hearing this. Later on, the tough, boring tan tui training discouraged some of my new students. But some did persist and continued on with me.

That was a very very "hot" summer for the school. The students worked so hard, sweating in the heat of the sun, kicking the "springing leg." (Note: "Springing leg" is the English translation for "tan tui.")

I set the following rules for my school:
a) Tan tui is the prerequisite course for every style of kung fu, which includes, among others, long fist, bagua zhang, baji quan and taiji quan.
b) Students must not only practice the traditional ten lines of tan tui but also continue to practice the many different ways of advanced tan tui training developed for my school.
c) The tan tui training is combined with our rank and level testing.

Moving into the new century, many things have radically changed and we have no choice but to deal with or accept these differences in our students and in society. As a result of these changes, lots of people look for short cuts to get easy money or live life through their daydreams and fantasies.

The only thing that has never changed is the Spirit behind tan tui. Tan tui's hidden treasure is this: as long as you spend sincere effort on it, you will get what you want.

http://www.adamhsu.com/articles/taiwanblog_tantui.html

[chessman71]

My purpose in posting this is NOT to advise you to take up Tan Tui but simply to illustrate what the process of learning any traditional Chinese art might entail.

But actually, learning tantui before you learn most anything else would help, especially for a serious, long-term student. I'm sure you'd agree. :)

[jrm]

Hi John,

I agree with you that the concepts/method of fajing, or martial applications period, should be taught from the beginning. I was taught it from the beginning and I've found it to be a real challenge to get to the point where I could use fajing within an application. I started in tai chi as a total martial arts beginner four years ago (needed to heal up some weightlifting and basketball injuries) and in my experience watching other beginners I 've seen the same.

Though it is true that students entering tai chi with a solid base from other martial arts have an accelerated learning curve at the beginning due to the established leg strength, balance, and coordination. Usually when some newbie sees the instructor do some good fajing, they get excited and they all want to do it, but then they get a taste of the kind of practice it takes to develop it and their enthusiasm drops. Not many new students stick around. Though it is also my experience that within a few months of good practice it's quite possible to see good results in terms of how you move, and generally, how you physically and mentally feel. The new students who get a good taste of this usually stick around for awhile.

I also should mention that I study Chen style which to me seems a bit more physically demanding than the other styles (not that I'm calling the other styles 'easy'), making it a bit harder to reach a physical comfort level before you can start concentrating well on things like relaxation, which as you know is key to good fajing. I thought I had strong legs going in (apart from my injuries) from all the basketball and weightlifting, but I learned that I certainly didn't have tai chi legs. Acquiring those (and I'm still far from done) has been a humbling experience.

P.S. I enjoy your video posts.. especially useful for students with more English-speaking-challenged teachers like myself

Regards

John

[hindoshima]

:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
I had a job change. Now I work during the tai chi times! My old boss let me have that day off. Now I can't do it anymore!
I could just quit my job, but no.
I was going to put more sad faces in, but it won't let me!:eek: