form+cal=suitable "muscle confusion"

[David Jamieson]

as some of you may know, there is a new term for variation in exercise that is called "muscle confusion".

The idea being that the muscle will maximize itself by being subjected to a variety of structures with varying intensity.

High Intensity, medium weight (dumbells) + body weight exercises combined with form work and regular high intensity cal can make a huge difference in your body form in as little as 3 months (depending if you give it 20-30mins a day vs 50-60mins a day)

anybody have super sets set up like this?

I find with kungfu, and a few forms, it is easier to make a half a dozen routines taht follow these principles.

what about changing up your routine? like isolation cycles in weight lifting, but with whole different types of exercising. any of you do this?

I basically work from a few routines that include:

1.cal - pushups (close and wide), sit-ups, twists, leg raises, pilates, j-jacks, burpees

2.bag work - thai pad work - focus mitt work - drills

3.form - southern style high dynamic tension and speed/force/accuracy

4.transfer work (extrapolation into #2)

5.weight and bodyweight - heavy bag squats/throws/mounts, weighted ring training, dumbbells (variety of upper body).

6. qi gong and meditation

7. walking and conditioning/hardening exercises (sam sing, devices, et al)

sparring is separate but gets worked in when it can. taking different forms depending on choice by participants ie: mma style, wrestling only, kb only, etc.

anyway, I think by doing this kind of thing, kungfu makes a good candidate for using muscle confusion as a way to define and refine the body.

comments?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The Navy Seals have been training like this forever. I applied the concept to my back therapy and had really good results. Now every time I condition (When I condition that is :o ), I use the principal.

The basic idea is to not do the same thing for too long. Mixing it up, works better than the same static routine all the time.

Tale conditioning. Doing 6 sets of 4 exercises. Each set starts with some sort of pull up. Each time it is a different one though. So set 1 is hands facing away, set 2 is hands facing you, set 3 is hands crossed on the bar.

Sets 4,5 & 6 are the same, but with less reps.

Same goes for Pushups, Abb, Oblique, and lower back exercises.

Every 4-6 weeks, you change up the routine with different exercises that work the same muscle groups.

This is why I have been looking to create a huge catalog of body weight only exercises.

[Vash]

as some of you may know, there is a new term for variation in exercise that is called "muscle confusion."

New? I've seen the "principle" for as long as I can remember, back when I read bodybuilding mags when I was nine or 10 years old (wanted to look like the Hulk). I even had a set of five pound dumbbells I would use in the "Weider Confusion Training" method.

It's a good way to train, for both resistance exercise, conditioning, and skill development. 'course, most methods are, for a while.

[sanjuro_ronin]

High Intensity, medium weight (dumbells) + body weight exercises combined with form work and regular high intensity cal can make a huge difference in your body form in as little as 3 months (depending if you give it 20-30mins a day vs 50-60mins a day)


Not sure how you get Hight Intensity with medium weight...certainly not Hight Intensity strength training.

High intensity cardio, like the Tabata protocol or other types of HIIT ( High intensity interval training) can certainly be done while doing forms, but I would probably put forms in the "moderate intensity" category, unless you are into running through your forms and finishing them in 90 seconds ( typically the longest interval in HIIT).

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

unless you are into running through your forms and finishing them in 90 seconds ( typically the longest interval in HIIT).

Reply]
Isn't that how you are "Supposed" to do your forms?

[sanjuro_ronin]

unless you are into running through your forms and finishing them in 90 seconds ( typically the longest interval in HIIT).

Reply]
Isn't that how you are "Supposed" to do your forms?

I would think that would not only depend on the form but also the level of experience and HOW you are suppose to do that form anyways.
So the answer to that question would be NO.

[WinterPalm]

Some forms are designed to take quite some time and are done slowly...ie dynamic tension or the iron ring set we do.
But regular fighting sets create the same pain when done properly, as sprinting. You go through it with maximum power, and Sifu is always telling me to do it harder, and a good pace and you get so tired from doing whole body movements with maximum power! Personally I keep form training separate from any cardio vascular or strength related training as I like to be relatively fresh for the proper exeuction of the set to reap the maximum benefits.
That said, sparring and the like is great when you are tired as you force yourself to rely on technique and maximal bang for you buck type of movements rather than things more common to being fresh and strong.

The crossfit paradigm, pending you know the proper execution of the exercises, is a very awesome methodology for developing these things. So is playing other and new sports, martial arts, etc...they all help in making you better at kung fu. Except extreme variants of bodybuilding and powerlifting...but done supplementally you should only reap the benefits!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I would think that would not only depend on the form but also the level of experience and HOW you are suppose to do that form anyways.
So the answer to that question would be NO

Reply]
No for YOU then, not the rest of us.

[bodhitree]

I would think that would not only depend on the form but also the level of experience and HOW you are suppose to do that form anyways.
So the answer to that question would be NO

Reply]
No for YOU then, not the rest of us.

So you do tabata w/ forms then:rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So you do tabata w/ forms then

I rip through them at an intense pace.

It takes between 65, and 75 seconds to run through the 32 at a medium pace. I have done it in 60 and less when I am really ripping though. Deep stances and all, say it's 60seconds. Rest 20 30, and do it again, and repeat after another rest.

Now, move on to Er Lu, and do it the same way.

Each set is about the same number of moves long, and about the same time to do it fast with real power and intent.

I like to start slow, and build up to fast, do it fast 3 times followed by the next form.

When I gte too tired to complete the full form, I start doing the sections I need the most work on as drills and continue.

Since it is a form, you only do each posture once, or twice in the pattern, so you only do it 3 ties in the series. It's just that there are so many of them you get a huge variety of motion, and a great endurance/ cardio workout, as well as good lower body conditioning.

So forms basically fit the whole muscle confusion principals...especially if you are doing heavy weapons sets as you get weighted resistance for the upper body too.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Here is an abridged version of the form. He's doing it slower to show the moves, but at full speed with all the missing moves you can still beat this time and come in somewhere under 60 seconds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Here it is (abridged) done in under 50 seconds. The extra moves he's skipping will ad another 4-5 seconds done at this pace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1lebnmM1Q&mode=related&search=

This guy is moving pretty good. Try doing that back to back with only a 20-30 second break in between, then going directly to the next form of about the same length, and the next.

Due to the deep stances, if you tell me this is not an intense interval type practice both muscularly, and endurance wise ur on Crack.

And don't forget, it is also done with weighted vests, and weights added to the arms as well.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Here is another version of the set. If you seem to think this does not show a variety of motions (Muscle confusion), and is not both cardio, and muscular intensity (Lower body) you have never done this type of practice and are not qualified to diss it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QFJQqdeLVk&NR=1

[sanjuro_ronin]

So much for the martial application of forms...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So much for the martial application of forms.

Reply]
That comes long before you are using them for over all conditioning.

You start out learning the techniques in the forms as two man drills, and slowly work up to full free sparring with them. Once you know how to fight with them, the last thing you learn is the sequence.

By the time you learn the actual form, you already know how to fight. The form is really for the teachers. All these people teaching them so early and trying to say they teach you to fight are doing it half a$$ed backwards. The form is not a tool to teach you to fight at all. It never was.

Don't forget you also have all the drills, as well as the Chinese weights, pull ups, push ups, sit ups and other body weight exercises to do too. These are what should be done during the learning process.

The difference here is during the learning process you are not really doing interval training. It's more like you pick an exercise, or drill and do as many reps as you can. For example, you do 1800 marching kicks in a 20 minute period. I think this is an area where the Chinese arts can upgrade.

I used a circute training (Muscle confusion) system to heal during my back injury, and I got the best development in conditioning of anything I ever did. So in *My* system, I made the adaptation. Others have as well, at least in the US.

After you are trained you learn the form. It's kind of like a diploma, and it then serves the purpose of sport specific conditioning, final refining and maintenance of body mechanics, and also as a sequential record of the curriculum for the system.

Personally, due to the value of forms as a sport specific conditioning exercise, I have been teaching them at the end of each level, rather than wait until the student is ready to be a teacher like the old days, but it's not untill I see proficient usage of the techniques.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So much for the martial application of forms.

Reply]
That comes long before you are using them for over all conditioning.

You start out learning the techniques in the forms as two man drills, and slowly work up to full free sparring with them. Once you know how to fight with them, the last thing you learn is the sequence. The form is really for the teachers.

Don't forget you also have all the drills, as well as the Chinese weights, pull ups, push ups, sit ups and other body weight exercises to do too.

The difference here is during the learning process you are not really doing interval training. It's more like you pick an exercise, or drill and do as many reps as you can. For example, you do 1800 marching kicks in a 20 minute period. This is an area I think the Chinese arts could use an upgrade.

When I was recovering from my Back injury, I used a circute raining system that changed up the exercises every time you went through the circute. The results were a big improvement over how I developed by doing endless reps of the same exercise all the time, so for my system, I Adapted. I know others in the US have as well.

After you are trained *THEN* you learn the form, kind of like a diploma, and it then serves the purpose of sport specific conditioning, final refining and maintenance of body mechanics, and also as a sequential record of the curriculum for the system.

Personally, due to the value of forms as a sport specific conditioning exercise, I have been teaching them at the end of each level, rather than wait until the student is ready to be a teacher like the old days. Even then though, I want the students to show a good ability to use the techniques first.

[bodhitree]

An interesting read from another forum on similar topic (granted from a powerlifters perspective on a strength and power forum) (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=354062)

[sanjuro_ronin]

An interesting read from another forum on similar topic (granted from a powerlifters perspective on a strength and power forum) (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=354062)

As MA we tend to have to remember that sport specific strength training is one thing and general ST is another.
An din terms of general ST, variety is not a bad thing at all.
Pure strength, muscular endurance, explosive strength, etc. these are things that have specific programs when one is a dedicated ST athlete, but we must remember that when we ADD ST to COMPLIMENT our MA we are doing just that, complimenting.
Sure we can periodize and phase our ST, but in terms of general ST we really don't have to.