Human Weapon/MMA Episode

[banditshaw]

Any of you guys see this episode?
I thought it was really good.
Lots of info from all camps.
Plus it's got the Natural and Bas in it, what more could you ask for?
It was cool to see Cung Le represent as well.

[HOKPAIWES]

My fav part was watching Rico bent over, hands on knees sucking air like he was near death at the end of couple quick and light rounds with a rookie who was green as they come.

:D

[AmanuJRY]

I liked the training session with Eddie Bravo, obviously it did Jason some good.:D
And the session with Josh Barnett.

Good episode.:cool:


...they should have done ones on Sambo and San Da, instead of the ones on Krav Maga and MCMAP.

[hafoc]

I liked the training session with Eddie Bravo, obviously it did Jason some good.:D
And the session with Josh Barnett.

Good episode.:cool:


...they should have done ones on Sambo and San Da, instead of the ones on Krav Maga and MCMAP.

Let's hope they are saving those systems for future episodes.

[Royal Dragon]

I think it was interesting that the only place they had a real win was in the MMA venue. All the traditional matches they fought, they did not do so good.

[BlueTravesty]

that's cuz they didn't want the TMA guys to lose face:rolleyes: if they wanted to they coulda totally whooped those thai guys.

Also the earth is flat.

[Royal Dragon]

One thing I got from the series, Muy Tai is a LOT tougher in Thailand, than here.


I think that what is done here in MMA is a watered down version.

[LeeCasebolt]

One thing I got from the series, Muy Tai is a LOT tougher in Thailand, than here.


I think that what is done here in MMA is a watered down version.

It's the difference between training Muay Thai vs training Muay Thai, plus BJJ, plus wrestling. I thought that was obvious.

Oh, and Chambers winning an MMA fight shouldn't be too big a shock - he's got a 16-5-1 record, according to Sherdog.

[AmanuJRY]

Oh, and Chambers winning an MMA fight shouldn't be too big a shock - he's got a 16-5-1 record, according to Sherdog.

That wasn't the suprise...the suprise was Bill doing so good against Rico.:eek:

[LeeCasebolt]

That wasn't the suprise...the suprise was Bill doing so good against Rico.:eek:

Did you see Ricco? It wasn't that big a surprise.

[Pork Chop]

One thing I got from the series, Muy Tai is a LOT tougher in Thailand, than here.

I think that what is done here in MMA is a watered down version.


a watered down version of mma in the states?
what's more hard core?
money's there so they can afford to do full time training camps.

the difference in thai's the difference between living in a camp and training for a couple hours whenever you can make it into the gym (for a class).

[Royal Dragon]

No, Muy Tai is watered down here, not MMA. It's a much tougher art in Thailand.

[Pork Chop]

No, Muy Tai is watered down here, not MMA. It's a much tougher art in Thailand.

bull
i've had thai coaches
my buddies have gone to thailand to train (just this summer in fact)
the training was the same drills
the same training implements

if anything, the attitude's a little more relaxed because they have so much more time to train and aren't trying to fit a day's worth of training in an hour or two.
it's definitely a different lifestyle though: sleeping at camp, waking up to go for a jog, working out for a few hours, eat, take a nap, train for a few more hours, eat, watch some tape, and go to sleep to start all over again the next day.

Old style techniques pay more in the ring btw; like that hanuman punch and spinning attacks. So if camps in the US don't teach them, it's because the techniques are harder to pull off and people need to get the basics first.

Who are the thai coaches you've been checking out to make claims that their stuff is watered down? Just curious.

[Royal Dragon]

if anything, the attitude's a little more relaxed because they have so much more time to train and aren't trying to fit a day's worth of training in an hour or two.

Reply]
Exactly, they only train it an hour or two. they will never be as good that way. Not to mention much of thier time is devoted to BJJ, which again, prevents them form EVER getting as good as the kids in Thailand who do this all day.

Who are the thai coaches you've been checking out to make claims that their stuff is watered down? Just curious.

Reply]
None, I am watching the crap the pass off as Muy Thai in the UFC compared to what the guys in the actual live in Muy Thai camps in Thailand itself were doing.

I don't need to "Talk to coaches" to look at two athletes and see one sux, and the other is really good.

[Pork Chop]

Forget it I think we have a misunderstanding.

Standup in mma is poor, that's a complaint many people who train stand up full time have been making for years.

Go see guys who fight Thai full time and then make a judgment on the level of thai in the states.

[brothernumber9]

MTV had a guy named Kit Cope (?) on their "True Life" series who was a Muay Thai champion and won in Thailand against a Burmese fighter. But since, is only 1-4 in MMA.

[Pork Chop]

MTV had a guy named Kit Cope (?) on their "True Life" series who was a Muay Thai champion and won in Thailand against a Burmese fighter. But since, is only 1-4 in MMA.

Kit Cope's a Master Toddy fighter. Master Toddy's a pretty good trainer, but he's famous for blowing up his fighter's records and sandbagging them against lesser competition, when it suits him. I saw that bareknuckle match on MTV and his opponent was not much to speak of. I'd say Kenny Florian's muay thai was about on Kit's level in their fight. Florian's a Sityodtong Boston fighter and has respectable muay thai. Bang Ludwig's another guy with decent muay thai too. There are a few decent guys out there, it's just annoying that the other 95% all over hype their stand up skills, just because they kick thai pads a couple times a week, only to come out and s*ck.

[brothernumber9]

I see. I guess I bought into the hype machine unaware. It happens.

[Shaolin Wookie]

bull
i've had thai coaches
my buddies have gone to thailand to train (just this summer in fact)
the training was the same drills
the same training implements

if anything, the attitude's a little more relaxed because they have so much more time to train and aren't trying to fit a day's worth of training in an hour or two.
it's definitely a different lifestyle though: sleeping at camp, waking up to go for a jog, working out for a few hours, eat, take a nap, train for a few more hours, eat, watch some tape, and go to sleep to start all over again the next day.

Old style techniques pay more in the ring btw; like that hanuman punch and spinning attacks. So if camps in the US don't teach them, it's because the techniques are harder to pull off and people need to get the basics first.

Who are the thai coaches you've been checking out to make claims that their stuff is watered down? Just curious.

Ummm.....the difference is that the coaches in Thailand have 100X more experience, dude. They've been in way more professional fights throughout their life than any Westerner, and they've coached more boxers than any Western coach. It's all they know.

Plus, the spartan living conditions toughen you up.

[BruceSteveRoy]

Plus, the spartan living conditions toughen you up.

in the book a fighter's heart sheridan says that since mma's big boom and the interest in muay thai has been so big that camps that used to be really tough and have awful living conditions now are like hotels and they have jacuzzis and stuff like that for the guys training. and the training is less intense (at least for the foreigners). when he first trained there though it was pretty dismal. i guess they have to accomodate the market forces just like anybody else. maximize profit by making the foreign fighters more comfortable.

this is not to imply that the thai fighters in thailand are somehow softer just that times are changing.

[diego]

Kit Cope's a Master Toddy fighter. Master Toddy's a pretty good trainer, but he's famous for blowing up his fighter's records and sandbagging them against lesser competition, when it suits him. I saw that bareknuckle match on MTV and his opponent was not much to speak of. I'd say Kenny Florian's muay thai was about on Kit's level in their fight. Florian's a Sityodtong Boston fighter and has respectable muay thai. Bang Ludwig's another guy with decent muay thai too. There are a few decent guys out there, it's just annoying that the other 95% all over hype their stand up skills, just because they kick thai pads a couple times a week, only to come out and s*ck.


north american muay thai fight culture is gaye like marven's last name...asked a thai older chap i worked with if he did mt back home and his reply was no...i asked why he said his family needed to eat so he worked...if he got in a fight he buys a gun, mt is not a sport but a trade for thai's

i'm at the beach and buddy with a gut is all like you do martial arts i do jj and muay thai mma blah blah, he trained in a camp in thailand etc...i'm all yeah i do kung fu my buddy is into the mma scene, **** is cool...tottally disregards i said i do kung fu and goes on about jujitsu and how tough muay thai is...so i get bored of buddy talking and go by the water and practise my kicks and foot work for a half hour...when i'm done buddy comes up all what style do you do, wow you kick good, i gotta train more blah blah:rolleyes: i thought you trained in a muay thai camp!? you tuff and **** lol

yeah thai kids train everyday since 8 years old, so they can do ten kicks to the head in four seconds....the average mma guy picked up thai in 1998...gaurantied they were graduating around then...they all have chickelegs topheavy and **** they need to master horse stance or at least do more squats...they need to master standing splits. the fact that they are a foot taller and 40-60 pounds heavier than a thai champ makes it look like their roundkicks are good on a heavy bag...really they are not, thai kids have been training them for at least ten years longer...fighting with them since they were 12

imo if mma guys had that skill, it wouldn't go to the ground so much!...none of them can pull off 3 kicks to the head like a slim thai champ can...their twitch fibers in the lower plane just isn't there.:)

[Pork Chop]

north american muay thai fight culture is gaye like marven's last name...

Excuse me?
in case you didn't see the profile pal, i do muay thai.
i've had thai trainers from thailand, american trainers that have come through fairtex camps, and american trainers that have spent significant time in thailand.
I think you need to check yourself before you start slinging insults.
I've got some people up in your neck of the woods you may want to talk to if you want to see real stuff.


asked a thai older chap i worked with if he did mt back home and his reply was no...i asked why he said his family needed to eat so he worked...if he got in a fight he buys a gun, mt is not a sport but a trade for thai's

Yeah I run into this a lot... Muay Thai puts food on a lot of poor families' tables in Thailand. They ask us why we train. They get surprised when we say it's a hobby, but very few have ever been insulting because they're proud of their culture and anyone celebrating it.


i'm at the beach and buddy with a gut is all like you do martial arts i do jj and muay thai mma blah blah, he trained in a camp in thailand etc...i'm all yeah i do kung fu my buddy is into the mma scene, **** is cool...tottally disregards i said i do kung fu and goes on about jujitsu and how tough muay thai is...so i get bored of buddy talking and go by the water and practise my kicks and foot work for a half hour...when i'm done buddy comes up all what style do you do, wow you kick good, i gotta train more blah blah:rolleyes: i thought you trained in a muay thai camp!? you tuff and **** lol

So ummmm all NA muay thai stinx coz of some random dude you met on a beach?
:confused:



....the average mma guy picked up thai in 1998...
blah blah blah blah blah

Again, comparing mma to thai ain't gonna cut it.
Most mma has ****poor thai boxing by even north american muay thai standards.

Yes most thai kids go to camp early; but they also retire in their early twenties once they no longer need to fight to eat- or once they pay off their family's debt.

Thai fighters in thailand do not do horse stance.

Tell Mike Mcdonald (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDR2AWiD38o) that he has weak kicks, or that NA muay thai is ghey, i dare yah. ;)

3 kicks to the head?
what is all this garbage you're posting?
Have you even SEEN Thai boxing?
I don't think I've ever seen a Lumpinee champ triple up on a head kick.

[Pork Chop]

Ummm.....the difference is that the coaches in Thailand have 100X more experience, dude. They've been in way more professional fights throughout their life than any Westerner, and they've coached more boxers than any Western coach. It's all they know.

Plus, the spartan living conditions toughen you up.

I agree with this, it's a valid opinion.
It's like comparing boxing in other countries to the US.
No other country has won world titles on the scale of the US.
If you take the training available from the best trainers in the US and compare them to what's available elsewhere around the world; yes, guys like Freddie Roach & Manny Steward are going to come out on top.
But that doesn't make the boxing available elsewhere around the world watered down.
It's still boxing.

The implication here is that what's available in the US is watered down and ghey, and that's simply not the case.
If you're good and you work hard, you can compete on the international scene. Look at Shawn Yarborough (http://www.shawnyarborough.com).
If it was so bad here, we would not medal at the Muay Thai World Championship Thailand Kings Cup in Thailand, with thais competing.

North American Muay Thai hasn't made as much noise as the Dutch or even as much as John Wayne Parr in Australia but it's still growing and someday we'll make more noise on the international scene.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with this, it's a valid opinion.
It's like comparing boxing in other countries to the US.
No other country has won world titles on the scale of the US.
If you take the training available from the best trainers in the US and compare them to what's available elsewhere around the world; yes, guys like Freddie Roach & Manny Steward are going to come out on top.
But that doesn't make the boxing available elsewhere around the world watered down.
It's still boxing.

The implication here is that what's available in the US is watered down and ghey, and that's simply not the case.
If you're good and you work hard, you can compete on the international scene. Look at Shawn Yarborough.
If it was so bad here, we would not medal at the Muay Thai World Championship Thailand Kings Cup in Thailand, with thais competing.

North American Muay Thai hasn't made as much noise as the Dutch or even as much as John Wayne Parr in Australia but it's still growing and someday we'll make more noise on the international scene.

The time of a systems "homeland" being the place to train for the best quality has long since based in the sport combat world.
Japan is no longer the home of the best Judoka.
Thailand is no longer the home of the best Thai fighters

That is just old passe thinking, heck evne the Thais and Japanese don't think that way and haven't for quite some time.
I think that training in the orient has a certain flavour to it, but don't think that it equals better quality, its just different and exotic.

[SevenStar]

if anything, the attitude's a little more relaxed because they have so much more time to train and aren't trying to fit a day's worth of training in an hour or two.

Reply]
Exactly, they only train it an hour or two. they will never be as good that way. Not to mention much of thier time is devoted to BJJ, which again, prevents them form EVER getting as good as the kids in Thailand who do this all day.

Who are the thai coaches you've been checking out to make claims that their stuff is watered down? Just curious.

Reply]
None, I am watching the crap the pass off as Muy Thai in the UFC compared to what the guys in the actual live in Muy Thai camps in Thailand itself were doing.

I don't need to "Talk to coaches" to look at two athletes and see one sux, and the other is really good.

remember back around 2002, you and I had this same discussion, but it regarded cma and grappling. I told you that cma grappling would never be the equivalent of a pure grappler, because the grappler devotes all of his time to grappling, while the cma guy tries to work "grappling", striking, forms, weapons, etc - they are the original jack of all trades. Of course, pretty much nobody agreed with me. Now you are saying the exact same thing I said, only in reference to mma... anyway, the same thing holds true - the guy training muay thai, wrestling, bjj and boxing won't be as concentrated in any one of those areas as a guy who ONLY trains one of those arts. No secrets there.

[diego]

Excuse me?
in case you didn't see the profile pal, i do muay thai.
i've had thai trainers from thailand, american trainers that have come through fairtex camps, and american trainers that have spent significant time in thailand.
I think you need to check yourself before you start slinging insults.
I've got some people up in your neck of the woods you may want to talk to if you want to see real stuff.



Yeah I run into this a lot... Muay Thai puts food on a lot of poor families' tables in Thailand. They ask us why we train. They get surprised when we say it's a hobby, but very few have ever been insulting because they're proud of their culture and anyone celebrating it.



So ummmm all NA muay thai stinx coz of some random dude you met on a beach?
:confused:




Again, comparing mma to thai ain't gonna cut it.
Most mma has ****poor thai boxing by even north american muay thai standards.

Yes most thai kids go to camp early; but they also retire in their early twenties once they no longer need to fight to eat- or once they pay off their family's debt.

Thai fighters in thailand do not do horse stance.

Tell Mike Mcdonald (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDR2AWiD38o) that he has weak kicks, or that NA muay thai is ghey, i dare yah. ;)

3 kicks to the head?
what is all this garbage you're posting?
Have you even SEEN Thai boxing?
I don't think I've ever seen a Lumpinee champ triple up on a head kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr_8RCngUso

samkor's opponnents look like *****es compared to him...i'm more impressed by samkor's multiple fast twitch muscles than Mr Mcdonald's singular explosions...i've been trying to find the link for the last half hour on buddy with the multiple kicks...i exaggerated three kicks to the head as i was talking **** as i was posting on what i see as popular martial arts within the masses. Dude would throw three head kicks like a boxer combo...i'm pretty sure it would be like fake, kick and he blocks and then hit him again cuz he thinks your done....dude was like sonic hedgehog no exageration.

okay when i said na mt i meant the average kid who watches ufc and thinks i'ma do mt and bjj:rolleyes: i meet kids all the time yeah i know muay thai:rolleyes: word, you caught elbows to the temple and shin kicks to the neck on the regular since you were 12 sweet....meanwhile they only got the beach muscles, no bruce lee frame to their foundation at all. mastering horse stance imo is similar to the thick muscles thais get on their thighs and calves...north americans especially white people are top heavy from boxing, bench pressing and generations of sitting in chairs...poor peeps don't have cars and desks...you master horse you get strong tendons at the ankle, you relax in your feet bones easier and you have more root to not get thrown on your ass when one leg is in the air...after horse you master one leg, and then hand stand etc get full core training not just the beach muscles like the average ufc wannabe do.

significant amount of time in a camp is differant than fighting a lot with thai since you were shorty...real kung fu is way of life, bruce lee would hit the makiwara while eating and talkiing, yang tai chi founder would practise, sleep on an upright board, fall off practise and repeat, that was his life as a body gaurd, always on gaurd...thai kids have crazy stories of basics 8 hours a day 8 days a week and ****:) North Americans don't live like that cuz they ain't built like that, how whole culture was founded on consumerism and entertainment, not honour of the past and commitment for the future.

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKhxShe0RXU&mode=related&search=

look at the seven minute mark...that would be illegal abuse in North America don't you agree?:)

[Pork Chop]

I love samkor, thanx for the links. :)
I want a devastating left kick like his.
To be honest though, he doesn't throw a single combo in the whole first clip. LOL
Even when he doubles up he resets.

I'll try to find the clip with someone who triples up.
Buakaw might in some of his K1-max fights; but a lot of time it's not a true triple- he resets.

Well, we add shin guards & headgear and drop the elbows, so it's not quite as tough, but there are kids in the US goin full out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMr0vIS-mXw

Burmese kids tend to have it rougher than thai kids- less money, fights are bareknuckle with looser rules.

Think we're all in agreement that the average mma noob is pretty clueless. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Doing doubles, triples or more on the pads is one thing and is great for the cardio aspect, you won't do it that same in the ring because of reacting to the opponent, you will ( and should) reset between kicks.

[Pork Chop]

Well he's the one that brought up the 3 kicks.

One interesting story that's happened over the past few years is Yodsenklai Fairtex.
A few years ago Yodsenklai lost to John Wayne Parr, to which he attributed to gassing late in the fight.
Then he started training *gasp* american style high intensity interval training that's found in most gyms in the States. He also used an American nutritionist to clean up his diet.
A year or two goes by and he totally outclasses John Wayne Parr.
They're due to meet up again in the Contender Asia series, which i believe is being filmed in Singapore.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well he's the one that brought up the 3 kicks.

One interesting story that's happened over the past few years is Yodsenklai Fairtex.
A few years ago Yodsenklai lost to John Wayne Parr, to which he attributed to gassing late in the fight.
Then he started training *gasp* american style high intensity interval training that's found in most gyms in the States. He also used an American nutritionist to clean up his diet.
A year or two goes by and he totally outclasses John Wayne Parr.
They're due to meet up again in the Contender Asia series, which i believe is being filmed in Singapore.

HIIT is tailored made for rounds fighting, it should be mandatory in any boxing or MT gym, even in more moderate paced sports like BJJ it would work fine also.

[AmanuJRY]

HIIT is tailored made for rounds fighting, it should be mandatory in any boxing or MT gym, even in more moderate paced sports like BJJ it would work fine also.

Word!:cool:

I think fighter conditioning is the strongest aspect of U.S., and even Russian MA programs...from Olympic boxing and wrestling, all the way down to modern MMA.
Attributes are the foundation of any MA or sport.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Word!:cool:

I think fighter conditioning is the strongest aspect of U.S., and even Russian MA programs...from Olympic boxing and wrestling, all the way down to modern MMA.
Attributes are the foundation of any MA or sport.

Reason being is that, when all else is equal, and in sport combat systems with weight classes equal is about right, conditioning wins matches.
A bxing coach once told me the the difference between an olympic caliber boxer and pro boxer was conditioning, an amateur could very well be as good or even better than a pro for the first few rounds, after that, superiour conditioning takes over.

[SevenStar]

meanwhile they only got the beach muscles, no bruce lee frame to their foundation at all.

bruce lee was an ectomorph - not sure what you are getting at here. many other ectomorphs who train hard would have a similar physique. A mesomorph, being of different body type, would not look anywhere near the same, nor would an endomorph... please elaborate on this "bruce lee frame"


mastering horse stance imo is similar to the thick muscles thais get on their thighs and calves...north americans especially white people are top heavy from boxing, bench pressing and generations of sitting in chairs...

people get top heavy when they don't train everything equally. I bench press a lot, but I also have 28.5 inch thighs - I squat a lot. that has nothing to do with horse stance training or being north american.


poor peeps don't have cars and desks...you master horse you get strong tendons at the ankle, you relax in your feet bones easier and you have more root to not get thrown on your ass when one leg is in the air...after horse you master one leg, and then hand stand etc get full core training not just the beach muscles like the average ufc wannabe do.

with proper set up and timing you won't get thrown on your ass either...


significant amount of time in a camp is differant than fighting a lot with thai since you were shorty...real kung fu is way of life, bruce lee would hit the makiwara while eating and talkiing, yang tai chi founder would practise, sleep on an upright board, fall off practise and repeat, that was his life as a body gaurd, always on gaurd...thai kids have crazy stories of basics 8 hours a day 8 days a week and ****:) North Americans don't live like that cuz they ain't built like that, how whole culture was founded on consumerism and entertainment, not honour of the past and commitment for the future.

bah. Anything is a way of life if you are serious about it. even guys with "beach muscles" it takes A LOT of work to get where they are. I wasn't born with 29 inch thighs - I have been working out for years. that makes it a way of life, no?

[diego]

bruce lee was an ectomorph - not sure what you are getting at here. many other ectomorphs who train hard would have a similar physique. A mesomorph, being of different body type, would not look anywhere near the same, nor would an endomorph... please elaborate on this "bruce lee frame"



people get top heavy when they don't train everything equally. I bench press a lot, but I also have 28.5 inch thighs - I squat a lot. that has nothing to do with horse stance training or being north american.



with proper set up and timing you won't get thrown on your ass either...



bah. Anything is a way of life if you are serious about it. even guys with "beach muscles" it takes A LOT of work to get where they are. I wasn't born with 29 inch thighs - I have been working out for years. that makes it a way of life, no?


i don't know you so i can't speak on you...samkor has better kicks than the big guy porkchop posted...the big guy has huge legs...i would rather have samkors nimblesness...maybe the big guy should do less lmuscle building and practise his whipping technique...the average guy learns muay thai and after a lil bit thinks he is good cuz he hits the bag with force similar to muay thai champs...that is because he is twice as big as them, but nowhere as nimble...big is only good for one explosion...as soon as samkor hits he is building force for the next hit before he even sets for it...that takes a lot of time practising the pull back or follow through aspect....most guys don't even get to that level, they get good at execution and than lift weights and get big and feel they are ready to fight....but they don't look as good as samkor...if they are fighting i'm guessing it is to get paid...so look as good as you can, makes sence, no...


bruce lee frame is wiry streetfighter frame...most people don't have it....i'll take my wiry frame and hard bones over beach muscles any day...wiry frame and hard bones stay with you when you are old...it's more work to maintain beachmuscles and beach muscles are useless as there is always gonna be someone bigger...you gotta be as fast as you can and hope buddy isn't on gaurd...besides that buy a gun

again i haven't seen your kicks but i'm guessing you are not as nimble as jackie chan who mastered horse stance when he was twelve along with hand stand and one leg stance on pillars,...bet you he has better balance than you and his kicks look slicker...your not a multimillion dollar action star where peeps pay you to be slick.:)

[SevenStar]

i don't know you so i can't speak on you...samkor has better kicks than the big guy porkchop posted...the big guy has huge legs...i would rather have samkors nimblesness...maybe the big guy should do less lmuscle building and practise his whipping technique...the average guy learns muay thai and after a lil bit thinks he is good cuz he hits the bag with force similar to muay thai champs...

that in itself has nothing to do with size. that is in the big guy's training methods. big guys can be very nimble. Ever watch tyson in his prime?


big is only good for one explosion...

that is false.


as soon as samkor hits he is building force for the next hit before he even sets for it...that takes a lot of time practising the pull back or follow through aspect....most guys don't even get to that level, they get good at execution and than lift weights and get big and feel they are ready to fight....but they don't look as good as samkor...if they are fighting i'm guessing it is to get paid...so look as good as you can, makes sence, no...

you get paid for fighting, not for looking like a fighter. if we were talking about wwe, then I would agree with you on that. the difference in skill level you mentioned is due to his training, not his size.



bruce lee frame is wiry streetfighter frame...most people don't have it....i'll take my wiry frame and hard bones over beach muscles any day...

it's not a streetfighter frame - it's an ectomorph frame. It means he was lanky and had a fast metabolism. no more, no less.


wiry frame and hard bones stay with you when you are old...

all bones get brittle with age. muscle can stay as long as you maintain it, though it is harder with age. I used to work out with a guy who at age 67 could still bench press 275...


it's more work to maintain beachmuscles

as opposed to what? muscle is muscle and it all takes work to maintain. the work is habit. the diet is really the hard part.


and beach muscles are useless as there is always gonna be someone bigger...you gotta be as fast as you can and hope buddy isn't on gaurd...besides that buy a gun

big guy with speed vs little guy with speed... force = MASS x acceleration. What does that mean? the big guy hits harder if there speed is equal or close to equal. that is why fighting has weight classes. A punch from a heavyweight boxer will change a featherweight's world. Why? He has more mass and hits harder.

Being big and being a bodybuilder are two different things, which you may not realize.


again i haven't seen your kicks but i'm guessing you are not as nimble as jackie chan who mastered horse stance when he was twelve along with hand stand and one leg stance on pillars,...bet you he has better balance than you and his kicks look slicker...your not a multimillion dollar action star where peeps pay you to be slick.:)

meh. jackie has been training longer than me. what about samo hung? he has always been a big guy. Nah, bad example... you would try to say his horse stance made him nimble. what about cro cop? or, if we stick to movies, what about gary daniels? He was a light heavyweight kickboxer before he started movies, so he had some size and was fairly nimble.

[diego]

that in itself has nothing to do with size. that is in the big guy's training methods. big guys can be very nimble. Ever watch tyson in his prime?



that is false.



you get paid for fighting, not for looking like a fighter. if we were talking about wwe, then I would agree with you on that. the difference in skill level you mentioned is due to his training, not his size.




it's not a streetfighter frame - it's an ectomorph frame. It means he was lanky and had a fast metabolism. no more, no less.



all bones get brittle with age. muscle can stay as long as you maintain it, though it is harder with age. I used to work out with a guy who at age 67 could still bench press 275...



as opposed to what? muscle is muscle and it all takes work to maintain. the work is habit. the diet is really the hard part.



big guy with speed vs little guy with speed... force = MASS x acceleration. What does that mean? the big guy hits harder if there speed is equal or close to equal. that is why fighting has weight classes. A punch from a heavyweight boxer will change a featherweight's world. Why? He has more mass and hits harder.

Being big and being a bodybuilder are two different things, which you may not realize.



meh. jackie has been training longer than me. what about samo hung? he has always been a big guy. Nah, bad example... you would try to say his horse stance made him nimble. what about cro cop? or, if we stick to movies, what about gary daniels? He was a light heavyweight kickboxer before he started movies, so he had some size and was fairly nimble.
tyson was top heavy in his prime his ankles are mad skinny he couldn't kick for **** compared to a samkor...he doesn't have the frame

abel had a better lower frame than anthony in that fight...anthony has really big upper body and neck skinny chicken leges for his frame...able's upperbody was wack compared to jackies iron wire build, but anthony had a hard time pushing able off his base...able actually punched him down


i don't work on horse stance, but i'm going to cuz i'm at that point...i've been doing crane stance work since 1998...when i was lifting weights as a teen i was athletic but not nimble like the classic orientals...now i am nimble and mad bigger than any kung fu master or thai champ or japanese karate sensei...i have iron wire streetfighter constructionworker frame...do construction for ten years wearing steel toes walking thirty flights of stairs every day hugging 500 pounds to your body you get a good horses stance ie you are more nimble than the average north american beach muscle training sports athlete!...and you prolly hit harder...good kung fu form gives you that tone you get doing construction...all the constant contraction in motion, flexibility on one side/weight training on the other from constantly being soft and hard at the same time etc, the average north american sport training methods don't do that. If you train your form religiously and it is good form you will be hard until you die, **** i cured bronchitis doing my crane basics in the air, imagine when i master the form...weight training doesn't even have those qualities.

everyone needs some resistance training we all know that...my kajukenbohop gar forms give you a full bodybuilding exercise for the major muscles used in fighting...been doing it now i'm nimble and my kicks are sweet for a lanky white boy...thai's do reps of their footwork and kicks and knees and they build that lower base...a construction worker does his thing hard for ten years and he gets that lower base training needed to be nimble...kung fu masters standing still in every position and running fast in every fighting position and he gets a full body base training....wrestlers get a good base wrestling in that low horse stance plane but that don't go up much except for throwing so there kic ks wouldn't be that nimble...there punches would be aight cuz they have such heavy upper frame and good at exploding...it's up to the individual to compete...if you don't have that base you are not repping martial art....usually those types that compete are just natural streetfighters and athletes...if you don't get that base you look like **** and i'm not gonna buy your dvd highlights for $49.99

i'm talking reality not training theories...people asked how is able not a real kung fu guy...he didn't rep my kung fu cuz he isn't built like the kung fu standards...jackie chan is traditionally trained since shorty he sets the standard for kung fu conditioning...bruce lee's fire and ambition sets the bar for attitude, unfortunatly kung fu is **** in the west and mad masters have been killed in china for 400 years so we don't have reps like the thai's do....funny to me that thai was the only asian culture to not get ****ed by colonialists and they still have their real martial art...karate is wack kung fu is wack and we all know what the foriegn powers did to them...is that a coincidence....:)something i think about!.

[diego]

if able had jackies iron wire upper body build and worked on his rolling basics, he coulda had a better shot at anthony...able has a horse stance base so he kept ant off him and drove some hard shots to ant's cranium as ant mentioned...if able had jackie's iron wire he wouldn't have gassed...or at least been more nimble to roll lightly on his ear;)

[SevenStar]

tyson was top heavy in his prime his ankles are mad skinny he couldn't kick for **** compared to a samkor...he doesn't have the frame

1. tyson wasn't top heavy. you gotta think about this one though... Look at the tremendous punching power he has:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvZ2roRDPYU

you CANNOT punch as hard as he did with a weak base. his quads and calves were quite strong. As far as kicking, who cares in his case? boxers don't kick. Samkor couldn't punch harder than tyson.


i don't work on horse stance, but i'm going to cuz i'm at that point...i've been doing crane stance work since 1998...when i was lifting weights as a teen i was athletic but not nimble like the classic orientals...now i am nimble and mad bigger than any kung fu master or thai champ or japanese karate sensei...

that was due to training wrong on your part. Describe these workouts you did when you were a teen.



i have iron wire streetfighter constructionworker frame...do construction for ten years wearing steel toes walking thirty flights of stairs every day hugging 500 pounds to your body you get a good horses stance ie you are more nimble than the average north american beach muscle training sports athlete!...and you prolly hit harder...

once again, you are wrong in your assumption. a guy being big doesn't equate to him being a body builder.


good kung fu form gives you that tone you get doing construction...

"tone" is nothing more than residual tension in a relaxed muscle. kind of odd, considering many cma guys talk about how bad tension is...


all the constant contraction in motion, flexibility on one side/weight training on the other from constantly being soft and hard at the same time etc, the average north american sport training methods don't do that.

you REALLY sure about that? you may wanna check into that more.


If you train your form religiously and it is good form you will be hard until you die, **** i cured bronchitis doing my crane basics in the air, imagine when i master the form...weight training doesn't even have those qualities.

I no longer have asthma. Kung fu didn't cure me...


wrestlers get a good base wrestling in that low horse stance plane but that don't go up much except for throwing so there kic ks wouldn't be that nimble...there punches would be aight cuz they have such heavy upper frame and good at exploding...

I am surprised to hear a CMA guy say that. ROOT is what gives him strong punches. possibly not root in the same sense as you guys mystify it up to be, but it's all in coneection to the ground. If tyson was hoisted in the air and I was on the ground, I could hit harder than him because he would have no root.



funny to me that thai was the only asian culture to not get ****ed by colonialists and they still have their real martial art...karate is wack kung fu is wack and we all know what the foriegn powers did to them...is that a coincidence....:)something i think about!.

what about burma, cambodia and malaysia? indonesia? the phillipines? there is more to asia than just china, japan and korea...

[diego]

1. tyson wasn't top heavy. you gotta think about this one though... Look at the tremendous punching power he has:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvZ2roRDPYU

you CANNOT punch as hard as he did with a weak base. his quads and calves were quite strong. As far as kicking, who cares in his case? boxers don't kick. Samkor couldn't punch harder than tyson.



that was due to training wrong on your part. Describe these workouts you did when you were a teen.




once again, you are wrong in your assumption. a guy being big doesn't equate to him being a body builder.



"tone" is nothing more than residual tension in a relaxed muscle. kind of odd, considering many cma guys talk about how bad tension is...



you REALLY sure about that? you may wanna check into that more.



I no longer have asthma. Kung fu didn't cure me...



I am surprised to hear a CMA guy say that. ROOT is what gives him strong punches. possibly not root in the same sense as you guys mystify it up to be, but it's all in coneection to the ground. If tyson was hoisted in the air and I was on the ground, I could hit harder than him because he would have no root.




what about burma, cambodia and malaysia? indonesia? the phillipines? there is more to asia than just china, japan and korea...
dude you're lighting candles lol...i had chronic bronchitis for five months...couldn't stand the penicillin, musta took it 6 differant times...three months out of 5 i was on penicillen...i quit working and did my crane basics fulltime...the bronchitis is still there but i can control it at will now, and i smoke mad green...**** does your asthma relate to my reality of chi healing?.

i played basketball, lifted weights, got in rumbles with the natives, wrestled with my boys, boxed with my brother and cousin...now i got good jing from crane style chi training so i'm more nimble.

[SevenStar]

dude you're lighting candles lol...i had chronic bronchitis for five months...couldn't stand the penicillin, musta took it 6 differant times...three months out of 5 i was on penicillen...i quit working and did my crane basics fulltime...the bronchitis is still there but i can control it at will now, and i smoke mad green...**** does your asthma relate to my reality of chi healing?.

I suppose it can. I was taking various meds and at one time had to get 17 shots in my stomach from a really bad attack. you had it for a few months, I had it for years...


i played basketball, lifted weights, got in rumbles with the natives, wrestled with my boys, boxed with my brother and cousin...now i got good jing from crane style chi training so i'm more nimble.

which is fine and good, but that is not the only way to obtain that, nor is that any guarantee that you are more nimble than a judoka who powerlifts.

out of that whole post the only thing you replied to was my sentence about asthma??

[diego]

I suppose it can. I was taking various meds and at one time had to get 17 shots in my stomach from a really bad attack. you had it for a few months, I had it for years...



which is fine and good, but that is not the only way to obtain that, nor is that any guarantee that you are more nimble than a judoka who powerlifts.

out of that whole post the only thing you replied to was my sentence about asthma??

i never said there is only one way...i said mad peeps don't do the hard way...all my posts relate to my impression of buddy at the beach who i described in the first post, and it all relates to the fact that people lack traditional training in the west in general...it's false advertising

if i say muay thai beats every asian stand up art you would join up, but most don't get to a samkor level of real muay thai...i see athlete kids at the reccenter posing there elbows like a ufc champ but they have no base and they are working elbow form....i see the mass consumption of muay thai as on par with the lack of fighting skills with tcma's. I question the reality of marketing real muay thai in a western market...boxing and judo dudes get hurt....by accident right, he didn't break his fall and tore something hanging on, or in boxing he dropped his gaurd and buddy hit his sweet spot so you get the medic...thai boxing fuq you think is going to happen if you grab his neck and elbow his temple...blood is coming out of mouths on the regular...that is a ghettoe art at its highest level and i feel wholeheartedly that if you claim you do mt and don't fight like samkor does than you just as corney as the mass of modern kung fu men not promoting ****...why you wanna go and promote not what is just to build a rep:).

so yeah that's my point the mass don't dance like the orientals do...i mean **** even if china stepped they **** up they all too small to be built to mess with one of our tysons or rampage jacksons, unless they super golden steel roid up like Bolo...so the average big guy thinks ah these guys are small it's not that serious i'll just do some basics and my weight will carry me through...it's the differance between scrapping and fighting, you scrap to lose or win usually it is ego driven such as a purse or rep is involved you fight to compete onsome technical ****...most dudes is scrappers...teach a scrapper to dance like how ali outshines his peers and it's on like donkey kong.

matt hughes is who i used as referance for wrestlers prolly have good base, all that upper body strength wouldn't take long to convert into driving punching power...it's not hard to touch somebody...i'd like to see the mass do three proper tornadoe kicks as meant to be practised...dudes just ain't got the back for that unless you grew up flipping **** mad acrobatic.

I'll get back to some of your ideas later.1