Jump in or step back?

[WoodenYummy]

Maybe the answer to this seems obvious to some of you, but I have noticed that TWC teaches you to step "back and off the line" from an attack, but my earlier WC training taught us to explode toward the center when you even suspected an attack was coming... Whats your opinion on this? Does TWC just teach the step back and off the line principle for beginners, and later progress to attacking first? Just curious. I've also noticed that TWC has the preference of staying on the outside, while my earlier training focused on exploiting the inside... I have high levels of respect for both styles I have studied under, this is not an attempt to discredit TWC.

Let the games begin!

[couch]

Maybe the answer to this seems obvious to some of you, but I have noticed that TWC teaches you to step "back and off the line" from an attack, but my earlier WC training taught us to explode toward the center when you even suspected an attack was coming... Whats your opinion on this? Does TWC just teach the step back and off the line principle for beginners, and later progress to attacking first? Just curious. I've also noticed that TWC has the preference of staying on the outside, while my earlier training focused on exploiting the inside... I have high levels of respect for both styles I have studied under, this is not an attempt to discredit TWC.

Let the games begin!

As far as I understand it, there's two doors:
1. Front

2. Side

This is common in both systems. Two flavours of the same ice cream.

Spend more time in TWC and I think you will see the differences and similarites.

Where are you studying TWC? Victor et al would be helpful in discussing this.

[anerlich]

but I have noticed that TWC teaches you to step "back and off the line" from an attack

I've only been doing TWC for 18 years, but no one in the system has tried to teach me this yet.

You are either crashing the line (straight in) or stepping off to the side and forward to in effect slip the attack.

Some WC styles say "never step back"; I would say "never say never", but generally speaking you are trying to move in on the guy at an angle.

Who is teaching you this?


I've also noticed that TWC has the preference of staying on the outside

That's true.

[couch]

I've only been doing TWC for 18 years, but no one in the system has tried to teach me this yet.

You are either crashing the line (straight in) or stepping off to the side and forward to in effect slip the attack.

Some WC styles say "never step back"; I would say "never say never", but generally speaking you are trying to move in on the guy at an angle.

Who is teaching you this?



That's true.

True that TWC prefers the outside? I personally prefer the outside! :)

[WoodenYummy]

Wouldn't a T-step be "back and off the line"?

[anerlich]

Wouldn't a T-step be "back and off the line"?

No.................

[k gledhill]

hit ....;)

[YungChun]

hit ....;)
Which version of _ing __un is that? Caveman? I understand this lineage is becoming more popular.. ;)

[YungChun]

Isn' t the TWC Dummy form more or less the same at the VT version?

If so then call me crazy but I think they both use essentially the same tactics in terms of entry... :eek:

[k gledhill]

Answer yourself ...if you try to always be able to hit and deliver the 900lb force of a good leg hit, and maneuver yourself to always be [ in a perfect world ] outside an attacking line of force, trying to do the same 900lb strike back at you :D arms and legs have partners, dont be in the middle of 2 wailing arms , arm - leg
common partners aka 2 ARMs , 2LEGs , etc...when you stand in front of someone they have an equal advantage , like chi-sao. We offer this situation only so we can maneuver out of it [good] ...BUT we dont know where yet , do we ? aha ! I hear lights going on....Im training to react according to my opponents actions, AND use my partners real arm, force to develop the right unity of strike & structure & distances & angles , relative to the attacking side he decides randomly to deliver ....to achieve a simple ability to hit him constantly as he comes at me or goes away from me....and by maintaining my ability to reach with a hit I will do all kinds of things ....step back, step in[but not like a bull], go parallel to and converge in a stalking attack [chum kil] , relentless in its pursuit and pressure. I learn the correct angles , distances through chi-sao ...Seung ma -Toi ma is the beginning of this simple thinking. From over 20 years of seeing various schools, i can tell you that many never get past facing squarely , now what do we do ? thinking. So it become s a face-on arm chase world , sticking to arms ....no movement required later in knife world ..hear the blades sharpening in the distance they sharpen for thee...
VT is the method of systematically teaching a constant attacking force a perpetual attack, receiving going with and chasing down ,,, while hitting, kicking in straight lines
that allow a constant forward delivery . This is why we have no round strikes like Thai boxers , boxers, etc... we are training actions symetricaly , that allow us to maintain a full on assault without skipping a beat in a forward attack...forwards doesnt mean a bull charge , it means a constant growing idea of maintaining an strike either through our most basic arm training to develop each arms ability to both deflect and strike in rotation , or by simultaneous, jut -strike, pak-strike, bong -strike ....etc... and any combo that never breaks this simple idea ...hit....but then we ask ourselves how do I do this ? how can i maintain a constant ability to strike through someones defenses even if they have their arms in the way , what if they step towards me ? how can i deflect the arm hitting me AND hit back in the same beat , and keep hitting them with adequate force to stop them ? :D....how do I keep attacking them if they take a step back ? how can I kick them and keep going at them without relenting and giving the attack back to them ? what if they grab my wrists to stop me hitting them ? bil gee.
How can I maintain my vulnerable defensive cover without opening up and trading punches ? rotation of arms along a line ...but it wont work if Im facing them squarely because they dont come in straight lines they come in circles ...ok so start at a perimeter
outside that circle , maneuver in a side stance , shift and move quickly maintaining this circle / perimeter without standing in a lead leg [ commitment to a line] wait for them to commit to you or go after them in converging shifting steps changing directions to throw them off your intended lines or over commitment of their own force , while seeing if they over commit to your moves offering entry..to [B]hit...you can become a fluid free fighter, unbound by this technique or that response ...having simple yet sophisticated strikes that are trained to rotate at high speeds in unison against arms that might not have an ability past grab n jab .... A certain individual won most of his VT fights /challenges within 3 moves....if you take into account he was doing VT multiply the 3 moves x 2 and you begin to see what the guys faced ...6 possible actions delivered in 3 beats ....that includes a single hit = 2 actions elbows in is a basic idea to achieve a punch that seamlessly strikes and deflects in 1 beat. we develop this in chisao not sticking endlessly or trapping a single arm so much it becomes a joke :D
usually done by those who have never hit anyone with enough force to place them 6 feet away thereby rendering any further trapping and sticking as redundant ...
so just hit

oh forgot to add ...ugh ! :D

[YungChun]

Answer yourself ...if you try to always be able to hit and deliver the 900lb force of a good leg hit, and maneuver yourself to always be [ in a perfect world ] outside an attacking line of force, trying to do the same 900lb strike back at you :D arms and legs have partners, dont be in the middle of 2 wailing arms , arm - leg
common partners aka 2 ARMs , 2LEGs , etc...when you stand in front of someone they have an equal advantage , like chi-sao. We offer this situation only so we can maneuver out of it [good] ...BUT we dont know where yet , do we ? aha ! I hear lights going on....Im training to react according to my opponents actions, AND use my partners real arm, force to develop the right unity of strike & structure & distances & angles , relative to the attacking side he decides randomly to deliver ....to achieve a simple ability to hit him constantly as he comes at me or goes away from me....and by maintaining my ability to reach with a hit I will do all kinds of things ....step back, step in[but not like a bull], go parallel to and converge in a stalking attack [chum kil] , relentless in its pursuit and pressure. I learn the correct angles , distances through chi-sao ...Seung ma -Toi ma is the beginning of this simple thinking. From over 20 years of seeing various schools, i can tell you that many never get past facing squarely , now what do we do ? thinking. So it become s a face-on arm chase world , sticking to arms ....no movement required later in knife world ..hear the blades sharpening in the distance they sharpen for thee...
VT is the method of systematically teaching a constant attacking force a perpetual attack, receiving going with and chasing down ,,, while hitting, kicking in straight lines
that allow a constant forward delivery . This is why we have no round strikes like Thai boxers , boxers, etc... we are training actions symetricaly , that allow us to maintain a full on assault without skipping a beat in a forward attack...forwards doesnt mean a bull charge , it means a constant growing idea of maintaining an strike either through our most basic arm training to develop each arms ability to both deflect and strike in rotation , or by simultaneous, jut -strike, pak-strike, bong -strike ....etc... and any combo that never breaks this simple idea ...hit....but then we ask ourselves how do I do this ? how can i maintain a constant ability to strike through someones defenses even if they have their arms in the way , what if they step towards me ? how can i deflect the arm hitting me AND hit back in the same beat , and keep hitting them with adequate force to stop them ? :D....how do I keep attacking them if they take a step back ? how can I kick them and keep going at them without relenting and giving the attack back to them ? what if they grab my wrists to stop me hitting them ? bil gee.
How can I maintain my vulnerable defensive cover without opening up and trading punches ? rotation of arms along a line ...but it wont work if Im facing them squarely because they dont come in straight lines they come in circles ...ok so start at a perimeter
outside that circle , maneuver in a side stance , shift and move quickly maintaining this circle / perimeter without standing in a lead leg [ commitment to a line] wait for them to commit to you or go after them in converging shifting steps changing directions to throw them off your intended lines or over commitment of their own force , while seeing if they over commit to your moves offering entry..to [B]hit...you can become a fluid free fighter, unbound by this technique or that response ...having simple yet sophisticated strikes that are trained to rotate at high speeds in unison against arms that might not have an ability past grab n jab .... A certain individual won most of his VT fights /challenges within 3 moves....if you take into account he was doing VT multiply the 3 moves x 2 and you begin to see what the guys faced ...6 possible actions delivered in 3 beats ....that includes a single hit = 2 actions elbows in is a basic idea to achieve a punch that seamlessly strikes and deflects in 1 beat. we develop this in chisao not sticking endlessly or trapping a single arm so much it becomes a joke :D
usually done by those who have never hit anyone with enough force to place them 6 feet away thereby rendering any further trapping and sticking as redundant ...
so just hit

oh forgot to add ...ugh ! :D
I agree.. But the problem is that we're not seeing it--at that level--in sport fighting.. What we see in sport fighting with WCK is very simple and direct, the 'hose' concept IS in play but some of the other keys like, two or three actions at the same time, use of directness and changing happens very little if at all.. In my own experience working with my good boxer student was that once in a while you get to pull off a 'compound' WCK like move, either outside or inside but the hitting is primary. IME 80%-90% of the expression is striking..

Now if you are fighting 'Ping Lee Ho', who does Southern White Crane (I sparred with a S. White Crane guy a couple of times) All of a sudden you have a madman who is trying to attack, grab and control your arms, while also trying to claw you with his nails and whack your position/balance. NOW all of those WCK tools you DON'T see too much with western fighters comes out in droves... Big dfference in styles...and big difference in expression is natural but the core should be intact, the hose, if it isn't then I'd say it aint really WCK..

[southernkf]

Maybe the answer to this seems obvious to some of you, but I have noticed that TWC teaches you to step "back and off the line" from an attack, but my earlier WC training taught us to explode toward the center when you even suspected an attack was coming... Whats your opinion on this? Does TWC just teach the step back and off the line principle for beginners, and later progress to attacking first? Just curious. I've also noticed that TWC has the preference of staying on the outside, while my earlier training focused on exploiting the inside... I have high levels of respect for both styles I have studied under, this is not an attempt to discredit TWC.

Let the games begin!

I won't speak for any other group but thought I would add my two cents. I think fighting is a bunch of rules of thumb. There isn't a one best way to do something. Some individuals are better at expresing things one way while others are better at another, In a quite limited arena we see that Ali, Forman, Frazier, Liston, Spinks, Lenoard, Tyson, and virtually every fighter had their own nuances and favorite things to do. What works for one person may not work for another.

In my wing chun we don't step back and/or step off the line. We hold ground or eat up space. If we are over powered we may shift the line. For us this works well, but again is only a rule of thumb. We prefer to be in and press forward, often taking the inside. As individuals, most of us prefer the outside, but are told to get comfortable on the inside. Other groups seem to prefer the safety of the outside and work it just fine.

Both approaches are quite valid, though I think the whole system should be geared towards what ever it is you do. The forward brute strength of Frazier very different than the younger elusive Ali and the Rope-A-Dope Ali that fought Foreman. A difference in strategy may require changes in mechanics to perform certain things like stepping to the outside versus shifting while on the inside.

[anerlich]

To elaborate a little more on the T step:

The T step is NOT a backward step. It is often drilled where you step directly SIDEWAYS (i.e. not BACK) with one foot, being the other foot up behind it (I guess if you were really bloody minded you could call that a back step, but it isn't) and then drive forward off that foot into the opponent.

It's a tactic to get to the opponent's flank, moving out of the path of his punch or kick so as to get past it.

In real time, you can step foward with that first foot, instead of to the side, os you are actually moving forward, albeit with a slight arc all the time.

AS Southern KF said, you are trying to move into the opponent, to cut off his options.

TWC teaches moving ot the outside. Wrestling in general advocates getting inside control. There are exceptions in both.