wu mei pai

[Aeturnal]

apparently wu mei and wing chun were both created by ng mui....anyone care to elaborate on the similarities and differences btwn the 2?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I had the opportunity to visit a school teaching Wu Mei several years ago. Classes were being taught mostly by a woman, her husband was the Sifu but apparently was in ill health. I believe that he died sometime soon after and she continued to teach. Unfortunately I do not remember her or his name. I believe the school was in the same area as the Fight House is now in NYC. I think that the only person actively teaching Wu Mei is Ken Long(?) but am not sure.

According to the history presented to me when I visited the school, both Wing Chun and Wu Mei were created by the same person, the nun Ng Mui/Wu Mei. Wing Chun was touted as the beginner training with Wu Mei being the more complete "Advanced" system.

Wu Mei contains several hand forms but does not have Chi Sau per se. The students produce power by a, imo, stamping action with the feet. When demonstrated the students would do a kick by stamping the floor and using the force of the stamp to "rebound" from the floor and kick the opponent. The system also taught many more weapons that traditional WC. I believe that they have weapons in every catagory of long, short, single, double and felxible, but am not a practicianer so I am not positive.

From my brief exposure to the system, Wu Mei looked nothing like Wing Chun and the method of delivery and developing power was quite different. There were also internal aspects stressed as well not found in most WC classes. In my opinion Wu Mei, while a valid and perhaps even powerful art, has little relation to WC and may be using the legend of Ng Mui\Wu Mei to bolster its own credibility.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong as my opinions are based on a very breif encounter almost 15 years ago.

[Tom Kagan]

The students produce power by a, imo, stamping action with the feet. When demonstrated the students would do a kick by stamping the floor and using the force of the stamp to "rebound" from the floor and kick the opponent.


LOL!

The pre-attack "stamping action" is called an Appel. You see it a lot in fencing. Frankly, I would not be surprised if it is originally not from China and was lifted directly from Classical fencing.

It's valid technique, but no, it's not a way to produce more power. If this is not your opinion and the Wu Mei style bills it this way, they don't understand it.

[southernkf]

I havn't seen the art but I have heard it is quite different. This may be the reason why some people suggest Yimm Wing Chun learned from Ng Mui, but the art wing chun was really created by Yimm Wing Chun and not what Ng Mui did. But then, others think Ng Mui is a myth. Who Knows?

For what it is worth, Ng Mui is occasionally linked to Lung Ying, though I also have heard of different creators. I beleive there is also a plum blossom art that is also associated with Ng Mui that is different from wi mei. I am sure others can find other arts as well. Similar to Gee Shim is credited with the creation of several arts.

I am not sure what constitutes the creator acknowledgement. I doubt Gee Shim or Ng Mui practiced anything too close to the arts they are said to have created. THis seems evident in that most of these arts are quite different from each other.

[Sihing73]

LOL!

The pre-attack "stamping action" is called an Appel. You see it a lot in fencing. Frankly, I would not be surprised if it is originally not from China and was lifted directly from Classical fencing.

It's valid technique, but no, it's not a way to produce more power. If this is not your opinion and the Wu Mei style bills it this way, they don't understand it.

Hi Tom,

Please re-read my post, I am not talking about a "pre-attack" motion. I am speaking of using the rebound from a stamp\stomp to generate power and momentum. While I may not agree that this is the best method I would hardly say it can or will not produce more power. Many styles use stamps to increase focus and generate power in attacks. Silat, Hsying Yi for example.

If you doubt whether or not pressing down forcefully will add power to a strike then try hitting something both without and with a stomp. You can see for yourself whether or not there is the potential for additional power to be generated. One of Newtons Laws of Motion is that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, if you could channel the energy from a stomp in the opposite direction there is certainly potential for added power.

[southernkf]

Hi Sihing73,

Sounds good to me. Not sure if it would hold up against the scrutiny of a physicist, but it seems plausible. When we strike, we are using the ground as support. Our force travels out the fist both towards the opponent but also towards the ground. Hopefully the ground will provide support to maximize our punches. It seems to me that if someone stomps down, that force also must travel back up through the fist. IF it can be coordinated, it seems plausible that some power could be generated. Not sure if it would add a significant amount, but judging from the number of arts that use this technique, it probably is enough.

My concern would be the toll the body takes during the stomps. It seems like it could be damaging over time, depending on the surface being stomped and the intensity of the stomp.

To add to the list, I believe Dragon, and perhaps Bak Mei, also uses downward stomps.

[Tom Kagan]

Hi Tom,

Please re-read my post, I am not talking about a "pre-attack" motion. I am speaking of using the rebound from a stamp\stomp to generate power and momentum. While I may not agree that this is the best method I would hardly say it can or will not produce more power. Many styles use stamps to increase focus and generate power in attacks. Silat, Hsying Yi for example.

I read your post. It's an Appel. As I said, it's legit. Yes, it can "increase focus" and there are far better reasons to do it than that. But, it does not add more power.,, not more than a direct motion, anyway.

[Sihing73]

Tom,

On this we will need to agree to disagree. By stomping you can and will add power to a strike. If you try this for yourself I am sure you will find this to be true. If not then all I can say is when and if I am in NY again or if you ever visit Atlanta, I would be glad to meet and compare notes. Not a challenge but perhaps we are missing something in this medium.

southernkf,

You raise a valid point. Anytime one strikes energy is returned and channelled through the body. There is a great deal of potential for doing damage over time. One of the reasons it is so important to remain relaxed while striking.

I once had the energy explained to me this way: When we punch if we clench the fist on impact we retain energy. However if we strike relaxed then more of that energy is issued to the target. However, a portion of that energy will always return to us through the fist. Now the more rigid one is the more energy becomes trapped in the body at various stages and this can, over time cause damage.

[Phil Redmond]

I read your post. It's an Appel. As I said, it's legit. Yes, it can "increase focus" and there are far better reasons to do it than that. But, it does not add more power.,, not more than a direct motion, anyway.
Bak Mei, Lung Ying, and other Chinese martial arts use it. I don't think it came from fencing.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . who I met in my Cantonese class at CCNY in the 70's is the Wu Mei Pai guy in NYC. I studied with him when he was doing Juk Lum Mantis and Fo Se.
http://www.wumei.com/

[Tom Kagan]

Bak Mei, Lung Ying, and other Chinese martial arts use it. I don't think it came from fencing.


I don't know. I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out it was actually imported from Classical European fencing instead of the other way around, at least in the case of "Wu Mei" style.

[CFT]

I've not done fencing, but did a quick Google (so sue me!) because it sounded interesting. From a quick scan it seems like the Appel is kind of like a feint - so that your opponent can't tell if you're going to lunge or advance. Can you compare this to the Wu Mei Pai usage?

[mantis108]

Bak Mei, Lung Ying, and other Chinese martial arts use it. I don't think it came from fencing.

Well, Bak Mei and Lung Ying use a step that's called Bik Bo or pressing step. IMHO it's a rather strange phenomenon that a lot of the LY/BM guys tend to stomp as they do the Bik Bo. The step is meant to press a forward momentum but somehow it's been interpreted as a stomp and some people go as far as "borrowing" the rebound. ...so

Just a thought

Mantis108

[TenTigers]

some schools of SPM do this as well, as does Ba Ji,Hsing Yi, and others. The stomping creates not only a "vibrational force" but also traine sthe practitioner to immediately root to the ground for the moment of impact. Rooting is not standing in a horse stance and trying to strike, but one needs to have it at the precise moment of impact, so yuo can develop a sort of "movable root."

[YungChun]

Sounds like the stamping action may be used with what otherwise would be a stampless pressing action of footwork to move or create power, as in the rear leg pressing used in WCK.. But I am not familiar with these other systems..

[stonecrusher69]

Tom,

On this we will need to agree to disagree. By stomping you can and will add power to a strike. If you try this for yourself I am sure you will find this to be true. If not then all I can say is when and if I am in NY again or if you ever visit Atlanta, I would be glad to meet and compare notes. Not a challenge but perhaps we are missing something in this medium.

southernkf,

You raise a valid point. Anytime one strikes energy is returned and channelled through the body. There is a great deal of potential for doing damage over time. One of the reasons it is so important to remain relaxed while striking.

I once had the energy explained to me this way: When we punch if we clench the fist on impact we retain energy. However if we strike relaxed then more of that energy is issued to the target. However, a portion of that energy will always return to us through the fist. Now the more rigid one is the more energy becomes trapped in the body at various stages and this can, over time cause damage.

Sihing73... On impact of the fist if it is rigid the energy travels back to the body but what about when we hit with full forse then within a split second the fist become completly soft can the energy still rebound back into our bodies? I think if you can time the release of th energy there won't be a rebound effect.

[southernkf]

If you stomp on the ground with any amount of force, the ground is going to push back with the same amount of force, ignoring elasticity in the ground. What you do with it and if you can utilize it is another matter

[Sihing73]

Sihing73... On impact of the fist if it is rigid the energy travels back to the body but what about when we hit with full forse then within a split second the fist become completly soft can the energy still rebound back into our bodies? I think if you can time the release of th energy there won't be a rebound effect.

Hi SC69,

One of the reasons we are taught to relax after impact is to lessen the amount of energy which is rebounded back to our bodies. However, this is easier said than done. I also believe that no matter how "relaxed" one is that there will always be some amount of energy returned to us from any contact with an opponent. I do not believe that it is possible to release 100% into the opponent and not take something back in return. Of course the amount one receives may only be a small percent or even a portion of a percent but it still comes back to us.

By keeping the "entire" body relaxed any returning energy will be dispersed as it travels throughout the body. This lessens the potential for damage over time. One of the ways Sifu explained it to me is that each joint can act like a spring when relaxed and when energy returning reaches each "joint\spring" a portion of that returning energy is absorbed by the "spring" and dispersed. This continues until the energy is either entirely absorbed or exits the body through the foot. This is an interesting idea to me and I am going to explore it more as time permits. I am wondering how this may fit in with those who strive to achieve a whole body connection and absorb incoming energy into the ground.

FWIW, I do not strike with a hard or tense fist but strive to remain relaxed throughout. When I punch my fist shakes at the end as I try to "throw" all of my energy outside of the body. While some will argue that you must clench or tighten the fist on impact, I have had good results trying to remain relaxed throughout. Of course having said that, there are exceptions to every rule and there may be times when it is desirable to strike with a tense fist. But then again I tend to punch with the lower pinky finger as much as possible. I have been told that this is a good way to break your hand but thus far it has not happened. But then again God watches over fools like me :)

[chisauking]

when I first took up western boxing, my coach taught me to stomp on the ground as I jabbed. I found by doing so, my power had indeed increased.

Also, my friends that do Thai boxing also adopt this 'stomping' action as they train on the bags.

So we can see that other arts do incorperate this motion into their punching.

Try it and see.

[Tom Kagan]

when I first took up western boxing, my coach taught me to stomp on the ground as I jabbed. I found by doing so, my power had indeed increased.

Also, my friends that do Thai boxing also adopt this 'stomping' action as they train on the bags.

So we can see that other arts do incorperate this motion into their punching.

Try it and see.

This has nothing to do with rebounding your foot off the floor to kick. You are discussing something different than of what Sihing73 spoke.

[Sihing73]

This has nothing to do with rebounding your foot off the floor to kick. You are discussing something different than of what Sihing73 spoke.

Hello Tom,

While you are technically correct that these are two different applications for a stomp, it does fall into the conversation as regards whether or not a stomp will add power to ones strikes. This applies whether or not it is a strike with the hands or feet. Since you have posted that a "stomp" does nothing to increase the power of ones strikes, ththe point chisauking made is valid and does, imo, apply to this thread.

Having said that I would now be curious as to whether or not you would agree with the concept that a stomp can increase the power of ones strikes. If not then why not?

[Tom Kagan]

Hello Tom,

While you are technically correct that these are two different applications for a stomp, it does fall into the conversation as regards whether or not a stomp will add power to ones strikes. This applies whether or not it is a strike with the hands or feet. Since you have posted that a "stomp" does nothing to increase the power of ones strikes, ththe point chisauking made is valid and does, imo, apply to this thread.

Having said that I would now be curious as to whether or not you would agree with the concept that a stomp can increase the power of ones strikes. If not then why not?


Thrusting forward and planting your foot timed with a strike increases the power of your shots. This is what chisauking is referring to in western boxing. Whether you stomp is immaterial. The proof is in the pudding: Western boxers don't stomp around the ring throwing punches. If stomping increased power, western boxers would be among the first to widely adopt it - you'd be able to observe such a stomp to increase power frequently at elite levels of competition during a match. But, you don't.

As I said in my 2nd post, it does not increase power more than a direct motion. You can use a stomp to distract, you can use a bounce (not stomp) on the floor to quickly reverse direction if your leg is traveling the away from your opponent (double kick), you can stomp as a reminder to time your strike with a planted foot... sure, a lot of stuff. But no, a stomp doesn't increase power. Regardless of how much you can reclaim with a rebound, it absorbs power.

Again, that doesn't mean don't ever stomp. It has a place as an adjunct method.