What do you guys think of these apps?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2GFAqR4qZk&mode=related&search=

[jigahus]

I admit I don't know much about Kung Fu, but it looks like simple Chin Na apps. Some may work. Some may not. My 2 cents.

[boshea]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2GFAqR4qZk&mode=related&search=

I'm sure they work great, if someone walks up and grabs your wrist! :p

In fairness not all of them were defenses against wrist-grabs, but there seemed to be a pretty strong emphasis on responding to that type of attack.

[banditshaw]

I'd Like To See Him Do Them Against Full Resistance And Getting Punched At The Same Time.

[jet64]

Its so slow, its not gonna work on foreign opponent. its just to practice useless drills.

attackers wont go for your wrist, that bs.

IMHO

[TenTigers]

basic, I agree with the overemphasis on wrist grabs. I learned a ton of defenses against wrist grabs, and I have never had anyone grab my wrists. They are simply a learning tool, but it is better to work off a grab and punch.
I am also not a fan of striking, or stripping the hand that grabs you, THEN doing your technique. Simply striking with the free hand saves a step, and facilitates the follow ups. Speaking of follow-ups, he had none. He did some fancy stuff to the guy's wrist after the armbar, but when and why would yuo ever do such a thing? If you have the person in position, hit him! In my school,we use strikes to set up jointlocks,(breaks) to set up strikes. The lock puts yuor opponent in position to follow up at will. BTW-breaking is a follow up as well.
Also, the locking of the wrist against his chest was cool-looking, but I would never rely on it in a fight, where the attacker is moving, resisting (key word, here) and trying to hurt you. It is great at parties, impressing your friends, and maybe your students, but that's about it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think joint locks are good for people in jobs where they need to restrain and immobilize the suspect to cuff them and make the arrest.

In cases like that you are often not dealing with someone attacking, but more trying to get away from you.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Its so slow, its not gonna work on foreign opponent. its just to practice useless drills.

attackers wont go for your wrist, that bs.

IMHO

Maybe they're cons with long records, and they're practicing like they've got a brick of hash in their back pocket. If a cop grabs your wrist to apply the cuffs.....you've got him, man!

[David Jamieson]

arm hanger training is 100% inneffective for learning martial art.

while the apps may be fine, they will not be correctly developed in the way they are showing the practice in the video.

[Bruce W Sims]

Ah.. I don't mean to discount a good discussion. I only want to point out that the clip is a good example of what happens when someone takes material from another art and represents it as something else. Please allow me to take this a step at a time.

1.) The material being demonstrated is not CHIN NA. The hand placement, use of vectors and poor/inexact grip is nothing that would get by any competent CHIN NA teacher (See: YANG Jwing-ming).

2.) The circles are far too large to be any sort of combat material. My best guess is that said instructor has had some experience in a commercial school or in Aikido where efforts are made to de-localize the technique so as to spread authority ibn the technique over a wider range. (Also notice that the material does not go far beyond the basic 10 techniques that one would find in most Aikido and Ju-jutsu schools.) This allows a person to learn the gross motor skill with less discomfort.

3.) The use of a wrist grab is consistent with most introductory practice, but is usually phased out as a person moves higher into their guep ranks. No school should be expected to have Black Belts relying solely on wrist grabs but to move ahead to dealing with strikes, kicks, disarms, and transitions.

4.) My best guess is that this is about as far as any of the students will go in this particular school even though the clip indicates that this is merely the "basic" material.

FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I did think some of that stuff was clearly Akido myself. The first few are Chinese, especially the armbars they kept doing, but all the Lappel grabs are just too reminiscent of Akido to me.

[David Jamieson]

stepping into a waiting elbow is plain dumb from my perspective.

my main issue with the demo was that it is a poor methodology for training or understanding anything when you do it like that continually. first time just to show, after that if there is no reasonable resistance or chance, then there can be no reasonable development of the technique being taught.

that which we are taught, we learn by doing. (~Aristotle)

also, chin na can be taught from a perspective of getting out of wrist control situations etc etc. standing up, you will find it rare that anyone will ever go after your wrist unless :

a) you have a weapon in your hand and are close enough to be grabbed by the wrist

or

b) a cop is cuffing you, in which case, you will be clubbed for trying your chin na out. lol

[Shaolin Wookie]

stepping into a waiting elbow is plain dumb from my perspective.

my main issue with the demo was that it is a poor methodology for training or understanding anything when you do it like that continually. first time just to show, after that if there is no reasonable resistance or chance, then there can be no reasonable development of the technique being taught.

that which we are taught, we learn by doing. (~Aristotle)

also, chin na can be taught from a perspective of getting out of wrist control situations etc etc. standing up, you will find it rare that anyone will ever go after your wrist unless :

a) you have a weapon in your hand and are close enough to be grabbed by the wrist

or

b) a cop is cuffing you, in which case, you will be clubbed for trying your chin na out. lol

As was demonstrated by the weak chin-na escape of that 15 y.o. girl......

[Mr Punch]

That was really really terrible substandard aikido, with some bs fu strikes into the bargain.

In aiki you always step off line, you always go for kuzushi asap and you always strike as you do any first move. He doesn't put any hip power into it at all.

I know most people here think aiki is a joke, but even aiki is far better than this trash.

[xcakid]

Yep, these are not Chin Na. As the video tag says, they are levers.

ChinNa is practiced on the basic sense first to understand the mechanics. The easiest way to do this is via wrist, shoulder and lapel grabs. Once this has been perfected then the fighting application can start.

It is difficult to teach Chin Na effectively start off at a run. Meaning full speed punches to the face. So you teach it in a basic level then progress from there. If you break apart the applications of Lien Bu Chuan, Gung Li Chuan, and San Tien Chuan(classic LF forms) there are quite a few Chin Na move in there defending against a punch or a kick. Although most primary application taught are block/punch combos, the secondary applications would consist of a grab and twist after the punch.

[B-Rad]

I did think some of that stuff was clearly Akido myself. The first few are Chinese, especially the armbars they kept doing, but all the Lappel grabs are just too reminiscent of Akido to me.
Just thought I'd say that most of that is pretty much identical to early level hapkido that I took, though not very well done. For example, the arm bar theme (putting the fore arm into upper arm while locking the wrist) is common throughout most of the early hapkido material. I think it was called "kaluki" or something like that. Though rather than use the flat muscular part of the forearm like this guy does you would put the sharper hard bone of the side of the arm into the opponent's nerve and drive them into the ground if you could. Doesn't put his body into it or anything really. Hurt a lot more and pretty easy to do. Though a few things in there just looked flat out made up (completely useless regardless of setup). It's like he took some basic hapkido from a book (in how a lot of necessary details are missing) and tried fleshing it out and disguising it with stuff that might look cool to beginners, over complicating things.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

For example, the arm bar theme (putting the fore arm into upper arm while locking the wrist) is common throughout most of the early hapkido material.

This techniques is common in Shaolin Hong Quan and Tai Tzu Chang Chuan as well though. Those arts are pretty ancient and definitive Chinese styles.

It is the 5th posture of the Shaolin 32 move Tai Tzu Chang Chuan in fact. Historical records date that set to 960 AD. Shaolin.

[MasterKiller]

Unless you find people constantly grabbing for your sword hand, you can trash most of these techniques.

[xcakid]

This techniques is common in Shaolin Hong Quan and Tai Tzu Chang Chuan as well though. Those arts are pretty ancient and definitive Chinese styles.

It is the 5th posture of the Shaolin 32 move Tai Tzu Chang Chuan in fact. Historical records date that set to 960 AD. Shaolin.


Dang forgot about all the Red Fist forms. You're right they are chock full of Chin Na moves and counter moves.

[TenTigers]

good point MK, as I said, they are learning tools but should be disgarded once the student can understand and perform the concepts and move on to more realistic training. Just last week, I was discussing with an older student many of the techniques I learned and taught are no longer in the system, as I am constantly evolving and changing.
One such technique stands out in my mind. I learned so many techniques against a rear choke. Not a strangle, not a headlock, but the "Frankenstien neck grab." Who does this, besides an overzealous masseur? And what's worse is, the techniques were sooooo cool. Arm grabs into crosses and breaking the elbows, spins underneath, all sorts of fancy-shmancy stuff that when you really ask yourself, "When am I ever going to defend myself against this" suddenly makes yourealize what a waste of time it all was. Especially when you spent the time to get really, really good at it!
I have a great idea. see my new thread!

[B-Rad]

This techniques is common in Shaolin Hong Quan and Tai Tzu Chang Chuan as well though. Those arts are pretty ancient and definitive Chinese styles.
True, though the one step wrist grab and going into this thing over and over and over reminded me more of the Hapkido/TKD one step self defense system.

[B-Rad]

Not a strangle, not a headlock, but the "Frankenstien neck grab." Who does this, besides an overzealous masseur?
Had it done to me in highschool... didn't need any special technique to defend against it, but it does happen :p

[TenTigers]

if done right, it is very effective. What I mean is grabbing the guy and slamming his face into a wall, not standing there like an emotinally disturbed child going,
"oooooohhh I HATE YOU,I HATE YOU ,I HATE YOU!!!!!"

what High School did you go to?
Did you ride in a great big bus, or a little, little one?:D

[B-Rad]

lol, hey, I never said it worked ;) Kid got ****ed off about something went for the Frankenstein choke (along the lines of a childish "I hate you, I hate you, I hate you" and after a brief moment of surprise, I turned around breaking his grip and punched him :p When people get ****ed off enough they do stupid **** like that. What kind of choke did Springer use against that chick in the challenge match gone bad? Was that a Frankenstein grab?

[TenTigers]

yeppers like peppers! classic EDP
I am not saying it is useless, but to learn twenty defenses when one simple move would suffice is just retarded.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Most of those 20 moves don't work against an angry, highly, frustrated attacker, in a frenzy bent on choking the c r a p out of you.

[mantis108]

Ah.. I don't mean to discount a good discussion. I only want to point out that the clip is a good example of what happens when someone takes material from another art and represents it as something else. Please allow me to take this a step at a time.

While I somewhat argee with this observation, I would have to say there are only some many way a limb/joint can be bent and that there are only the same number of limbs and joints in a human body. So essentially, nothing is really new under the sun so far. But I believe you pointed out something important IMHO that a technique or some material taken out of context (ie another art) is in my mind a bit of a taboo and that's what's wrong with self defense/Chin Na techniques taught today.


1.) The material being demonstrated is not CHIN NA. The hand placement, use of vectors and poor/inexact grip is nothing that would get by any competent CHIN NA teacher (See: YANG Jwing-ming).

Well, Chin Na simply means seize and control. One definition goes like this - Chin means using one hand/arm to grab-control. Na means using both hands/arms to seize-control. Hand placement and use of vector, etc are "localized" understanding of Chin Na. There's nothing wrong per se in localization of the skill set because of personal insights but it doesn't mean that it's better or worst than others' understanding of it in reality. Personally, I am not much of a fan of Dr. Yang's material either. From what I have seen in his DVDs, online clips and books, he's no more better or worst than this clip in question if you ask me.


2.) The circles are far too large to be any sort of combat material. My best guess is that said instructor has had some experience in a commercial school or in Aikido where efforts are made to de-localize the technique so as to spread authority ibn the technique over a wider range. (Also notice that the material does not go far beyond the basic 10 techniques that one would find in most Aikido and Ju-jutsu schools.) This allows a person to learn the gross motor skill with less discomfort.

Argueably this is a "demo". As any demo on camera goes, the circles has to be large enough for anyone to see the technique being presented. I somewhat agreed with your evaluation of where the material could have come from and the intended audience is of a wider range. As for as the number of techniques and the validity of concepts presented, I think we have to bear in mind that this is labelled as "levers, basics and exercises". Now I think it is very clear that the teach has presented this as mostly one step drilling oriented. If we take the first few techniques presented, we see that he showed the small silk reeling wrist lock and a few of it's variation finishing holds (ie arm bar) and repeat to both sides. Clearly that's how he wanted it drilled. So in that sense, he's not making any false claim.


3.) The use of a wrist grab is consistent with most introductory practice, but is usually phased out as a person moves higher into their guep ranks. No school should be expected to have Black Belts relying solely on wrist grabs but to move ahead to dealing with strikes, kicks, disarms, and transitions.

I agreed with this statement but wrist is a good place to start especial if weaponry will be introduced in later stage of training. If the school's focus is martial sports oriented (ie UFC, kick boxing, etc) the wrist control and counter isn't that much of a point.


4.) My best guess is that this is about as far as any of the students will go in this particular school even though the clip indicates that this is merely the "basic" material.

Possibly, but then Kung Fu is a long personal journey. So having a starting point is better then non at all IMHO.


FWIW.

FWIW, I think we can take this clips with a grain of salt. What surprises me that most replies here didn't address some of the fundamental issues as such the "attacker" often exhibited all the FUBAR mechanic most prevailing in modern Wushu (ie elbow raised, elbow locked, stiff chest, etc. ). In other words, the defender's techniques are guaranted to work again a significantly weaken structure. That's why the teacher's or the defender's techniques would work under those conditions but not in reality. BTW, some of the teacher's techniques don't even have the proper structure or his body weight applied correctly,which implies that he would have to rely on brute strength in some cases (or he can spin it as "conditioning"). Anyway, this to me is the main suspect of the experience and qualification of the teacher.

Thanks for sharing your views.

Best regards

Mantis108

[Ben Gash]

Well, the main problem with that clip is that it was done so badly. As for wrist grabbing, the spectrum of violent confrontation is quite broad, and this is the argument that often stems from TMA Vs MMA debates, MMA largely deals with the squared off fight, which is probably the least common situation in reality (especially if you're over 24), and the easiest one to deal with (just walk away).
I've had my wrist grabbed as the initiation of violence several times, and I have used (much better) variations of the techniques shown there effectively and consistently. I will agree though that there is often an over emphasis on wrist grab defence (I personally teach it very little, if you're good at Chi Sau you should be able to defend a wrist grab). Some argue that it's an easy way to teach basic principles, which I suppose has some merit, but I prefer more functional drills.

[David Jamieson]

i would like to add that mma is only a toe to toe sloppy slug fest when the fighters aren't very good or well trained. They tend to stand there and smash away at each other until it goes down and then it is usually the guy who is the least tired or gets the choke who wins.

sometimes, someone will bleed and the ref will call it. lol

good mma is what it is and so is good kungfu, good boxing, good jujitsu, good...etc etc etc.

IE: it is interesting to watch and skill is shown in abundance.

poor mma is also what it is and it's only a matter of fact when it comes to sport that the mediocre is ubiquitous and the refined is of a rarer quality. Same can be said for all others as above.

[golden arhat]

who just grabs your wrist like that ?


:confused:

[David Jamieson]

who just grabs your wrist like that ?


:confused:

someone who wants to disarm you.

[kidswarrior]

Just thought I'd say that most of that is pretty much identical to early level hapkido that I took, though not very well done. For example, the arm bar theme (putting the fore arm into upper arm while locking the wrist) is common throughout most of the early hapkido material. I think it was called "kaluki" or something like that. Rad, you stole one of my observations lol. Even remember the Korean name. :)



Argueably this is a "demo". As any demo on camera goes, the circles has to be large enough for anyone to see the technique being presented. I somewhat agreed with your evaluation of where the material could have come from and the intended audience is of a wider range. As for as the number of techniques and the validity of concepts presented, I think we have to bear in mind that this is labelled as "levers, basics and exercises". Now I think it is very clear that the teach has presented this as mostly one step drilling oriented. If we take the first few techniques presented, we see that he showed the small silk reeling wrist lock and a few of it's variation finishing holds (ie arm bar) and repeat to both sides. Clearly that's how he wanted it drilled. So in that sense, he's not making any false claim.I believe that in the spirit of fairness, this is an excellent point. I know in Kung Fu San Soo, we practice slowly, and often in larger circles than in a real application (no time!).

And in conclusion (yes, this is my master's thesis ;)) some others made the point that no one really grabs the wrist like this, and while I agree that this is probably not a realistic scenario to the opening of a fight, it may occur in the middle when things are a bit muddled. I'd just like to say that (1) It's important to have some kind of counter in place, even if less than perfect, and (2) as Carl Cestari says, the grab is never the real attack, it's part of the setup. (Yeah, I know Cestari has his own problems, but I'll learn from any source I can :D).

[Ben Gash]

who just grabs your wrist like that ?


:confused:

Loads of people, if it's not a squared off fight. If it's escelated from an argument, you'll likely have your hands in front of you at chest level, so people are quite likely to grab you. If you've been rushed from the side and reflexively thrown up your nearside arm, again they're likely to grab it.

[Bruce W Sims]

who just grabs your wrist like that ?


:confused:

Actually it happens a lot more times that we realize. The usual context is when a verbal altercation arises and a person attempts to disengage by moving away. The most common response is for a person to reach-out and grab, usually with some comment like "hey, I'm not done with you" or "where dya think YOU'RE going?"! FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[boshea]

Actually it happens a lot more times that we realize. The usual context is when a verbal altercation arises and a person attempts to disengage by moving away. The most common response is for a person to reach-out and grab, usually with some comment like "hey, I'm not done with you" or "where dya think YOU'RE going?"! FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Maybe for some, but from my own personal experience, no one has ever gone for a wrist grab in an attempt to start an altercation with me (or others around me). Possibly because I don't usually hold my hands out like that, but also most verbal altercations I've been in (or seen) didn't start out at close enough range. I suppose if you wanted someone to grab your wrist, say if you had an uber-wrist-grab-defense, you might want to hold it out there in the hopes that the attacker might fall for it.

It's just never come up in my experience, so I don't spend too much time thinking about defenses against that kind of attack.

[xcakid]

I think wrist grabs are more prevalent with Man V Woman altercations. Second would be a bouncer to patron or similar kinds of situation, typically coupled with a lapel or shoulder grab. Altercations with police would also involve these. Its pretty cool when you know Chin Na and a cop tries to aplly it on you. :D

[kwaichang]

What do you guys think of these apps? This is the question. I liked them. They are not Aikido. KC

[Bruce W Sims]

Maybe for some, but from my own personal experience, no one has ever gone for a wrist grab in an attempt to start an altercation with me (or others around me). Possibly because I don't usually hold my hands out like that, but also most verbal altercations I've been in (or seen) didn't start out at close enough range. I suppose if you wanted someone to grab your wrist, say if you had an uber-wrist-grab-defense, you might want to hold it out there in the hopes that the attacker might fall for it.

It's just never come up in my experience, so I don't spend too much time thinking about defenses against that kind of attack.

I should also add that wrist and clothing grabs got a real boost with the advent of Judo under Kano. The sport put quite a number of practitioners on the Japanese streets who wanted to see if the techniques they were learning would actually work. (Sound familiar?) In response, legal and enforcement people needed a way of responding to such individuals, resulting in individuals such as TAKEDA Sokaku (See: DAITO-RYU Aikijujutsu) making a living from traveling Japan teaching such material.

In today's modern world there are still cases where people will grab a wrist, arm, shirt, jacket etc etc as part and parcel of an altercation. Being able to handle these situations with dispatch is a worthy part of any MA. Even TCMA had packages of CHIN NA techniques appended to each "style" of CHUAN FA, though now such material has developed into a kind of MA all its own. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[David Jamieson]

if you ever sportively do full contact with all range fighting, you will find that once you get down at the ground, wrist control is a huge tactic and freeing yourself from it is a huge skill/attribute to have especially if you want to G&P the guy who is doing it to you.

I reiterate, that the videos show ineffective training that wil take you nowhere.

you can use that method to show the structure once or twice, but if you do not train the tech at full resistance, you are simply not training anything that is of any use and you are just as simply wasting your time if your goal is to actually learn and employ martial art.

[mantis108]

No wrist grabbing and hair pulling, eh? Think again! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt0gM12hcQU&mode=related&search=

must ... signing up ... (in Hommer's voice) :eek: ;)

who care if it's useful? It's sure gonna be lots of fun! :D

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

I think joint locks are good for people in jobs where they need to restrain and immobilize the suspect to cuff them and make the arrest.

In cases like that you are often not dealing with someone attacking, but more trying to get away from you.

depends. IME, if you are to a point where you have to restrain them, they will be attakcing with other limbs while you are focusing on one. I have found that the best thing for me are restraints which control both arms, the body or the head... untrained people tend to panic when their breath is slowly being taken away, so choking is a beautiful thing. I prefer holds like the full nelson and the double wing to small joint locks for that reason. If I have to cuff someone, I will usually put them on the ground face first and keep them in place while someone else cuffs them. If I am solo and they need to be cuffed, I will choke them out first.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Good points.

[Lucas]

before any physical altercation happens is when you usually see a wrist grab, or somthing similar.

usually from someone not expecting a violent response to them grabbing you. usually from someone who feels superior. usually done while things may still be in an escalation stage. BEFORE you start fighting.

is an oppression kind of thing. you see guys do this to women. or to younger people.

its just good to know you can stop people from controlling you or oppressing you, even if its not in a fight.

not all wrist grabs will happen in a fight, or even escalate to the level of fighting.

if someone is attempting to control you in some way, and you can show them you are not easily controlled. chances are they may have a change of mind as to their actions toward you.