Siu Baat Gwa

[ZenMindT]

To any Fut Sao guys out there, I've been curous about this practice for a while but have had little info on how its done/ the steps ect. Does anyone know where i can find a written explanation or something of the sort via a web page or a link to another board ect.

Thanks in advance.

[stonecrusher69]

Hi ZenMindT... there is no written explanation or website of how the sui baat qua is done that I know of. I was taught it many years ago.You usualy learn it after you complete the Bil gee form.Then you combine everything you learn within the sui baat qui stepping.The stepping pattern consists of moving or stepping around your opponent either in 45 degrees , 90 or 180 degrees incraments.There are a few ways to do this. There are two basic ways to step one is called steeling a half step which is a small step.This type of stepping is very fast.The other basic kind is called cross step or cross stepping in which one leg crosses over the other one.this is also called a full step.There are reasons and ways of stepping for each type. This type of stepping is called the outer baat qua because your moving to th eopponets out side we also have an inner baat qau which is used to counter or shut down the outer baat qwa. I hope this helps.

[stonecrusher69]

One other I forgot to mention about the full step.It's also called a full step because within taking one step we can move 180 degress behind our opponent.

[Vajramusti]

Kow zilch about fat sao wc- Ip man's jong form has ba qua stepping.

joy chaudhuri

[stonecrusher69]

yes Ip Man dummy form has a part of the Baat qwa but it only travels 45 degress then back to the center so it's not complete.We travel completely around our opponent 360 degress before returning to the center.also the way you step is very limitted IMO we have many ways of stepping which is not found in any other WCK style That I know of.

[Vajramusti]

Again, I dont know fut sao wc...but with Ip man dummy steps well learned you can easily go completely behind an opponent as well. Mui Fa Ip Man wing chun plum flower steps further complements those skills.

joy chaudhuri

[ngokfei]

To do the various stepping patterns on the Jong, would it not be a simple solution to construct one that can accomodate this

a 2 sided - 6 limb &/

2 leg or even a 4 sided Jong 12 Limb & 4 Legs

(I'm not a WC teacher but do have this training regiment as well)

[stonecrusher69]

one solution is perform the movements not on a dummy but just with a form which is what we do.The jong is just another way to practice it.

[Sihing73]

Hi SC69,

I am curious if you are familiar with the footwork patterns of Pak Bok Nams Pakua and if so how they may compare to the Siu Baat Gwa, if at all. In Pak's system (please forgive my spelling especially relating to names :D) there are a series of patterns one practices on a linear line which deal with all directional changes. Once this is learned then the circle stepping is practiced. I was curious if this is similar to what you do. Also, Randy Williams had a stepping pattern based on the Plum Blossom shape and I was wondering how that may compare as well.

Also some may pratice using ropes or poles shaped like a tepee which they step around, over and under as the focus would be on the multiple stepping against various shapes and levels of height, etc. Joseph Simonet has a row of WC Dummies he uses as well.

[stonecrusher69]

HI Sihing 73

Pak Bok Nams Pakua I remember looking at a book of his or maybe one of his students years ago but I don't remeber that much about it.I do remember when I was looking at it that it had similiar ideas as what we do,but I would not say it's the same. I have to look at it again then give you an answer. The stepping we practice is not on a linear line it's based on 8 directional stepping on a bent curve or circle. Also all the Bagau systems that I ever saw always stepps forward never backward which in Futsao Sui Baat qua is half of the equasion..

The blum Blossom shapes(randy williams) do not resemble the sui baat qua form or idea.we also uhave our own version of the Blum Blossom which is also much different.

[Sihing73]

[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;804372]HI Sihing 73

The stepping we practice is not on a linear line it's based on 8 directional stepping on a bent curve or circle. Also all the Bagau systems that I ever saw always stepps forward never backward which in Futsao Sui Baat qua is half of the equasion..

/QUOTE]

Hi SC69,

If I recall correctly in Paks' book they do practice to step backwards as well as forward. It seems to be based initially on a linear approach and then goes to 8 directions. I would be interested in how closely, if at all, it is to how you approach the footwork.

[stonecrusher69]

[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;804372]HI Sihing 73

The stepping we practice is not on a linear line it's based on 8 directional stepping on a bent curve or circle. Also all the Bagau systems that I ever saw always stepps forward never backward which in Futsao Sui Baat qua is half of the equasion..

/QUOTE]

Hi SC69,

If I recall correctly in Paks' book they do practice to step backwards as well as forward. It seems to be based initially on a linear approach and then goes to 8 directions. I would be interested in how closely, if at all, it is to how you approach the footwork.

Hi Dave,

As Far as Park's bagua or any Bagua system is general I can't say with certain that what we do is what they do.I don't believe that it is.I once went to visit a Baqua master once who knew Yin Fu style.I deminstarted our foot work and he said that its Bagua but then it did not look like what he was doing so I'm not sure what to make of it.If you like to see what we do just pay me a visit.I'd be happy to show you.

[Phil Redmond]

Again, I dont know fut sao wc...but with Ip man dummy steps well learned you can easily go completely behind an opponent as well. Mui Fa Ip Man wing chun plum flower steps further complements those skills.

joy chaudhuri
Hi Joy, in the Fut Sao WC jong form there is a turn where your back is turned towards the dummy.
Phil

[Vajramusti]

Hi Joy, in the Fut Sao WC jong form there is a turn where your back is turned towards the dummy.
Phil
----------------------------------------------

Hi Phil- didnt know that. FWIW given choice I wouldnt do that.
Its ok by me if they want to do that.
Thanks for the info.

joy chaudhuri

[stonecrusher69]

Hi Joy, in the Fut Sao WC jong form there is a turn where your back is turned towards the dummy.
Phil


The turn your talking about is a pivot where you turn 360 degress but you do not leave your back to the jong.

[Phil Redmond]

The turn your talking about is a pivot where you turn 360 degress but you do not leave your back to the jong.
never said that you leave your back to the jong. I just said that you do turn your back to the jong. You have to remember that I was there when Henry invented Fut Sao Wing. Trust me I know the whole story. I was with him every day for over 2 years. I was at the restaurant when he traced the hand for his logo on a place mat. I even asked him why he made the finger nails so long. He told me the it showed great chi to have long finger nails. I also have a cassette tape where he explains how he learned Wing Chun for the Buddisht Patriach Hsun Yun.I was there suring the whole "evolution" of Fat Sao WC. We lived in the same building and my children looked at him as a grandfather. I left when the B.S. got too deep. When Duncan Leung left for Virginia a few of Duncan's students including me whento Henry thinking he was Duncan's brother and that maybe Duncan taught him something special. We found out the Henry lied and was not Duncan's brother. I stayed though because Henry was a good TCM doctor. He hepled me ace my acupucture tests when I was in acupucture school. I owe him that. I just couldn't deal with all the story changes about his history and how he learned Biu Jee from his Sifu Hsu Yun after he was dead. I sort of dealt with the other lies but that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I told a few people why I left. When I was opening a new school near Chinatown at the Soho fitness center Henry came there with my Junior James Cama. Ask James what happened.
I met met James some years later and we patched things up so I don't want to go there on this forum. So please don't tell me what you know about Fau Sao Wing Chunaka Gu Yee Kuen. I also live in NJ. If you'd like some more "clarification" I can meet you and enlighten you in more detail. Just PM where you'd like to meet.

[stonecrusher69]

never said that you leave your back to the jong. I just said that you do turn your back to the jong. You have to remember that I was there when Henry invented Fut Sao Wing. Trust me I know the whole story. I was with him every day for over 2 years. I was at the restaurant when he traced the hand for his logo on a place mat. I even asked him why he made the finger nails so long. He told me the it showed great chi to have long finger nails. I also have a cassette tape where he explains how he learned Wing Chun for the Buddisht Patriach Hsun Yun.I was there suring the whole "evolution" of Fat Sao WC. We lived in the same building and my children looked at him as a grandfather. I left when the B.S. got too deep. When Duncan Leung left for Virginia a few of Duncan's students including me whento Henry thinking he was Duncan's brother and that maybe Duncan taught him something special. We found out the Henry lied and was not Duncan's brother. I stayed though because Henry was a good TCM doctor. He hepled me ace my acupucture tests when I was in acupucture school. I owe him that. I just couldn't deal with all the story changes about his history and how he learned Biu Jee from his Sifu Hsu Yun after he was dead. I sort of dealt with the other lies but that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I told a few people why I left. When I was opening a new school near Chinatown at the Soho fitness center Henry came there with my Junior James Cama. Ask James what happened.
I met met James some years later and we patched things up so I don't want to go there on this forum. So please don't tell me what you know about Fau Sao Wing Chunaka Gu Yee Kuen. I also live in NJ. If you'd like some more "clarification" I can meet you and enlighten you in more detail. Just PM where you'd like to meet.

Phil, please don't bother to enlighten me..I've been doing Fut Sao for over25 years and have trained with almost every one who has done fut sao,so I dought if you can tell or show me anything I 've not seen or heard many ,many times in the past. ( I've heard you only stuedied fut sao for only a few months anyway.) I know Henry can tell tall stories but the fact is I did not go to him to hear his stories but to learn kung fu,and he certainly had that.I could care less if Fut Sao was created by Ronald Mc Donald as long as it works that's all that mattters to me.

As far you trying to impress everyone here that Henry lived in the same building as you and you have his drawings so what!!...Henry lived for over 2 years at my sifu's house and taught him personally the correct way and he has his alter,his dummy his medicine and his system.Like I said..if henry made it up..well then good for him..he's a very smart man to have done that..which makes Fut Sao even more important then it is.

[Phil Redmond]

You heard wrong and I don't need to impress anyone. I'll tell the same story to anyone face to face. 2 years is a lot more than a few months. What I've written is true PERIOD.
But of course you're entitled to believe what you wish.

[stonecrusher69]

You heard wrong and I don't need to impress anyone. I'll tell the same story to anyone face to face. 2 years is a lot more than a few months. What I've written is true PERIOD.
But of course you're entitled to believe what you wish.

Phil..I'm sure you did study the amount of time you claim,but that's what I heard..anyway, What I wrote in my last post ,I was at the time a bit irritated not by you but something that was going on at the moment.so I was not thinking clearly or speaking kindly to you so I just want to say sorry for that..I'm just a bit sensitive at times when it comes to Fut Sao..only because there is this black cloud hanging over it.. I know about Henry so I know abit about what your talking about. I have an open mind and I'm willing to listen to what you say about fut sao as long as it's constructive...

Take care,
Mike

[Phil Redmond]

Phil..I'm sure you did study the amount of time you claim,but that's what I heard..anyway, What I wrote in my last post ,I was at the time a bit irritated not by you but something that was going on at the moment.so I was not thinking clearly or speaking kindly to you so I just want to say sorry for that..I'm just a bit sensitive at times when it comes to Fut Sao..only because there is this black cloud hanging over it.. I know about Henry so I know abit about what your talking about. I have an open mind and I'm willing to listen to what you say about fut sao as long as it's constructive...

Take care,
Mike
NP, I understand. I used to get that way when people talked about TWC. Now it doesn't bother me anymore. I chose what I like just like you chose what you like.