"Average" MMA

[southernkf]

There has been lots of talk of MMA people. Some camps point to the domination of MMA venues. Granted, traditional martial arts haven't done well, with some very limited exceptions. My thought is that the reason of dominance, at least in one part is because you have a different grade of fighter that competes in these events and learns MMA from those who study more traditional arts. MMA guys are typically alpha males that like aggression. Many of these guys are happy to trade punches and go toe to toe, and some just use MMA as a means for aggression. Though there are others like Royce who are in a different camp and show the beauty, sophistication, and technical command he has in his art.

A recent post/video clip illustrated a point that the average mma person may not be so indestructible as some people suggest. I am not likely to fight or encounter someone of the likes of Gracie (any of them), Lidell, or any of the people that typically fight in pro venues. The average MMa person doesn't have those level of skills, but no doubt they do have valid skills. My personal goal is to be able to handle myself against someone of comparable training in MMA skills against mine. I would expect to be able to deal with what he offers. Perhaps I win, perhaps I lose, but I shouldn't be dismantled at will.

Success in my mind comes from having a very stable foundation. In all the fighting arts I learned (where experienced sport fighters taught), the topic was always the same, have a small skill set you master and rely on those. Don't get fancy or try something you haven't nailed. I think many of the martial arts demos I have seen fails because of this. I see people not having a strong foundation and relying of less that stellar skills. I think the beauty of MMA is that it forces us to be honest and have to bring those skills up to the proper level. My own recent sparring sessions seemed to credit this idea. When I failed in performing my wing chun properly, my execution suffered greatly and I was constantly off balance and played defense. When I happened to stick to what I was capable of doing and ensure that I was doing it properly, the outcome was much more favorable. And in fact, I could see why certain training aspects were vital where I used to take them for granted.

anyways...

So my question is has anyone else gone up against average MMA guys and what was the result? Does anyone have any intention on working with MMA guys? And how do you deal with them? Do you treat them differently, or treat them as any fighter?

[sanjuro_ronin]

There has been lots of talk of MMA people. Some camps point to the domination of MMA venues. Granted, traditional martial arts haven't done well, with some very limited exceptions. My thought is that the reason of dominance, at least in one part is because you have a different grade of fighter that competes in these events and learns MMA from those who study more traditional arts. MMA guys are typically alpha males that like aggression. Many of these guys are happy to trade punches and go toe to toe, and some just use MMA as a means for aggression. Though there are others like Royce who are in a different camp and show the beauty, sophistication, and technical command he has in his art.

A recent post/video clip illustrated a point that the average mma person may not be so indestructible as some people suggest. I am not likely to fight or encounter someone of the likes of Gracie (any of them), Lidell, or any of the people that typically fight in pro venues. The average MMa person doesn't have those level of skills, but no doubt they do have valid skills. My personal goal is to be able to handle myself against someone of comparable training in MMA skills against mine. I would expect to be able to deal with what he offers. Perhaps I win, perhaps I lose, but I shouldn't be dismantled at will.

Success in my mind comes from having a very stable foundation. In all the fighting arts I learned (where experienced sport fighters taught), the topic was always the same, have a small skill set you master and rely on those. Don't get fancy or try something you haven't nailed. I think many of the martial arts demos I have seen fails because of this. I see people not having a strong foundation and relying of less that stellar skills. I think the beauty of MMA is that it forces us to be honest and have to bring those skills up to the proper level. My own recent sparring sessions seemed to credit this idea. When I failed in performing my wing chun properly, my execution suffered greatly and I was constantly off balance and played defense. When I happened to stick to what I was capable of doing and ensure that I was doing it properly, the outcome was much more favorable. And in fact, I could see why certain training aspects were vital where I used to take them for granted.

anyways...

So my question is has anyone else gone up against average MMA guys and what was the result? Does anyone have any intention on working with MMA guys? And how do you deal with them? Do you treat them differently, or treat them as any fighter?

MMA fighters are just like boxers, Muay Thai fighters, judoka's ( ok, not as cool as judokas but who is?) and any other types that like hard contact fighting.
They are no less violent or no more, though they seem to like tatoos a lot...

[YungChun]

MMA fighters are just like boxers

IME a very different 'type'.. A boxer won't shoot... :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

IME a very different 'type'.. A boxer won't shoot... :eek:

LOL

Chi blasts at 20 paces !

[YungChun]

LOL

Chi blasts at 20 paces !
Not sure what that means.. :confused:

My point was that when dealing with the MMA type, unlike most other types you have to worry (and train) to deal with, someone who can potentially shoot very well and take it to the ground..

Some folks think that their standard WCK training is enough for this, meaning without working with those who do it and do it well--a mistake IMO..

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA are fighters like any other fighters, the fact that they use certain tools is irrelevant to the "make up" of them as fighters.

so this part:


My thought is that the reason of dominance, at least in one part is because you have a different grade of fighter that competes in these events and learns MMA from those who study more traditional arts. MMA guys are typically alpha males that like aggression. Many of these guys are happy to trade punches and go toe to toe, and some just use MMA as a means for aggression.

Is a gross generalization.

[YungChun]

MMA are fighters like any other fighters, the fact that they use certain tools is irrelevant to the "make up" of them as fighters.

I think there is some truth in what I read into some of those comments..

Meaning that those who want to fight go to places where they WILL FIGHT.. Many TMAists, IMO DON'T WANT TO FIGHT. So they spend their time doing other things, and some of those things, drills and so on are great if done correctly, but they ALSO need to fight or spar at some level to reap real benefits..

Moreover, a guy who decides—I want to fight in MMA—in all likelihood, won't be shopping around for WCK schools or Aikido schools, or any other TMA for the most part, they'll be looking to train at MMA clubs... So, I think when you look at those in TMA vs MMA schools, you will see a very different mindset and reason for training. Of course, as with any generalization, mileage will vary..

[southernkf]

Wow, for a minute I though we needed to dispense ritalin. Glad we are back on topic.

My point sure is a gross over simplification. But that is always the issue when talking with MMA vs any traditional styles. Though, people that tend to do MMA are more aggressive males, especially those that make it to the pro events. Many of the traditional Kung Fu people I have encountered fall into the category that they like to study martial arts. Few enjoy fighting, but they are not the majority. But what I think is we need to compare apples to apples and not compare MMA people who enjoy fighting with those in Kung Fu that don't. Not a good comparison. Compare similarly skilled people and see what they do. And I agree that it is not just an attribute of MMA. Boxers also tend to be aggressive fighters, as do Muy Thai people. In fact, any group that does full contact fighting tends to be in this category.

But any ways, this is a very small part of my post and not really relvant. What about the core of the topic of fighting average MMA people? Do we deal with them specially or as any other art? Who has worked with MMa people and what were their experiences? What did they find were their short commings when dealing with these people? Did you have tattoo envy?:D Did you learn anything about your art in the process?

[anerlich]

Instead of asking a bunch of Wing Chun guys about MMA students, why not go to the source? If you want to find out about France, do you ask a bunch of untravelled Americans or do you speak to people that have lived there? You seem to want reinforcement of your preconceived ideas rather than finding out what actually happens.

Sorry if I sound like Terence "Tourette's" Niehoff... :eek:

The MMA class I attend is mostly young males, but there are some older guys, some over 50, who AFAIK have no intention of ever fighting in a ring, and some females. IMO the crosssection is not dissimilar to what you'd find at a WC school. The proportion of "Alpha males who like fighting," is IMO about the same. But this class is aimed at self-defense as well as sportfighting.

I mainly went there because it was on before the advanced BJJ class to start with (either that or twiddle my thumbs for 75 minutes); but I found they did a lot of clinch stuff which was useful both in BJJ and as an adjunct to my punch/kick game, as was their approach to striking on the ground, using the wall/cage, etc.. Now I really enjoy this class.

As "an MMA student", if I were lucky enough to determine someone was good at pugilism but had no groundfighting experience, I'd do my best to put them on the floor ASAP. Probably clinching to smother their striking opportunities as a prelude.

That's probably the main thing most of those guys would try to do to a WC guy in a sparring match. Figuring, most of the time correctly IMO, that the wc guy's skills would be of limited value there unless they had supplemented them with something else.

If uncertain in a fight, you'd go for the quick KO ASAP so as not to get entangled with someone of an unknown skill level (maybe much better than you).

As a member of a WC school who has students who fight MMA reasonably regularly, I would suggest you try very hard to keep it standing. A couple of the guys lost fights when they were easily out-kickboxing the guy but then decided they needed to do a takedown because, well, it's MMA and you're supposed to - and then eventually got choked out.

[Mr Punch]

This thread makes 'the MMA' out to be some rare beast... like a mountain gorilla or something. They're just people. Some of them have crap fighting skills, but they're not the ones who are going to cause fights, challenge TMAers at random or get on UFC and everybody's TVs.

I've trained MMA at an MMA gym and used my wing chun, my aikido, and the skills that I picked up there from boxing, Thai, wrestling and JJ. It's no big deal. The only people who make it out to be are traditionalists with vested interests.


Remember one more thing: for every winner in an MMA bout, there's a loser.

Er, and that's YOU! :p ;) :D

[IRONMONK]

IMO the crosssection is not dissimilar to what you'd find at a WC school. The proportion of "Alpha males who like fighting," is IMO about the same. .


well according to the guys at Bullshido WC'ers tend to be skinny nerds

[jet64]

LOL

Chi blasts at 20 paces !


Try not to post that kind of nonsense. Keep on the topic

[Ultimatewingchun]

"well according to the guys at Bullshido WC'ers tend to be skinny nerds."


***Big deal. They're trying to sell tickets to their B U L L show.

What else would you expect them to say?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow, for a minute I though we needed to dispense ritalin. Glad we are back on topic.

My point sure is a gross over simplification. But that is always the issue when talking with MMA vs any traditional styles. Though, people that tend to do MMA are more aggressive males, especially those that make it to the pro events. Many of the traditional Kung Fu people I have encountered fall into the category that they like to study martial arts. Few enjoy fighting, but they are not the majority. But what I think is we need to compare apples to apples and not compare MMA people who enjoy fighting with those in Kung Fu that don't. Not a good comparison. Compare similarly skilled people and see what they do. And I agree that it is not just an attribute of MMA. Boxers also tend to be aggressive fighters, as do Muy Thai people. In fact, any group that does full contact fighting tends to be in this category.

But any ways, this is a very small part of my post and not really relvant. What about the core of the topic of fighting average MMA people? Do we deal with them specially or as any other art? Who has worked with MMa people and what were their experiences? What did they find were their short commings when dealing with these people? Did you have tattoo envy?:D Did you learn anything about your art in the process?

Mmmm, Ritalin...Where's Tom Cruise?

Fighters are fighters, they have the same mentaility, the same "ego", regardless of what "techniques" they use.
MMA fighters are no different than boxers or MT fighters or whatever.
I came into MMA from Boxing, fromMT from Kyokushin and judo and I saw no difference in the people in a MMA gym than those I had trained before.
Hard working, dedicated and scrappers.
Sure there seems to be a certain "look" to MMA types, appearence wise, but that is a statement of "fashion" not mentality.
There is no MMA VS TMA mentality in the gym, it is only here, on the net, that it is present.
I remember when I was asked what my MA experience was and I said Kyokushin and judo, the MMA guys didn't say, "oh, those are TMA, they suck", they said, "nice styles, kyokushin is hardcore".

Fighters respect fighters, the respect contact, so maybe that is the difference.

As for average MMA, they fall into that category too, the respect contact.

[t_niehoff]

TMA and MMA are apples and oranges, two entirely different things predicated on two different views or mindsets and two different ways of training.

MMA, in the modern sense, came about (evolved) because fighters realized from fighting other good fighters that they needed to be competant in all "phases" of empty-hand fighting, stand-up, clinch, ground, to stand much of a chance against someone who was well-rounded in their game. And so MMA fighters looked to those functional arts that had proved very successful in stand-up (kickboxing, boxing, MT, etc.), clinch (MT, judo, wrestling, etc.), and ground (BJJ, sambo, wrestling, etc.). As they are competitive athletes, they train to compete -- which means they want their training to work, and work against other really good athletes. So they use functional training methods, work with the best people they can find, constantly look to improve their training, etc.

TMA, on the other hand, has not proved to be very successful in fighting (just in telling stories about how successful they are). The traditional method of training relies mostly on unrealsitic (nonfunctional) exercises, relies on theory of how fighting "should" be, resists change, and is taught almost exclusively by people who can't make their arts work (do the things they train to do as they train to do them) in fighting to any significant degree.

In other words, MMAists are people who really fight and train to fight whereas TMAists are people who don't really fight (at least not with anyone good or to any significant degree) and don't train to fight. MMA is reality-based and TMAs are fantasy-based.

IME MMAists appreciate what fighting is and what it takes to train to develop good fighting skills, and so look at any so-called martial art that is not doing that as essentially BS.

[Tom Kagan]

A recent post/video clip illustrated a point that the average mma person may not be so indestructible as some people suggest.

Which video?

[MisterNoobie]

In other words, MMAists are people who really fight and train to fight whereas TMAists are people who don't really fight (at least not with anyone good or to any significant degree) and don't train to fight. MMA is reality-based and TMAs are fantasy-based.


I suppose i and a few others I train (in an mma school) with are the exception to this. I train bjj right after doing years of tma's now because its fun, and keeps me in shape. I'm just you're average joe with no streak of badass in me. Others that have started training at the same time as me are in a similar situation. Professionals that need to stay in shape, that like watching mma etc.

There are hardcore guys at the school that train way more seriously and are gifted athletes. But the demographic is certainly mixed. Some of these guys would kick my ass with no training at all.

Not even a few miles away is a wing chun school that i trained at briefly. When i trained there i saw a similar demographic.

And based on my observation, the hardcore guys at both schools are tough SOB's that could kick my ass regardless of what 'style' i did.

I'll even go so far as to say that some of the hardcore wing chun guys would seriously hurt some of the hardcore mma guys in a street fight. Would the wing chun guys beat up randy couture? Of course not. But hardcore weekend warrior mma'er vs hardcore wing chunner is a different scenario than the world's top athletes competing for big prize money.

I find it amusing when people point to other stylists getting beat by 'mma' as evidence that mma is more effective. 'Wing chun lost in the octogon therefore wing chun sux kinda attitude. Hasnt BJJ, boxing, muy thai all lost in mma matches as well? Would keith hackney have somehow beat royce gracie if he only studied bjj instead of kempo in UFC 2?

[sanjuro_ronin]

TMA and MMA are apples and oranges, two entirely different things predicated on two different views or mindsets and two different ways of training.

MMA, in the modern sense, came about (evolved) because fighters realized from fighting other good fighters that they needed to be competant in all "phases" of empty-hand fighting, stand-up, clinch, ground, to stand much of a chance against someone who was well-rounded in their game. And so MMA fighters looked to those functional arts that had proved very successful in stand-up (kickboxing, boxing, MT, etc.), clinch (MT, judo, wrestling, etc.), and ground (BJJ, sambo, wrestling, etc.). As they are competitive athletes, they train to compete -- which means they want their training to work, and work against other really good athletes. So they use functional training methods, work with the best people they can find, constantly look to improve their training, etc.

TMA, on the other hand, has not proved to be very successful in fighting (just in telling stories about how successful they are). The traditional method of training relies mostly on unrealsitic (nonfunctional) exercises, relies on theory of how fighting "should" be, resists change, and is taught almost exclusively by people who can't make their arts work (do the things they train to do as they train to do them) in fighting to any significant degree.

In other words, MMAists are people who really fight and train to fight whereas TMAists are people who don't really fight (at least not with anyone good or to any significant degree) and don't train to fight. MMA is reality-based and TMAs are fantasy-based.

IME MMAists appreciate what fighting is and what it takes to train to develop good fighting skills, and so look at any so-called martial art that is not doing that as essentially BS.

Your bashing of TMA is just as bad as the bashing of MMA by some TMA.

Boxing, judo, MT, kyokushin, for example are all proven arts and all TMA.
You keep forgetting that.

Pehaps refering to the systems you have issues with as Non-combat systems or non-fighting systems would be better.

I am a TMA and I trained in TMA and I take offense to what you say.

[t_niehoff]

Your bashing of TMA is just as bad as the bashing of MMA by some TMA.

Boxing, judo, MT, kyokushin, for example are all proven arts and all TMA.
You keep forgetting that.

Pehaps refering to the systems you have issues with as Non-combat systems or non-fighting systems would be better.

I am a TMA and I trained in TMA and I take offense to what you say.

Boxing, judo, MT are not TMAs. They don't have the traditional mindset (but are based on and guided by actual performance results) and they use modern functional training methods.

I am not bashing TMAs, I'm merely telling it as it is. TMAs by their very nature can't develop much in the way of fighting skills. That nature is the traditional mindset and the focus on unrealistic training (which go hand-in-hand and reinforce each other).

If you take a TMA and remove the traditional mindset and change to the modern, functional training model, it will no longer be a TMA. This is what Kano did -- took TMAs in the form of TJJ and by changing those traditional elements, created judo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Boxing, judo, MT are not TMAs. They don't have the traditional mindset (but are based on and guided by actual performance results) and they use modern functional training methods.


Really?
What Traditional mindset is that?
The traditional mindset of "one shot, one kill", to understate the importance of making every shot count and the seriousness of being able to avoid and shot?
The mindset of "the more you bleed in training, the less in combat" ?
The mindset of "only by testing under fire our skills can we be sure of them"?

All views I have learned in TMA.

Again, I think you have a very narrow view of what YOU think are TMA.
You should realise that others have had very different experiences.

[southernkf]

Hey guys,

There are enough threads talking about the lack of skills of TMA, Wing CHun, etc. I hoped to drive discussion towards those that worked with MMA people and how that experienced worked (or didn't). Did they gain any knowledge about their wing chun from it, or knowledge about fighting in general. Not interested in people that havn't done it or people who think it can't be done.

Every time I spar I find out new things. I tend to appreciate the things I learned prior to sparring. I can see how easily I don't adhear to the skills I train, but I also see the ill effects of not adhearing to those skills. I do much better. Sparring at the level I am currently doing it is allowing me to better understand my wing chun. I have yet to work with MMA people, but I plan to change that shortly. My goal isn't to out perform them, but to see how I act and what mistakes I make. Hence my question. How have others experiences worked for them?

[Anthony_ATT]

Which video?

Did he ever post what video he's talking about?

[t_niehoff]

Really?
What Traditional mindset is that?
The traditional mindset of "one shot, one kill", to understate the importance of making every shot count and the seriousness of being able to avoid and shot?
The mindset of "the more you bleed in training, the less in combat" ?
The mindset of "only by testing under fire our skills can we be sure of them"?

All views I have learned in TMA.

Again, I think you have a very narrow view of what YOU think are TMA.
You should realise that others have had very different experiences.

The evidence of the results of TMA fighters speaks for itself. Those people who trained with one shot, one kill, who bled more in training, who tested their skills under fire, haven't seen to achieve any significant results, have they? Where are all the good TMA fighters? On Fantasy Island.

The traditional mindset is view of martial arts not based on actual fighting, and quality results or evidence pertaiing to fighting, but is characterized by being backward-looking (those Shaolin Monks or the ancestors really knew, they had the magic book), theory-based (I konw the concepts/principles of fighting, the contents of teh magic book), authority-centered (do not question the grandmaster, the holder of the magic book), that seeks to preserve itself (the magic book must be preserved) and places the tradition above the individual (you must do what the magic book says).

I'm sure you learned lots of "views" in the TMAs (if anything, they talk a good game), you just won't develop much in the way of fighting skills in the TMAs. And that's because of the nature of traditional training is unrealistic (not alive) exercises.

[southernkf]

No I didn't. That is not relevant to the discussion really and I have a hard time finding it since that thread was so active and it is buried.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The evidence of the results of TMA fighters speaks for itself. Those people who trained with one shot, one kill, who bled more in training, who tested their skills under fire, haven't seen to achieve any significant results, have they? Where are all the good TMA fighters? On Fantasy Island.

The traditional mindset is view of martial arts not based on actual fighting, and quality results or evidence pertaiing to fighting, but is characterized by being backward-looking (those Shaolin Monks or the ancestors really knew, they had the magic book), theory-based (I konw the concepts/principles of fighting, the contents of teh magic book), authority-centered (do not question the grandmaster, the holder of the magic book), that seeks to preserve itself (the magic book must be preserved) and places the tradition above the individual (you must do what the magic book says).

I'm sure you learned lots of "views" in the TMAs (if anything, they talk a good game), you just won't develop much in the way of fighting skills in the TMAs. And that's because of the nature of traditional training is unrealistic (not alive) exercises.

I think you have had some horrific experiences with TMA, I feel for you.
Some of us have had nothing but good ones, well, most of them have been good LOL !
As for good TMA, guys like Andy Hug and Filho, all those Judokas and Thai fighters out there, yeah, where are they....

[anerlich]

I think southernkf may have been referring to Bullshido's "MMA sucks" video.

Why waste your time arguing with Terence? You aren't going to change his mind, and if you have any sense at all he's not going to change yours. Ignore his posts, they're pretty much all identical anyway.

[Liddel]

T just believes you cant have a TMA that has more modern approaches to fighting. He generalises believing that if a style is referred to as a TMA.....
its exactly that, traditional
- something unchanged since inception centuries ago.

Which is a case of style using you, not you using the style... the very thing ive been taught not to do.

Moreover he thinks that if you blend traditional stuff with modern stuff you are still stuck in the dark ages - they dont lend skills to one another.

In this regard I believe hes only talking about one particular part of a whole community (although his generalisations seem aimed at the community as a whole)

Which there in, lies the hump. His ramblings are misplaced - they should be left in the comments of those less than average youtube videos he seems to think represent any and all people that lable themselves with the same style.

He's a product of his own experiences which obviously were so bad he feels he needs to save others from the same ill fate.
Why else would he do what he does here, on a VT forum - day in day out ?

Its a catch 22 with this guy.

A more modern approach is need.
Im aware and changing the method while keeping the style.
No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

Rinse repeat....

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

TROLL.

DREW

[YungChun]

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

You left out a couple of variants..

The If it works it's not real WCK.. (T)

The If it works it's in spite of the other training. (D)

The If it works it's because the other guy was little.. (D)

Hmmmm...

What others can we think of?

[YungChun]

Which video?
That would be these: (inferior vs superior systems)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2237585
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2288188

[Anthony_ATT]

That would be these: (inferior vs superior systems)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2237585
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2288188

Those were awesome videos. One day I'd like to spar with someone like that.

Friendly, and learning from each other.

[Matrix]

Those were awesome videos. One day I'd like to spar with someone like that.

Friendly, and learning from each other.Anthony,
You've touched on a very important truth here. You can learn alot during a friendly exchange with someone. It allows you to work on your skills, timing, footwork etc. I truely hope that you get to "spar" like that from time to time.

Bill

[Knifefighter]

That would be these: (inferior vs superior systems)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2237585
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2288188

Or did you mean these clips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcr67dmiaDI

[jesper]

Wow out of 6½ min of vid, it shows 15 seconds against a WC practicisioner and still feel the need to specificly mention that style in the headline :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anthony,
You've touched on a very important truth here. You can learn alot during a friendly exchange with someone. It allows you to work on your skills, timing, footwork etc. I truely hope that you get to "spar" like that from time to time.

Bill

friendly exchanges are great when both parties truly understand that they are going light contact and as such, especially in regards to striking, the results are quite irrelevant.
In any match up where striking is involved, hard contact ( if not full) must be done or it will have ZERO effect on the outcome UNLESS the person receiving the strikes is "honest" enough to react to them.
Then again, it hard to react to "slaps" and we go back to the same problem.

Light contact is great for grappling, not so much for striking or MMA.

[t_niehoff]

friendly exchanges are great when both parties truly understand that they are going light contact and as such, especially in regards to striking, the results are quite irrelevant.
In any match up where striking is involved, hard contact ( if not full) must be done or it will have ZERO effect on the outcome UNLESS the person receiving the strikes is "honest" enough to react to them.
Then again, it hard to react to "slaps" and we go back to the same problem.

Light contact is great for grappling, not so much for striking or MMA.

The real problem IME when going at a lower intensity is maintaining the realism, to behave, act, respond, etc. as you really would while going 100%. People who don't spend much time really sparring/fighting at 100% often believe what they are doing will work at 100% (theory) and that all they will need to do is bump up the intensity should they ever need to. This is not the case. Going at intensity (100%) limits a great deal those things we can really do, how we can act, react, behave, etc. There are all kinds of ways to walk funny but if you run full-out (sprint), you'll find your body can only move in one way.

So you need to begin in your training with that understanding. Much of the stuff people commonly train in WCK just won't work at intensity. They beleive it will, but if they put it in the pressure-cooker, they would see they can't really do it. So to continue to practice that way of moving is essentially a waste of time: you're practicing to do something you never will be able to do. Which means you are training to fail.

As I said, you need to begin your training with an understanding and appreciation of what you can really do at 100%, not in theory, but in reality. This comes only from experience -- your own and your instructor (presuming he knows, which means he can do it atintensity himself). Once you can do it at 100% under realistic conditions (in realistic sparring - more on this below), then and only then can you "lower" the intensity in your training. But you still need to keep going back to full intensity to maintain the check on the realism.

Two other related things:

First, anytime we are not practicing/training at full intensity there is a tendency to let unrealsitic crap creep in to what we are doing. Our bodies naturally try to find the easiest ways to perform. At lower intensities and especially with unrealsitic conditions this means finding ways that may use less movement, energy, etc. and still succeed. But those things won't work at higher intensity under realsitic conditions. It is very easy to trick ourselves. You must keep this in mind and constantly go back to full intensity training to check yourself.

Second, everyone spars. But most sparring is not realistic. It doesn't correspond to the conditions, intensity, actions, etc. of a full-out, 100%, destroy-the-guy fight. Most often it is more like play-fighting. Play fighting won't develop realsitic skills. Only realistic training/sparring builds those skills.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You need a balance of hard contact and moderate contact, you can't go "balls to the wall" all the time.
And while light contatc can be usefull when introducing sparring to a rookie, it should be very small part of ones training (if at all) once harder contact has begun.

[t_niehoff]

You need a balance of hard contact and moderate contact, you can't go "balls to the wall" all the time.
And while light contatc can be usefull when introducing sparring to a rookie, it should be very small part of ones training (if at all) once harder contact has begun.

I'm not suggesting (where did you read that I was?) going 100% all of the time. Just regularly. A trainee can reduce the intensity once they know how to move at intensity. Then, they can practice moving as they will really be moving. But they can only know that from moving at intensity first. They need to routinely and regularly go back to full intensity to keep their training (at lower intensity) honest.

[southernkf]

Wow, I give up.

you all ***** at terence, but you all are actually worse at hijacking threads and not discussing topics. This thread went off course prior to Terence and now we are three pages in to the topic with allmost no one commenting on the topic and Terence only making up about 3 -4 posts. Yikes.

In any case, no it was the bullshido video. But really it doesn't matter what video. My point was how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced. But we can't generate usefull discussion, so I'll bail out and you guys can continue on taking this thread where ever it is going. I'll just chime in on various posts from time to time.

[t_niehoff]

Wow, I give up.

you all ***** at terence, but you all are actually worse at hijacking threads and not discussing topics. This thread went off course prior to Terence and now we are three pages in to the topic with allmost no one commenting on the topic and Terence only making up about 3 -4 posts. Yikes.

In any case, no it was the bullshido video. But really it doesn't matter what video. My point was how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced. But we can't generate usefull discussion, so I'll bail out and you guys can continue on taking this thread where ever it is going. I'll just chime in on various posts from time to time.

You wanted to know:

"how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced?"

Let's rephrase the question: how can boxers develop better skills and learn their art and what others have experienced? How can BJJ people develop better skill and learn their art and what others have experienced?

We, as fighters, must all do it the same way. This isn't rocket science.

The answer is by DOING IT, by going out and training with proven good fighters, sparring with good fighters. If you don't do that, you'll never be a good boxer, a good BJJ fighter or a good WCK fighter or a good MMA fighter. Use the same training process that all proven fighters use and all good open-skill athletes use. That's the answer.

Simple.

Do you think you are going to learn anything from boxers who haven't done that, from BJJ people who haven't done that, from MMA people who haven't done that -- then why believe you can learn anything from WCK people who haven't done that?

[southernkf]

Hi Terence,

I understand what your saying. You have been saying that for a while. I am not interesting in debating the "just do it" mentality. What I am asking is what did those that did it get from it? I have been sparring (not currently with MMA people) and I have found all kinds of interesting things from my experience. So far most of it has validated what I learned.

So, I'll ask you, what has your experience been when training with MMA people? Did it help you understand wing chun any better? Did you find wing chun doesn't work, it works when modified, always works, or something different? I am not so much interested in hearing how bad wing chun sucks. We get that view enough. I am interested in hearing if any one had successful interactions. Not necessarily winning and dominating, but they were able to work out and identify fixable problems in technique, form, implementation, strategy, etc.

[Tom Kagan]

In any case, no it was the bullshido video. But really it doesn't matter what video. My point was how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced.

This video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtl1myuoDH0

[t_niehoff]

Hi Terence,

I understand what your saying. You have been saying that for a while. I am not interesting in debating the "just do it" mentality. What I am asking is what did those that did it get from it? I have been sparring (not currently with MMA people) and I have found all kinds of interesting things from my experience. So far most of it has validated what I learned.


The problem with "sparring" is that just about everyone in martial arts spars. And they all think they are doing fairly well. But most of them still don't get very good -- which is easily seen when they spar with someone that is good. Sparring in TMAs is most often done with other poor fighters, doing similar crappy things, not acting realistically, etc. It is more a form of playfighting. And all it does is reinforce the fantasy.

The most important feature is the quality of the sparring -- the level of intensity, the level of the opponents, the realistic nature, etc. This is why I suggest a good MMA gym, MT school, boxing gym, etc., places where fighters, good fighters, really train.

I think that if your sparring has validated what you have learned in WCK, then you have not been sparring with good people or sparring realistically. I say that not to **** you off or belittle you but because WCK application does not correspond to the tradtional WCK training. If you don't believe me, go see for yourself -- go visit some place where good (proven) fighters spar and mix it up at 100%, and see if you can do those things you train to do as you have trained to do them. You won't. No one traditionally trained can.

This is not a WCK sucks diatribe. I've never said WCK sucks. The traditional mindset and training method of TMAs suck. Yes, those are a part of WCK. But we can discard them from our WCK.



So, I'll ask you, what has your experience been when training with MMA people? Did it help you understand wing chun any better? Did you find wing chun doesn't work, it works when modified, always works, or something different? I am not so much interested in hearing how bad wing chun sucks. We get that view enough. I am interested in hearing if any one had successful interactions. Not necessarily winning and dominating, but they were able to work out and identify fixable problems in technique, form, implementation, strategy, etc.

What I've found is that fighting will "look" (feel, etc.) like MMA/NHB regardless of your style or art when you are really hard-pressed (by the intensity and/or skill of the opponent). And that's what you have to prepare for. Your WCK tools need to fit and work in that chaotic, violent mess. Your body/mind has to be prepared and conditioned for that chaotic, violent mess. The traditional training of WCK, the unreaslistic exercises, won't prepare you for that. All it does is make the trainee familiar with the tools/skills of WCK. They don't pertain to genuine application -- how you can really use those tools/skills in fighting. In fact, the range, facing, energy, timing, etc. of all the drills not anything like genuine application.

If you are interested, you might visit Alan Orr's website and purchase his WCK for NHB videos -- that would be a good start and giveyou some idea of what I am talking about.

[sihing]

The problem with "sparring" is that just about everyone in martial arts spars. And they all think they are doing fairly well. But most of them still don't get very good -- which is easily seen when they spar with someone that is good. Sparring in TMAs is most often done with other poor fighters, doing similar crappy things, not acting realistically, etc. It is more a form of playfighting. And all it does is reinforce the fantasy.

The most important feature is the quality of the sparring -- the level of intensity, the level of the opponents, the realistic nature, etc. This is why I suggest a good MMA gym, MT school, boxing gym, etc., places where fighters, good fighters, really train.

I think that if your sparring has validated what you have learned in WCK, then you have not been sparring with good people or sparring realistically. I say that not to **** you off or belittle you but because WCK application does not correspond to the tradtional WCK training. If you don't believe me, go see for yourself -- go visit some place where good (proven) fighters spar and mix it up at 100%, and see if you can do those things you train to do as you have trained to do them. You won't. No one traditionally trained can.

This is not a WCK sucks diatribe. I've never said WCK sucks. The traditional mindset and training method of TMAs suck. Yes, those are a part of WCK. But we can discard them from our WCK.



What I've found is that fighting will "look" (feel, etc.) like MMA/NHB regardless of your style or art when you are really hard-pressed (by the intensity and/or skill of the opponent). And that's what you have to prepare for. Your WCK tools need to fit and work in that chaotic, violent mess. Your body/mind has to be prepared and conditioned for that chaotic, violent mess. The traditional training of WCK, the unreaslistic exercises, won't prepare you for that. All it does is make the trainee familiar with the tools/skills of WCK. They don't pertain to genuine application -- how you can really use those tools/skills in fighting. In fact, the range, facing, energy, timing, etc. of all the drills not anything like genuine application.

If you are interested, you might visit Alan Orr's website and purchase his WCK for NHB videos -- that would be a good start and giveyou some idea of what I am talking about.

From Previous Liddel post:
"Its a catch 22 with this guy.

A more modern approach is need. T
Im aware and changing the method while keeping the style. US
No the style doesnt work. T
Ive found it does for me. US
It doesnt work against high level people. T
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down. US
Your sparring low level people. T
They have good skills. US
If it works they must be 5hit ! T
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods. US

Rinse repeat....

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods."

Thx for the laugh T :):):):)

James

[southernkf]

The problem with "sparring" is that just about everyone in martial arts spars. And they all think they are doing fairly well. But most of them still don't get very good -- which is easily seen when they spar with someone that is good. Sparring in TMAs is most often done with other poor fighters, doing similar crappy things, not acting realistically, etc. It is more a form of playfighting. And all it does is reinforce the fantasy.

The most important feature is the quality of the sparring ...

I can't help the fact people don't spar correctly. There is different levels of sparring and you should be sparring at a level that challenges you, with different people rather than the same ones who react in similar ways. I agree with what you say, but I don't think it is relevant to the topic. Meaning I can't help it if they aren't doing things the right way. Quality is indeed the important factor. My sparring is not where I want it, but it is good for where I am at. Once I get a handle on it I'll ratchet it up. Hopefully I'll find like minded people and get a larger group to work with. Hopefull it will include MMA as well as others.


I think that if your sparring has validated what you have learned in WCK, then you have not been sparring with good people or sparring realistically. I say that not to **** you off or belittle you but because WCK application does not correspond to the tradtional WCK training. If you don't believe me, go see for yourself -- go visit some place where good (proven) fighters spar and mix it up at 100%, and see if you can do those things you train to do as you have trained to do them. You won't. No one traditionally trained can.
I don't take offense at what your saying and it doesn't **** me off. But I do think it is a bit naive. You feel that wing chun training cannot train you to be a good fighter. I disagree and think there are great skills there. I am not interested in a debate of the utlitmate martial arts. Even if your correct about it not holding up to MMA people, it still holds up in general. But just for the record, the clip between Dale and Rashun did not show MMA domination as you tend to suggest. But to be fair the clips was just a fraction of the whole exchange.

Here is my thought on this topic. Prior to the Gracies, JiuJitsu was not condisdered to be a dominate art. Many people laughed and joked about it. My first wing chun school shared space with JuiJitsu people and our teacher and senior students did not have difficulty holding their own against them. Then came the Gracies (atleast with public noterity). They worked on a classical system and trained very effectivly with it. They modernized it no doubt, but the techniques Royce in particular used are classical techniques are they not? Working with a system in a unrealistic environment is just a false sense of security. Gracie's worked with their system and learned where it worked. They don't seem to me to be denying the Classical JiuJitsu. I havn't really studied much on them, but what little I have shows them training in basic jiu jitsu skills. Not sure why Wing Chun is any different. Wing Chun done the way it is designed to work is valid. I agree that most people don't seem able to pull it off. But that is their problem. My goal is to figure out how it works, and that includes trying it out in class with mutual friends as well in sparring sessions and hopefull some of the open exchanges that occur hear and their with MMA type people.



This is not a WCK sucks diatribe. I've never said WCK sucks. The traditional mindset and training method of TMAs suck. Yes, those are a part of WCK. But we can discard them from our WCK.

OK, I take everything back. LOL. Cool, wing chun doesn't suck. Then with that out of the way I partially agree. I think Uke syndrom runs rampant in most all schools. Some more than others, and some or more honest about it. I think the tradional approach, atleast what I have been exposed to, is a valid approach for teaching the skill portion. You start from a point of no skill and progress in much the same way a Concert Violinist would. You spend years refining your skills prior to playing in the big concert. Prior to that your in recitals that really don't mean much. MMA, and your view is more akin to a blues mucsican that may or may not have technical talent, but plays befors crowds as soon as possible. There different approaches. I think with the tradional approach you do have to go outside the norm and test yourself. And this actually is part of many schools. Yip Man advise people to go test it out, as we often cite and hear. Choy Li Fut schools did the same as did Lam Sai Wing and Lam Jo's Schools. Many others did too. Fighting has been part of traditional schools for a long time. But I feel today martial arts has become a suburbs sport where people arn't interested in fighting. Or atleast the ratio of people interested in fighting is much smaller than those interested in just learning. So you begin to have the phoenomenon you have been banging your drum about for so long. Get out there and test it against good quality people. And if you fail, analyze WHY you failed and see if it was because the arts just sucks or because you didn't utilize the art in the right way? I suspect it often will be the later. But what do I know? I am still figuring it out. LOL


What I've found is that fighting will "look" (feel, etc.) like MMA/NHB regardless of your style or art when you are really hard-pressed (by the intensity and/or skill of the opponent). And that's what you have to prepare for. Your WCK tools need to fit and work in that chaotic, violent mess. Your body/mind has to be prepared and conditioned for that chaotic, violent mess. The traditional training of WCK, the unreaslistic exercises, won't prepare you for that. All it does is make the trainee familiar with the tools/skills of WCK. They don't pertain to genuine application -- how you can really use those tools/skills in fighting. In fact, the range, facing, energy, timing, etc. of all the drills not anything like genuine application.


Finally, some one addressing the hear of the topic. THis is the stuff I wanted. Yeah, that "eye of the tiger" to use a horid phrase of a Rocky movie. Fighting is as much a mind set as it is a skill set. You have to have the heart and drive of a fighter. How many times have you seen a technically good fighter quit in a ring because he lost his desire to fight? It happens. A good punch to the face can sap that out of you. The school itself doesn't teach you that. Some people are born with it (or into it). Others never get it. But I disagree that a school doesn't focus on it. In fact I have heard several people focus on it. Gary Lam has talked about this very thing when discussing the Knives. My line talks at great length about it, especially in regards to Biu Jee. But it permeates the art. We arn't supposed to become slackjawed while chi sauing or looking off to the side. THere is an intensity in what we do. You have to develop that skill. This may only be a portion of what your talking about, but the fighters of wing chun do have it and do address it. This is why I look at much that you have said and I shake my head. Look for those that have the skills. Don't paint us all with the same brush based on Youtube clips and a few bad wing chun showings.

As for Alan Orr, I saw a couple clips, I think on wingchunfightclub.com or something. I wasn't as impressed with what I saw, meaning I wanted to see other stuff. But it seemed good quality stufff for the ring. It is hard to critique it now as I didn't really study it. But I am interested in seeing more from him as well as others. I would love to see more of Rick Spain, who I think has some pretty good skills. I am interested in some of the Gary Lam stuff, though I am not sure if they spar and mix it up with MMA, but I like some of the stuff they do and ideas. All though I am not a fighter by heart, I hope to be able to mix it up and prove to myself if all this time and effort is worth it. Maybe you and others are right in that it just doesn't work. I just have a hard time buying that. LOL. But in any case, I'll look into Orr's stuff.

Despite what others say, I still enjoy talking with you cause you do focus on reality and can think critically about various topics. Not saying your always right, but that you don't drink the coolaid. LOL

[Knifefighter]

Prior to the Gracies, JiuJitsu was not condisdered to be a dominate art. Many people laughed and joked about it. My first wing chun school shared space with JuiJitsu people and our teacher and senior students did not have difficulty holding their own against them. Then came the Gracies (atleast with public noterity). They worked on a classical system and trained very effectivly with it. They modernized it no doubt, but the techniques Royce in particular used are classical techniques are they not? Working with a system in a unrealistic environment is just a false sense of security. Gracie's worked with their system and learned where it worked. They don't seem to me to be denying the Classical JiuJitsu.


BJJ and claissical classical jujutsuhave no affiliation, other than the fact that Kano modified jujutsu into judo which was modified into BJJ by the Brazilians.

BJJ and classical jujutsu might be very distant cousins, but BJJ is no more classical JJ than Sambo is. As a matter of fact Sambo and BJJ are much closer than BJJ and JJ, even though they were developed separately.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Finally, some one addressing the hear of the topic. THis is the stuff I wanted. Yeah, that "eye of the tiger" to use a horid phrase of a Rocky movie. Fighting is as much a mind set as it is a skill set. You have to have the heart and drive

I addressed this in my very first post, MMA fighters are no different than other fighters ( technique aside), the fighter mindset is in all fighters, regardless of discipline.
And the only way to understand it and deal with is to fight them, period.

[southernkf]

Ohh, sorry. I must have misinterpreted what you were saying.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ohh, sorry. I must have misinterpreted what you were saying.

No worries.

Trying to focus on dealing with a fighters technique is a "first level" or "superficial" stage, where some end up "fighting the opponents fight".
You wanna fight the intent, the mindset if you will.
To understand what it means to fight a MMA, average or otherwise, one must simply fight them.
Yes, technique and strategy are important, but they will vary from figher to fighter, sometimes to a huge degree as you go from combat art to combat art, but the basic mindset remains to be quite the same.