Does Function Ever Follow Form in TMA Today?

[FlyingCrane]

It seems that many, if not most people in TMA spend much time practicing forms, as well as techniques and fighting theories that are an integral part of whatever style of TMA that they are studying. However, when it comes to fighting, or even sparring, it seems that much of this is abandoned.

Watching a UFC match between, for example, someone who has trained in a Wing Chun background vs someone from a Shotokan background, one may be hard pressed to notice a lot of differences in their approaches to combat. You may see the Wing Chun trained opponent occasionally using a straight blast of vertical punches, or perhaps attempting some hand trapping, but by and large, their fighting styles usually look very similar.

However, if you were to go back and observe the classical Wing Chun training of one, and the classical Shotokan training of the other, you would see huge differences in the way that each respectively drilled and trained with regards to blocking and striking methods, etc. And yet, when it comes to actually fighting, both sides seemingly throw most of all of that classical training out the window, and essentially do what has come to be called Kickboxing.

It seems that there used to be no holds barred tournaments where different styles would compete, and function would always follow form. A Praying Mantis stylist looked like a Praying Mantis stylist when fighting, a Monkey stylist looked like a Monkey stylist when fighting, a Karate guy looked like a Karate guy, etc. And there are still some instructors around today who insist that function always follows form in the arts that they teach. They say that when their students spar, you know immediately that they are doing Mantis, or Snake, or Crane, or whatever style that school is teaching. Yet you never seem to see anyone like this competing in MMA tournaments, etc.

So the question is, why exactly has this kind of fighting seemingly all but vanished in the TMA world, and the MA world in general? Did most people just realize over time that most of the classical stuff just wasn't all that practical in combat, regardless of how intensely one trained in it, and that hybrid forms of Kickboxing and MMA are truly more effective when it comes to actually fighting? Or is the amount of time and effort that is required to truly learn how to fight effectively in most classical styles just not practical for most of us in today's society?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It seems that many, if not most people in TMA spend much time practicing forms, as well as techniques and fighting theories that are an integral part of whatever style of TMA that they are studying. However, when it comes to fighting, or even sparring, it seems that much of this is abandoned.

Watching a UFC match between, for example, someone who has trained in a Wing Chun background vs someone from a Shotokan background, one may be hard pressed to notice a lot of differences in their approaches to combat. You may see the Wing Chun trained opponent occasionally using a straight blast of vertical punches, or perhaps attempting some hand trapping, but by and large, their fighting styles usually look very similar.

However, if you were to go back and observe the classical Wing Chun training of one, and the classical Shotokan training of the other, you would see huge differences in the way that each respectively drilled and trained with regards to blocking and striking methods, etc. And yet, when it comes to actually fighting, both sides seemingly throw most of all of that classical training out the window, and essentially do what has come to be called Kickboxing.

It seems that there used to be no holds barred tournaments where different styles would compete, and function would always follow form. A Praying Mantis stylist looked like a Praying Mantis stylist when fighting, a Monkey stylist looked like a Monkey stylist when fighting, a Karate guy looked like a Karate guy, etc. And there are still some instructors around today who insist that function always follows form in the arts that they teach. They say that when their students spar, you know immediately that they are doing Mantis, or Snake, or Crane, or whatever style that school is teaching. Yet you never seem to see anyone like this competing in MMA tournaments, etc.

So the question is, why exactly has this kind of fighting seemingly all but vanished in the TMA world, and the MA world in general? Did most people just realize over time that most of the classical stuff just wasn't all that practical in combat, regardless of how intensely one trained in it, and that hybrid forms of Kickboxing and MMA are truly more effective when it comes to actually fighting? Or is the amount of time and effort that is required to truly learn how to fight effectively in most classical styles just not practical for most of us in today's society?

Its combination of factors.
The ruelset will dictate the "look" of techniques, things like goves, a cage, a boxing ring, etc.
Very few systems train to fight other systems, they tend to "spar themselves", to their own undoing.
The Gracies were so sucessful early on because they exposed their MA to other MA and learned how to fight their fight, regardless of who they were fighting.
Most systmes don't do that, ex:
Take a shotokan teacher that wants to expose his students to grappling to better preapre them, quite noble and smart, but instead of brining in a trained grappler, he tries to do a few "take downs" and such, very bad idea.

Function and form CAN be identical when TRAINED to be as such under the stress of real fighting VS various modes of combat, WC will look like WC VS WC but it won't look that way vs MT, UNLESS it has been trained that way VS MT.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Long Fist fights pretty much like Kickboxing with locks and throws anyway, so Form and function are pretty much the same there.

[Shaolinlueb]

it seems some school's want to preserve TCMA so badly that they focus solely on forms and applications and negate the sparring aspect.

Sparring should be covered but not something that teaches your students to become lethal killers.

to teach point sparring by itself is useless i think. it gives students the "johnny syndrome" (we all remember karate kid right?) where they think they are lethal fighters. sparring is a good tool to simulate a kick boxing match. since that is all you can really do, no take downs or chin na's. maybe sweeping the front leg, depends.

Sparring with using throws, takedowns, applications, and chin na's at a higher level (with contact, either medium or heavy) i think is more beneficial in developing a fighter. does this mean a praying mantis guy should look like something? no, it means they should be able to effectivly apply the techniques they learn and practice in a free sparring format. everyone has trained against the 1 punch simulation, now do it free sparring.

just cause someone is a good sparrer though does not mean they are a good fighter. i have seen plenty of silly hits in sparring that count as points which sometimes leaves the person getting hit saying "what?"

kung fu was developed over thousands of years and has worked. does any one think they were onto something?

as for the gracies, they are good. i think bjj is great for tournament style stuff. i have seen a couple bjj videos of them taking on kung fu guys, i thought the kung fu guys were awful.

[sanjuro_ronin]

as for the gracies, they are good. i think bjj is great for tournament style stuff. i have seen a couple bjj videos of them taking on kung fu guys, i thought the kung fu guys were awful.

Most systems, if not all, would look awful when take out of their element, an dthat is the key factor of form and function.
Context and element/environment.

[MasterKiller]

kung fu was developed over thousands of years and has worked. does any one think they were onto something?

A lot of Kung Fu only works against Kung Fu, just like a lot of BJJ only works against BJJ.

If your opponent isn't trying to create a bridge or collapse yours, then a lot of general Kung Fu techniques aren't going to work.

[Shaolinlueb]

If your opponent isn't trying to create a bridge or collapse yours, then a lot of general Kung Fu techniques aren't going to work.

true. but there is enough kung fu out there to bridge, its most people dont see it as "traditional to their style" and will filter it out forever hurting themselves. kung fu has always been about aquriing techniques to make it better.

why can't we aquire ground skills and stopping the shoot skills and adapt it into the systems we do? does it mean we are not wrestlers and bjj artists? no it means we absorbed it. god as much as i hate saying this its the "jeet kun dao" philosophy. but i always though take in whats good, throw out what doesnt work has been kung fu philosophy.

[MasterKiller]

why can't we aquire ground skills and stopping the shoot skills and adapt it into the systems we do? ... but i always though take in whats good, throw out what doesnt work has been kung fu philosophy.

Well, that's what I'm doing and it works for me.