Wah Lum Forms

[CeruleanRyuujin]

Can anyone provide insight on where the individual Wah Lum hand forms came from? Which were created by Chan? Which ones were added for performance value? Which ones do you think actually teach good fight theory vs performance? (Yes, anything can be said to be this or that... but which ones actually in your opinion teach fight theory)

The external empty hand forms (per 1983) are:

Level #10
16 Hands
Little Open Gate
Wah Lum 1st form
Straight Form

Level #9
Seven Kicks
Second Form
18 Elbows
2 Men Forms
Little Mantis

Level #8
4th Form
36 Hands
Leopard
Lo Han

Level #7
3rd form
Buddha Palm
Fan Cha

Level #6
5th Form
6th Form
Big Mantis

Advanced Level
Drunken Form
Swallow
Plum flower
six corners
18 kicks
18 locking hands
tin fong fingers
so lo sow
luck low
Tong Long Juk Dung
Soft form

[Chop Socki]

I'll apologize in advance if I'm misinterpreting your intentions, but I have to say it: this has the smell of bomb throwing purely for entertainment value, in which case I'm going to take a pass.

Forms are not magical 'truths' created by a supreme deity and passed down from a mountain on stone tablets; they're simply sequences of movements that, hopefully, simulate combinations of techniques that might reasonably be useful in fighting situations. They also can be used to improve balance, increase strength, grow hair and pick up chicks. That's it.

Every time a post like this shows up on these forums, the same group of people leap in with gleeful abandon to try and find some way to tie the integrity of a system (and by extension, its practitioners) to the age and/or creator of a hand form.

If you study a system because you like its forms, the fact that the local school has new carpeting, or you think the cut of their uniform makes your butt look nice, stop reading now. If you're still reading and you believe that a form is nothing more than what I described above, then things like age and 'author' really don't matter even a little. You either appreciate the applications and training benefits, in which case you practice it with great enthusiasm, or you don't, in which case you don't practice it. I've seen people in these forums bash a form simply because they believed Master Chan created it. As the acknowledged grand master of the Wah Lum system, if he isn't entitled to expand the system, who is?

Pardon my rant.

- CS

[Tainan Mantis]

Here are the original 12 forms of Lee Kwan Shan.
The Cantonese as it was given to me by an elder of MC Chan.

The Mandarin is my addition.

1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
2.lan jeet -lan jie
3.baht zhao -ba zhou
4.tam toy -tan tuei
5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA little mantis
7.dai fan che -da fan che
8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy -yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
9.yee lo""""""""""""""""""""""second route""""""""""""""""""
10.saam lo""""""""""""""""""""""third route""""""""""""""""""""
11.yau ling kuen
12.yin ji chuen lum


Presently wl has several fanche forms so I do not know if the one done know is what was done then.

I have noticed that Little Mantis had more moves put in since I learned it. I don't knowif that is for demo or what.

Little Mantis is an important form of WL. So much so that MC Chan's teacher wrote an article about ti before he passed away.

One of the important aspects of Mantis left off your list is 8 Chain punch.

I believe that this is the strike four gates methods found in Taiji Mantis.

The difference being that it should be performed with jumps to the four corners like a monkey or gibbon.

The WL way has a bit of a Karate-ness to it.

kevin
www.Plumflowermantisboxing.com

[CeruleanRyuujin]

I'll apologize in advance if I'm misinterpreting your intentions, but I have to say it: this has the smell of bomb throwing purely for entertainment value, in which case I'm going to take a pass.

Forms are not magical 'truths' created by a supreme deity and passed down from a mountain on stone tablets; they're simply sequences of movements that, hopefully, simulate combinations of techniques that might reasonably be useful in fighting situations. They also can be used to improve balance, increase strength, grow hair and pick up chicks. That's it.

Every time a post like this shows up on these forums, the same group of people leap in with gleeful abandon to try and find some way to tie the integrity of a system (and by extension, its practitioners) to the age and/or creator of a hand form.

If you study a system because you like its forms, the fact that the local school has new carpeting, or you think the cut of their uniform makes your butt look nice, stop reading now. If you're still reading and you believe that a form is nothing more than what I described above, then things like age and 'author' really don't matter even a little. You either appreciate the applications and training benefits, in which case you practice it with great enthusiasm, or you don't, in which case you don't practice it. I've seen people in these forums bash a form simply because they believed Master Chan created it. As the acknowledged grand master of the Wah Lum system, if he isn't entitled to expand the system, who is?

Pardon my rant.

- CS

Yeah this is exactly what i hope to avoid, or at least wade through the bashing to get some history that is not readily available.

I agree Chan or anyone for that matter can design a form and there will be value to it. My goal is not to stir up bashing, just to get some history... nothing more or less...

[CeruleanRyuujin]

Here are the original 12 forms of Lee Kwan Shan.
The Cantonese as it was given to me by an elder of MC Chan.

The Mandarin is my addition.

1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
2.lan jeet -lan jie
3.baht zhao -ba zhou
4.tam toy -tan tuei
5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA little mantis
7.dai fan che -da fan che
8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy -yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
9.yee lo""""""""""""""""""""""second route""""""""""""""""""
10.saam lo""""""""""""""""""""""third route""""""""""""""""""""
11.yau ling kuen
12.yin ji chuen lum


Presently wl has several fanche forms so I do not know if the one done know is what was done then.

I have noticed that Little Mantis had more moves put in since I learned it. I don't knowif that is for demo or what.

Little Mantis is an important form of WL. So much so that MC Chan's teacher wrote an article about ti before he passed away.

One of the important aspects of Mantis left off your list is 8 Chain punch.

I believe that this is the strike four gates methods found in Taiji Mantis.

The difference being that it should be performed with jumps to the four corners like a monkey or gibbon.

The WL way has a bit of a Karate-ness to it.

kevin
www.Plumflowermantisboxing.com

thank you, this is exactly the type of feedback i was hoping for.

[mantis108]

I recently came into some interesting information concerning Meihua Shuai Shou line. It is said that Bao Guang Ying's lineage look something like this:

Liang Xue Xiang - Sun Yuan Chang - Sun Yuan Cai - Ji Chun Ting - Bao Guang Yiing

It is also said that Sun Yuan Cai often accepts students on behalf of his "brother" Sun Yuan Chang (1846? - 1935). Bao Guang Ying used to address Sun Yuan Cai as Kung Fu Uncle although Bao is enrolled under SYC.

There are a few interesting things about this claim:

1) Ji Chun Ting is considered from Jiang Hua Long's line. So why is he in the Sun Yuan Chang line? Did he learned from both lines?

2) I used to think that Bao Guang Ying has connection as a armed escort to Liang Xue Xiang's son Liang Jing Chuan, who also worked as an armed escort in Beijing. It would seem that Meihua Tanglang and Taiji Meihwa Tanglang both are connected to the armed escort trade. Taiji Meihwa Tanglang seemed to have absorbed a lot of materials that could have come frome Sun Bin Quan ( ie the White Ape series, Xiao Hu Yan, Yue Jia Quan, etc...)

3) This suggest that Meihua Shuai Shou is another hybrid of GML. If WL is related to Meihua Shuai Shou, then WL before Master Chan is a hybrid of Meihua Shuai Shou and Tan Tui. The current direction of WL seems to be Mantis (not very emphasized in general), Tan Tui and CLF (some say Hung Gar).

4)If this curriculum holds truth:

1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
2.lan jeet -lan jie
3.baht zhao -ba zhou
4.tam toy -tan tuei
5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA little mantis
7.dai fan che -da fan che
8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy -yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
9.yee lo""""""""""""""""""""""second route""""""""""""""""""
10.saam lo""""""""""""""""""""""third route""""""""""""""""""""
11.yau ling kuen
12.yin ji chuen lum

then form 1,2,3, and 7 would have come from the Greater Meihwa Line either from Sun Yuan Chang or Jiang Hua Long. Since there's no trace of White Ape series but still have Fanche, it would seem that this curriculum's is closer to the Taiji Mantis side of things IMHO. Of course there is no doubt about the Tan Tui presences. This in my mind lends support to a possible link by extension between WL and Taiji Tanglang "originally".

Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

PS All my usual caveats apply.