Tai Zu Mantis style

[Sal Canzonieri]

Can anyone supply info about this branch of N Mantis - Tai Zu Tang Lang (Great Ancestor Mantis)?

Who was founder, where is it from? Lineage info, etc.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Does either of these sets look familiar to anyone, especially the second one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNO2zOok9pM

[mantis108]

Non of the core Mantis forms - Bengbu, Luanjie, Bazhou, and Zhaiyao (1-7) that I am aware of plays or runs like headless chicken dances such as those in the clips which are more modern Wushu rendition than anything else IMHO. So I would say there's nothing mantis in those forms. Sorry to disappoint you.

BTW, the clips said Tai Zu Chang Quan. I have seem some Southern Taizu that has that awkard sweep move that repeated so many times. Other than then, I know nothing much about Tai Zu.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

Non of the core Mantis forms - Bengbu, Luanjie, Bazhou, and Zhaiyao (1-7) that I am aware of plays or runs like headless chicken dances such as those in the clips which are more modern Wushu rendition than anything else IMHO. So I would say there's nothing mantis in those forms. Sorry to disappoint you.

BTW, the clips said Tai Zu Chang Quan. I have seem some Southern Taizu that has that awkard sweep move that repeated so many times. Other than then, I know nothing much about Tai Zu.

Warm regards

Mantis108

hehe, I know the quality isn't good, but the second section was with mantis hands mostly (maybe image too small to see well?). I will post another person doing the same sets that you can see better.

Well, regardless of this form, I have heard of Tai Zu Mantis style from Shandong I think, can anyone let me know about this style if they have information?

[Royal Dragon]

Is that a Tai Tzu system with a few mantis forms, or a Mantis system with a few tai tzu forms?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Is that a Tai Tzu system with a few mantis forms, or a Mantis system with a few tai tzu forms?

There is a mantis style where the founder was a TZ Quan person and then learned N Mantis (7 Star) and merged them together, since TZ is the number one root of the 18 masters.

[B.Tunks]

Beyond pre-division Tanglang there is really only Qixing, Meihua (includingTaiji- both branches,TJMH, Mimen), Liuhe, and a few schools which are minor variations of the main three such as Guangban, Babu, Yuanyang. Pretty much anything outside of that is a modern composite.

BT

[Sal Canzonieri]

Beyond pre-division Tanglang there is really only Qixing, Meihua (includingTaiji- both branches,TJMH, Mimen), Liuhe, and a few schools which are minor variations of the main three such as Guangban, Babu, Yuanyang. Pretty much anything outside of that is a modern composite.

BT

I know that, thanks.

I am looking for info on this particular style of mantis.

Anhui province has Shaolin Mantis style, which combined 7 star and local shaolin.

I'm looking for info on where and when and who Tai Tzu Mantis is from, thanks.

[B.Tunks]

I know that, thanks.

I am looking for info on this particular style of mantis.

Anhui province has Shaolin Mantis style, which combined 7 star and local shaolin.

I'm looking for info on where and when and who Tai Tzu Mantis is from, thanks.

I know you knew that. Some people don't though and therefore won't know this style is bogus. Which Anhui Shaolin Tanglang are you referring to? Authentic Tanglang in Anhui and Henan comes via Qingdao as recently as the early 80's.

[B.Tunks]

I know you knew that. Some people don't though and therefore won't know this style is bogus. Which Anhui Shaolin Tanglang are you referring to? Authentic Tanglang in Anhui and Henan comes via Qingdao as recently as the early 80's.

and very little of what is there now resembles what it was then.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I myself am interested in the origne of those forms you linked to more than anything.

Are they a recent thing? or ancient? and more importantly, WHAT are they?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I know you knew that. Some people don't though and therefore won't know this style is bogus. Which Anhui Shaolin Tanglang are you referring to? Authentic Tanglang in Anhui and Henan comes via Qingdao as recently as the early 80's.

Why do you say this style is bogus?
It's not, it's from a legit lineage, I had read an article in a Chinese martial art magazine about it years ago, and I am interested in finding out about it's history.

It is from 1900s, not that modern.

Shantong province also has Di Tang Mantis style, which I am interested in hearing about as well.

There is also Tong Bei Mantis out there as well.

There is Hua Lin Mantis in Shantung too.

I am interested in gathering info on the more obscure styles of Mantis.

Just because you never heard of something doesn't make it bogus, strange that you would say that about something with no info to back that up.

Shaolin Mantis system:
It is found spread in the area of Suxian, Hefei and Fengzhao of Anhui, Nanjing, Xuzhou, and Huaiyin of Jiangsu.
One of the people that developed it was Bo Jian Ming.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Does either of these sets look familiar to anyone, especially the second one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNO2zOok9pM

I am looking into the origin of these two sets.
They have the opening and ending salutes of Shantong Long Fist Mantis, like Xiao Hu Yan, and so on, like Shantong Tai Zu Quan does, of Yang Jing Ming's lineage.


The first set looks remarkably like Xiao Fan Che set of Northern Mantis.
Compare the first set in that link to the Fan Che set from Mantis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFb9Pyole6Y (this one has that same Shantong salute, as also seen in the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan sets in the above link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAJ9HEdonms

The TZ Chang Quan set 1 follows the Mantis Xiao Fan Che set very closely, most of the movements are in the same sequence even.

Set 2 is like this mantis form a lot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GJc8R1DN8s

[B.Tunks]

Something I've never heard of is Shantong mantis.

There is no Hualin Tanglang in Shandong. Guaranteed. Ditang Tanglang is a new creation too (real ditang of TLQ comes in 7 Zhaiyao of TJTL). Maybe go to Shandong and have a first hand look instead of reading articles, the majority of which in Chinese publications and websites are complete garbage. You can find, Beggar, Bagua, Xingyi and about 20 other combinations of Tanglang that have popped up in the last couple of decades (and have retrospectively backdated their origins).

Nothing personal, just a counter view.

BT

[B.Tunks]

Something I've never heard of is Shantong mantis.

There is no Hualin Tanglang in Shandong. Guaranteed. Ditang Tanglang is a new creation too (real ditang of TLQ comes in 7 Zhaiyao of TJTL). Maybe go to Shandong and have a first hand look instead of reading articles, the majority of which in Chinese publications and websites are complete garbage. You can find, Beggar, Bagua, Xingyi and about 20 other combinations of Tanglang that have popped up in the last couple of decades (and have retrospectively backdated their origins).

Nothing personal, just a counter view.

BT

having said that, there is of course nothing wrong with researching these obscure variations and i will be very interested to read outcomes.

[mantis108]

Hi Sal,

I second what Brendan said and I advice to listen to what he have to say especially concerning mantis and Henan Shaolin development.


I am looking into the origin of these two sets.
They have the opening and ending salutes of Shantong Long Fist Mantis, like Xiao Hu Yan, and so on, like Shantong Tai Zu Quan does, of Yang Jing Ming's lineage.

The so-called Long Fist Mantis is actually Meihua Tanglang. The lineage came from Liang Xue Xiang's Son Liang Jing Chuan and eventually was brought to Taiwan by Wang Song Ting. The name Chang Quan Tanglang was coined to discern it from other school due to Taiwan government wanted all of the Kung Fu schools to registered but the Meihua Tanglang has already been registered. Xiao Hu Yan is a popular form. I believe its origin is from Shandong Sun Bin Quan (also categorized as Chang Quan). Sun Bin Quan, I believe is taught in armed escort agencies in the Shandong region. Just like San Huang Pao Chui is popular in Beijing's armed escort companies. Opening and ending salutes often are generic in nature in the armed escort companies. What they care about is the form's effectiveness.


The first set looks remarkably like Xiao Fan Che set of Northern Mantis.
Compare the first set in that link to the Fan Che set from Mantis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFb9Pyole6Y (this one has that same Shantong salute, as also seen in the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan sets in the above link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAJ9HEdonms

The first link is from Qixing Tanglang. The second is from my style. Xiao Fan Che (and other forms) is later dropped from our curriculum. This footage is from a grandstudent of Grandmaster Chiu in Macau. The form is played with the older flavor of GM Chiu that is consistent with the Vietnam period flavor.


The TZ Chang Quan set 1 follows the Mantis Xiao Fan Che set very closely, most of the movements are in the same sequence even.

I am sorry. I failed to see any resemblance with the TZCQ. May be I was looking at a different clip?


Set 2 is like this mantis form a lot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GJc8R1DN8s

My friend, I would not recommend using that form to support your arguement. That particular school is known to me. I am sorry I can't vouche for all it's material as they have mutiple sources of martial arts and their higher ups are known to be quite creative when it come to forms and systems. Nothing wrong with them, I suppose but it's not my cup of tea. So...

Just as Brendan said - don't believe everything you watch or read out there.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, I am just exploring, not making any statements nor any arguments.

What I am doing is trying to figure out what these two sets are of this "Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan".

The TZ video I posted is only the second time i have ever seen these two sets, and they do not look anything like other Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan sets that I am familiar with.

In my opinion, they look very much like something related to N Mantis from Shantung, especially of the "Long Fist Mantis" material, more than they do Shaolin TZ stuff.
The sets have the mantis hands in them (hard to see in the clip) and other movements that I have seen only in mantis forms, not Shaolin TZ Chang Chuan forms.

I haven't been able to find the origin of these TZ sets.

I found it weird that the only set out there that looks like the first one is the Xiao Fan Che set of mantis.

I will post a better version of those sets.

I am curious if any mantis people can recognize anything from these 2 supposed TZ chang quan sets.

I know that there is a Tai Zu Mantis style, it goes back about 5 generations.
I am curious to learn more about the origin of this type of mantis.

[mantis108]

Well, I am just exploring, not making any statements nor any arguments.

What I am doing is trying to figure out what these two sets are of this "Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan".

In that case, my friend, I have nothing to offer. Personally, the whole "Shaolin" thing is FUBAR as far as I am concern. So I won't lose any sleep over any claim of Shaolin lineage of any style if I were you.


The TZ video I posted is only the second time i have ever seen these two sets, and they do not look anything like other Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan sets that I am familiar with.

I hear you.


In my opinion, they look very much like something related to N Mantis from Shantung, especially of the "Long Fist Mantis" material, more than they do Shaolin TZ stuff.

As I have said before Changquan Tanglang is essentially Meihua Tanglang from Shandong but got the name registered in Taiwan.


The sets have the mantis hands in them (hard to see in the clip) and other movements that I have seen only in mantis forms, not Shaolin TZ Chang Chuan forms.

There is a difference between having the mantis shape hand in the form and actually having the mantis signature moves and/or combinations moves, or what I would call the DNA of mantis (ie Hook Grab Pluck, feng bi yuan yang jiao, Beng Dian Bian Yuhuan, etc). Having the mantis shape hand formation don't mean anything other than someone trying to mimic mantis form as far as I am concern.


I haven't been able to find the origin of these TZ sets.

Good luck in your search.


I found it weird that the only set out there that looks like the first one is the Xiao Fan Che set of mantis.

The truth of the matter is Xiao Fan Che's origin is unknown. From the techniques that are found in the form, we can get a guestimate that it's more than likely related to Fanzi not Tai zu (the high frequency of Yi Bu San Chui is a tell tale sign in my mind). If you ask me, it's an excellent entry level form to get an ideal of what Duan Da (short strike) is about. I would go as far as to say that Xiao Fan Che was taught in armed escort companies in Yantai, old capital city of Shandong. Liang Xue Xiang could have learned it when he was working in the trade. This is why his mantis manuscript doesn't recognize it as mantis origin as taught by Wang Lang. Only Bengbu, Luanjie, Bazhou and Mishou were recognized as mantis from Wang Lang according to Liang Xue Xiang.


I will post a better version of those sets.

By all means and thank you.


I am curious if any mantis people can recognize anything from these 2 supposed TZ chang quan sets.

I know that there is a Tai Zu Mantis style, it goes back about 5 generations.
I am curious to learn more about the origin of this type of mantis.

Sorry, I have not heard of Tai Zu Mantis ever. But then what do I know? so....

Good luck, God bless and all...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

In my opinion, they look very much like something related to N Mantis from Shantung, especially of the "Long Fist Mantis" material, more than they do Shaolin TZ stuff.



They do look like Northern styles I have seen in Taiwan.
Especially the second one looking like some versions of four road running strike I have see.

But it seems as if it was a northern long fist style with some mantis moves put on.

Though first clip did have some odd moves, it does look like the type of long fist that I have seen in Taiwan before.

Similar to forms I have learned.

But I do not see much of a relationship to xiao fanche.


kevin
plumflowermantisboxing.com

[Qixing Tanglang]

Sal - you read too many books and come off sounding like you are full of sh1t. If you believe everything read in those wushu magazines and books then you really are completely lost. Your quest for the original root system is really tired too - especially when you base most of it on stupid forms. Real amature.

I remember last time you filled a lot of pages with a lot of sh1t about taizu, and tongbei and mantis. You even pulled some stuff (the only good stuff by the way) from Brendons site，but did not even quote him. Low end.


Nate

[Royal Dragon]

Your quest for the original root system is really tired too

Reply]
What is wrong with wanting to know what the roots are of the styles we see today?

I think Sal has uncovered some really valuable insites to the origins of various styles.

I remember last time you filled a lot of pages with a lot of sh1t about taizu, and tongbei and mantis.

Reply]
Why exactly is his work Sh1t? He has a lot of info, and has put together a lot of data that really explains the evolution of a number of styles.

I have looked at his examination and comparison of various forms, and he *IS* right about the striking similarities. His logic also makes sense.

Have you done any work in this area that contradicts his findings? If so, I would like to examin it.

[Royal Dragon]

especially when you base most of it on stupid forms. Real amature

Reply]
The forms are living documents passed to us form ancient times, any good researcher would have to spend considerable time looking at thier construction.

Again, what have you done in the way of research in this area, and what are your findings? Do they contradict Sal's? If so, how, and why?

Be specific, show us your expertise in these areas, don't just slamm the guy and run away...that is hardly credible.
______________

[Qixing Tanglang]

Sals a cut and paste master. There is nothing insightful about what he writes.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What are the results of your research then?

How did you go about it. What are your conclusions, and how do they differ from Sals?

What is your area of expertise in Chinese martial arts?

What are your sources?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, Nate, because this is JUST an internet forum, a place to discuss things and ask questions and see what people have to say, if they want to participate in a discussion, not give away all your footnotes and source materials, etc., etc., in a public place, this ain't no "Journal of Asian Martial Arts" or whatever.

I don't know what you've said on the forums that is so original or insightful or much of anything other than a mundane comment here or there.

Sure I cut and paste in a forum, most people do, it's the fastest way to learn more about the material that I "cut and pasted" from. Why else would I cut and paste it, to see what people have to say about it.
When people PM me for the source of something I said, I give it to them via PM, as it should be done in a public forum.
Its not like I can start transferring Chinese handwritten material into english and then immediately post it. No, I "play dumb", come across stuff I have seen, and yeah, I cut and paste it so that a discussion can happen. I'm looking for a reaction from people.

But all my articles in various martial arts magazines from the 80s to now have been done with full research, I'm sure you never read them, since you are too cool to read martial arts magazines. Many well known masters respected them enough to have me judge their students at the Han Wei tournaments during the 1990s.

Nobody is ever going to present a full scholarly work with all their source material documented in a public discussion group, that's nonsensical. I'm a professional writer for a living, writing under various different names, I've had plenty of scholarly articles published in various fields from technical writing about wireless computing to historical investigations to interviewing rock bands to writing business consultation advice to political rants to product reviews.

My original research comes from when there was no internet to cut and paste from, people weren't using PCs everyday, and talking in discussion groups. I've got boxes and boxes of material from 8mm tapes, to videos, to taped interviews to manuscripts to whatever from material that I have gathered directly from TCMA people, many are now long dead, even stuff that was willed to me, starting back in the early 80s. People who entrusted me things that they didn't even give their own students, which makes people jealous I guess, but they gave the stuff to me cause they felt their students didn't give a crap about history of their style and why they do what they do and where it might have come from first and how it evolved from something else. I was one of the very first people in the USA during the late 80s and early 90s to translate lots of important information dispelling all the typical legends that were common. MY articles are the ones that have been the MOST cut and pasted from. Things people take for granted now I was writing about in the early 80s.

I have tons of rare stuff like old N Mantis masters on 8mm and video that goes way back that I would think someone like you would like to see. Various N Mantis teachers have looked me up and contacted me by phone and asked to be able to see the material once I transfer it all to DVD.

Everything I have learned from these TCMA people has never failed me in a fight. And I have fought plenty of times. I'm not afraid to fight, my well known great uncle was world champ in boxing in the 1930s, I learned to fight on the streets, I grew up fighting everyday of my life to and from school, everyday, a gauntlet of hell to deal with, in the 1960s and 70s in the heart of Newark NJ, even after being stabbed I clobbered the guy, I've picked up someone and swung his head into a tree, I learned how to live when it was kill or be killed times. I'm about 50 years old now and when I toured with my bands I've beat up people when necessary in various countries.

I practice TCMA for an hour every morning, an hour or two at lunchtime, and a few hours every night, then all day from 9am to 3-4 pm on sundays. I teach classes twice a week and still go go to learn more. I give seminars on my ideas and research, I invite masters to visit me so that I can show them directly what I am talking about, and I travel to see people who can't travel to me. And, I play and tour with a band that plays all over the world, and have a family life. I think I have earned the right to be the way I am here.

[Qixing Tanglang]

I came across harsh in my post. I was venting from a bad day. I admit it and I apologize. But I still think you write a lot of nonesense online, and you just proved it again with that reply. I am sure you are great in person with a lot of experience, insight and skill, but it sure does not come across in your posts. To balance this whole thing out I sitll congradulate you on the effort that you do make, and of course encourage you to keep doing so.

Nate

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, now that that is over, does anyone have any info on the origin of those forms?

Sal, you mentioned 5th generation? If that is so, maybe these forms are a collection of someones Shaolin experiences form 100 or so years ago?

Maybe he learned traditionally, but never got the the fnal step of actually learning the form, so he combines all his techniques into one huge long set of Shaolin and other stuff?

[Sal Canzonieri]

okay, here is Li Cheng Xiang (李承祥) doing Set #2, the one that appears to have the various N Mantis movements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJ7d3pI9-g

[B.Tunks]

okay, here is Li Cheng Xiang (李承祥) doing Set #2, the one that appears to have the various N Mantis movements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJ7d3pI9-g

Sal,

I can see one kick (repeated) and one hooking hand that are very consistent with TLQ. Importantly though, both movements are also common to Cha, Hua, Luohan, Sunbin and many other boxing styles. There are also about half a dozen other techniques that are played identically to some families of Tanglang but they are even more generic, appearing in nearly all northern systems. In fact, there is almost no technique or combination in this taolu that isn't seen in multiple other systems. Having said that, maybe there is a close relationship, but if so, it would certainly not be exclusively with TLQ.

BT

[Qixing Tanglang]

Spot on Brendon. Dont know why Sal missed that.

[Royal Dragon]

Cha, Hua, Luohan, Sunbin and many other boxing styles.

Reply]
How old is Sun Bin? Is it Sung dynasty era right? I seem to remember it is one of the Tai Tzu based shaolin styles.

Louhan, and Cha fist are both styles Zhao Kuang Yin was exposed to. I think Cha Fist was present in pre, and early Sung dynasty military training. Maybe this set originally comes from someone who brought it back to their village after retiring from military service back then. If so, there probably would not have been a form, but a large arsenal of loose techniques. The form would most likely have been created in whatever village the soldier originated from, after he returned home, possibly may generations later.

Or maybe it is a mix of stuff various retired soldiers from different Garrisons brought home from the early Sung's military and is just *Called* Tai Tzu because he was the Emperor at the time?

Another possibility is that this is a more modern choreographed set based in material from the 1700's when Monks went to Shandong?

[Royal Dragon]

One thing that does not make a case for this being an actual Tai Tzu set, it is missing many signature moves of Tai Tzu.

For example, there is no Plow hammer. Although he does do a lot of punches with the lead hand in bow stance, he is holding his rear hand in a more generic chamber position, rather than extend and perform a full plow hammer. Maybe that is an intentional mark to the set? The other performance does the same thing though, so probably not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNO2zOok9pM

There is no General surveys his troops, or Golden Chicken on one leg, which is commonly seen in Tai Tzu sets as well.

Also, no "pounds Mortar", which is seen in some variation in many Tai Tzu sets, or Tai Tzu derived sets (See Chen style).

There is no Phenoix spreads it's winds either., which is also seen in many Tai Tzu, or Tai Tzu derived sets (Again see Chan style).

For comparison, here is the foundational Tai Tzu set. Notice all the common signature moves are in this set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg0AHeYAfWM&mode=related&search=

Now, you may have Tai Tzu sets that do not have them all, but i have yet to see a Tai Tzu set that does not have at least one...till these sets in question.

Also, the opening does not seem to be from the same family as openings common to Tai Tzu sets either.

[mantid1]

Sal

I would have to agree with Mr. Tunks on this. I dont have the experience he has...but I can see Techniques in this last form that I have seen in various other styles.

I have been down the same journey that you have...but dealing with different styles.

I think it he end you may find a little mantis connection with this style. But, it may just be because it just so happens to share common techniques that are used by numerous other northern styles...with no real connection to mantis other than coincidence.

Another possiblility would be that the person who developed the forms knew some mantis forms. He then developed his own form using the moves out of the forms combined with others to make his form. The problem with this is that if he did not study the mantis style in depth learning theory...techniques...etc then all you have are empty moves that may look like mantis.

Knowing all of the forms of a system and understanding a system are two completely different things IMO.

The Chinese systems really like their forms...and I think this empty combination of techniques happen alot.

Traditional Mantis? Well, I have looked into many schools who teach traditional mantis. Most of them teach traditional forms and some drills or two person sets..but not alot of them get as in depth as I would like. So, I have to ask myself is this traditional or just another empty shell that is closer to what I think the ideals of mantis should be?

One of the few things that two different instructors from two different styles can agree on is how the third instructor from another style is screwing things up.

Have fun with your research...you may not find out exactly what you are looking for but I know you will learn alot on your journey.

I should let you know Im not a mantis guy and probably never will be...just sharing my observations.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Spot on Brendon. Dont know why Sal missed that.

DUHHHH! I didn't "miss" it. Man, do you have to be a jerk for no real reason?

I just wanted other people's opinions about this set.

I said the same thing in PM to RD months ago. As he can attest.

I just want to hear what someone else had to say.

It's a strange set, so generic, agreed.
I wondered what the background on the set is, especially since the teacher says he is 5th generation, TZ Quan goes way back further than that.
I am trying to find out if the 1st generation founder pieced it together from other styles (mostly Shandong styles).
Because they are marketing the sets as being from ancient TZ Chang Quan and it looks like it is not.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Cha, Hua, Luohan, Sunbin and many other boxing styles.

Reply]
How old is Sun Bin? Is it Sung dynasty era right? I seem to remember it is one of the Tai Tzu based shaolin styles.

Louhan, and Cha fist are both styles Zhao Kuang Yin was exposed to. I think Cha Fist was present in pre, and early Sung dynasty military training. Maybe this set originally comes from someone who brought it back to their village after retiring from military service back then. If so, there probably would not have been a form, but a large arsenal of loose techniques. The form would most likely have been created in whatever village the soldier originated from, after he returned home, possibly may generations later.

Or maybe it is a mix of stuff various retired soldiers from different Garrisons brought home from the early Sung's military and is just *Called* Tai Tzu because he was the Emperor at the time?

Another possibility is that this is a more modern choreographed set based in material from the 1700's when Monks went to Shandong?

Sun Bin is a relatively modern style, named after Sun Bin in honor, developed by a bodyguard from Shandong. It is not TZ based, it is Tong Bei based.

There is no evidence that Zhao was exposed to Cha Quan, he never went to Shandong were Cha was practiced, and I don't think there were that many Moslems in the military during Zhao's time when he was a soldier.
Most of Cha Quan is typical long fist found in the Shandong area.
Anyways it was not called Cha Quan during his time period, it was called Jia Zhi (Frame) Boxing, and it was much different then.
If he came across any Moslem martial artists practicing Jia Zhi, they would have to be from Western China, which Jia Zhi was practiced.
It seems very doubtful.

The hooked hand thing that is done mostly in Cha Quan which people point to show that there must have been a connection to TZ Quan is also commonly done the same way in Shaolin Rou Quan 108 set, Shanxi sets, Sichuan sets,and other styles from the regions nearby each other in that area, where Zhao did go to when before he was a soldier and was wondering about picking up various martial arts techniques.

As I said a million times, soldiers who retired during the early Song dynasty mostly used what all soldiers learned Sword techniques transposed to the empty hand, which is in essence just Tong Bei. There are military manuals that exist from the Song period, mostly they talk about the soldiers weapons training and so on.
Empty hands was not emphasized.

Luohan was fairly common in the Henan region, and was pretty primitive back then.

What these video sets actually are will depend on what the 1st generation founder was doing.

I was interested in seeing if anyone recognized these sets or at least some sequences of their movements from something Mantis or something else.
Just asking, no theories up my sleeve or research into "the one true original style".

JUST HAD A D AMN QUESTION AND WANTED SOME EDUCATED PEOPLE'S OPINION< but that seems to cause some people to get all upset for some weird reason.
(not meaning you, RD, of course, but you know who)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I said the same thing in PM to RD months ago. As he can attest.

Reply]
Yes I'll testify to that, and he also pointed out the missing signature moves I mentioned above (although some are my own additions to list list of of missing moves).

My thought is these forms are a survey of common military techniques from the early, and pre Sung dynasty, all strung together in one long form, and thus named Tai Tzu because of the period they come from, and not any actual tie to Zhao Kuang Yin.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

I can see one kick (repeated) and one hooking hand that are very consistent with TLQ. Importantly though, both movements are also common to Cha, Hua, Luohan, Sunbin and many other boxing styles. There are also about half a dozen other techniques that are played identically to some families of Tanglang but they are even more generic, appearing in nearly all northern systems. In fact, there is almost no technique or combination in this taolu that isn't seen in multiple other systems. Having said that, maybe there is a close relationship, but if so, it would certainly not be exclusively with TLQ.

BT

Thanks, was of the same opinion, just wanted someone else's opinion, just in case someone recognized the movements from something set they knew.
It is a very generic set, so whoever the 1st generation founder was 100 years ago or so, he developed it from basic long fist.

What is not cool is that it is being marketed as "Shaolin" Tai Tzu Chang Quan, and it might only remotely be so, just because it is Long Fist, which someone then says is automatically Tai ZU Chang Quan, taaa da!
Did the founder 100 years ago come from a Shaolin lineage? Who knows.
Around 1735-1765 a lot of former Shaolin monks left and moved to Shandong area, where they taught various Shaolin material. The Fan family bodyguard company, open since the 1700s were using the Hong Quan that they learned from these Monks.
The great Wang Zu Ping also learned Shaolin Long Fist from students of these ex-monks.
Some of these monks taught Jingang Quan, some Hong Quan, some Luohan Quan, some Black Tiger, and other stuff that influenced various long fist schools from Shandong, which already had their Cha Quan, Hua Quan, N Mantis, and other stuff that Shandong was already famous for.
These, especially Cha Quan and Hua Quan, probably mixed with the imported Shaolin material over time. I think that is what this "Shaolin TZ Chang Quan" stuff is most likely.

The Green Dragon school (yucch!) has a set of 3 "TZ Long Fist" that they sell, and it is clearly Southern CLF stuff and he even admits that it was Southern Five Animals sets, but they marketed it as TZ Chang Quan, just because it was Long Fist material. Totally deceptive way of selling it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Could Tai Tzu hongquan be considered any Shandong longfist mixed Tai Tzu from Shaolin?

You're better off going back to the Hong Quan thread in the Shaolin area, for that question.

Since no Mantis people recognize anything in these 2 sets, then this thread is pretty much over with.

Thanks, BT for giving your opinion, much appreciated.

[B.Tunks]

Sal,

No worries. Out of interest, I think there was slightly more in common with TLQ in the first clip (but still nothing exclusive).

BT

[Sal Canzonieri]

I found some information on the 'net pertaining to Tai Tzu and Northern Mantis:

Taiji Praying Mantis Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai (CE 1900 - 1991).

Grandmaster Chiu was born in Yi County, Shandong province, China. The Abbot of a Buddhist Temple in the near mountain took him in as a young disciple when he was about 8 years old. There were 2 monks, who taught him Taizu Men (Grand Emperor division), which is a famous northern style martial art. He practiced random techniques with a rudimentary wooden dummy during his training. These techniques were not strung together in a set routine. This period of training that lasted about 10 years left a profound impression on Grandmaster Chiu. After the monk teachers passed away, he returned to his hometown and then move to Yantai County where he furthered his martial arts training with 2 Taiji Praying Mantis masters. Grandmaster Chiu became proficient in both Taizu Men and Taiji Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

In early 1940s, he relocated to Macao, where he joined a brotherhood with 12 other people in a special ceremony. One of his 12 sworn brothers was Sifu Chu Chun Man, who was a Wing Chun (Forever Spring) style master. It is believed that Abbot Gi Chin used to teach a fluid, agile and short ranged style called the Huaquan (flower fist) at the Forever Spring Hall in the Fujian Shaolin temple; hence, the name Wing Chun to commemorate the teaching. Sifu Chu was teaching this style at his Kwoon (training hall), which also had a Wooden Dummy. Having the opportunity to exchange martial knowledge with Sifu Chu, Grandmaster Chiu combined the Taizu Men and Taiji Praying Mantis Techniques to create the TJPM Wooden Dummy form that was inspired by his sworn brother’s Kung Fu. The form consists of 108 moves, which signifies cosmic balance in Chinese Buddhism as well as the history connection to the Shaolin tradition. Grandmaster Chiu named the form “Shaolin Buddhist Wooden Dummy form” to commemorate his first masters, who were Buddhist monks. Through the Wing Chun inspiration, TJPM stylists now enjoy this unique legacy of a Grandmaster.

. . .

Since Taizu Men techniques are major component of the form. Individual moves can be extracted from the form and practice with the short strikes method of Taizu Men otherwise known as Taizu Duanda.

[mantis108]

Hi Sal,

It looks like you have found my article written for the lunach of Wooden Dummy book in the west. It's not meant to be the definitive work on this interesting aspect of CCK TCPM. New information and perspective have emerged since then. So I am in the process of rewriting that pieces and possibly length it into a book.

Regarding Taizu Duanda, we understand that there are Taizu Changquan in the Shangdong area. Taizu Changquan does have form(s). In one of my conversations with GM Chiu, he said that he trained Sau Fa/Shou Fa that is from the Taizu Men Kung Fu when he was in the temple. BTW, we have confirmed that there is indeed the said temple on the said mountain in exsitent. We have not confirmed whether there was a tangible martial tradition or activity at the temple at this point. Further investigation is needed. As much of GM Chiu's martial background and career have been confirmed through various sources, we are confident that he is truthful in all of his studies. So personally, we have no reason to doubt that he practiced Taizu Men Kung Fu as he said it. Now, we can not confirm whether this Taizu Men Kung Fu has anything to do with Taizu Changquan other than they shared the name of the style. Given that it is passed down on to our generation as named Taizu Duanda, which indicate that it might very well be different from Changquan, I would just leave it as that until new evidence suggests otherwise.

As far as Taizu Duanda in CCK TCPM goes, there is no physical relationship between it and Mantis before GM Chiu took up both arts. It can not be used to support Taizu Men Kung Fu as one of Mantis' founding styles from that end IMHO.

Hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

thanks 108!
Maybe that is the style I was thinking of that I had read about that was mixing tai zu and mantis.

Anyways, I want to present this information, I just spend the last few hours translating this very carefully.

This is the Shaolin version of the 18 masters names and skills. Two of the surviving books ("Records of Shao Lin Monastery" and "Records about Shao Lin Boxing") that escaped the burning of Shaolin in 1928, mentioned a list of names of 18 skills and who they came from. They say that in the year 961, head martial art monk Fu Ju (Fu is a surname that means: blessing and Ju means to reside, most likely his honorary name). Under the auspices of Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin, Fu Ju called a meeting of masters 3 times for a span of 3 years each to develop standardized sets for martial monks to pass, because false monks were claiming that they were from Shaolin, so they wanted to devise a way to that someone would have to prove that they graduated from Shaolin (you could get good money as a body guard doing so). So, they started with Zhao's Long Fist material and built a series of standardized sets that they assembled into a book.

Fine you Mantis people all know that by now, thanks to Ilya Profatilov and others.

It seems to me that the person in the 1790s that hand copied these Shaolin manuals and wrote the "Luohan exercising merit short strike illustrated manuscript" ( 罗汉行功短打; Luóhàn Xínggōng Duǎn Dǎ), made mistakes in coping the characters and also people have mistranslated the characters from his version.

Okay, well here is the Shaolin version of the list, you can see that the names are sometimes different, in a different order (Wang Lang is not last) and the skills are explained differently as well or more clearer (attached also is the Chinese characters from text):

1. Tai Zu’s chang quan qi shou (long fist rising hands)

2. Han Tong’s tong bi wei you (through arm serves excellently)

3. Zheng En’s chan feng you miao (binding seal especially clever)

4. Wen Tian’s duan quan geng ji (short fist more unusual)

5. Ma Jie‘s duan da zui jia (close strikes best [most fine])

6. Kong Heng‘s hou quan qie sheng (monkey fist also flourishes)

7. Huang Hu's kao shen nan jin (leaning body difficult to approach)

8. Jin Sheng's mian zhang ji fei (face palm swiftly flys)

9. Jin Xiang's ke-zi tong quan (knocking through fist)

10. Liu Xing's gou lou cai shou (hook pulling/embracing picking hand)

11. Tan Fang's gun lie guan er (rolling thunder piercing ears)

12. Yan Qing's nian na yue bu (sticky hold leaps not)

13. Lin Chong’s yuan yang jiao – ‘mandarin duck’ kicks

14. Meng Huo's qi shi lian zhang (seven forces/postures linking palms)

15. Cui Lian's wo guo pao chui (nest confining cannon hammers)

16. Yang Gun's kun shou lu zhi ru (tying hand capture vertically enters)

17. Wang Lang’s tang lang ke di (praying mantis subdues enemy)

18. Gao Huai De's shuai liu ying beng (throwing grab hard collapse)


------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can compare that list to that which was in Ilya's site:

1. In the beginning there was "Long-range Boxing" (Chang Quan) style of emperor Tai Zu.
2. "Through the Back" (Tongbei) boxing of Master Han Tong's considered parental.
3. Hand technique "Rap Around and Seal" (Chan Feng) of Master Zhang En is especially profound.
4. "Close-range Strikes" (Duanda) boxing of Master Ma Ji is the most remarkable.
5. It is impossible to come close to Master Huang You who knows the "Close Range Hand Techniques" (Kao Shou).
6. The technique "Blocking Hands and Following Trough Fist" (Keshou Tongquan) of Master Jin Xiang;.
7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing.
8.The "Methods of Sticking, Grabbing, and Falling" (Zhanna Diefa) of Master Yan Qing.
9. The "Short Boxing"(Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary.
10. The style "Monkey Boxing" (Hou Quan) of Master Sun Heng is also flourishing.
11.The "Cotton Fist"(Mien Quan) techniques of Master Mien Shen is lightning fast.
12. The "Throwing-Grabbing and Hard Crashing" (Shuailue Yingbeng) techniques by Master Huai De.
13.The technique of "Ducking, Leaking and Passing through the Ears" (Gun lou guan er) of Master Tan Fang.
14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick " (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong.
15.The "Seven Postures of Continuous Fist Strikes" (Qishi Lianquan) techniques by Master Meng Su.
16. "Hand Binding and Grabbing" (Kunlu Zhenru) techniques of Master Yang Gun attack instantly.
17. The techniques of "Explosive Strikes into the Hollow Parts of the Body" (Woli Paochui) by Master Cui Lian.
18. “Praying Mantis (Tanglang) boxing of Master Wang Lang absorbed and equalized all previous techniques.

And compare to the list often seen in the HK schools:

Compare to Mantis style poem:

1. the long fist technique of Tai-Cho
2. Followed by the Tung Pi style of Han Tung
3. Still better with the twisting locking techniques of Tzen Un
4. The short fist technique of Un Yian is remarkable
5. The Short range striking technique of Ma Chi is extraordinare
6. The monkey style of Sun Tan is also popular
7. The body leaning techniques of Wang Tien is hard to get near
8. The swift flying face palm techniques of Mian She
9. The Knocking hands technique of Chin Siang can pass through fist
10. The rigid collapsing throwing strokes of Wai Tek
11. The Hook, Embrace, Plucking technique of Liu Sing
12. The rolling sneaking technique of Tain Fang pierce the ear
13. The Grabbing throwing techniques of Ian Ching
14. The Mandarin Duck Kick of Lin Chung is great
15. The seven continuous fist techniques of Meng Sen
16. The belly cutting punch technique of Chun Lian
17. The pole plucking technique of Yang Kun pierce straight in
18. The Praying Mantis technique of Wang Lang covers all

[Royal Dragon]

Question, could Tai Tzu Chang Chuan be considered everything these 18 Masters developed at Shaolin during thier time there?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Question, could Tai Tzu Chang Chuan be considered everything these 18 Masters developed at Shaolin during thier time there?

No, because they made subdivisions that were groupings of sets and they named each one differently.

TZ was the base that they started from, by virtue of the fact that there was already a style named this, and by adding in lots of outside elements it becomes a different style, that what logically a style is.

But, it is 'possible' that some lineages doing these sets just called them Tai Zu Chang Quan, to mean Ancestoral Long Fist in general.

That's why there are so many different styles today called Tai Zu Quan, half the time they are meaning only that it is the Ancestoral sets from their founder. Not that they trace their sets back to Zhao Kuang Yin himself.

It's a mixed up mess once you get outside of the Shaolin original sets, so much evolution and de-evolution happened from 961 AD to now.

[Royal Dragon]

Agreed. At least Shaolin has documentation.

As for the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, I was referring to the system all 18 Masters developed as Tai Tzu meaning Ancestral, not related to Zhao Kunag Yin.

The story says "Initiated by Zhao Kuang Yin", so I was thinking that Tai Tzu may be relating to both the entire 18 masters system (that Zhao Kuang Yin got started), and also Zhao Kuang Yin's personal material specifically.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Do Mantis people care about this topic much? Just asking.

There are about 4 sources from Shaolin records that show that Wang Lang was from Song dynasty era, early 960s AD.

[B.Tunks]

Sal,

It is interesting. However personally I don't agree with a lot of it. It isn't certain that Wang Lang even existed and if he did, when, where or who he was. No one so far has been able to verify this key piece of your puzzle. Tanglang, although these days quite commonly labelled as having Song origins, almost definitely came at the very latest Ming/early Qing. There may have been something quite independant called Tanglang earlier, but there could be very little if any connection to what we have now that clearly (and traceably) grew out of the Qing. Almost every piece of the earliest written body of Tanglang theory is ripped of from, or heavily influenced by Ming sources (as you know). Virtually the only link to the Song are these Shaolin accounts, which are also unverifiable date-wise, and almost certainly copied several times over by unknown authors. Not to mention the use of fictitional or historically misplaced characters in the ancestors story. It's a great piece of folklore though.

BT

[Three Harmonies]

It has been my experience and understanding that Mr. Tunks is correct. I researched the origin of Mantis quite a bit, until I finally got frustrated spinning my wheels. One must be careful with such topics as we risk inventing, or adding to history when their are key aspects missing. Quite frankly I do not see the importance of any of it anyways. No one will ever have a solid "answer" (kind of like religion), so is there really a point in arguing and debating? Martial histroy is quite interesting, but one should not invest too much into it.
Just my 2 cents,
Jake :cool:

[Royal Dragon]

I don't agree, I think it is a good thing to know what really happened if trust worthy records allow for it.

I'd rather find out the truth, even if my dream word is shattered by it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

It is interesting. However personally I don't agree with a lot of it. It isn't certain that Wang Lang even existed and if he did, when, where or who he was. No one so far has been able to verify this key piece of your puzzle. Tanglang, although these days quite commonly labelled as having Song origins, almost definitely came at the very latest Ming/early Qing. There may have been something quite independant called Tanglang earlier, but there could be very little if any connection to what we have now that clearly (and traceably) grew out of the Qing. Almost every piece of the earliest written body of Tanglang theory is ripped of from, or heavily influenced by Ming sources (as you know). Virtually the only link to the Song are these Shaolin accounts, which are also unverifiable date-wise, and almost certainly copied several times over by unknown authors. Not to mention the use of fictitional or historically misplaced characters in the ancestors story. It's a great piece of folklore though.

BT

Well I'm not taking a side in any direction, just looking at what comes up, hopefully one day there will be something more solid to go by.

I'm not sure if there are historically misplaced people in this particular list of masters. There is another Shaolin tradition that hold that there were 13 masters, and if you subtract the honorary people, such as the 3 people from the Water Margin: Yan Qing, Ling Chong, and his nephew (though they are all from Song Dynasty, because they all are linked via being students of legendary Zhou Tong),
and Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin (he was being emperor and wasn't there, though his long fist was the start point) and Han Tong (he was already dead by then, having died defending the previous emperor), - both of whom are indeed from the Song, that then leaves the 13 masters.

It could be that this Song era version of Tang Lang is of course much different than the Ming dynasty Mantis that later evolved. Perhaps it served as inspiration to the Ming dynasty Mantis developers?

It is plausible that someone anti-Qing dynasty took up old Wang Lang's identity and used it to hide from.

Sets from Shaolin that are supposed to be from the early Song dynasty do use mantis hands movements and postures that are also seen in some Shandong mantis sets. There must be a reason that as far as Shaolin is concerned Tang Lang and Song dynasty always get connected together.

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, the earliest references to Shaolin from the Mantis lineages come from people like Wang Yongchun and Fan Xudong?

People think that Fan wrote the Mantis version of the Shaolin Authentic?

Was it Lou Guangyu that went to Shaolin and spend some time there researching Tang Lang or was it someone else? I remember reading (english languge) that a famed Mantis master spent time at Shaolin (pre-1920s) researching early mantis and the Luohan Gong.
Is this article available?

[mantis108]

I agreed with Brendan.

I believe the Luohan Xinggong Duanda Tupu is a literary frabrication using Ming dynasty military manuscripts, Ming period martial arts novels, Shandong hero folk lores, etc. As such, it can not be used to authenticate anything.

some thoughts that I shared before on the Mantis Quarterly forum:

Not necessarily. I think the Shaolin is just a namesake rather than anything substantial in it. Here's some reasons:

1) Shaolin temple became really famous because of a surge in Buddhism during Yuan dynasty. The Emperors edicted to build 7 Shaolin temple through China. Possibly, there are 8 locations altogether including the Henan Songshan Shaolin.

2) One list of 7 Shaolin: Songshan (Henan), Helin (Karakorum, Mongolia), Ji Xian (Hebei), Xi'an (Shan Xi?), Tai Yuan (Shanxi), Luoyang (Henan), Quanzhou (Fujian).

Another list replaced Tai Yuan with Heng zhou, which is either related to or possibly origin of Southern Shaolin Temple. However, it is also believe that Heng zhou didn't quite finish building. So essentially it didn't exist.

3) Fuyu (1201-1275 CE) supervised the building of Helin Shaolin, which is also known as Northern Shaolin. This is possibly the source in which Sheng Xiao Dao Ren imagined it as the Fuju's Shaolin.

4) Sheng Xiao Dao Ren, is likely to be a government run military academy "cadets" during Qing dynasty. Graduates can attend exams to become commissioned officiers. If they fail to get a commission in the military as they aged, they would be reassigned to teaching jobs in different locations. Sheng Xiao did mentioned that he had students in Sheng Jing (modern day Shenyang), which is the capital of the Manchurian territory at the time. It is possible that he had a library that included the Luohan Xinggong Duanda Tupu, which he developed or edited into another copy out memeroy since one of his student took the copy that he owned. This would explain why there are so many versions of the same book in existence. BTW, the Dao Ren designation during that period is simply someone who is learned and respected not necessarily someone who is a Daoist.

5) Luohan Xinggong Duanda is possibly a version of Xingquan which was used along with Fanziquan and a few other styles in the south during Ming dynasty's time as military training styles. Xingquan and Fanziquan are both classified as Duanda pugilistic styles from the south. The Short strikes 9981 is not meant to be independent form in use. It's meant to be use with the Fanche Lulu Chui6636 IMHO. This is symbolic represention of Yijing's (classic of change) Yao (9 for the Yang Yao, 6 for the Yin Yao). The ancient Kingdom of Qi (Shandong) is considered the inherited home of Yijing. The LHXGDD has a lot of interpretation from the Yijing. BTW, I have found the term "Fanche" (exact charactors) reference in a commentary written by a Qing dynasty scholar arround the same period as Sheng Xiao Dao Ren about an Hexagram that has "Fanche" attribute.

6)The beginning portion of the Lanjie (Luanjie) can be divided into Taiji Pi (vertical split), Hengji Pi (horizontal split), and Wuda Lianhuan Pi (five continuous strikes). This also known as the Meihwa (plum blossom). Basic it's a series of hooks and splits working together.

7) Well, Wang Lang could be the famous Gui Gu Zi (spring-autuum to warring states period), whose name is Wang Ch'an, also known as Wang Xu. Shandong is believed to be Gui Gu Zi's base of operation. Gui Gu Zi is said to be the teacher of Sun Bin, who has a style of Long Fist (Sun Bin Quan) named after him. This style is also popular in Shandong. The white apes series is related to the legend of Sun Bin. BTW, Xiao Hu Yan is said to have came from Sun Bin Quan as well. It would seem that Sun Bin Quan is taught among the Armed Escort trade in the Shandong area especially popular in the Yantai area. Liang Xuexiang and his son, Liang Jingchuan also worked in the Armed Escort trade. This is possibly where the White ape series, Xiao Hu Yan, and Da Xiao Fanche came from in the Greater Meihwa Line IMHO. So again, there might not be any relationship with the Henan Shaolin.

Mantis108

[Qixing Tanglang]

Sal,

I lot of us think it is interesting, and have been there done that type thing. If you like reading about history that is fine, but if you like training a fighting system, then you eventually get to a point diminishing returns, and realize time is better well spent training.

I do not have to know about history to know that there is a huge amount of crossover. Particularly looking at the systems out Shandong, Hebei and Henan. A lot of obvious cross over and similarities. Of course differences too but not that much in my opinion.

I am repeating myself here, but if you really want to compare systems, then forget about sets/forms and history - look to the physical base techniques contained in the Si Ji Fa. But the only way to really know this is to train it. Even then so trying to write about it is limiting.

It sounds to me from what you write that you spend too much time thinking about sets / forms. Interesting, but really a waste of time.

Regards,
Nate

[Sal Canzonieri]

I practice foundamentals, nei gong, and sets each day, from 4 to 6 hours.
Research CMA history is for fun.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I agreed with Brendan.

I believe the Luohan Xinggong Duanda Tupu is a literary frabrication using Ming dynasty military manuscripts, Ming period martial arts novels, Shandong hero folk lores, etc. As such, it can not be used to authenticate anything.

some thoughts that I shared before on the Mantis Quarterly forum:


Mantis108

Hi;

thanks for responding.

I looked over some of your posts in the Mantis Quarterly. I have some comments.

In here you said: http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1830&postcount=14

If you permit me to explain some deeper things about Shaolin, maybe it will have bearing on your thoughts on Duan Da and Chang Quan and Mantis style.

In the original Shaolin methods, not the modern crapola wushu junk, Tai Zu Chang Quan means 'long boxing' as in time wise, meaning movements all connected together to make a 'long' flowing set. As opposed to short drills. And, in fact, Shaolin Chang Quan of tai zu variety is considered a Duan Da, a 'short striking' methods, though it is part of Long Boxing school.
Tong Bi of Han Tong's version was from military drills that come from Sword fighting methods. They also can be 'duan da' short strikes.

Most of the people on the 18 masters list are Ba Fan Men stylists, which again is duan da methods, short strikes. And Ba Fan Men (consisting of Ba Fan Shan and Ba Fan Shou) is a type of Luohan Duan da, as opposed to the a Luohan Chang Da that Shaolin normally shows people. Ba Fan Men is called fanzi Quan nowadays.
It is mentioned in General Qi's book along with and a few styles that are also the styles of the 18 masters (Wen Jia Quan, and others).

In Henan Shaolin, Luohan Duan Da = Fanzi Quan = tong bi (which means 'through the arms', not the 'through the back' character that modern bai yuan tong bei uses). As such, Henan Shaolin Luohan Duan Da is related to Han Tong's Tong Bi, not to Hong Dong city's Chang Quan coiling tong bei (which is a *******ized Tai Zu/Chen Tai Ji combination - Hong Dong Tong Bei comes from a member of the Chen clan that returned to their ancestral city and his Chen TJQ was given another name to hide its source).

Most all Shaolin material can be traced back to their Rou Quan sets and their nei gong sets of Luohan 13 Gong, Chan Yuan Ba Gong, and Lie Hu (6 harmony) Gong.
These are their most ancient material and they are all clearly derived from Tong Bi sword fighting techniques, which come from Taoist sources originally, such as the Qianzai Temple, which had been practicing Wu Ji and Tong Bei 13 Gong for many centuries.

[Redfish]

Sal, you say:

"Most all Shaolin material can be traced back to their Rou Quan sets and their nei gong sets of Luohan 13 Gong, Chan Yuan Ba Gong, and Lie Hu (6 harmony) Gong.
These are their most ancient material and they are all clearly derived from Tong Bi sword fighting techniques, which come from Taoist sources originally, such as the Qianzai Temple, which had been practicing Wu Ji and Tong Bei 13 Gong for many centuries. "

You've seen pre-900ad Tong Bi Taoist swordfighting and found it to look similar to c.900-1200 ad Shaolin 'Liu He Gong'?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, you say:

"Most all Shaolin material can be traced back to their Rou Quan sets and their nei gong sets of Luohan 13 Gong, Chan Yuan Ba Gong, and Lie Hu (6 harmony) Gong.
These are their most ancient material and they are all clearly derived from Tong Bi sword fighting techniques, which come from Taoist sources originally, such as the Qianzai Temple, which had been practicing Wu Ji and Tong Bei 13 Gong for many centuries. "

You've seen pre-900ad Tong Bi Taoist swordfighting and found it to look similar to c.900-1200 ad Shaolin 'Liu He Gong'?

ha, I wish. I guess it looks like that, but what I meant was Shaolin says that the material comes from Tong Bi originally, since the martial monks were taught, during the tang and song era by ex-military men.

Also, in having learned tong bei, tong bei sword, Wudang sword, etc., and also these Shaoin sets, I can see for myself that I am doing the exact same movements in the Shaolin nei gong sets as I am doing in these "taoist" sword and empty hand arts. they have the same breathing patterns, same body mechanics, same fundamentals concerning the moving of energy from the ground, up the legs, around the waist, up the spine and out the arms to the hands, they have the same Swing the waist, sink the elbows, pierce (point) with the fingers movements, etc.
There is nothing in these Shaolin sets that I also didn't learn in the fundamentals and various sets of tong bei (white ape, 5 elements, etc) and sword, especially double sword and double knives.

It would give one the impression that these Shaolin sets, which Shaolin considers the oldest and most scared sets, are related to tong bei / sword.

[Redfish]

I gave up on all that.

Modern Shaolin is full of stuff like Steles with simplified characters and monks who claim to have been there for ever despite the temple having been abandoned in the Warlords period after 1912 and being deserted right up until 1982 after the Jet Li movie's success prompted the government to redevelop it.

All the other sources are mainly folkore as well.

After reading the stories and the pre-WW2 histories I get the idea that when Fan Xudong made his trip out to the Henan temple it was already a kind of 'trip' to a historical site and not an active martial arts centre.

That's my own speculation of course. All makes for nice conversation over food after training.

RF

[Sal Canzonieri]

I gave up on all that.

Modern Shaolin is full of stuff like Steles with simplified characters and monks who claim to have been there for ever despite the temple having been abandoned in the Warlords period after 1912 and being deserted right up until 1982 after the Jet Li movie's success prompted the government to redevelop it.

All the other sources are mainly folkore as well.

After reading the stories and the pre-WW2 histories I get the idea that when Fan Xudong made his trip out to the Henan temple it was already a kind of 'trip' to a historical site and not an active martial arts centre.

That's my own speculation of course. All makes for nice conversation over food after training.

RF

Agreed.

Shaolin ceased to exist as a viable center around the 1700s.

When people say "shaolin" that covers the whole Henan region surrounding the temple area where people who left Shaolin over the centuries had settled down and taught what they knew, these lay lineages are the only place that preserved what older Shaolin material was like, along with any written material that they copied or took from the place as well.
Modern shaolin post 1920s is reconstructed stuff and once it became wushufied it became fake as well.

[mantis108]

Hi;

thanks for responding.

I looked over some of your posts in the Mantis Quarterly. I have some comments.

In here you said: http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1830&postcount=14

If you permit me to explain some deeper things about Shaolin, maybe it will have bearing on your thoughts on Duan Da and Chang Quan and Mantis style.

In the original Shaolin methods, not the modern crapola wushu junk, Tai Zu Chang Quan means 'long boxing' as in time wise, meaning movements all connected together to make a 'long' flowing set. As opposed to short drills. And, in fact, Shaolin Chang Quan of tai zu variety is considered a Duan Da, a 'short striking' methods, though it is part of Long Boxing school.
Tong Bi of Han Tong's version was from military drills that come from Sword fighting methods. They also can be 'duan da' short strikes.

Most of the people on the 18 masters list are Ba Fan Men stylists, which again is duan da methods, short strikes. And Ba Fan Men (consisting of Ba Fan Shan and Ba Fan Shou) is a type of Luohan Duan da, as opposed to the a Luohan Chang Da that Shaolin normally shows people. Ba Fan Men is called fanzi Quan nowadays.
It is mentioned in General Qi's book along with and a few styles that are also the styles of the 18 masters (Wen Jia Quan, and others).

In Henan Shaolin, Luohan Duan Da = Fanzi Quan = tong bi (which means 'through the arms', not the 'through the back' character that modern bai yuan tong bei uses). As such, Henan Shaolin Luohan Duan Da is related to Han Tong's Tong Bi, not to Hong Dong city's Chang Quan coiling tong bei (which is a *******ized Tai Zu/Chen Tai Ji combination - Hong Dong Tong Bei comes from a member of the Chen clan that returned to their ancestral city and his Chen TJQ was given another name to hide its source).

Most all Shaolin material can be traced back to their Rou Quan sets and their nei gong sets of Luohan 13 Gong, Chan Yuan Ba Gong, and Lie Hu (6 harmony) Gong.
These are their most ancient material and they are all clearly derived from Tong Bi sword fighting techniques, which come from Taoist sources originally, such as the Qianzai Temple, which had been practicing Wu Ji and Tong Bei 13 Gong for many centuries.

No Offense, Henan Shaolin these days will make claims to anything that people suggest. It's all about tourism and money. Personally, I won't take any of their claims seriously.

Frankly, the Rou Quan and all those so called "gong" are highly of suspect because of dubious theory and methodology. Anybody can make up a long and slow moving form and call it whatever name. So going to claim Shaolin is oldest because it has a "Rou Quan form" that is reminiscent of Yang Style Taiji gone terribly bad isn't going get anyone anywhere.

As for Qianzai Si, well it's not a Daoist temple per se. It's Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism all in one as far as I am aware. Technically, it's a cult hang out space. In Chinese history where there is a cult, there is going to be militia as far as I am concern. It won't be surprising to find martial arts in militia. You can almost be sure that there is possibly more than one kind of martial arts being taught there. To claim there is a unified curriculum in a particular cult militia is not very prudent IMHO. We could suggest there is possibly a more dominant practice of sort but to say it is a well defined training program of any kind simply is wishful thinking.

We have creationism myths in a lot of the martial arts in order to explain the dubious origins of them. Guest what? One of the most popular and enduring of these myths is the one about the White Ape, which is what Tongbiquan is nominated after. The reason is because the myth is about loyalty, filial piety, humanity, and justice. All the virtues and values of what martial artists supposed to represent and uphold. But if you look at modern day Henan Shaolin, non of these actually applies, so there is no real roots of Tongbi in the Henan Shaolin pysche any more than a fragment of imagination period.

I am sorry to be blunt but I am just calling the shot as I see it.

Warm regards

Mantis108