View Full Version : head up
IRONMONK
10-11-2007, 03:58 AM
In WT you have to keep your head up but in other arts like boxing etc you tuck your chin in.
Just curious if you guys keep your head up or not and the justification for it?
Head back, chin tucked, invisible string pulling up through the crown. Justification? Prolly the same as boxing, protect the chin.
sanjuro_ronin
10-11-2007, 04:51 AM
Head back, chin tucked, invisible string pulling up through the crown. Justification? Prolly the same as boxing, protect the chin.
How do you keep your head BACK and your chin TUCKED ?
I dunno how to explain it easily. By back I don't mean look up at the roof, I mean pull the neck backwards horizontally. To do it I pull my head backwards horizontally while at the same time kind of pulling my chin in as though I was trying to touch my Adam's apple with it. So chin in, but back of neck would be as vertical as possible I guess, not neck tilted forward. Bah, hard to explain, easy to show.
sanjuro_ronin
10-11-2007, 05:06 AM
I dunno how to explain it easily. By back I don't mean look up at the roof, I mean pull the neck backwards horizontally. To do it I pull my head backwards horizontally while at the same time kind of pulling my chin in as though I was trying to touch my Adam's apple with it. So chin in, but back of neck would be as vertical as possible I guess, not neck tilted forward. Bah, hard to explain, easy to show.
I think you mean try to keep your head aligned with your back, no overly tilted forward or overly tiled back, yes?
I think you mean try to keep your head aligned with your back, no overly tilted forward or overly tiled back, yes?Sort of. How to explain? If I'm standing looking straight in front then I look down at the ground about 10m in front by rotating or tilting my head. Then I draw my chin in by pulling the back of my skull horizontally backwards and pulling my chin at the same time (which causes slightly more rotation if I continue to look at the same point). Then I tilt just my eyeballs to look straight ahead again, so I'm sort of looking out from underneath my brow. That's not how I'd step-by-step do it each time, but it serves as an explanation of how to reproduce what I'm doing. Is that understandable?
sanjuro_ronin
10-11-2007, 05:49 AM
Sort of. How to explain? If I'm standing looking straight in front then I look down at the ground about 10m in front by rotating or tilting my head. Then I draw my chin in by pulling the back of my skull horizontally backwards and pulling my chin at the same time (which causes slightly more rotation if I continue to look at the same point). Then I tilt just my eyeballs to look straight ahead again, so I'm sort of looking out from underneath my brow. That's not how I'd step-by-step do it each time, but it serves as an explanation of how to reproduce what I'm doing. Is that understandable?
Doesn't that lead to tension in the neck?
Why not do what boxers and such do?
t_niehoff
10-11-2007, 05:55 AM
In WT you have to keep your head up but in other arts like boxing etc you tuck your chin in.
Just curious if you guys keep your head up or not and the justification for it?
This is a good example of what we've been talking about.
We can all have different "theories" (justifications) for doing whatever. And they can all sound reasonable, particularly to someone who doesn't have much in the way of experience (fighting with good people). But in my view if you accept anyone's view you are doing yourself a great disservice (besides, unless that person has the experience themself, they are just realying hearsay). The answer can't come from another person. The answer only comes from experience, your personal experience. You need to see for yourself what to do and why.
Does this mean to just get out and fight, and learn from trial and error? No. A good instructior will structure the training so as to put you in realsitic scenarios, sitauations, contexts, where you can experience the demands of fighting. You learn from that experience. You draw your own conclusions independent of anyone else. Application becomes your sifu.
Good boxers keep their chins tucked not because some boxing tenet tells them too or because that is what you are supposed to do, but because they all learn very quickly by sparring with good boxers what will happen if they are not tucked.
Doesn't that lead to tension in the neck?Yeah, probably initially. I'm used to it now though. I can do it all day.
Why not do what boxers and such do?I'm not aware of how boxers do it apart from a little watching of sport fights on TV. OTOH I have seen some prominent kickboxers in my country who tuck their chin but lead with their forehead, i.e. their chin is tucked but their neck is definitely inclined forward, noticeably so. This doesn't strike me as a good idea.
This is a good example of what we've been talking about.
We can all have different "theories" (justifications) for doing whatever. And they can all sound reasonable, particularly to someone who doesn't have much in the way of experience (fighting with good people). But in my view if you accept anyone's view you are doing yourself a great disservice (besides, unless that person has the experience themself, they are just realying hearsay). The answer can't come from another person. The answer only comes from experience, your personal experience. You need to see for yourself what to do and why.
Does this mean to just get out and fight, and learn from trial and error? No. A good instructior will structure the training so as to put you in realsitic scenarios, sitauations, contexts, where you can experience the demands of fighting. You learn from that experience. You draw your own conclusions independent of anyone else. Application becomes your sifu.
Good boxers keep their chins tucked not because some boxing tenet tells them too or because that is what you are supposed to do, but because they all learn very quickly by sparring with good boxers what will happen if they are not tucked.Personally I'd think a bad instructor would put you in situations where you need to work everything out for yourself. I think a good instructor would e.g.:
tell you to tuck your chin
then if you didn't do it, put you in a situation where you get popped on the chin a few times so you learned from your mistake
But from what you said in the quote you'd expect a good instructor to skip 1. and learn everything yourself from 2. You don't need to figure everything out for yourself. Some things are common knowledge and it's easy for a good teacher to teach them.
E.g. I have no groundfighting experience. If someone tells me if I'm in someone's guard I shouldn't extend my arm out with locked elbow to try to keep their shoulders away from me I don't need to do it myself to experience the armbar that would occur. If I had no idea and put myself in that situation and get armbarred, sure I'd learn, but I'd be annoyed if my instructor didn't tell me in advance that it's a bad idea and thought I should figure it out myself by experiencing it. OTOH if they told me not to and I still did it then sure, that's a great way to teach. I made a mistake and paid the price, which is different from paying the price out of ignorance.
From what you're saying above, a good instructor will offer no technical training, just apply situations where you'll learn through necessity to apply whatever works. That's a great notion, but IMHO a system will help you learn some options in advance then when the situation is applied at least you will have some structures to choose from.
Otherwise why learn any system at all? Just set up scenarios and be done with it.
sanjuro_ronin
10-11-2007, 07:02 AM
I'm not aware of how boxers do it apart from a little watching of sport fights on TV. OTOH I have seen some prominent kickboxers in my country who tuck their chin but lead with their forehead, i.e. their chin is tucked but their neck is definitely inclined forward, noticeably so. This doesn't strike me as a good idea.
Some boxers actively incline their foreheads so that the eventual punches that will land, will land on the hardest part of the head, others have that incline because it "naturally" happens when you tuck in your chin and raise your shoulders.
k gledhill
10-11-2007, 07:08 AM
More important is keep your jaw closed....a co-worker from Newcastle UK [ security ] who was a boxer ...told me he would offer a guy he was going to 'chin' aka k.o., a cigarette so the guy would open his jaw enough, and as he opened it ...good night :D didnt take much...or he woud insult your mother just t get you to drop your jaw in response...ko
he was funny , he would put his arm around a guy he was going to 'disipline' and disarm them by making them feel he was their buddy, then he would expalin they where going to go around the corner to have a quick fight :D and suddenly they werent buddies anymore lmao ...funny guy...like T he never took my vt seriously and would attack me all the time , but I gained respect from just doing VT basics back..he only got me by surprise attacks , and surprise never fails. Thats why its a surprise !! moral of story , never accept a cigarette from a security guy ;) especially one from Newcastle called Brad. :D
he had soft hands though, he liked the VT bare hand wall bag conditioning thing , after he hit guys he had swollen fists ...I never had that problem after hitting guys .
Some boxers actively incline their foreheads so that the eventual punches that will land, will land on the hardest part of the head, others have that incline because it "naturally" happens when you tuck in your chin and raise your shoulders.As opposed to actively inclining my forehead, I actively decline my chin. The angle of the front of the face ends up the same, but the whole head is back at least in comparison to e.g. the kickboxers I was thinking of. I attached an example. The fighter on the right, not so much in this picture but in televised fights really pushes his head forwards. Don't get me wrong, he's one tough SOB, very impressive to watch and has a good record. But my neck is more "back" with respect to his.
sanjuro_ronin
10-11-2007, 07:30 AM
In that picture he is just fine.
I wasn't saying he's not, it's just a counterexample to what I do. Personally I feel safer with my head further back. It's only a couple of inches at most, but those inches make me feel that little bit out of range of an opponent's reach (although it never ends up that way :D).
Of course this particular fighter, Gurkan Ozkan, throws bombs so it's usually his opponent who's got to be more worried about having their head back and chin tucked. He's good to watch when he's on fire.
Jeff Bussey
10-11-2007, 07:44 AM
The way I like to think of it, is to look through your eyebrows.
t_niehoff
10-11-2007, 09:58 AM
Personally I'd think a bad instructor would put you in situations where you need to work everything out for yourself. I think a good instructor would e.g.:
tell you to tuck your chin
then if you didn't do it, put you in a situation where you get popped on the chin a few times so you learned from your mistake
I agree that in learning fundamental skills, you need to have someone first teach you how to do them. But, I think typically too much (mis)information is given. It is like learning to ride a bike. Instead of giving them all the details, etc. of what they should be doing, practicing all the varous things in a segmented way, etc., just let them get on and try to ride, see what it entails, etc. If they encounter problems, then suggest possibilites.
But from what you said in the quote you'd expect a good instructor to skip 1. and learn everything yourself from 2. You don't need to figure everything out for yourself. Some things are common knowledge and it's easy for a good teacher to teach them.
To use a math analogy, what I think good instructors do is not give the trainees formulas (techniques) for solving problems but let them go through the process of deriving the formulas themselves. That way they learn much more, it has greatersignificance and resonance to them, and the really understand what is going on.
E.g. I have no groundfighting experience. If someone tells me if I'm in someone's guard I shouldn't extend my arm out with locked elbow to try to keep their shoulders away from me I don't need to do it myself to experience the armbar that would occur. If I had no idea and put myself in that situation and get armbarred, sure I'd learn, but I'd be annoyed if my instructor didn't tell me in advance that it's a bad idea and thought I should figure it out myself by experiencing it. OTOH if they told me not to and I still did it then sure, that's a great way to teach. I made a mistake and paid the price, which is different from paying the price out of ignorance.
From what you're saying above, a good instructor will offer no technical training, just apply situations where you'll learn through necessity to apply whatever works. That's a great notion, but IMHO a system will help you learn some options in advance then when the situation is applied at least you will have some structures to choose from.
Otherwise why learn any system at all? Just set up scenarios and be done with it.
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that you can learn fundamental skills from a good instructor. And I believe that good instruction will revolve around showing you and letting you find out for yourself, why the fundamental skill is being taught as it is.
For example, if I was teaching you to escape the mount (since you used a grondfighting example), I might begin by just mounting you and letting you try to escape. Let you try whatever it is you wanted, all the while maintaining the mount. Let you exhaust yourself. Then I might have you mount me and try to prevent me from escaping. And I'd do a simple bridge and roll to escape. So you could see for yourself how much less energy, movement, etc. you need with good technique. Then show you how to do it (this is where the instruction comes in). Maybe I wouldn't show you in detail, just the bridge and roll - not the trapping of the foot and arm or other details. Let you practice it. OK? Then I post an arm. A problem, the escape fails. How do you deal with that? Maybe you figure out to trap the arm before you roll; if not, I point out the solution. Same with the foot. This way, this process, you are going through what the people who figured the technique out in the first place went through -- the problem solving process. You are deriving the technique for yourself under my guidance.
That process is extremely important because you are learning to think like a fighter, to encounter problems and solve them.
southernkf
10-11-2007, 10:16 AM
In WT you have to keep your head up but in other arts like boxing etc you tuck your chin in.
Just curious if you guys keep your head up or not and the justification for it?
THe head up theory, in my wing chun, helps in the posture and mechanics. It is vital for wing chun. But in boxing you have different forces at work that would make this same trait unfavorable. Fighting for 30-45 minutes against a highly skilled opponent in a punching game may not warrent the head held in this position. The stances and punches don't require the same body mechanics either.
So I do keep the head held straight. I also have had problems dealing with certain boxing like counters where the head gets tagged. The solution isn't to adjust the head, but to apply wing chun in the manner that the head doesn't get tagged. You have to apply pressure so those attacks arn't the ones that get through.
YungChun
10-11-2007, 10:29 AM
What about head movement or body angulations? Can your WCK *slip*? Can you angle your head and body to avoid an attack or does this violate the straight up and down? IMO I never take the forms that literally and see greater flexibility in them.
southernkf
10-11-2007, 02:05 PM
Not sure if your asking me. Other people may do wing chun differently. Or more appropriately, they do do it differently based on my conversations. In my version, the head is held upright for a reason. Everything is done for a reason, else there is no reason to do it. :confused: Right? So what is the reason for the head up and the other stuff. It is simple. It is all about alignment. I have heard some suggest that the head up [and back] moves it out of the way from being hit. This I don't quite agree with because it is just like a big sore thumb sticking out. I beleive it has to do with structure. The muscles in the body work in a coordinated way. One group has an effect on another. Today we tend to see muscles in isolation, but early anatomists tended to seem them in groups or trains. Recently I read parts of a book called Anatomy Trains that talked about the interactions of groups of muscles. I beleive this idea plays a role in wing chun as well. When the head, for instance, is aligned properly wing chun (the wing chu I do) works better as a whole unit. If I ignore the head and watch my hands, feet, or look to the side, then I am affecting a certain structure. So in short, I don't bob and weave or move my head in any way that I don't train for. This works for boxers beautifully. But I don't feel it was a force that was built into the wing chun. Now others may play their wing chun differently and have a use for this.
anerlich
10-11-2007, 06:06 PM
Doesn't that lead to tension in the neck?
What if it does? Every wrestler on the planet learns to stay "bull-necked" from very early on.
tjwingchun
10-12-2007, 05:24 AM
Good boxers keep their chins tucked not because some boxing tenet tells them too or because that is what you are supposed to do, but because they all learn very quickly by sparring with good boxers what will happen if they are not tucked.
You mean good boxers like Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard and Prince Naseem?
Just a thought, they also spent most of the time without a guard up!
It is all about understanding range and situation, to be flexible and adjust to what you are facing, not being predictive.
Nevermind a massive dose of talent.
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