How important is your School Flag?

[LoneTiger108]

To me personally, the Flag played a significant role in my Kung Fu learning. I was just wondering if anyone else has trained Flag work, or if it is actively promoted in your School?

[Shaolinlueb]

schools have flags?

lol jk.

we dont have a flag. i have seen fight scenes with them. i just shrug my shoulder that we dont have one.

if someone tells me not having a flag means your not a traditional school. it's as stupid as the head judge of the eagle claw ring at tjl 06 who told me "you didn't do the opening bow for eagle claw so your form isnt traditional, i will have to deduct points"

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What bow did you use?

[MasterKiller]

Wait...you mean like a flag girl at a football game?

Wtf?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Some Tai Tzu lines have flag waving forms. I think it's like Lion Dancing....it's ceremonial.

[Ben Gash]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=acFqiHmtUVY
There are more extreme versions with people doing tumbling against the flag too.

[lkfmdc]

I tell you, if it wasn't for the secret Tibetan Lama Pai sect flag, we'd never win a fight!!!!!!!!

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you got to be f-in joking right?

[B-Rad]

Also never had a flag...

[David Jamieson]

filial association flags, tong flags and baners are commonly associated with kungfu kwoons everywhere.

the thing is, there is a huge underlying aspect of cultural preservation that goes on with the aid of kungfu schools.

most times, if you want to learn trad cma, then you will simply have to suck it up and learn teh cultural idiomatic stuff as well.

if you don't like that, well that's your prerogative.

tradition is tradition.

also it has little to do with fighting, but then when learning art, how does knowing who leonardo da vinci was help you with your brush technique? hmmmn?

[Wong Ying Home]

Adam,

You should not have had points deducted for not performing the eagle claw Hoi Jong
or opening sequence to your form. A simple salute to the judges is sufficient.

Mark or courtesy and respect is all that is required, competitions should not judge a competitor on wether they do a Hoi jong or opening sequence to the form. It is the form you are being marked on not the opening sequence.

However if you dont know the Hoi Jong for eagle claw that is a different matter

[firepalm]

Flagwork with tumbling
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AK--O423t5c

But this is not Chinese Martial Arts. This is a branch cultural aspect of Kung Fu per se, like most Southern style schools have Lion Dancing as a big part of the styles & schools.

However to the best of my knowledge very few traditional styles have an actual routine of Flag Work and even less with the tumbling over flags (which is more a part of Chinese Acrobatics then anything).

Of course Flags & Banners adorn many traditional schools & are brought out at Festivals & Parades.

All this stuff though is really just culture & has little or nothing to do with the actual fighting aspect of CMA. :cool:

[Shaolinlueb]

Adam,

You should not have had points deducted for not performing the eagle claw Hoi Jong
or opening sequence to your form. A simple salute to the judges is sufficient.

Mark or courtesy and respect is all that is required, competitions should not judge a competitor on wether they do a Hoi jong or opening sequence to the form. It is the form you are being marked on not the opening sequence.

However if you dont know the Hoi Jong for eagle claw that is a different matter


i know the lily lau opening and shum leung opening. he asked me why i didnt do it. i was like cause i didnt know it was required. he was a real ****, tried ot make example out of me. then i performed long fist form, he wouldnt even show my score and gave me the lowest possible one. just out of spite. he even said to me before the ring in a real harsh tone and pointed his finger "if you're doing another eagle claw form do the opening!!" everyone looked at me like wtf is his problem? i did bsl moi fa with no opening. the two other judges gave me their highest scores.

[CLFNole]

There is always one at every tournament. Too many "sifus" with power trips.

[KC Elbows]

I do a traditional Irish salute, with a bottle of Irish whiskey, usually in the midst of a crying jag. It's quite beautiful.

[LoneTiger108]

Flagwork with tumbling
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AK--O423t5c

But this is not Chinese Martial Arts. This is a branch cultural aspect of Kung Fu per se, like most Southern style schools have Lion Dancing as a big part of the styles & schools.

However to the best of my knowledge very few traditional styles have an actual routine of Flag Work and even less with the tumbling over flags (which is more a part of Chinese Acrobatics then anything).

Of course Flags & Banners adorn many traditional schools & are brought out at Festivals & Parades.

All this stuff though is really just culture & has little or nothing to do with the actual fighting aspect of CMA. :cool:

You have some valid points here but like all equipment, the flag as a training aid is terribly under rated. After all, what I'm talking of here is holding a pole which has the added weight and drag of a flag. Most acrobatic routines I know use lighter sticks for speed purposes, but a flag pole is a flag pole and it requires a certain concentration to wield one effectively.

The argument about Flags being nothing to do with the fighting aspect of CMA is an old one to me, as I was convinced how much I could benefit from training with a flag after my very first session. My stances improved dramatically, and my upper body coordination was refined, helping to generate more power than I ever thought I could.

I admit, this is all left for interpretation and I often wondered why the hell I bothering with it myself as I was learning Wing Chun! My Sifu was big on Culture and we were a 30 strong team at one time, but thats another story...

[golden arhat]

I do a traditional Irish salute, with a bottle of Irish whiskey, usually in the midst of a crying jag. It's quite beautiful.

no mate

this is an irish salute

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ytcZIfvSWW4 :D

[KC Elbows]

no mate

this is an irish salute

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ytcZIfvSWW4 :D

I knew someone would bring up compulsory Irish wushu.

[Shaolinlueb]

its amazing the amount of p*ssy michael flatly gets

[B-Rad]

You have some valid points here but like all equipment, the flag as a training aid is terribly under rated. After all, what I'm talking of here is holding a pole which has the added weight and drag of a flag. Most acrobatic routines I know use lighter sticks for speed purposes, but a flag pole is a flag pole and it requires a certain concentration to wield one effectively.
Do you use it like other schools would do big staff or big spear training? Or is like like regular staff work but with a flag at the end?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv15uF0DMIM

[SPJ]

To me personally, the Flag played a significant role in my Kung Fu learning. I was just wondering if anyone else has trained Flag work, or if it is actively promoted in your School?

When I was in kuoshu clubs in high school and college in Taiwan, there were only the school banners, when we competed.

There was a banner saying summer training camp in 1974 etc for photoshoot.

We wore shirts with school name only.

--

In 1980's, my brother ran a Kuoshu federation school. There was no school flag. The students wore loose fit exercise clothes. There were no uniforms, either.

--

We had lion dance. We did not have flag work. But we did have long spear and staff work.

--

:D

[LoneTiger108]

Do you use it like other schools would do big staff or big spear training? Or is like like regular staff work but with a flag at the end?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv15uF0DMIM

I guess the answer to your question is yes. In Lee Shing Wing Chun we practice both the Cudgel and the heavier Pole. The 'Luk Dim Boon Gwun' is very similar to spear plays I've seen, like the clip, but the main difference is in the grips and lead-hand. We tend to lead with the right-hand, unlike a spear player. There are reasons for this ie Spearplays tend to use the strongest hand at the rear to help 'shoot' and 'push' the spear forward and the left helps with accuracies. This, according to my learning, is because the spear tip is lighter than the butt-end of the stick. Having a right-hand lead suggest that we are holding a heavier weapon, like a 'Gwun Dao', or a Flag and used more for power striking at one point. Comparisons between Footsoldiers and Generals in the Military were often used to emphasize this idea.

Everybody must understand the benefits of this type of training! But I still stand firm on my point that the Flag is an excellent piece of equipment that benefits your overall balance and health in a big way. It should never just be left rolled up in the corner of your gwoon.

[LoneTiger108]

When I was in kuoshu clubs in high school and college in Taiwan, there were only the school banners, when we competed.

We had lion dance. We did not have flag work. But we did have long spear and staff work.

The Lion/Unicorn dancing I have seen and practiced is fantastic for stamina training! Let alone all the complexities of stepping 'in character' and holding that **** head up!

I also noticed you refer to Kuoshu, the pre-cursor to modern Wushu, which unfortunately just isn't discussed that much anymore in the UK. What I can say is this; my Grandmaster Lee Shing was a Kuoshu Artist, not a Wushu coach, and he had a tremendous amount of influence on my Sifu. I have always understood that Kuoshu refers to Chinas 'National' Art, and will obviously hold certian Cultural practices whereas Modern Wushu is a sport orientated 'playful' art that has spread across the globe in the last fifty or so years.

I have equal respect for both, but I am obviously drawn more to the Culture than most as I had no choice in my day. What Sifu said, I done, and I would never change a thing...

[LoneTiger108]

I've watched this thread lose its momentum and was wondering if the general users of this forum believe that the Flag has no real use for the Martial Artist...

Is it just for dancing?

[Becca]

I've watched this thread lose its momentum and was wondering if the general users of this forum believe that the Flag has no real use for the Martial Artist...

Is it just for dancing?Is it just for dancing? Yes. That does not mean it has no use "for the martial artist." It has no use for some artists, it has none for others. And then there's MK, who has a thing for flag girls (and maybe the flag boys too; I don't know).

[B-Rad]

One thing I don't get... if you practice with the flag in a different grip than the staff, how does it improve that aspect of training? The flag itself isn't much of a weapon, and heavier weapons like pu dao or kwan dao already have plenty of weight at the end (unless you're using a cheapo spring steel weapon). I mean, it might help you increase your strength some, but I don't see any real practical reason especially if you're already practicing long staff and/or other heavy weapons.

[Becca]

LOL! Take it from a former flagger, those things are pretty heavy when you're spinning them. Remember, the flag creates drag, so a 1/2 pound pole with a 1 yard taffita flag can be as challenging as a 4 pound stave. And, the grips are not different; they are exactly the same. It also gets you very comfortable with things flying very fast around your head.

... But there is nothing you can get martial wise from a flag that you can't get just working with a stave. It can be more entertaining, though, and brakes up the menotiny.

[MasterKiller]

Is it just for dancing? And then there's MK, who has a thing for flag girls (and maybe the flag boys too; I don't know). Keep talking dirty like that and I might have to drive to Colorado. :-O

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, if we take the "L" out of flag in this thread, it has a whole new meaning and so do all the posts.:D

[LoneTiger108]

You know, if we take the "L" out of flag in this thread, it has a whole new meaning and so do all the posts.:D

:D My first smile, just for you!

Make of that what you like to because if we were all to take your name seriously you would have served an Emperor in Japan eh?

[LoneTiger108]

... But there is nothing you can get martial wise from a flag that you can't get just working with a stave. It can be more entertaining, though, and brakes up the menotiny.

Flags can be a great distraction, and if I was concealing a knife-man behind my flag, is there no Martial wisdom in my tactic?

[Lucas]

Similar to the aspects of armed combat carrying over into unarmed combat.

Timing, distance, perception, etc...

I can easily see how flag work can benefit us in many ways.

I do not practice flag work myself, yet similar to many other training tools we use, it is not without its benefits.


forms or no forms


flags or no flags


to be or not to be

What was the question?

[LoneTiger108]

How important is your School Flag?

[street_fighter]

I'd say somewhere between bumper stickers and fighting...

[Lucas]

how important is my school flag?

It is not important at all.

My Sifu doesnt have a school flag....

[LoneTiger108]

This clip says it all really! I was one of a pair of team leaders at this 'long forgotten' event in the UK...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Em0-tCDogE

[LoneTiger108]

"Jun Mo team members met with Corinna Pyke, Culture Officer of Hackney’s 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games Unit, on Sunday 29th of June 2008 to discuss Jun Mo’s participation in London’s celebrations of the Olympic flag handover event on the 24th August 2008. It’s a big event and there will be a lot of happenings all over London. Jun Mo will take the important task of signaling the start of the actual Olympic flag handover, by showcasing a spectacular display of martial arts and gymnastics, most notable of these is the Wing Chun martial art of Lee Shing lineage. The event will be in Shoreditch Park from 1pm to 5pm. If you want to be actually participating with Jun Mo in this historical event for London, please contact us here at Jun Mo. Watch this space."

More info available online
http://www.junmo.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=167&Itemid=1

And here's a clip for the interested
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uxSkpL98-xI

I ask again!

How important is your School Flag?

[SimonM]

My school has no flag.
We also have never trained lion dancing.
Oh well... I guess we are all just a bunch of over-glorified kick boxers.

[SimonM]

Similar to the aspects of armed combat carrying over into unarmed combat.

Timing, distance, perception, etc...


See this is a bit of a misconception in some ways.... lots of aspects of armed combat don't work so well when carried over into unarmed combat. Fight against a person and watch what happens when they lunge with a punch. They get smaked.

[Lucas]

Thats why I threw the term aspects in there.

which would denote, specifics, not all inclusive. :p

im tricky and i always make sure i have an out ;)

[Ray Pina]

Flag of Iron is a classic Venoms flick.

I've been at schools with flags and lion dancing. One of my major critics was too much time and nut riding going on with those money producing activities and not enough on getting the technique to where it should be.

The best places I've trained focused 100% on training.

[Lucas]

i hear you.

i got involved in a lion dance team once in the past.

after a few hours of practice i decided my time would have been better spent with a heavy bag or some sparring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its a cultural thing, if you are into great, if not, that's ok too.

[Lucas]

Its a cultural thing, if you are into great, if not, that's ok too.

you're to wishy washy, where the wimminz

[SimonM]

Don't get me wrong: I think Lion dancing is REALLY neat.

We just don't do it at my school. But we do Jiu Jutsu.

[Lucas]

Don't get me wrong: I think Lion dancing is REALLY neat.

We just don't do it at my school. But we do Jiu Jutsu.

IMO you got the better end of that trade off.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't get me wrong: I think Lion dancing is REALLY neat.

We just don't do it at my school. But we do Jiu Jutsu.

Gay loving, lion dancing, flag waving, nut riding, hey man, whatever floats your boat.

[SimonM]

Spoken like a true....

um...

nut rider?

[Ray Pina]

I love lion dancing. I got into it when training Hung Gar/Wing Chun/S Mantis. it was fun, cool to learn but ultimately it made money for the teacher doing New Years shows, didn't help our Kung Fu. I know the teacher would argue differently, and some of the training improves stances, arm strength etc., but the school has never produced fighters. Too much form. Too much lion dancing.

What's worse, is that the school culture fed itself. If you were a "good student" you lion danced, thus got seniority and more forms. Then you have these guys who think they're Jet Li, can climb up all kinds of things and hop on shoulders for cabbage but the idea of fighting would soil their pants. The mentality was corrupt if you were seeking to be a fighter.

[LoneTiger108]

Flag of Iron is a classic Venoms flick.

I've been at schools with flags and lion dancing. One of my major critics was too much time and nut riding going on with those money producing activities and not enough on getting the technique to where it should be.

The best places I've trained focused 100% on training.

I found that too.

FYI The Lion Dance planned will be performed by a local Mantis Sifu and his team, the Wing Chun content will more likely be the familiar forms, stick plays and flags of the Jun Mo school.

I like the activity and presentation idea, especially if you do have something that's unique. I was involved with Jun Mo for many years, and a solid team is very hard to find. Ofcourse nobody likes the interruption in training when everything suddenly becomes a rehearsal!

Training without fighting isn't so popular today I guess...

[David Jamieson]

Training without fighting isn't so popular today I guess...

Not on this forum. :p

[SimonM]

I disagree with you sir! The only to prove that training without fighting is popular on this forum is an e-challenge. Flames to the death!

[LoneTiger108]

... The only to prove that training without fighting is popular on this forum is an e-challenge. Flames to the death!

If only eh? :p