Applications

[KC Elbows]

Lately I've been learning a lot of the applications for two of the forms I practice, and I was wondering how many of you guys have forms that you don't know all the applications for yet. I have two such forms, my longfist and an internal-external form I am learning.

[Waidan]

I think with most any form, you'll keep finding applications as long as you keep looking. Particularly when you add unknown factors like multiple attackers, even simple movements can have many, many applications.

Of course that's just my opinion. Results may vary.

[Braden]

I can't believe that anyone would seriously learn direct applications from a form. Forms are about principles of movement; once you understand them, applications become infinite.

[shinwa]

I seriously agree with Braden.

[Nexus]

Great post Braden. It is not often good to tell beginners in the martial arts that, but you will often hear after some time and dedication things such as 'Now that you know the forms, I am telling you to just forget them'.

:D

[KC Elbows]

It is a good point. However, I think my teacher's intent was to show those principles of movement in action. He by no means was saying "This is the only way to use them", but more "Here's some things you can do, show me more!"

I'm just getting used to that concept, and its making me think about my forms a lot more.

Thanks for the input, everyone. :)

[Braden]

KC Elbows - That makes sense; I was reacting to the idea of "have you learned all the applications in your form?" as if there is supposed to be 3 ways of using this posture, and 5 ways of using that one.

Drilling applications is important, even contrived, ridiculously-large-circle applications like ones taken from forms; like you said, as templates for understanding the principle of movement (there are many times when you cannot properly understand what you should be doing until you're doing it against a resisting opponent) - as well as for introductory lessons in distance, timing, etc.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Exactly, you always have the direct, obvious application in the form (the one you know what's all about when looking at the move), and then there are hidden applications that rely more on the principle than on the external move everyone sees...from this one, it's up to you, you can find countless applications depending on the situation with the opponent (distance, timing) or with you (level of expertise etc...).

[Mr. Nemo]

"I can't believe that anyone would seriously learn direct applications from a form. Forms are about principles of movement; once you understand them, applications become infinite."

I've seriously learned direct applications from a form. I don't know about infinite applications, but there are specific applications to the moves we do in the forms at my school.

[MaFuYee]

oh great!... this argument again...
i thought we mashed that horse to glue already.

... anyway, just to throw in my 2 cents:
i find that so far, from my experience, 100% of the students of the 'principle only' schools, totally sucked arse.

i think the reason for this is, they probably never really drill useful applications, because their too busy philosophising on their 'every technique has a bazillion applications' theory; so they never get a chance to practice anything more than once. - i've played with a 10+ year tai chi practitioner, and ran circles around him. - even when i was cooperating, and feeding him punches, he couldn't do much of anything...

me, i'll stick to the basics. - what works.
i may only have 3 techniques to your 10 million, but at least i'll be able to use mine.
:p

Why would you say that I am insane? I wouldn't say that I've lost my mind simply because I've heard the voices and seen the godless things moving in the woods. If anything, I think more clearly now than ever before. - Ash

[HuangKaiVun]

It depends on the style.

Some styles, like my Seng Men style, have moves that are direct applications.

Other styles, like Tzuranmen, have no clear applications in their "sets". Actually Tzuranmen doesn't even really have "sets" per se.

Either way, I prefer to keep things simple and pretty strict with the form. That's just my personality.

[KC Elbows]

MaFuYee,
Yes, the mathematical problem becomes "I have one billion techniques here, so I will only have time to practice half of them once," but in reality, one should pick the techniques that suits them and focus on them, so that one can acquire skill and actually use the style in a fight.

I agree Huang. There are some moves in the beginning form we practice that are really only good for one thing. You could use these moves against other techniques, but they are less than ideal facing techniques that are outside of their initial intent, if that makes any sense.

[MIKSANSOO]

waiden,

can you please tell me how the forms from baqua and san soo differ. i have considered san soo forms as to be more combative than other styles. what are your thoughts?

"you can take my life, but not my confidence"
Jimmy H. Woo

[Braden]

MFY - Wierd. I drill basic applications all the time. Besides which, everything I do is derived from footwork and a few simple combinations of body movement which can arise spontaneously from the energy drills we practice. I don't even try to piece together a real combat using various applications, no matter how well or poorly they are practiced. I don't think combat is logical enough for this to be a viable strategy.

Nemo - Me too, like I said. But I do not drill to use them as they are drawn 'seriously directly' from a form. They're simply too contrived and large-circle. For instance, 'wild goose leaves flock' from bagua (I'm sure you have a version of it; it's when you move from a pigeon-toed or horse stance facing outside the circle to your circlewalking stance; your hands twist so they go from being parallel to the ground to pointing straight up, the to-be-guard-hand lower, around the elbow of the other; then your waist twists inward and your arms arc down, hands twisting to point the palms into the circle as one leg follows to make the stance) is probably one of the most important moves in bagua. You can practice it exactly from the form, for example, as a takedown when you have entered one leg behind someone, pushing them over it with your arms; or as a spiralling arm bar where your to-be-guard-hand grabs the wrist and your other hand presses down into the armpit or elbow-pit as it arcs down, bending your opponent forward at the waist. However, it's main lesson is in the piercing, twisting, and 'settling' that the arms do. Done extremely small-circle (ie. forget the footwork and the directional change; you're facing someone, arms extended, and keep your arm extended, but 'internally' do a very tightly coiled version of the same movement to basically just move your arm, maybe with an advancing step, maybe not) this move provides the basic template for simultaneous block/control/strike with one arm in bagua, as well as (if you disect each component) the moves for bagua pushing hands.

'Fierce tiger leaps out' is one of my two favorite postures from the bagua circular form; both of which I love to use almost directly from the form. On one side, it is a bow stance with right leg forward; right upper arm forward parallel with ground and forearm pointing almost straight up with palm facing your face; left arm forward so the elbows almost line up, as if doing a palm-heel strike straight forward. I absolutely love this posture, and started drilling it a long time ago with single-movement-application-practice. Then I began incoporating it into energy drills. Wow, was I surprised. In the heat of 'some guy trying to smack you in the face' you CANNOT do it like it appears in the form, or how you can do it in S-M-A-P (well, you can, it'd just get you smacked). When you incorporate your sticking energies, your yielding practice, and your other fundamental energies, and when you incorporate plain not-wanting-to-get-hit by some guy doing random techniques with determination, you breath new life into the postures - and they tend to overtly look alot different. This is what I mean when I use terms like 'seriously directly', 'contrived', and 'ridiculously large-circle.' Did I mean you don't practice any applications? No, that's silly. Did I mean you practice a billion applications once each? No, that's silly.

What I meant is that all the techniques you really need come from the most fundamental things in your style - in the case of bagua, the circlewalking stance and inside directional changes. How to use them should arise spontaneously from energy drills, so that you don't have to piece together a jigsaw puzzle of techniques in real combat. Forms are mainly intended to expand upon the principles that are found in these two kinds of practice. Not that that makes them unimportant. For 'gravy' begin incorporating your favorite postures from forms into your energy drills. Don't be confused when they start to look very different.

What I am saying is that the energies of 'wild goose leaves flock' are inherent in a correct circlewalking stance - they're allready there. But unless your name is Dong Hai-Chuan, you're probably not going to recognize that on your own. And so 'wild goose leaves flock' was born. In fact, the energies in 'fierce tiger leaps out' are also present in 'wild goose leaves flock' and therefore also in the basic stance; simply with an advancing step and weight-sink thrown in. This is what I mean by techniques arising from footwork and a combination of body principles. Have you ever heard that all of bagua is in the single palm change, and all of bagua is in the circlewalking, etc? This is what is meant by that.

[This message was edited by Braden on 10-26-01 at 11:52 AM.]

[Braden]

ttt

[KC Elbows]

Thanks Braden.

OK, I can see how pa kua footwork makes for techniques that have lots and lots of applications. Does tai chi have some sort of general strategy in its footwork that does a similar thing? Hope that makes sense.

[Braden]

KC - I don't train in taiji, but it's my understanding that the eight directions (pushing hands and da lu) form the basis for being able to apply real-time reactive techniques based on taiji principles. Similar to what I briefly mentioned in my post, they can be (and are) practiced with (or without) a variety of footwork movements.

Maybe a taiji artist will clarify though.

[KC Elbows]

What is da lu?

[Braden]

Do you know what pushing hands is? Basic push hands uses the four 'cardinal directions' - the first four basic energies of taiji. Da lu is like an add-on to pushing hands (or can be done by itself) which utilizes the 'four corners' - the next four of the eight basic energies.

http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/Dalu.htm