What has happened to the 'Rattan Rings'?

[LoneTiger108]

I know I'm new to this forum posting, but after trawling through as many as I can I still haven't seen any mention of the 'Rattan Rings'. Forgive my rashness, but I was under the impression that Yip Man 'loved' this training aid as I once saw a pic of a local store back in the day which had loads of them hanging around!

Does anybody still train with this elusive piece of equipment?

[Mr Punch]

I know I'm new to this forum posting, but after trawling through as many as I can I still haven't seen any mention of the 'Rattan Rings'. Forgive my rashness, but I was under the impression that Yip Man 'loved' this training aid as I once saw a pic of a local store back in the day which had loads of them hanging around!

Does anybody still train with this elusive piece of equipment?OMG, not this one.

Search again! Put 'rings' or 'rattan rings' in the search box... good luck!

[Vajramusti]

Some Yien Kay Shan folks use them. Check Rene's site. Rings are not big in Ip Man WC.

Joy chaudhuri

[donbdc]

We use them in CRCA Wing Chun. Its a good tool for developing whirlpool energy and correct allignment w/ complex blocks and attacks. I will try and get you more info if you are interested.
Don

[woodendumby]

I bought a rattan ring just bfore I started at my Kwoon...eager to have something to mess around with. but, my sifu promptly told me that it was a bad idea ... kind of a fad that died out. He said it was bad for form...but then I guess everyone has their own opinion.

[donbdc]

At least try doing Gahn/Jom's w/ It and some foot work. I think you'll find it helpful

[LoneTiger108]

OMG, not this one.

Search again! Put 'rings' or 'rattan rings' in the search box... good luck!

I did Mr Punch, and wasn't impressed too much with the little I read to be honest! You too seem to have an allergy to the rings lol! Intigued as I am to see who has trained with them, it was pretty obvious that the majority feel they are useless and have no purpose in Wing Chun.

It is very refreshing to note the positive responses here though, as I too am an advocate of Ring training. AGAIN, I put my neck on the line and say that I am an equipment fanatic! I have experimented like the magazine copy that I saw in one of the threads, and I believe that, with the little knowledge I have, I will continue to be entertained by the Rings for years to come.

A great therapeutic tool that was only introduced to me later on due to us not being able to purchase anything suitable. In the end, we had to manufacture our own due to the nature of our interactive sessions...

[Mr Punch]

You should read again sir! :)

Despite my line(s!) never having used them I've always defended their use against umpteen people who blanket state that they're no use to the energies in wing chun, when they themselves have no experience!

[LoneTiger108]

I did Mr Punch, and wasn't impressed too much with the little I read to be honest! You too seem to have an allergy to the rings lol!

I'm happy and relieved to apologize for my assumptions Mr Punch, and I look forward to re-reading the posts mentioned. The Rings are worthy of such defence.

[donbdc]

From what I read on the old thread about rings, it seems most of the people who are so anti-ring training must be thinking we use the ring with both hands inserted through the same side of the ring, when actually that is not how it's used at all. And as far as it causing your arms to split apart, remember that you are only touching the ring in two places at any given time - in that respect it's no different than hitting the wooden dummy with two arms at once. And it takes no outward pressure to keep the ring from falling anyway - your correct position and gravity keeps it from falling off. In any case, even if it did take outward pressure, why would that somehow detract from your sticky hands or other structure? Does the fact that you open your car door every day affect your ability to keep your elbow in when you stick hands? Does spreading your curtains open in the morning cause your hands to spread open at the wrong time in combat?

[southernkf]

I am not familiar with any "offical" rattan rings being taught by any line from Yip Man. By this I mean it doesn't seem to stem from his teachings as a core or even secondary training method. Some people in his line no doubt picked up and perhaps advocate the tool. But it seems to be personal preference. This doesn't imply he NEVER taught it to anyone or that he had an opinion one way or the other. Just. as noted above, it doesn't seem to be a common, or even vaguely used in Yip Man wing chun.

My thought was the reason we don't see it, assuming Yip Man was aware of it, is because it is not fundamental to wing chun. I would make the assumption that if it really developed skills, Yip Man and his students would have advocated its use. Perhaps it is a so called close door thing and all the great masters are hiding in the closet while doing the rings. LOL.

My opinion is there may be some good that can come from the tool. But I think there is equally as much bad, if not more. There are certain moves that dictate the hands be so far apart, but many others that don't. Some people do the chain punch, which I think is partially wrong because it causes a huge circle to have to be performed, depending on how you do the ring. Many other techniques also follow the same pattern and wouldn't be the best approach. Part of the problem is the outward pressure that has to be applied. Granted this isn't always done this way depending on the technique performed with it. I am sure many advocates find wonderful uses for the ring. I am not suggesting it isn't usefully for some, just that it doesn't seem to work for many others. I would prefer to spend my time with another practitioner if available, or work on many other drills and tools like the dummy or pole exercises along with certain other exercises.

Perhaps a good question is, did anyone learn the Ring from Yip Man? Does anyone have the ring as part of their training. Those outside of Yip Man, how do you utilize the ring? Is it a free form drill or more of a set of stuff you practice?

[donbdc]

Sometimes other practitioners are not there when you want to train, and most people I know don't invest in a wooden man in the first months of training. A ring is a small investment and can help develop proper mechanics. especially, preventing flying elbows and w/ foot work can provide a tool for hand and feet coordination which is essential for power.

[southernkf]

Hi,

How does the ring prevent flying elbows? Do you using it at the elbows? I have seen a few different people demo the ring here and there and they had it lower on the forearms. My thought is if it is pressing in on your arms, then you will have a tendency to press outwards which would cause the elbows to fly out when the ring is not there. But that is probably based on my naive understanding.

So how do you train with it to improve? How does it prvent the elbow from flying out? Any thoughts why it isn't more common if it was really a good training tool?

[Lugoman]

Someone on another forum told me that weight training, particularly kettlebells would ruin my WC. They also said I'd go blind too.

I don't understand the use of the ring, so I let it go in another thread here.
I don't know why some people seem to believe that if you do anything outside of what they're doing your WC is going to suffer.

I've pretty much given up on getting straight answers on the web in regard to this style. There just doesn't seem to be any middle ground where anyone can meet on most topics related to WC.

[donbdc]

Well I guess I am a radical as I use them both and love them. But as far as the ring preventing flying elbows and fwd pressure, don't you do that when you are on the dummy? If you are doing loy and noy kwan sao drills arent you applying similiar pressure?
As for preventing flying elbows, I believe it helps to develop muscle memory and proper bone joint allignment for the new student. A lot of training in the beggining is like learning to pat your head and rub your tummy. Complex hand movements combined w/ proper fot work is hard. If you have been doing it for a while, it is easily taken for granted. Any tool to help speed up that awkward process and allow the student to feel and thereby understand yin and yang energy coupled w/ timing and foot work is priceless.
Kettlebells anyone?

[anerlich]

I don't know why some people seem to believe that if you do anything outside of what they're doing your WC is going to suffer.

There's no shortage of evidence on this forum that (too) many people crave the approval of others for their own world view, and attack rhose who do not share it, out of, I guess, fear that the others might be right and they wrong, or that other people don't have the same regard for their intelligence (or otherwise) that they do.

I have such a ring, yes, and a dummy, but I hardly ever use the ring. IMO there are better ways to spend my training time. YMMV.

I have a kettlebell, and do a lot of those exercises, but I found that I could do almost all of the kettlebell drills using weight-adjustable dumbbells - swing, snatch, C&J, press, windmill, renegade rows, etc.. The prices the KB vendors charge for lumps of cast iron are tountamount to daylight robbery, and I'm just not prepared to pay them.

[Liddel]

it doesn't seem to be a common, or even vaguely used in Yip Man wing chun.

IME this is true.



My thought was the reason we don't see it, assuming Yip Man was aware of it, is because it is not fundamental to wing chun.

I agree



I would make the assumption that if it really developed skills, Yip Man and his students would have advocated its use. Perhaps it is a so called close door thing and all the great masters are hiding in the closet while doing the rings. LOL.


IMO its not a closed door thing, its purely to do with how one copes with learning VT as a style.

IMO Andrew pretty much nailed it on the head - there are better ways to get to the same results as the ring training. Then again people use it for different reasons.

Years ago i came across the rings (which id never seen nor heard of in my own training) and asked my Sifu if His teachers Lok Yiu or Gm Ip used/ advocated the use of the rings.... His account was that they did use it.....

BUT it was only offered to those that had trouble with elbow position and was used at the elbow position for that very purpose. To be perfectly honest my Sifu did look at it as training wheels for those that had problems with what many others didnt, hence it not being used by all.

- one man runs while another uses a tread mill - i personally skip - same purpose = cardio

Different strokes for different folks - dont seek others approval if you feel it works for you - i dont use it - you do - sweet.

DREW

[southernkf]

Someone on another forum told me that weight training, particularly kettlebells would ruin my WC. They also said I'd go blind too.

I don't understand the use of the ring, so I let it go in another thread here.
I don't know why some people seem to believe that if you do anything outside of what they're doing your WC is going to suffer.

I've pretty much given up on getting straight answers on the web in regard to this style. There just doesn't seem to be any middle ground where anyone can meet on most topics related to WC.

Hi Lugoman,

I hope your eyesight improves. You gotta watch those Kettlebells! :D

I can't speak for others but I can offer my thoughts on the topic. It isn't that ANY thing can hurt your wing chun, just the opposite. Not everything improves it. My comment was on the rings and flying elbows. If you train your elbows in such a manner that they tend to press outwards then you may be causing bad habits. This is important for me since I am predisposed to flying elbows. Others may not have the same issue or concerns.

As for weight training, I don't think it neither helps nor hurts your wing chun as long as it is done correctly. The caveat is that as you grow larger, you *could* cause some issues of concern. But I would tend to think those are only in isolated cases and not pertenant to most people. I think what most people tend to think about is that "strong" people tend to be preocuppied with strength. I am not sure if that is true or not as I havn't accumulated enough info. Some people argue that it isn't true. I have seen some cases where it is somewhat true. So I think it just depends, as most things. I tend to think smart weight training is not directly related to smart wing chun training.

[southernkf]

Well I guess I am a radical as I use them both and love them. But as far as the ring preventing flying elbows and fwd pressure, don't you do that when you are on the dummy? If you are doing loy and noy kwan sao drills arent you applying similiar pressure?/QUOTE]

No, not at all. No flying elbows on the dummy or anywhere else, atleast that is what I try. Forward energy, sure, but I dont see how the rings help with that, which is why I asked and am currious.

[QUOTE]
As for preventing flying elbows, I believe it helps to develop muscle memory and proper bone joint allignment for the new student. A lot of training in the beggining is like learning to pat your head and rub your tummy. Complex hand movements combined w/ proper fot work is hard. If you have been doing it for a while, it is easily taken for granted. Any tool to help speed up that awkward process and allow the student to feel and thereby understand yin and yang energy coupled w/ timing and foot work is priceless.
Kettlebells anyone?

Interesting. I'll have to look more at it. What I have seen, and admittedly implied, was that it wouldn't work for the traits I am after. perhaps i need to reevaluate it. But I am still skeptical that it would give me the skills I am after. After all, I am not just interested in keeping the elbows in, but much more than that.

[donbdc]

That is exactly what I meant. No flying elbows at all, the energy is focused foward w/ a yin and yang hand creating whirlpool energy. The ring has to be small(I'll get dimensions) Hands go in opposite and just try gahn/joms w/ Choma or bracing foot work. It's just a tool to play w/. Have fun w/ it You can use all of the complex attacks or blocks. some are easier than others.
As for kettlebells vs.free weights: whatever works for you! Train hard!

[woodendumby]

Well, I might take mine out of the closet and give it a go...however I have no clue how to train with it. As I stated, my Sifu disaproves... so I won't ask him, ;)

Anyone no of a couple good sources on how to train with them ?

[LoneTiger108]

Frankly, I'm surprised! I was expecting to be ridiculed for my fascination with the ring, but here I find some good conversations and viewpoints. With regards to decent training advice for this tool, I may just have to pen a book on the subject lol! During my time at the Gwoon, 'tools' or Equipment was my specialized area.

It has been interesting to hear talk of 'flying elbows' and even 'kettle balls' as I too have seen both and can see where you're coming from here. My main observations from the posts is that most talk of using one ring, perhaps intending to insert the hands 'into' and to practice rolling drills and sets like 'tan da' etc. I have also experimented 'plenty' here as there are numerous ideas and methods that fit this tool. I don't want to risk saying that 'all' Wing Chun techiniques can be done with the ring, as I'm sure that there's still a few I haven't tried!

My question is, has anyone used a pair? Maybe the 'meaning' of the ring lies in this question. For example, if I hold a pair I'm 'gripping' the ring in the same way as a kettleballs handle. However, instead of the weight to swing/lift etc I just have a simple ring either extending away from me or wrapped against the elbow.

One of the best 'practicalities' of all tools that are held is their immediate benefit to your 'grip strength' or as I would call it 'Fist Strength'. All I need now is for something to continually test my grip on the ring, so what do I do? I have a trained stick/pole man to attack me with 'interactive' sets and build a stamina drill from there.

Has anyone trained like this?

[donbdc]

I am really impressed! This has been a great discussion no name calling just good honest feed back. It's like we've all been to therapy or more likely the ones that need too haven't shown up yet!:)

[southernkf]

Yeah, imagine that. LOL. Lets keep this thread our little secret. LOL.

The funny thing is we should be able to discuss things and have different points of view. Unfortunately people take things too personal. I can see that the rings don't offer me anything based on my current understanding. Which is why I feel they probably are not really part of Yip Man wing chun training. However, that doesn't mean they aren't useful for other peoples, or that other people have found other great uses. I would love to hear how other people use them. We may disagree as to their usefulness, or whether they are needed. We may actually be able to change our minds. As I said, I am always interested in new approaches. Unfortunately many other people are not.

In any case, good discussion.

[junmo]

" I have a trained stick/pole man to attack me with 'interactive' sets and build a stamina drill from there."


Having been both said stick man and pole man in this drill, from my own experience I can only give it a positive review. Using the rings to defend your self from multiple stick attacks from all angles and ranges at near full speed worked wonders for not only my hand/eye speed co-ordination, footwork/positioning, but your fitnes level in general.

Drilling this over a period of months using all you WC shapes lifted my reactioning time and attrition rates way beyond anything I've done before. Weapons training trains all your actions to go together.

[k gledhill]

I dont want to rain on anyones parade BUT...before you go using tools, you need to know the engine your working on. The SLT is a specific tool for the purpose of elbows and wrists aligned . Once this ability is learned , we incorporate moving our line to face our attack using chum kil. this is simply turning our slt arms in rotation along our line , while turning angles to make it work so our arms dont have to leave the line , unless for gaun , bong ....
then back to elbows in while striking...simple idea.
The rings would simply hang from your arm/elbows, flying around with the energy the arms/elbows created exploding off the line and back in rotation....lin sil di da is mind focus while using the elbow positions in rotation along an invisible [ secret ;)] line ...when you use the rings to 'play' they will develop the wrong energy , making you try to use support force to keep them positioned ...been there saw the redundancy put it back on the bar stool :D
If it helps you understand why not to use it , use it ...

[donbdc]

I think there must be a misunderstanding in how the arms are fed int the ring. I don't see that at all. I would love to put together a short clip and then discuss that. This has been a good forum and these kinds of discussions can be very beneficial in understanding and learning from each other.
I really like the way you described the SLT engine and the need to really understand it and what it teaches.
Have a good one.
Don
PS
Stay off the barstools!

[LoneTiger108]

It's strange that this clip has only recently been added to my Sifu's website, so I thought that you could all be the first to see it! So many crazy memories still exist in my mind and this was a cherished time.

It is a collection of old training days at his hall in North London, and if you wait long enough you will see how we used to use a 'pair' of Rattan Rings as a pre-cursor and complimentary to the knives...

Be honest! let me know what you think!

http://www.junmo.co.uk/

[k gledhill]

Thats not VT, lets establish that :D this is stylized using VT hands and sold as a product by the teacher, self defence using rings that you pick up from a broken bar stool you just broke over a guys head for spilling your beer...thats where the rings came from isnt it ? :D
or does she carry them everywhere ?;)
I like the circle the wagons approach to an circling enemy carrying banners , classic enrollment / movie stuff for shows and demo's , nice one !
Im not sure whats going on at the dummy , but no dummy desreves to be gang attacked
funny video !

[YungChun]

Thats not VT, lets establish that :D this is stylized using VT hands and sold as a product by the teacher, self defence using rings that you pick up from a broken bar stool you just broke over a guys head for spilling your beer...thats where the rings came from isnt it ? :D
or does she carry them everywhere ?;)
I like the circle the wagons approach to an circling enemy carrying banners , classic enrollment / movie stuff for shows and demo's , nice one !
Im not sure whats going on at the dummy , but no dummy desreves to be gang attacked
funny video !

LOL

Give that man another cigar..:D

[LoneTiger108]

Thats not VT, lets establish that :D this is stylized using VT hands and sold as a product by the teacher, self defence using rings that you pick up from a broken bar stool you just broke over a guys head for spilling your beer...thats where the rings came from isnt it ? :D
or does she carry them everywhere ?;)
I like the circle the wagons approach to an circling enemy carrying banners , classic enrollment / movie stuff for shows and demo's , nice one !
Im not sure whats going on at the dummy , but no dummy desreves to be gang attacked
funny video !

Nice to know you found the clip funny lol! And I thought we had a good discussion going on here??!! I can't ell you how many times I've heard the 'thats not Wing Chun' comment before and it saddens me to hear it all again. Open your eyes...

A Wong Shun Leung student too! I thought you guys really knew your stuff! Maybe you should chat with some UK guys before we go any further!

[k gledhill]

If others have said the same ....Vt is easy to copy on the surface, the chinese call it skin & hair style....search for the bones, walk on......Im only saying what I see, I lived in the UK for 15 years I know whats there.;)

[LoneTiger108]

If others have said the same ....Vt is easy to copy on the surface, the chinese call it skin & hair style....search for the bones, walk on......Im only saying what I see, I lived in the UK for 15 years I know whats there.;)

That's exactly my point, you 'say what you see', maybe without really knowing what you're looking 'at' let alone 'for'. It's a common misconception by many Wing Chun students when they view another branch, but honestly, I'd have to ask if you met or trained with any of the Lee Shing Family while you were in the UK? Most notably the 'Jun Mo School'?

The depressing thing is that I can see what most people are saying in regards to their family, their training methods and ways etc, but there are very few that can see the similarities in our family. Strange that, as we are all the same in structure. After all, we have our forms and weaponry just like everyone else.

Perhaps its more like I can see you, but you can't see me (yet). I hope to be able to discuss these issues k, as I work with a WSL Student every day and it has taken a while for us to understand eachother too! I have a huge amount of respect for his family as I do for others.

Shame you don't feel any respect in this way...

[donbdc]

I liked it> I have never seen anything like it before. IT reminded me more of the bagua deer horn knives than anything else. Looks like fun. Thanks for having the guts to post a video!

Keep it up
Don

[southernkf]

It's strange that this clip has only recently been added to my Sifu's website, so I thought that you could all be the first to see it! So many crazy memories still exist in my mind and this was a cherished time.

It is a collection of old training days at his hall in North London, and if you wait long enough you will see how we used to use a 'pair' of Rattan Rings as a pre-cursor and complimentary to the knives...

Be honest! let me know what you think!

http://www.junmo.co.uk/

Hi LoneTiger108,

Thanks for sharing. I saw a little of the ring near the end where it is used against the pole, I have never seen any wing chun use it like that before. Usually it is used as a training aid rather than a weapon when demo'd. Of course I don't have the ring in my training so perhaps that is only what I saw. LOL.

As for that usage of the ring, it wouldn't be very benifical in the wing chun I do. We take a different approach in our training which dictates we would have to apply the rings differently than what was shown here. My concern if I used them would be the lack of control on the round surface.

In any case, please don't infer that I am judging the rings you guys do, that isn't my intent. Rather I am just relating them to my wing chun. It was cool to see your usage of the rings as well as other stuff. I don't recall Lee Shing as well as I ought to. He is from the Yip Man line, right? Could you elaborate on his background? I found the usage of the rings, flags, and dummy to be interesting and different from other wing chun people. I am just currious about those methods and how they relate to Yip Man.

[k gledhill]

That's exactly my point, you 'say what you see', maybe without really knowing what you're looking 'at' let alone 'for'. It's a common misconception by many Wing Chun students when they view another branch, but honestly, I'd have to ask if you met or trained with any of the Lee Shing Family while you were in the UK? Most notably the 'Jun Mo School'?

The depressing thing is that I can see what most people are saying in regards to their family, their training methods and ways etc, but there are very few that can see the similarities in our family. Strange that, as we are all the same in structure. After all, we have our forms and weaponry just like everyone else.

Perhaps its more like I can see you, but you can't see me (yet). I hope to be able to discuss these issues k, as I work with a WSL Student every day and it has taken a while for us to understand eachother too! I have a huge amount of respect for his family as I do for others.

Shame you don't feel any respect in this way...


its a reality you will face one day, i wouldnt tell the emperor he was wearing clothes either ;)...maybe I am giving you more respect than you realise right now....a few years on maybe ...?? walk on p.s I know the lee shing family stuff very well....

[Nick Forrer]

Nice to know you found the clip funny lol! And I thought we had a good discussion going on here??!! I can't ell you how many times I've heard the 'thats not Wing Chun' comment before and it saddens me to hear it all again. Open your eyes...

A Wong Shun Leung student too! I thought you guys really knew your stuff! Maybe you should chat with some UK guys before we go any further!

You asked for honest feedback...why complain when its not to your liking? Demo looked silly to me too. Then again there maybe is, as you protest, more to it than meets the eye but we can only go off whats shown. Perhaps you can explain the tag team dummy for instance. And yes I do have plenty of experience with lee shing family WCK.

[LoneTiger108]

It was cool to see your usage of the rings as well as other stuff. I don't recall Lee Shing as well as I ought to. He is from the Yip Man line, right? Could you elaborate on his background? I found the usage of the rings, flags, and dummy to be interesting and different from other wing chun people. I am just currious about those methods and how they relate to Yip Man.

I selected your post to quote from southernkf as I see similar questions from other users here. In answer to your question, yes Lee Shing was the European Representative of the Yip Man Martial Art Athletic Association, hand selected by Yip Man himself. He arrived in London in 1956 and pretty much taught Wing Chun here until he died in 1991. For a thorough look into his background, I would always recommend Uncle Joseph Lee's site:

http://www.josephleewingchun.com/LeeShing.jsp

I'm not sure I understand the next point though, as to how all this stuff relates to Yip Man. Obviously we are connected to him, but I can't say that Lee Shing was his 'student', but more like an 'old friend', as Lee shing was formerly not really aligned to any 'one sifu'. He was a collector of Martial knowledge, had been since a child, so he passed through everybody at the time and finalized his studies with Yip Man before leaving Hong Kong.

Other comments have asked questions like 'explain the tag team dummy' and even comparing us to the Wild West lol! I hope everybody doesn't think I'm 'complaining' about having these comments, because I'm not. I am just bored of hearing them! I think I should also mention that my Sifu established his Jun Mo School back in 1978, and has never really stopped training people. He has had many generations go through his hands and has adjusted training to suit the requirements of the time. This doesn't mean its not Wing Chun does it? Has nobody been attacked by three WC students at once? (who have been trained in strategy!)

We also opened The Millennium Dome (turned out to be a political disaster I know, but the night was superb!) with a 30 strong Flag Troupe and were selected by the Queen herself to 'stand guard' around the Royal Box! This resulted in us entering Buckingham Palace grounds for her Golden Jubilee, so it's not as if Lee Shing isn't known in the UK! But again, I'm now taking the thread off its subject lol!

The Rattan Ring is a 'unique' tool, linking with 'Cha'an Buddhism' and has an extensive Military History (it is a shield). The perfect compliment to the stick actually (straight line/circular line) and should not be underestimated just because you have never used one before or can not even hold one. In my later years it also doubled up as a casing for my knives. This may explain why we do what we do, as I was trained as a 'cultural student', following the tradition of my only Wing Chun teacher...

[southernkf]

Hi,

Thanks for the info. You answered my question about Yip Man relation just fine. I didn't know Yip Man sent people as representatives to different places, or even one. It is interesting to piece together different parts of his life. Where did Lee Shing collect his wing chun from if Yip Man wasn't really his teacher? I'll check out that web site and maybe that will answer some questions.

I peaked at the other thread about Lee Shing (which I'll read later cause it probably answers all my questions) and found he taught Alan Lamb. I was wondering why Lee Shing's name was so familar, but I couldn't place it.

As for the ring, I am not sure how others view it, but I don't dismiss it. Perhaps I under estimate it cause I don't have any real knowledge of it's use. Is it soley used as a weapon or is it also used as a training aid? Other people tend to out their hands inside of it and do technqiues. It seems to provide some resistance or a bit of training wheels for them. And did the weapon portion actually come through Yip Man or another form of wing chun? It is interestesting as I havn't seen it. The closest I can think of is some of those circular blades with pointy things used in some styles and found in magazines.

Anyways, thanks for the info

[LoneTiger108]

In light of a previous discussion I was having on another thread, I thought that this topic could do with more input from people who have actually used a rattan ring in their training.

Anyone?

[donbdc]

Anything in particular about the rings. I used them today w/ a student. We did loy and ngoy kwan sau as well as gahnjom w/ Chau mah foot work. Then we did the same drill on the dummy. It was very useful in developing body unity.

[k gledhill]

we dont fight in those shapes you mention, just drills , fighting isnt kwan sau etc....fantasy , did i say that ? :D think about it, why fight 1 arm with your 2 in kwan...why stand in front of someone, recieve them wih 2arms like chisao AND turn away only to turn back and hit them ...fantasy based chi-sao bs ... my god I sound like dale! :D
you have to able to fight people who can fight er, really well aarghh !! i sound like T must resist...:D

[donbdc]

You don't fight in Kwan sau? So if some one pulls your arm yoe wouldn't bower their power and Tan w/ the other hand to block a punch. Its a great technique for a pull punch response. I don't think you understand it.

[UKBBC]

the gahn-jam sau is a useful trap for a telegraphed round kick

[k gledhill]

classic case of trying to use training shapes to fight with as chi-sao drills have us believe....
first let me say there is no limit, you can do whatever you want anytime .....BUT we dont use these shapes like you say simply because its redundant to the idea behind the shapes....we dont turn away from the attack to use force etc...we dont give 2 extended arms ....why use 2 against 1...I know exactly what your attemting to use....but do you know what Im trying to explain.....stylized cr&p.....I used to think like that too, me froggy too , not mr knowitall ....

Chisao isnt how we fight ....dont fall into the rolling 2 arms a guy comes at you then do KWAN SAO !! it only works because your both doing a drill that is set up for random , mutual exchanges to eitherside of your body....it isnt to do kwan sao....common error. we dont do kwan sao to the dummy either...its en passant to a rotation leading into and out of the 'photo' opportunity that Kwan sao has become....:D like attacking by sticking ferociously , kwan is just as deadly ;) I sound more like dale & T every post...try kwan on Dale one day I dare you ;) you'll be human origami quicker than you can say kwa!...achk!:D...tap, tap, tap

[donbdc]

Kwan sao Is useful depending on the situation. If the situation presents I will use it on anyone. But it is not a phot op. Believe me, I am not going to leave it there for even a brief moment!

[k gledhill]

Using kwan sao by its very direction is WRONG ...its pointing at arms attacking arms turning away from the target...its using 2 arms to fight one ...what else can i say ...origami :D if your attacked you had better start firing on all cyliders faster and with impact that hurts , not doing kwan sao ...its already lost a beat the other guys attacking you and your still defending ...are you still infront of the attack ? are you flanking and doing a 2arm response to 1 arm if so WHY !? thats giving the other guy the edge ...but hey if it floats your boat...:D aye aye capt'n

[donbdc]

"Yin and Yang must be understood", is one of our proverbs. The whole idea w/ Kwun sau is one shoulder goes backwards(Yin) while the other goes Fwds(Yang), thereby borrowing his power to punch or block.
Would you use a Tan Da they go in the same direction. Again you are pivoting w/ these techniques and dear god not holding them out there to get you picture taken! But to absorb pressure and apply pressure at the same time. That is wing chun!
Why are they in the forms if your not suppose to use them?
How do you open your stance in each form? Is part of the hoy sik Kwan sau?
I wonder why? I wonder why it is in all of the forms if it is not useful or important.

[k gledhill]

wrong thinking altogether...there is no borrowing bs, sorry, common fallacy. we attack not borrow forces doing ying & yang....tansao never leaves the cenrterline, its a training position not a fighting action, we punch using the by products tan develops ...the whole idea of using one arm to stick and borrow is redundant ....implies positioning to make it work that will get you 'pretzeled' :D

[donbdc]

Well Bud we practice 2 different forms of wing chun. And I'll leave it at that
Have a good one

[k gledhill]

tan/jum sao dont leave the center line ...the line moves to make them function....what is that function ?

[LoneTiger108]

we dont fight in those shapes you mention, just drills , fighting isnt kwan sau etc....fantasy , did i say that ? :D think about it, why fight 1 arm with your 2 in kwan...why stand in front of someone, recieve them wih 2arms like chisao AND turn away only to turn back and hit them ...fantasy based chi-sao bs ... my god I sound like dale! :D
you have to able to fight people who can fight er, really well aarghh !! i sound like T must resist...:D

For the first time you show yourself as a total Wing Chun amateur k! OMG!! I think you really should seek guidance from your Sifu if you think Quan Sau is 'just a drill' thats not used in fighting... hilarious!

[YungChun]

Using kwan sao by its very direction is WRONG ...its pointing at arms attacking arms turning away from the target...its using 2 arms to fight one ...what else can i say ...origami :D if your attacked you had better start firing on all cyliders faster and with impact that hurts , not doing kwan sao ...its already lost a beat the other guys attacking you and your still defending ...are you still infront of the attack ? are you flanking and doing a 2arm response to 1 arm if so WHY !? thats giving the other guy the edge ...but hey if it floats your boat...:D aye aye capt'n
If the kwan is as much an attack.. The tan is still the tan.. you can still hit them with it... maybe you needed low coverage when stepping in to bash their face..no need to stop there.. :D

[donbdc]

If tan never leaves the centerline, when you chau ma Tan Da whay line is the da on. Are your tan and fist on the same line, kind of a tight fit?

[LoneTiger108]

Remember the title of this thread!?

I know we will all have issues with 'what's what' and I am learning about 'who's who' too, but why we can't stay on subject here is beyond me. Even I had to respond to k_gledhills claims lol! But its all really nothing to do with the thread!

So, either share your thoughts on the subject matter at hand, or start another thread like 'Tan Sau is always here, not there' type thing... sheesh!

[donbdc]

Sorry Lone Tiger,
Chasing rabbits. I will discuss w/ K on other thread.

[k gledhill]

your right we should be discussing the rattan rings :rolleyes::D

[k gledhill]

For the first time you show yourself as a total Wing Chun amateur k! OMG!! I think you really should seek guidance from your Sifu if you think Quan Sau is 'just a drill' thats not used in fighting... hilarious!

He was the one who told me it was chi-sao BS ;)

but hey your a CHISAO WARRIOR, YEAH BABY ! :D attack by sticking ferociously ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Chisao Warrior? If you say so my friend lol! :eek:

And your Sifu is? Phillip Bayer or Wong Shun Leung?

And finally, was you told this before or after you actually learnt/practised Chi Sau? It makes a difference... ;)

[k gledhill]

Chisao Warrior? If you say so my friend lol! :eek:

And your Sifu is? Phillip Bayer or Wong Shun Leung?

And finally, was you told this before or after you actually learnt/practised Chi Sau? It makes a difference... ;)


I have no sifu , I am ronin....your deluding yourself, a lot of chi-sao is actually redundant in freefighting..but you knew that ;)

[LoneTiger108]

I have no sifu , I am ronin....your deluding yourself, a lot of chi-sao is actually redundant in freefighting..but you knew that ;)

Deluding myself? No.

And now it's only 'a lot' of chi sau which is redundant in freefighting, I suppose that's better than saying it's 'useless' for fighting.

I find it strange that you attach yourself to Sifu Bayer and WSL if you're Ronin, surely you must've learnt from WSL, I can only presume. Still, didn't answer my question though, but thats okay, let's get back to the thread...

THE RATTAN RINGS! If they're just another tool to assist in development, why are they so rare in Wing Chun yet seen in other systems?

Does anyone have any ideas as to their purpose?

[k gledhill]

worry about yourself lone tiger :D mincing words is no arguement ...kwan sao :D useless
much of chi sao redundant ...care to tell us what is redundant ? rings ? you still dont get it do you ?

[LoneTiger108]

Obviously not k. I don't get where you're coming from, but at least I'm trying to understand others.

Still, only so much I can give if you still don't even answer the simplest questions...

[k gledhill]

End of conversation. Have good one.;)

[LoneTiger108]

I hope you also have a good day, or two, k! Only wishing for conversation here, but you always tend to show lack of respect for anything outside of your own ideas.

Do you actually 'know' how to use the rattan ring/s as a tool to assist in drilling signature postures, like Quan Sau? As that is what Quan Sau is, among others, just a familiar signature posture which is commonly seen throughout the Wing Chun Family. There are more of course, but if Quan Sau is so easily dismissed, it makes sense why you sound like you have lost your way...

[k gledhill]

drilling signature postures, like Quan Sau? ...just saying that tells me you dont have a clue...just a pose fighter aka stylized bs...have a nice day :cool:

[LoneTiger108]

And your post indicates that you have never drilled!

Do you know what I mean by 'Doi Lien'? Well, it doesn't matter, as I actually can't be bothered to explain its significance to someone who can not seem to understand the basic principles of fighting...