shaolin monk in chicago? question for gene

[oasis]

just curious about what looks like a newcomer to the area: Shi Yan Ju

http://chicagoshaolintemple.org/home

any info about him would be appreciated. thanks

[Immortal_Dragon]

Havent heard of him personally. There is a name same as his refrenced at Shi Guolin's school here (http://www.shaolin-overseas.org/event.html). Read under the September 2006 entry...but from what I understand monks can have the same name and be two different people.

[LFJ]

he's under shi yongxin. you should know what that means.

he's likely a wushu performer and knows nothing about buddhism, chan nor otherwise (or traditional gongfu), but likely has a back-up of a pureland monk with him to cover that spiritual image. so it makes a whole martial-buddhist tradition.

thats the way shi yongxin's work is done. take one apple (wushu guy) and one pear (pureland monk) and pass it off as one orange (traditional gongfu & chan buddhism).

[LFJ]

it says he's one of yongxin's top ten disciples. great! and also:

"Master Shi Yan Ju is a master of QiGong, Internal QiGong, Iron Shirt, Iron Crotch, 72 QinNa, and 108 Hand Strikes. He has traveled with the China Shaolin Temple Abbot, Shi Yong Xin, to visit over 20 countries to spread the name of Shaolin Kung fu."

spread the name! thats all. spread the name and rake in the dough.

my advice: go there and kick him in the crotch to see if he's legit.

[Shaolindynasty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-tfKCnQoRA

I've seen the young monk who is the main teacher perform twice both times nothing martial but allot of acrobatics.

BTW, oasis haven't seen you around lately, what happened?

[LFJ]

... as one should have expected. lol

[Royal Dragon]

I've seen the young monk who is the main teacher perform twice both times nothing martial but allot of acrobatics.

Reply]
From that clip, looks ike standard Shaolin gymnastics. There really was not much there that my daughter does not do as play everytime she finds a little free space to move.

However, Shaolin has allways put the *Flash* first in demos and in recruitment efforts. Because of that, we really do not know what this guy is made of untill we see his students compete.

[GeneChing]

Check out our latest issue, the Nov/Dec 007 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48258). The article The Gold Mountain Monks: 38 Shaolin Immigrants to the San Francisco Bay Area By Chen Xinghua and Gigi Oh profiles the 38 monks in our area alone. This is a mix of people, some authorized by Yongxin, some not, some wushu, some traditional, one strictly wenseng - there's no pattern. I can't even keep track of them all. I only keep track of the ones in my face and the ones I've training with myself. If this is my own 'hood, there's no way I can keep track of what's happening in Chicago. Each one is different and if you read it very closely, it's very telling about the state of recent Shaolin immigrants. Never make snap judgments about what is real or fake when it comes to modern Shaolin because you'll often wind up looking like a fool. One myth I'd like to dispel is that the Shaolin immigrants are making a ton of money. A few of them are doing ok, but most of them are struggling just like any other school owner. It's not like saying your a Shaolin monk lets you sit back on your laurel/lotus leaves and coast. Especially in our area, many of the monks are living pretty humbly. This article touches on the living standards of some of our Gold Mountain monks (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=758577&postcount=60). It's part two of this article (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=758578&postcount=59).

[Shaolindynasty]

Shaolin has allways put the *Flash* first in demos and in recruitment efforts. Because of that, we really do not know what this guy is made of untill we see his students compete.


Except one of the "performances" I saw was while visiting his school. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying he can't do anything martial. he just hasn't shown anything martial yet.

[Royal Dragon]

he just hasn't shown anything martial yet.

Reply]
That was my point.

[LFJ]

my question about all these new guys under yongxin (if they are traditional) is where did they learn their gongfu? who is their teacher? obviously not one of the old traditional monks. they are yongxin's people and he couldnt have taught them. all i've ever seen from them is modern wushu- and maybe a couple traditional forms.

basically, as i've seen, for yongxin to pass off the image of a buddhist and martial arts tradition he hires wushu performers who dont know buddhism and pureland monks who dont know martial arts. its not traditional gongfu or chan, but who knows? it still looks like martial arts and buddhism together.

a perfect example is that old temple in germany and all the guys there. one guy even said he's interested in the buddha's life and all that, but for now he wants to focus on wushu and maybe later learn about buddhism (and he's a buddhist monk?). while another monk there was the "scriptual teacher". and he had the incense burns likely from his previous pureland ordination.

[Immortal_Dragon]

Except one of the "performances" I saw was while visiting his school. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying he can't do anything martial. he just hasn't shown anything martial yet.

Shaolin Wushu has always been "flashy" for performances. That's just the way it is in the public forum. After all not everyone who attends these peformances are die hard martial artists. Some just want to experience the culture or see what they have always read about. For others, like you and me, who practice martial arts we expect to see more. However, the pitfall most people fall in is they think these monks do not know actual martial art fighting skills. These monks are very skilled in Chin na, form applications, etc. If you doubt it go see one in person.


my question about all these new guys under yongxin (if they are traditional) is where did they learn their gongfu? who is their teacher? obviously not one of the old traditional monks. they are yongxin's people and he couldnt have taught them. all i've ever seen from them is modern wushu- and maybe a couple traditional forms.

basically, as i've seen, for yongxin to pass off the image of a buddhist and martial arts tradition he hires wushu performers who dont know buddhism and pureland monks who dont know martial arts. its not traditional gongfu or chan, but who knows? it still looks like martial arts and buddhism together.

a perfect example is that old temple in germany and all the guys there. one guy even said he's interested in the buddha's life and all that, but for now he wants to focus on wushu and maybe later learn about buddhism (and he's a buddhist monk?). while another monk there was the "scriptual teacher". and he had the incense burns likely from his previous pureland ordination.

LFJ, you been around the forums long enough to know the answers to these questions. There is so much information floating around out there about modern shaolin. The way it is now basically the Shaolin Temple is more of a martial arts institution and not so much a "monastary". Most of the "monks" that go to Shaolin these days are doing so for the martial arts. Buddhism is of course taught there because Shaolin has always been symbolic with Buddhism. A lot of the monks are quite young and at that early in life who is really concerned with religion? It's usually not until you beome older does religion really comes to mind for some. Again, don't fall into the "it's all wushu" pit. I can't stress this enough, the only downfall of Shaolin will be the behavior of some of its "masters".

[GeneChing]

...it's been a work in progress since its inception. If you accept the basic tenet that all things are impermanent, this makes a lot of sense. I'd agree that the first crop of monks that emerged under Yongxin's abbacy were mostly wushu monks or Buddhist implants. But Yongxin has moved on from that. He's cultivated more traditional practitioners within his cadre recently. Perhaps they too have become more accepting of him since they realize they can't get around him. I've seen some of the newer people that Yongxin is sending forth, and while many of the performing monks are still flashy wushu stars, several have been quite traditional.

Just when you think you get Shaolin pinned down, it gets away from you. ;)

[LFJ]

LFJ, you been around the forums long enough to know the answers to these questions. There is so much information floating around out there about modern shaolin.

the question was if yongxin's people are doing traditional gongfu, then where is that coming from? who teaches them? i dont see that answer around here.


The way it is now basically the Shaolin Temple is more of a martial arts institution and not so much a "monastary".

i would beg to differ. there are older traditional masters living in the temple now, master shi deyang is an example. it is still very much a monastery. yongxin and those wushu people have just been using it. but it is still very much a monastery to those monks who continue the real tradition. its just quiet right now.

also, as shi deyang said each monk must learn buddhism. they can choose to learn gongfu or not. but if they do gongfu they must learn buddhism first and then they can train at the same time as studying. but then we had yongxin's wushu guy in germany talking about he only wants to do wushu and maybe learn about buddhism later. its obviously fake and has nothing to do with the real shaolin temple and tradition.

thats my point. the real tradition is there living in the temple underneath it all. what we see with the wushu guys and pureland monks is not shaolin's tradition. but every lotus flower that blossoms must come up through the muddy water. one day again, the real tradition will emerge. but for now, its quiet. not dormant or dead. just quiet.


Again, don't fall into the "it's all wushu" pit. I can't stress this enough, the only downfall of Shaolin will be the behavior of some of its "masters".

what i'm saying is all i've seen from yongxin's people is modern wushu. and the question is if some of them are doing traditional, then where is it coming from? the traditional masters who are knowledgeable in gongfu and chan dont hang with yongxin. thats why he hired the wushu guys and the pureland monks in the first place. he had no one to back up the image of either gongfu or buddhism.


He's cultivated more traditional practitioners within his cadre recently.

traditional gongfu practitioners? if thats the case, then my question stands. how does he do that? who is teaching them? i've seen the old overweight monks doing what appears to be traditional. but its highly marked. it seems like they've taken their modern versions of xiaohongquan the wushu guys were doing and tried to make it look "ancient" by doing it very "internally". it fools a lot of people.

i've never seen the old pre-yongxin traditional monks do the forms that way. so, no wonder one would ask where its coming from. my assumption is "crafted for the image". just like the wushu/pureland thing was crafted for the gongfu/buddhism image. now he just wants the martial arts to seem more "ancient", now that the modern wushu has caught your eye, and others know what it is.

its not too difficult to pin the tail on this donkey. :)

[GeneChing]

...and by that I mean they are both part and parcel of Shaolin Temple. Deyang, along with many other traditional Shaolin monks, have yet to leave the temple in protest of Yongxin. Yongxin can and will tap these inner temple monks and their students to perform at Shaolin events. I've seen Deyang himself performing at a Shaolin Demo that Yongxin was presiding over. It's not hard for the abbot to take one of Deyang's students and adopt him as a disciple. I don't know that this has happened for sure yet, but Deyang has several thousand students at his Dengfeng school and Deyang is not the only traditional monk still residing at Shaolin. There are others. Yongxin isn't stupid. A stupid person could never become abbot of Shaolin Temple. A stupid person might become president of the United States, but it takes extreme political savvy to take abbacy at Shaolin under communist rule. Yongxin hears the criticisms leveled against him and he makes adjustments.

[Immortal_Dragon]

the question was if yongxin's people are doing traditional gongfu, then where is that coming from? who teaches them? i dont see that answer around here.

LFJ, the answer plain and simple is that you will not find that.....and there are no texts or written documented lineages for Shaolin Temple . This is why modern Shaolin comes under scrutiny today. There are old temple monks that have been "seeded" around Shaolin each with their very own school turning out hundreds of students. There is just too many to keep a paper trail on. Names and places have literally gone up in smoke during Shaolin Temple's somewhat unstable history too. From my experience a lot seem to go by verbal lineage more than written over there.



i would beg to differ. there are older traditional masters living in the temple now, master shi deyang is an example. it is still very much a monastery. yongxin and those wushu people have just been using it. but it is still very much a monastery to those monks who continue the real tradition. its just quiet right now.

also, as shi deyang said each monk must learn buddhism. they can choose to learn gongfu or not. but if they do gongfu they must learn buddhism first and then they can train at the same time as studying. but then we had yongxin's wushu guy in germany talking about he only wants to do wushu and maybe learn about buddhism later. its obviously fake and has nothing to do with the real shaolin temple and tradition.

thats my point. the real tradition is there living in the temple underneath it all. what we see with the wushu guys and pureland monks is not shaolin's tradition. but every lotus flower that blossoms must come up through the muddy water. one day again, the real tradition will emerge. but for now, its quiet. not dormant or dead. just quiet.

Shi Deyang is correct. Monks who live and train at Shaolin must learn Buddhism while they are there. Thats the tradition. It kind of reminds me of Sunday school or a religious private school. It goes by the saying if you attend a private religious school then you must be basically educated in the religion whatever it may be so long as you are attending. Now once you move away or leave well then what you do is your choice. A young monk in Germany isn't going to learn the in and outs of Buddhism because he is more interested in wushu. Is that attitude the "ideal image" of a shaolin monk?, probaby not but I think that view point is common. It also does not rubber stamp him as being fake for believing that either. I think of "ex-monk" Li Peng when this is discussed. I read in one of his interviews where he said if he wanted to be a religious monk he would goto Thailand, Taiwan or some other location where straight Buddhist monasteries exist.

I understand what you are trying to say but the answer(s) are just complex and not simple. You ask a good question though.

[GeneChing]

There actually are some Shaolin lineages that have been preserved, but there's no master list. Deqian's Encyclopedia has a cursory lineage, but there are two major confounding factors with this. One is that some monks shift from being a monk to not being a monk. This is true for many Buddhist lineages. That means some one can be a monk for a short period - like many of the performance monks (or biaoyanseng). Does that grant them bragging rights? The other factor is that a genuine monk might leave the monastery and take civilian students outside the temple. These folk masters then bear 'authentic' Shaolin kung fu, perhaps without the Chan, perhaps with, and might be called back into the temple to teach young initiates. The notion of a paper trail is absurd within a Chan context. It's not about who has the title or who was who's teacher at all. It's about who has the dharma. For us, largely the uninitiated, dharma is an elusive thing (although arguably, it's a elusive for the initiated as well). Originally there is not a single thing. Where can dust alight?

[Shaolindynasty]

If you doubt it go see one in person

I did. I visited the chicago shaolin temple.

BTW, I am not critisizing anyone with my comments. I said they haven't shown anything martial. I never said they can't do anything martial.

[Immortal_Dragon]

I did. I visited the chicago shaolin temple.

BTW, I am not critisizing anyone with my comments. I said they haven't shown anything martial. I never said they can't do anything martial.

So that conclusion was based on one visit? I can see how you came to that. If I am understanding what you mean by "martial". I didn't see your comment as criticizing...just made me wonder what you thought wasn't martial. I think it takes more than a few visits to learn the "martial" side. Trust me I have personally seen people walk in some of these shaolin schools, watch the 18 basic warm ups, drills and forms, and turn around walk out and claim it wasn't shaolin....left me wondering what they thought was shaolin.

[Shaolindynasty]

So that conclusion was based on one visit?

I never drew any conclusion.


just made me wonder what you thought wasn't martial

Gymnastics. Skill? yes. Martial? no. Note: I am not reffering to modern wushu with this statement.


I think it takes more than a few visits to learn the "martial" side

Maybe it takes more than a few visits to "learn" it but to see evidence of martial practice is different. They have that evidence for instance on their flyers and class schedule there is talk of sanda and self defense. I simply haven't seen any of that demonstraited so I can't comment on it.

I only like to comment on things I either witness or experince first hand. So, that being the case, I can only comment on the "non-martial" exhibitions of their skills they've given.

Yet,
Just like I'm not going to assume a lack of martial(or fighting) skills, I am not going to assume they possess said skills:D

[Immortal_Dragon]

I only like to comment on things I either witness or experince first hand. So, that being the case, I can only comment on the "non-martial" exhibitions of their skills they've given.

Yet,
Just like I'm not going to assume a lack of martial(or fighting) skills, I am not going to assume they possess said skills

Agreed on the first part. I am kind of reading that you are taking a neutral stance on the issue. I am assuming since you said you visited Shi Yan Ju's that you observed a typical shaolin class. Arrived, saw the warm ups which could be considered "acrobatic", did some stretching drills, then came 18 basic postures, maybe a rest in between, depending on which day you went you probably saw them practicing some forms or some other specific activity, and the last thing was the final "amitoufo bow"...class ends. Kind of sort of right here or am I way off?

Can you share exactly what you saw at the Chicago school? Was Shi Yan Ju there and were you able to ask some questions? Is there anything that is preventing you from not taking a neutral stance? Just curious :)

[richard sloan]

It's not hard for the abbot to take one of Deyang's students and adopt him as a disciple. I don't know that this has happened for sure yet, but Deyang has several thousand students at his Dengfeng school and Deyang is not the only traditional monk still residing at Shaolin.

this has definitely happened. I don't remember the names, mainly because they switched into a new lineage with new names- which upset some people but what can you do- some of De Yang's people have shifted under SYX's wing so to speak I'm sure his line is not the only one.

a few years back there was some...complaint is the wrong word, let's say discussion, about all the pureland that was creeping in amongst some of the more ch'an people...now it seems that has started to percolate a little more, and it will be curious to see how that gets adjusted.

[GeneChing]

...that Shaolin is a work in progress. It's been so since it's inception. Many martial critics have based their opinions upon Shaolin a few years ago, or worse, on something some one else said about Shaolin a few years ago. But anyone who's actually been to Shaolin knows that it has completely changed since then and continues to change. That's part of what makes it so exciting. It's constantly changing. It ebbs and flows like the tide. So the people making snap judgments about what's happening at Shaolin - like the stereotypic 'it's all fake wushu monks' - are akin to the fool saying there are never tide pools based on observations made at high tide. Additionally, Shaolin is huge. It's hard to get your mind around 40,000 practitioners in a small mountain city. Do you really think that 40,000 practitioners can live together in that small pond and never fight?

[LFJ]

immortal_dragon:

you quoted me a few posts back, but those were not my words it seems. i think you've got the wrong man. and my view on the chicago guy is only an educated guess.


Deyang, along with many other traditional Shaolin monks, have yet to leave the temple in protest of Yongxin.

i wouldnt say it like that. deyang has not left because shaolin temple is his home! he is not staying there in protest. i would not say he is in any sort of protest at all.


I've seen Deyang himself performing at a Shaolin Demo that Yongxin was presiding over.

deyang acknowledges yongxin as the abbot, as he is. not to say that he is on level terms with him when it comes to certain directions. but he does not disrespect him. he is there to spread peace and shaolin culture as his duty.


but Deyang has several thousand students at his Dengfeng school

that may have been some time back, but since my last visit a few months ago there were only a couple hundred maybe, or fewer. unless the rest of them are all hiding somewhere else. but they arent at the school.

perhaps yongxin has already taken most of his students? :(

[GeneChing]

I didn't say that Deyang was staying in the temple in protest. I said the converse. Or is that the contrapositive? I always forget. My point is that while a lot of people vilify the abbot, there are still senior traditional monks residing within Shaolin Temple. Whether they agree with Yongxin or not is not the issue. Like you say, they acknowledge that he is the abbot and work with him.

Sorry to here Deyang's enrollment has dropped. He took a big hit after the relocation, but things seemed to be improving. His school is still at the southeast corner of Dengfeng, is it?

[LFJ]

i've found it common for some of those who "defend" masters like shi deyang to fabricate some sort of grudge he has with yongxin, which in my experience of him is not the case at all. that grudge is one those "defenders" have in their own hearts and just project that onto shi deyang and others. he's a completely free man, as far as i can sense.

as for his school, he's had the same for a while now at the enterence of the city. but the facilities are not too pleasing to the foreigner. especially those who are just getting used to the hole-in-the-ground "toilet" of china. his school has more of a ditch that gets cleaned out once a week. :D

i heard a story from one of the foreign students who had a real bonding moment with one of the coaches squatting next to each other there, when after the chinese isnt understood the coach pulls out a bowl of noodles and offers it to the guy while taking care of their business there together. lol

fun times! but on a less stinky note, shi deyang's students in italy have had a "coming soon" website for shi deyang's dengfeng school and have now got it up now after a year. www.shideyang.com

master deyang will be in italy over the christmas vacation for a few weeks, at which time he'll give his input on what he would like to have on the website. so check back for updates within the coming months!

peace! :)

[GeneChing]

A lot of people project their agenda on Deyang since he's so prominent internationally. It's a shame because he's a very complex person with his own opinions that seldom get heard. I haven't seen him personally in some time.

The last chance I got to interview him myself was for our 2004 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=500), see Shaolin Here and Now: Senior Monk Shi Deyang Contemplates the Mystery of Shaolin Zen. Back then, Deyang was very outspoken about not giving foreigners preferential treatment (re: making them crap in the PRC outhouse trenches). Personally, as a card-holding member of the Shaolin laowai club, I like the preferential treatment. ;) I've done my time dealing with Shaolin potty issues (see the chapter Shaolin Disciple Xinghung in my Shaolin Trips Episode 3 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=522) e-zine article). My own master, Shi Decheng, just opened a separate school, just for foreigners. I can hardly wait to visit it.

In our latest Shaolin special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729) (which I've nicknamed 2007B (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48258)), Walter Gjergja compiled an article The Teachings of Shi Deyang based on his extensive interviews while hosting him in Europe.

[LFJ]

i've really got to trace back and find some of the older articles with shi deyang. its always so interesting when he opens up. he has a lot of other talents as well. but he's been in a lot of european magazines too. it would be almost impossible to look it all up.

in fact, that article by walter was published some time ago in a european magazine. he has that on his italian school website. he's also one of the guys running the website for deyang.

i have heard about shi decheng's new place for foreigners. unfortunately last time i went he wasnt in china until my last day so i skipped it. left it for next time. after all that training it is nice to have a decent place to sleep and good food to eat. i cant say i dont miss the american comforts when in china. not really culture shock. just that i like to have something to sit on when i'm in the restroom. :)

[GeneChing]

When I first went there in '95, life was pretty harsh. It's gotten better each year. We have some pics of Decheng's new foreigners hall in Shaolin 2007B. My understanding was that Gjergja's previous publication of that Deyang article was not in English. Is that so?

[LFJ]

i've seen some pictures of the new place posted on russbo and from friends who have gone there. life looks pretty pleasant compared to what i experienced sleeping with rats and sharing meals with spiders, and that ditch... but i have nothing against other forms of life. :)

if i remember correctly i think i saw walters publication in a foreign language european magazine, yet his article was written in english.

[richard sloan]

I am now utterly inspired to chop some scallions, onions, fry some eggs with white rice and toss in some tomatoes!!!

Great going in, and awesome for exporting when training at Shaolin, lol...

You always want to be near the news.

[wutangforever]

Forum

I'm an adult (27) student of Shi Yan Ju's and can speak personally of my experience there. I have always been interested in Kung Fu, but I only recently started learning this summer. Therefore, I am a beginner. I am, however, progressing rather nicely in my own mind, but I do not have a whole lot to compare to other than in comparison to students in the class. The temple opened in July 2007 so they're still working out a lot of the details of how they can best train students. I go 5 days a week and have found it very beneficial to the health of my body and mind in just a short time.

The Chicago Shaolin Temple basically has three different classes. The first is wushu, where we are learning forms like Lohan Fist and Lohan Staff. The classes do begin with the typical jumping, punching, kicking, and stretching routines for warm up. Then we typically work on various small moves and later practice the full routines. I'm not quite caught up on the terminology yet so please let me know if I am mislabeling something. We also sometimes work towards flips and other acrobatic manuevers, although most of us are still too inflexible and/or weak to do these well (or at all.)

The second type of class is Yi Jin Jing / Chi Kung. It is probably what you all picture. Part of the class is also Iron Shirt for those so inclined -- I routinely get hit with bats and sticks and they stand on my stomach to build up my resistance and power. These classes are typically older students (even some in their 60s), but there are a few younger adults like myself.

The third class is San Da, and its basically practicing punching and kicking pads and working on less artful but more self-defense forms. These classes haven't been as popular so they haven't really pushed forward a progressive curriculum yet, or at least from what I have seen / done.

The monk himself is fresh over here from China. He travelled with the Abbot showcasing his Iron Crotch, and was a fellow disciple of the NYC monk Sifu Shi Yan Ming (picture of the two of them in "The Shaolin Workout" p.13).

I've seen videos (and live performances) of the disciple he has with him in Chicago getting sticks broken over various limbs and his back. I've also seen him lay on a bed of nails and have something broken on him while doing it (can't remember if it was stone or wood.) He's also done several intense weapons demonstrations for us after class.

Because I am new at this, I don't entirely know what you on this forum consider real, flashy, commercialized, etc. I don't find the Chicago Temple commercialized or flashy, and in fact there's no english spoken by the instructors (other than a couple words they have learned.) If you have seen Shaolin: Wheel of Life, we've learned some of the forms I've seen done in that.

I'd be very happy to get some responses from my post. I really want to get good at lots of different forms of Kung Fu throughout the rest of my life, and I am passionate about what I have learned so far. I would love to make some friends on here that can help me learn more about this great art.

Thanks,

Ben Johnson

[GeneChing]

Welcome to our Shaolin forum here, Ben. We like to have reps of all the U.S. monks here. Nice of you to step forward.

[wutangforever]

Thanks! I'm excited to have found a heavily used forum. I look forward to learning a lot here.

Ben

[richard sloan]

Amitabha Ben

[LFJ]

i havent been to chicago in some time. i must check it out if i go up that way again. it sounds like the typical shaolin monk school.


The monk himself is fresh over here from China. He travelled with the Abbot showcasing his Iron Crotch, and was a fellow disciple of the NYC monk Sifu Shi Yan Ming (picture of the two of them in "The Shaolin Workout" p.13).

hopefully showcasing his iron crotch to the public like that wont get him arrested and deported!

and hopefully by "fellow disciple" that doesnt mean shi yanming is really yongxin's disciple! lol, the generations fit. and the plot thickens..... :D

seriously though, i have that book at home. must flip to p.13 when i get back.

peace!

[Immortal_Dragon]

Forum

I'm an adult (27) student of Shi Yan Ju's and can speak personally of my experience there. I have always been interested in Kung Fu, but I only recently started learning this summer. Therefore, I am a beginner. I am, however, progressing rather nicely in my own mind, but I do not have a whole lot to compare to other than in comparison to students in the class. The temple opened in July 2007 so they're still working out a lot of the details of how they can best train students. I go 5 days a week and have found it very beneficial to the health of my body and mind in just a short time.

The Chicago Shaolin Temple basically has three different classes. The first is wushu, where we are learning forms like Lohan Fist and Lohan Staff. The classes do begin with the typical jumping, punching, kicking, and stretching routines for warm up. Then we typically work on various small moves and later practice the full routines. I'm not quite caught up on the terminology yet so please let me know if I am mislabeling something. We also sometimes work towards flips and other acrobatic manuevers, although most of us are still too inflexible and/or weak to do these well (or at all.)

The second type of class is Yi Jin Jing / Chi Kung. It is probably what you all picture. Part of the class is also Iron Shirt for those so inclined -- I routinely get hit with bats and sticks and they stand on my stomach to build up my resistance and power. These classes are typically older students (even some in their 60s), but there are a few younger adults like myself.

The third class is San Da, and its basically practicing punching and kicking pads and working on less artful but more self-defense forms. These classes haven't been as popular so they haven't really pushed forward a progressive curriculum yet, or at least from what I have seen / done.

The monk himself is fresh over here from China. He travelled with the Abbot showcasing his Iron Crotch, and was a fellow disciple of the NYC monk Sifu Shi Yan Ming (picture of the two of them in "The Shaolin Workout" p.13).

I've seen videos (and live performances) of the disciple he has with him in Chicago getting sticks broken over various limbs and his back. I've also seen him lay on a bed of nails and have something broken on him while doing it (can't remember if it was stone or wood.) He's also done several intense weapons demonstrations for us after class.

Because I am new at this, I don't entirely know what you on this forum consider real, flashy, commercialized, etc. I don't find the Chicago Temple commercialized or flashy, and in fact there's no english spoken by the instructors (other than a couple words they have learned.) If you have seen Shaolin: Wheel of Life, we've learned some of the forms I've seen done in that.

I'd be very happy to get some responses from my post. I really want to get good at lots of different forms of Kung Fu throughout the rest of my life, and I am passionate about what I have learned so far. I would love to make some friends on here that can help me learn more about this great art.

Thanks,

Ben Johnson

Heh thanks for posting that information. Sounds like a Songshan Shaolin school. Most of them are basically set up and ran the same way like you posted. Your post kind of reminded me of my first days of shaolin training. Welcome to the forums and beware of the forum trolls that show up from time to time. :D

[wutangforever]

Heh thanks for posting that information. Sounds like a Songshan Shaolin school. Most of them are basically set up and ran the same way like you posted. Your post kind of reminded me of my first days of shaolin training. Welcome to the forums and beware of the forum trolls that show up from time to time. :D

Thanks. I look forward to learning a lot here, especially since its hard for me to learn the non-physical parts of kung fu from the monk because he only speaks chinese.

[wutangforever]

I asked the disciple and he said it is a Songshan Shaolin School. This is what I've learned so far:

Ba Duan Jin
Lohan Quan
Luin Huan Quan
Lohan Arlo Quan (lohan second form)

Should be learning Xiao Hong Quan and Tom Bi Quan soon once I prove good enough in the above forms.

[SIFU RON]

Welcome Wutangforever,

I am happy I dropped by this spot and found you, the more I explore this forum ,the more I like it.

You are learning at a special place, by excellant Sifu's. I have read many great things about the Monks.

My best to you,

Sifu Ron

[wutangforever]

Thanks Sifu Ron! I definitely realize what a great opportunity my training is... there are times when it is just me, Sifu and his disciple!

I'm really glad I found this forum too.

Ben

[Royal Dragon]

Hello!!

I have a question, does your teacher teach the 3 roads of Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

The first road is pretty common, and I wouldn't mind getting some review on it, but I am looking for the 2nd and 3rd roads.

What about Lao Hong Chuan, and the 6 road Da Hong Chuan?

[wutangforever]

I'm not sure. I believe if you want to learn it, they will teach you. Last night I started learning Xiao Hong Chuan.

Ben




Hello!!

I have a question, does your teacher teach the 3 roads of Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

The first road is pretty common, and I wouldn't mind getting some review on it, but I am looking for the 2nd and 3rd roads.

What about Lao Hong Chuan, and the 6 road Da Hong Chuan?

[zhangxihuan]

i love how idiotic people are when it comes to shaolin, shaolin-wushu, and wushu in general.. get a clue.

lots of wushu people train traditional too, but lets face it - if you see someone do a demo shaolin-wushu is going to look a heck of a lot cooler and attract more people than if you just do a traditional style shaolin form- its that simple. I dont blame the monks for doing demos or other things with "wushuized" moves or whatever you want to call it.. Also- if you have never even tried wushu don't go bashing them- lots of those "performers" train the movements 1,000 times more than a traditionalist in the USA would...

[jimmy78]

What are the address and phone number of the Chicago Shaolin Temple? The website is incomplete (or my firewall/antispam/adblock is preventing me from seeing it).

[wutangforever]

Can't remember the phone number off hand, but the address is 2990 S. ARCHER AVE, Chicago, IL. (close to 30th and Archer)

[nuxia]

Hi! This is Yan Ju- taught for years with Guo Lin at STOH in NY. He taught chi na and also 18 Lohan (Grappling Techniques) there. He was the head guy in Manhattan and then came and taught in Queens.

I actually think to learn chi na or grappling from Yan Ju is an opportunity. I wasn't able to take his grappling class... and then he left before teaching another one. I was seriously bummed.

I must say that I am in no way endorsing his lifestyle (whether he is a "real monk" or not) or even if he is a good guy. But he knows how to lock up a joint or break a neck. Actually, I would not advise letting him demo chi na on you.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

Hi! This is Yan Ju- taught for years with Guo Lin at STOH in NY. He taught chi na and also 18 Lohan (Grappling Techniques) there. He was the head guy in Manhattan and then came and taught in Queens.

I actually think to learn chi na or grappling from Yan Ju is an opportunity. I wasn't able to take his grappling class... and then he left before teaching another one. I was seriously bummed.

I must say that I am in no way endorsing his lifestyle (whether he is a "real monk" or not) or even if he is a good guy. But he knows how to lock up a joint or break a neck. Actually, I would not advise letting him demo chi na on you.

wait i am confused...so u are yan ju??
........why do u refer to ur self as first person and third person.....im so confused......

[wutangforever]

I don't think the poster is Yan Ju... he was speaking of his experience with Yan Ju. Yes, his first sentence was confusing ;-)

[quddha]

I think it is very hard to define what "REAL" shaolin is. Everyone has their own definition about what is Shaolin.

If they are teaching what they teach in China at Shaolin schools, (a combination of traditional Shaolin Forms, modern wushu, San Da, and more) then *to me* I would consider that real Shaolin. You could probably debate this with me, but so what?

Try approaching one of these guys who have trained daily for many years in China and tell them that they aren't doing "REAL" Shaolin? Personally, as someone who has only practiced part-time over the past decade and have only been to China once, I don't think I have the authority to pass that judgement. I have made many friends from these young monks, and sure they may be different from the older generation, but they have put just as much Gong Fu into their art.

I like to think progressively, and acknowledge that Shaolin evolves. Modern wushu takes just as much Gong Fu as traditional wushu. Talking about practicality, I've never been in a fight once in my life, and I don't ever plan to. But I've done hundreds of demos, so for me, the flashy stuff his probably more practical.

I don't see how the introduction of modern wushu into Shaolin is different than the introduction of any other style into Shaolin. That's the way Shaolin has always been, a centre that collected the great martial art styles of China and makes them its own.

[quddha]

One myth I'd like to dispel is that the Shaolin immigrants are making a ton of money. A few of them are doing ok, but most of them are struggling just like any other school owner. It's not like saying your a Shaolin monk lets you sit back on your laurel/lotus leaves and coast. Especially in our area, many of the monks are living pretty humbly.

Yes that's a huge myth. My Shaolin coach lives at the school and has to work a second job doing manual labour. People assume these guys can make easy money from their Shaolin name, (scamming people, taking their money and teaching them fake Shaolin) but it's totally untrue. They teach what they learned to the best of their ability.

They're just happy to be here in North America. Still make more money than being a Shaolin coach in China.

[oasis]

i met up with wutangforever a few weeks ago. turned out to be an old friend from college although we hadn't spoken in about 6 years lol! the funny part is i recently moved right across the street from him. since i used to study songshan shaolin a few years ago (in new orleans) we compared some of our material. his lian huan quan and ba duan jian were just slightly varied from the versions i had learned. his school teaches xiao and da hong quan but not sure how many roads (regarding royal dragon's question).

are you enjoying xiao hong quan? that was always a fun one.

[wutangforever]

Yah, Xiao Hong Quan has been fun, although I think I'm only about 20 moves into the 65...

We started learning another one that is more of a combination of all of them, but I didn't catch the name... will try to find out tomorrow.

[nuxia]

Sry for the misunderstanding, I am NOT Yan Ju, just knew him at STOH in ny... this is the website for the school where Yan Ju used to teach, btw:

www.shaolin-overseas.org

[onehawaiian]

onehawaiian will be in chicago in february for a gathering of our societies.
it would be cool to drop in and check u guys out.

[Citong Shifu]

[QUOTE=wutangforever;817286]Thanks Sifu Ron! I definitely realize what a great opportunity my training is... there are times when it is just me, Sifu and his disciple!

I'm really glad I found this forum too.


The Chicago Shaolin Temple's website has no school address or contact info. Would you be so kind to provide me with this info, please.

Thanks
cs

[wutangforever]

2990 S. ARCHER AVE
Chicago, IL 60608
(773) 847- 4689

Hope to see you there some day!

[Shaolindynasty]

Wutangforever- Are you guys gonna be out for chinese new year?

[wutangforever]

What do you mean by that... like at the celebrations? If you do mean that, I assume so, but I'm not sure... you?

[Shaolindynasty]

I mean is your school going to do the parade etc.?

[wutangforever]

I'm not sure. If I hear anything I'll let you know.

[Shaolindynasty]

Just wondering cause I heard the CCBA got a new president so things might be different this year.

[mkriii]

So from what I am get from reading all these posts about these so called monks doing more wu shu than traditional Shaolin is that they have no fighting ability. Why is that? Because they do wu shu or because they have not had much training in fighting? If you say because they do wu shu you might want to take a closer look at what they are doing and rethink a little bit. Yes, wu shu is a lot of acrobatical stuff but wu shu is kung fu to the extreme. All this means is that each move is exaggerated meaning that your stances are lower, your kicks are faster and more snap in them, your hand strikes are faster and more snap in them, and of course you have to throw in the acrobatics. It's kung fu with a flash. The forms they do have actual application to them when you take the flips, arials, and butterfly twists out of them. Go to youtube and watch carefully any wu shu form and you will see actual traditional kung fu techniques in them when you over look the acrobatic "fluff".

[Shaolindynasty]

To many "shaolin" exponents are to attached to the idea of "orginal forms" and "preserving" them. Very un-buddhist thinking

Also I thought the idea of Shaolin Kung fu was the same as chan (or zen) meditation. that being the case fighting is secondary anyway, right?

Again I am not saying they can't fight.

[wutangforever]

These monks specifically do more traditional stuff with a couple more wushu-ish forms that aren't even that flashy...

I agree that all the different types can be applied... and people need to respect that they all take hard work, long training hours, etc...

Thanks for the post!

[Shaolindynasty]

Most of the negative comments about shaolin monks come from people who precieve them as some kind of threat.

[Shaolindynasty]

Wutangforever- Saw your sifu at a chinese resturaunt grand opening northwest of chinatown on new years. They did a martial arts demo and buddhist ceromoney for the resturaunt. It was impressive especiallt since it was fifteen degrees out and he was doing filps on wet icy/slushy ground with nothing but one of those "half robes" on. BBbbbbbrrrrrrr:eek:

I did my demo with a coat, hat and layers of cloths on and was still numb from the cold. Chicago winters suck.

[wutangforever]

Awesome! I heard he went to some "party" or something, and that must have been it.

Cheers,

Ben

[wutangforever]

Figured I would post an update. I've really enjoyed learning there, and the other students seem to love it as well. They're having trouble recruiting more students, but their business/advertising tactics aren't the best ;-)

Anyways, I've now learned Luin Huin Quan, two forms of Lohan Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, Lohan Gun, Tamo Jian, Ba Duan Jin, some Yi Jin Jing, and half of Quay Ding Quan (no idea if the spelling is right, something like national standard form.) I started doing some Qin Na but they practically rip my arm off when they demo the next manuever we'll be doing.

I'm in much better shape and am a lot more flexible than when I started here last summer. The sifu and his disciple have learned a little bit more english but having fellow students that speak both mandarin and english really helps me.

I don't know if Yan Ju was actually a diciple of the abbot as he seems to be about his same age. I think they're going to try to bring over some more monks this summer to both help teach and do some demonstrations. If I get any notice of this I'll post it here.

We did a performance the other day in Chinatown and the younger monk/disciple did an awesome drunken sword form along with a lot of acrobatics and some breaking sticks demonstrations.

Shaolindynasty said he saw some perfromances and was impressed what he saw. I met up with Oasis and Lamassu and they respect what I've been learning. I think my progress is also quite past a typical beginner with only 6 months of experience...maybe it is because we don't have a lot of students so I can practice a lot?

Thanks for reading!

Ben

[sha0lin1]

Figured I would post an update. I've really enjoyed learning there, and the other students seem to love it as well. They're having trouble recruiting more students, but their business/advertising tactics aren't the best ;-)

Anyways, I've now learned Luin Huin Quan, two forms of Lohan Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, Lohan Gun, Tamo Jian, Ba Duan Jin, some Yi Jin Jing, and half of Quay Ding Quan (no idea if the spelling is right, something like national standard form.) I started doing some Qin Na but they practically rip my arm off when they demo the next manuever we'll be doing.

I'm in much better shape and am a lot more flexible than when I started here last summer. The sifu and his disciple have learned a little bit more english but having fellow students that speak both mandarin and english really helps me.

I don't know if Yan Ju was actually a diciple of the abbot as he seems to be about his same age. I think they're going to try to bring over some more monks this summer to both help teach and do some demonstrations. If I get any notice of this I'll post it here.

We did a performance the other day in Chinatown and the younger monk/disciple did an awesome drunken sword form along with a lot of acrobatics and some breaking sticks demonstrations.

Shaolindynasty said he saw some perfromances and was impressed what he saw. I met up with Oasis and Lamassu and they respect what I've been learning. I think my progress is also quite past a typical beginner with only 6 months of experience...maybe it is because we don't have a lot of students so I can practice a lot?

Thanks for reading!

Ben


Thought I would correct your spelling. It's Lian Huan Quan and Guay Ding Quan. The rest was right on. Impressive for only 6 months. Most of our students only learn one or two forms within that time frame. Say hello to Lamassu for me, we were Shaolin-Do brothers before I defected to the Shaolin Temple.

[LFJ]

sha0lin1-

thought i would correct your spelling. its guidingquan. :)

wutangforever-

the website says he is one of the top 10 disciples of shi yongxin. and age has nothing to do with being someone's disciple. its just about transmission.

[wutangforever]

Thanks for the spelling corrections! And yes, I forgot their material does specify that he was a disciple of yongxin.

Ben

[Pk_StyLeZ]

sha0lin1-

thought i would correct your spelling. its guidingquan. :)



lol ya...i thought it was GUI ding too.....i was gonan correct it..but u got to it first
woot woot

that sure is a lot of form learned within a short period of time..i remember when i first trained wit de shan and xing hao....in one year period..all i was learned...wu bu chang....lin huan chang....and shao hung chang......and yin shou gun....4 forms in 1 year....man it was like boring!!! hahaha but it was rewarding to only concentrate on a little form at once...helped build my foundation so much

[wutangforever]

Yes, they've taught me a lot and are willing to teach me more if I ask. Having said that, we don't just learn the steps and move on...we practice all the forms often and we know that we still have a lot of work left to perfect them.

[LFJ]

i'm not really a fan of accumulating forms myself. i mean, knowledge is knowledge and you can always add to it. but that may leave little time to turn it into wisdom or practical skill.

xiaohongquan is enough to be busy with your whole life, like the "four noble truths". its extremely simple, yet so dense!

but nowadays, shaolin wushu is not taught or learned for fighting. so unlike past masters who specialized in one form or so, you can learn many forms and its no problem. you dont need to go so deep. you will just train sanda.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

i'm not really a fan of accumulating forms myself. i mean, knowledge is knowledge and you can always add to it. but that may leave little time to turn it into wisdom or practical skill.

xiaohongquan is enough to be busy with your whole life, like the "four noble truths". its extremely simple, yet so dense!

but nowadays, shaolin wushu is not taught or learned for fighting. so unlike past masters who specialized in one form or so, you can learn many forms and its no problem. you dont need to go so deep. you will just train sanda.

well its good to learn other forms....just to know and understand there is other types of movement out there..but yeah..i beleive one should *specialize* in one form and master that form for sure.....
\

[Shaolindynasty]

4 forms in 1 year....man it was like boring!!!

LOL, you guys are so spoiled:p

I learned 1 form in the last year and a half.

[sha0lin1]

sha0lin1-

thought i would correct your spelling. its guidingquan. :)

wutangforever-

the website says he is one of the top 10 disciples of shi yongxin. and age has nothing to do with being someone's disciple. its just about transmission.

Thanks LFJ, I have been mispelling that for a long time now.

[mkriii]

Anyways, I've now learned Luin Huin Quan, two forms of Lohan Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, Lohan Gun, Tamo Jian, Ba Duan Jin, some Yi Jin Jing, and half of Quay Ding Quan (no idea if the spelling is right, something like national standard form.) I started doing some Qin Na but they practically rip my arm off when they demo the next manuever we'll be doing.


Thanks for reading!

Ben

Thats a heck of a lot of forms to have learned in a six month period. Keep that up and you will surpass Grandmaster Sin The's record of over 600+ forms he claims to have mastered. At my school we learn 7 empty hand forms and 3 weapon forms for black sash plus the other stuff. But 10 forms total. Its not about quantity, its about quality and how well you can do them.

[wutangforever]

Yes, I agree with the quality aspect. I've got a long way to go in just mastering the first form I learned.

Ben

[onehawaiian]

i was in chi-town from the 20th to the 27th, what an awesome city!
i regret not being able to check out other martial arts schools, but on my next trip back to chicago i will def do so...