The demise of TMA

[Minghequan]

I recently began to wonder as to the future of traditional Martial arts. Frankly speaking, it appears dismal.

One only need look to our popular culture and the many MA magazines which now are filled with RBSD.

Vewry few promote the TMA from a practical and or even cultural basis. Many Traditional schools are unable or unwilling to change with the times. The situation in China is that Modern Wushu is all the go and it seems the same in Japan and Okinawa where baseball seems more popular!

I would argue that three factors representing a great threat to the preservation of traditional fightings arts (yes that's what they truly are). The first is modern trends away from the cultural and philosophical aspects of the TMA and their inherent practical applications as witnessed in our media. The second is ignorance. Most people could not tell Kung-Fu from Chinese folk dancing. Martial artists worldwide perpetuate this myth by promoting images that have nothing to do with the real arts. The last is even more insidious, the con-men and fakes that trouble all arts.


More to come ......

[Minghequan]

Part of the reason I see for the general demise of the TMA and in particular Chinese Martial Arts is that most of the traditional martial artists themselves remain (largely by choice) cocooned from the mainstream martial arts world.

Some like myself, are attempting to open up a once closed door art, showcasing its benefits and hopefully contributing in some small way to its survival into the future.

As for practicality, I cannot speak for other arts but I think some would be very surprised at the applications of some of the TMA, they are not as impractical as some would believe and in fact have a lot in common with RBSD! My particular art has an element of change inherent within. To the traditional Chinese martial artist and art the element of change and creativity is an important one as they believe that the art is dead without it.

[Minghequan]

I cannot speak for Karatedo in all its forms as I'm no longer involved in that world but Chinese martial arts are my passion and the path I have decided to walk upon.

As stated earlier most Traditional Chinese Martial Arts (and I mean Traditional in the very sense of the word) have an element of change built within. The mentality of the arts is creative. The mentality of learning is to feel and gain the essence of the art. It is this "essence: that is important and that which must be understood , not setting the art into concrete but letting the essence of the art grow a, change with the needs of society and grow. The art is creative. After one has learnt and practiced for a long time. then one should blend the art with one's own ideas to make the art even greater.

The art is alive an creative. To Chinese philosophy if an art is not creative, then that art is dead.

Returning the thread to its original point, the traditional arts are currently in decline, most of the true traditional teachers of the arts remain cocooned from the current martial arts world by either a matter of choice, tradition or cultural considerations. This is especially true of my own art of White Crane Gongfu/Wushu. It is only via my efforts to bring my master's art "out" into the world that the art may survive, adapt and hopefully grow.

Otherwise, the arts will die out and then what will we be left with?

RSBD and CQB are part of the unique thing we call martial arts. What makes me wince is that some of the practitioners of these arts wear traditional Dogi and Obi or Traditional Kung-Fu dress and sashes, call there "art" by some Asian inspired name yet claim to have no link to the art form they are imitating in their promotion of the art they teach. We have all seen these types grace the pages of our favourite magazines. This adds further to the denigration of the true traditional essence of the traditional arts.

My question is, what can be done to ensure the survival and growth of the traditional arts?

[WinterPalm]

In the West, generally speaking, people want what they want now and they want to pay exactly for what they expect and no less.
Couple this with endemic ADD, practically the norm at this point, and you've got a series of dying arts where very few aspire to the notions espoused in the depth these arts may or may not offer.

Good kung fu is good kung fu regardless...scrapping in the street is still scrapping in the street. The popular venues for sport fighting may change, but people still stab rob like any other century!

[TenTigers]

I predict a LKFMDC vs Minghequan debate in the making.....
so I'm jus gonna kick back in the LaZboy with some Orville Reddenbacher's lite and maybe a nice cold Tsingtao and wait...

[rogue]

I recently began to wonder as to the future of traditional Martial arts. Frankly speaking, it appears dismal.

Let's hope the end is quick and somewhat painless. That way we can all move on.

[TenTigers]

rogue fires the first salvo...

[BlueTravesty]

Part of the reason I see for the general demise of the TMA and in particular Chinese Martial Arts is that most of the traditional martial artists themselves remain (largely by choice) cocooned from the mainstream martial arts world.

Some like myself, are attempting to open up a once closed door art, showcasing its benefits and hopefully contributing in some small way to its survival into the future.

As for practicality, I cannot speak for other arts but I think some would be very surprised at the applications of some of the TMA, they are not as impractical as some would believe and in fact have a lot in common with RBSD! My particular art has an element of change inherent within. To the traditional Chinese martial artist and art the element of change and creativity is an important one as they believe that the art is dead without it.

Good stuff. Awesome post. Nothing to add (except to speculate about what TCMA would be like today if the Nanjing Guoshu Institute was able to continue its work in the Martial arts at the pace it did before the Revolution.)

[Immortal_Dragon]

I recently began to wonder as to the future of traditional Martial arts. Frankly speaking, it appears dismal.

One only need look to our popular culture and the many MA magazines which now are filled with RBSD.

Vewry few promote the TMA from a practical and or even cultural basis. Many Traditional schools are unable or unwilling to change with the times. The situation in China is that Modern Wushu is all the go and it seems the same in Japan and Okinawa where baseball seems more popular!

I would argue that three factors representing a great threat to the preservation of traditional fightings arts (yes that's what they truly are). The first is modern trends away from the cultural and philosophical aspects of the TMA and their inherent practical applications as witnessed in our media. The second is ignorance. Most people could not tell Kung-Fu from Chinese folk dancing. Martial artists worldwide perpetuate this myth by promoting images that have nothing to do with the real arts. The last is even more insidious, the con-men and fakes that trouble all arts.


More to come ......

Yes!! Kudos!! I thought I was the only one who felt this way. TMA is rapidly fading in the name of commercialism and yes the mighty beast of MMA. Tradition is on the way out seems. No one seems to care. Even Tae Kwon Do has fallen to a "Olympic sport". Wushu is next it seems

[street_fighter]

well, a few more of these threads and TMA might just lose me forever. that will be a great loss. the sky isn't falling yet! jesus christ does anyone even train anymore, or do they just come on here to b1tch about their MA?

sorry, i need a break from this forum. see you in a year or so.

[bawang]

well, a few more of these threads and TMA might just lose me forever. that will be a great loss. the sky isn't falling yet! jesus christ does anyone even train anymore, or do they just come on here to b1tch about their MA?

sorry, i need a break from this forum. see you in a year or so.

Look in the mirror. tapping school tables and think you're doing steel fist gong, recommend a fraud ninja school in a city 1000 km from where you live, now suddenly change face and do MMA. Look in yourself. i hope you will find what you look for. we both started around same time, but now look at you. i spit your face.
lose faith in TMA by reading a forum, i doubt you ever did any serious training.

[johnnycache]

Yes!! Kudos!! I thought I was the only one who felt this way. TMA is rapidly fading in the name of commercialism and yes the mighty beast of MMA. Tradition is on the way out seems. No one seems to care. Even Tae Kwon Do has fallen to a "Olympic sport". Wushu is next it seems

Tae Kwon Do and Wushu as we know them barely have 150 years of history between them - how can their traditions be on the way out?

[Tai-Lik]

I started a list of names and schools that teach what I consider TMA and I stopped around 100 when I recognized that the list would be very long and I didn’t feel like typing so much. However, it struck me that the future of TMA wasn’t as dismal as some people would like you to believe. The only thing that seems dismal is the uncontrollable growth of McKwoons, McDojos, and self-proclaimed Masters, who create made up styles or learn only from DVD’s and books. For everyone 1 authentic TMA there seems to be 10 McDojos.

With so many different styles of martial arts that exist today, TMA will continue to exist. We’ve all seen how the popularity of styles change every few decades. Authentic TMA schools can use the criticism, growth of McKwoons, and trendy styles to their advantage. TMA schools can offer the same benefits as any popular style of martial arts today. The niche will then be the other aspects of traditional martial arts that attracted so many westerners to it back in the day. With so many things to offer, TMA schools have to remember that in today’s western society, conditioning for health and training to defend yourself with practical techniques are at that forefront in the minds of many students todays.

Ten Tigers wrote:

There will always be schools who like to wear karate kid headbands,patches,so many colored belts so it looks like Walt Disney threw up, and cater to the David Carradine wannabes. There will also ALWAYS be schools that train hard, fight hard, and will not compromise. This is how it has always been, this is how it shall always be.

good point.

[B-Rad]

It's much easier for me to find traditional Chinese martial arts now than it was just 10 years ago... maybe because of the internet, but all it takes is for one good teacher to produce two good teachers, and he's spread his art. More schools seem to pop up every year, and as contemporary wushu has gotten further away from it's traditional roots, I've even seen some quality teachers coming out of the woodwork in mainland China, and immigrating somewhere with more political freedom.

[B-Rad]

And I think people forget that the old masters had their own fair share of quacks during their time too. Not everyone in the old days was running around fighting for their lives, and they did have their fair share of qigong/martial arts cults trying to summon spirits or other such nonsense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Traditional Combat arts ( I feel that I need to make that HUGE distinction) are alive and well.

[lkfmdc]

I started a list of names and schools that teach what I consider TMA and I stopped around 100


Of those 100, how many have students that do any sort of full contact fighting or alive competition? Not point sparring, not continuous point sparring, not sparring in their school, but real actual testing of their skills in an open envirionment?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of those 100, how many have students that do any sort of full contact fighting or alive competition? Not point sparring, not continuous point sparring, not sparring in their school, but real actual testing of their skills in an open envirionment?

That would depend on the school wouldn't it?

[lkfmdc]

That would depend on the school wouldn't it?

If you want to define "keeping alive" people teaching the techniques, forms and theories, TCMA is fine, there are TONS of schools out there, more than ever before, styles that in the 1970's we didn't even know existed. I know schools that over the years the sifu have revealed more and more of the contents of the tradition

But to me, if you can't fight with it, it all amounts to a hill of beans. Having run all Chinese tournaments in the past, having promoted San Shou/San Da since 1994, being involved in the fight community (san da, MMA, Muay Thai, etc) I can tell you for a fact that 95% (if not more) of the CMA based schools in this country are not doing anything remotely looking like "fighting"

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you want to define "keeping alive" people teaching the techniques, forms and theories, TCMA is fine, there are TONS of schools out there, more than ever before, styles that in the 1970's we didn't even know existed. I know schools that over the years the sifu have revealed more and more of the contents of the tradition

But to me, if you can't fight with it, it all amounts to a hill of beans. Having run all Chinese tournaments in the past, having promoted San Shou/San Da since 1994, being involved in the fight community (san da, MMA, Muay Thai, etc) I can tell you for a fact that 95% (if not more) of the CMA based schools in this country are not doing anything remotely looking like "fighting"

I agree with you, but do we blame the TMA or do we blame the practioners (teacher and students alike) ?
I am all for blaming the people that do the deed, not the deed it self.
We can say that the vast majority of Karate schools suck at fighting and that most couldn't punch their way out of a wet burrito, but on the same token, we all know at least on school, from any system you choose, who's practioner CAN fight.
And yet, its the same system, only trained differently.

We can't blame system, its like saying algebra sucks because the majority can't use it.

[lkfmdc]

I agree with you, but do we blame the TMA or do we blame the practioners (teacher and students alike) ?



You can't separate the two so easily.

If people were training the way the "older generation" trained around 100 years ago (and up to around '49 on the mainland) they'd be, GASP :eek:, training a lot more like a MMA person does

Some people think that if you are doing the technique, it is Chinese martial art even if you aren't wearing silk PJ's, aren't doing forms, aren't doing weapons, aren't using Chinese terms, and don'g lion dance

But the VAST MAJORITY clings to "tradition" and calls those guys heretics....

We've said it before, but what has been built up as "tradition" and which is embraced now by these people really has very little to do with reality

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed.

I think its a case of selective interpretation in regards to tradition.
All MA have a tradition of fighting and most are aware of this, heck I am sure everyone that practices any system has been told the stories of the fightign legends of the past.
So why focus on the non-combative part of the traditions and not the combative parts?
Because most people are a bunch of pussies that confused "fighting as a last resort" with no fighting at all.

[lkfmdc]

I think its a case of selective interpretation in regards to tradition.



Ah, but the 24 million dollar question is WHY this has evolved?

Shuai Jiao people ALL "wrestle", they have a competition format that is inherent in their method. And many of them cross over into Judo and submission wrestling contests to try out what they do

As much as I hate push hands, you have a certain segment of the Tai Chi community that actually does competition. William CC Chen of course comes to mind. Darn, isn't it funny that the Tai Chi people are more competitive than the "hard styles" :eek:




everyone that practices any system has been told the stories of the fightign legends of the past.
So why focus on the non-combative part of the traditions and not the combative parts?



People have been sold a bag without openning it... they've been swindled and con'ed

People think that if there was a great fighter in the tradition, it must be a great fighting art and so if they do it, they must be fighters....

Lama Pai had Wong Yan-Lam, arguably the most visible fighting figure in recent TCMA history.... public challenges that were recorded in newspapers.

CTS was a certified badass, his wallet read "bad m-f-er"

Guess what? Out of the THOUSANDS of students he had in both the US and back in China, the ones that had even a semblance of fighting ability was small....

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, even our buddy Miyagi (the karate kid one) who was against fighting not only could, but did !

When do you think this started? with the influx of kids into the MA or before that?

[Tai-Lik]

LKFMDC wrote:


Of those 100, how many have students that do any sort of full contact fighting or alive competition? Not point sparring, not continuous point sparring, not sparring in their school, but real actual testing of their skills in an open envirionment?

LKFMDC, how are you?:)

If this is how you measure a martial artist, then no comment is necessary.;)
Although, being that you are a full contact promoter, i can understand why you would bring this up. :D

All this rhetoric and prejudice against ALL TCMA is ridiculous.

Peace LKFMDC

[lkfmdc]

If this is how you measure a martial artist, then no comment is necessary.



And what do YOU think TCMA should be all about then?

Do you think the masters of old wanted their students to be ballet dancers :rolleyes:

Hate to break it to you, again, but MARTIAL ARTS are about fighting. If they weren't then they'd be chi kung, or yoga, or pilates....




Although, being that you are a full contact promoter



And YOU are a promoter of an all forms and point sparring tournament :rolleyes:

Let's also remind everyone that when someone asked you why you don't have any full contact in your tournament you freaked out :rolleyes:

If you're just going to focus on looking pretty and not worry about fighting, you should do modern wushu

[Tai-Lik]

And what do YOU think TCMA should be all about then?

Do you think the masters of old wanted their students to be ballet dancers :rolleyes:

Hate to break it to you, again, but MARTIAL ARTS are about fighting. If they weren't then they'd be chi kung, or yoga, or pilates....



And YOU are a promoter of an all forms and point sparring tournament :rolleyes:

Let's also remind everyone that when someone asked you why you don't have any full contact in your tournament you freaked out :rolleyes:

If you're just going to focus on looking pretty and not worry about fighting, you should do modern wushu

LOL:D

Dave your right as always and your the greatest. :D

so now can we move on?;)

Peace LKFMDC

Tailik:


.....TMA schools have to remember that in today’s western society, conditioning for health and training to defend yourself with practical techniques are at that forefront in the minds of many students todays.

[golden arhat]

LOL:D

Dave your right as always and your the greatest. :D

so now can we move on?;)

Peace LKFMDC

Tailik:

dude you didnt answer his points at all !

[lkfmdc]

LOL:D

Dave your right as always and your the greatest. :D

so now can we move on?;)

Peace LKFMDC

Tailik:

If you are unwilling and unABLE to engage in a conversation, why do you bother logging on to a discussion forum :rolleyes:

Do you think Jow Biu or Jow Lung considered themselves fighters?

Dean Chin certainly was all for full contact, he took a team to Taiwan to compete...

Why don't you do full contact at your tournament?

[lkfmdc]

While Tai-Lik ponders what his own tradition is really about.....

And what do people think TCMA should be all about?
Do you think the masters of old wanted their students to be ballet dancers?

[Sal Canzonieri]

People have been saying this for a few thousand years.

So what.

Get off your chair and practice and train.

Go fight someone and test yourself.

It isn't the TCMA that is being tested, its your skills and your wits.
This is valid for TCMA, TJMA, TKMA, any TMA from any country, and for MMA.

How crappy you are or how great you are is not a reflection of the style, it is a reflection of your how efficient and effective your training is, and how you much you have tested yourself and learned from it.

People are called masters because they have mastered something, they put the time and effort into testing themselves and their material.

For sure, most people complaining, not all, have not mastered anything, or had the time to try.

[lkfmdc]

The obvious observation and point is that most TCMA schools aren't fielding fighters of any sort...

a place dedicated to San Da will have between 4 and 12 people getting ready to compete at any given time

Shuai Jiao students all "wrestle", many do stuff like judo also

a BJJ school will have it's students competing in BJJ tournaments

anyplace doing MMA has students competing

why is it when a TCMA school goes to a tournament, it's students do forms and not fighting?

you aren't saying that TCMA isn't about fighting are you? Seems you're saying the opposite, so then, why doesn't that ethic manifest itself in practice?

[GeneChing]

I hear the 'tradition is dying' argument all over this forum. Do you know where else I hear it? Historical references, some that date back centuries. When people complain that frauds are killing TMA, they are echoing what has already happened before. Hasn't anyone done research on this? Just considered what it must have been like for our ancestors attempting to preserve their tradition during the rise of the firearm. That's a thrilling part of martial history. Fakes arose left and right as military skills evolved into sport. They did made it obviously, or it wouldn't have reached the people that we all call masters today. So now, if you say 'tradition is dying', the only person to blame is yourself. What you're really saying is 'my tradition is dying because I'm too lame to pass it from my master to my juniors'. There have always been fake masters. There always will be fake masters. We've had fake masters for centuries. Can we learn to deal with fake masters already?

As for the other point 'real TMA is only about fighting', I agree and disagree. It depends how you define 'fighting.' If you define 'fighting' by street and ring fights, I disagree. Sure, that's important, but not the only fight. If you define 'fights' to include those personal challenges - disease, age, rehab and finding balance - then I'll agree. There was this guy I used to work out with - grossly overweight, diabetic, lives a horrible lifestyle - through his practice he's fighting just to reach a normal state of health. He was getting there, slowly, but after years of practice, he was still not very skilled. He had no real striking power and would crumple if hit with the slightest impact. But he was there, practicing regularly, and for him, kung fu was his redemption. It was his only shot at being healthy. For many, that's the ultimate battle. Inevitably, as we all grow older, we'll all face this. I lost track of that guy so I couldn't tell you if he made it or not. TMA has always provided for people like him. It's surely saved more lives with this application than through actual street self defense.

That all being said, from my odd post on the martial world, I see the traditional arts rising. There's more fakes for sure, but there's more traditional too. The bottom line is that there's more of everything. Martial culture had been growing steadily on all fronts. I truly believe that the future looks very bright for traditional martial arts right now. I just hope all you 'tradition is dying' folks don't delay that growth from all your bellyaching.

:D

[TenTigers]

I can play volleyball, I can play chess,I can play guitar, and I can fight.
I can't play at the level of the Nike Beach Volleyball team.
I can't play as good as Bobby Fischer.
I can play guitar, but I'm no Joe Satriani
I can fight, but I'm no Chuck Liddel
so, evidently, I'm worthless.
But ya know what?
I have a decent serve, good set-ups, and the occaisional spike, and I have fun at picnics.
I enjoy setting up my strategies, and the focus and concentration that comes with being "in the game."
I get out and play in blues jams, and can pretty much wail if I get in a good groove. Working on putting out a cd and putting the band back together perhaps to tour locally.
I've defended myself when neccesary, and did a pretty good job of it. My students have done the same. I can hit fast and hard,throw,lock, and grapple, and I'm still learning. It hurts to be thrown again and again (at 50) and I limp into bed-with a smile on my face, cuz I'm having a great time.
So fek yizall:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can play volleyball, I can play chess,I can play guitar, and I can fight.
I can't play at the level of the Nike Beach Volleyball team.
I can't play as good as Bobby Fischer.
I can play guitar, but I'm no Joe Satriani
I can fight, but I'm no Chuck Liddel
so, evidently, I'm worthless.
But ya know what?
I have a decent serve, good set-ups, and the occaisional spike, and I have fun at picnics.
I enjoy setting up my strategies, and the focus and concentration that comes with being "in the game."
I get out and play in blues jams, and can pretty much wail if I get in a good groove. Working on putting out a cd and putting the band back together perhaps to tour locally.
I've defended myself when neccesary, and did a pretty good job of it. My students have done the same. I can hit fast and hard,throw,lock, and grapple, and I'm still learning. It hurts to be thrown again and again (at 50) and I limp into bed-with a smile on my face, cuz I'm having a great time.
So fek yizall:p

Interesting point.

The other day I was boxing and stepped into the ring with a 'kid" that was beginning to train for an up and comming fight, he is ranked #5 in Canada, LH.
He schooled me.
After the first 3 rounds, and while he was not "mine" for the first three, I did, as per his coach, Better than most pros in that gym.
Could I beat him?
Hell no, but its nice to be able to hang in there for a bit.
:D

[lkfmdc]

As for the other point 'real TMA is only about fighting', I agree and disagree. It depends how you define 'fighting.' If you define 'fighting' by street and ring fights, I disagree. Sure, that's important, but not the only fight. If you define 'fights' to include those personal challenges - disease, age, rehab and finding balance - then I'll agree.



OK Gene, I'll bite (I might even photoshop later)....

While TCMA can be used to fight these other "fights" (personal challenges), they are most certaily also for the street, the ring, the cage etc

If we remove the street/ring/cage and just leave the personal challenges, aren't we just doing chi kung, aerobics with a twist, yoga or pilates??

Surely (Shirley), not everyone has to fight on a Lei Tai, but one has to wonder why NO ONE is :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not to play the old ****s card, but full contact COMPETITION is a young mans game and when I was young, boy did I play it and now, as an older individual I am paying the price and reaping some of the rewards still.
That said, I would be concerned why younger people in the combat arts AREN'T fighting as much as they can.

[lkfmdc]

Not to play the old ****s card, but full contact COMPETITION is a young mans game and when I was young, boy did I play it and now, as an older individual I am paying the price and reaping some of the rewards still.
That said, I would be concerned why younger people in the combat arts AREN'T fighting as much as they can.

I'm old, I have numerous injuries, I've survived cancer THREE TIMES, so my competition days are well behind me, even then I was a b-level amateur, but I did something. Today, not all my students fight, but about 10% does (around 20 students ready to fight at any given time)....

TCMA schools are full of young in shape people. They can do astounding forms performances, many are great gymnasts.... surely one or two students in a school could fight full contact, no? :rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

traditional martial arts isnt dead. i read an article saying its already dead, and that we have to promote health, morals, self defense from things other then people (corporations, mcdonalds), and peace. what the guy didnt realize, at least to me, these values are in traditonal martial arts. its just a new form of marketing.

tma will never demise as long as there are good teachers out there promoting the art and always adapting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You'd think so....

Personally I don't get being part of a MA school or gym and NOT fighting, what's the point?

Is there anything as satisfying as kicking someone in the face? or getting hooked in the liver and puking?
I think not !!

[lkfmdc]

Here's a good measure of things

not everyone in my school fights, far from it.... but I DO have fighters here

but MORE IMPORTANTLY the stuff the fighters train, the techniques, the methods, etc the whole rest of the school trains exactly the same (different intensity levels for sure). When they go and watch a student from here fight, they see the same stance, same footwork, same attacks and same defense they are learning and practicing in class....

if not, there is somethng wrong

[Tai-Lik]

dude you didnt answer his points at all !

i thought it was obvious that i was trying to avoid a question by LKFMDC, which would side track the point of this thread into the same old discussions which have beaten to death.

So that it doesn't appear that i can't answer the quesiton or have something to hide, i will gladly answer LKFMDC's question. The anwers is all of the 100.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's a good measure of things

not everyone in my school fights, far from it.... but I DO have fighters here

but MORE IMPORTANTLY the stuff the fighters train, the techniques, the methods, etc the whole rest of the school trains exactly the same (different intensity levels for sure). When they go and watch a student from here fight, they see the same stance, same footwork, same attacks and same defense they are learning and practicing in class....

if not, there is somethng wrong

And I don't see why it would be any different anywhere else.
Fighters comprise a small percentage of the people that train in most gyms, more so nowadays ( aside ones that cater just to pro fighters).
The training and sparring should eb the same, heck a pro doesn't even go balls-to-the-walls every time, only ups the intensity when training for a fight, so they pretty much train and spar like everyone else, to a degree.

[lkfmdc]

i thought it was obvious that i was trying to avoid a questions by LKFMDC



it was embarassingly obvious, just like your ducking the issue of your own art

Do you think Jow Biu and Jow Lung considered themselves fighters?

Why did Dean Chin think full contact fighting was important enough that he took his students all the way to Taiwan to compete?

Why don't you offer any full contact at your tournament?

[Tai-Lik]

LKFMDC, lets not waste everyone's time or disrespect this forum with your punk a$$ comments:D

if you want to conversate or debate respectfully, i'm all for it. i hate to see good threads and conversation get off track. If you have a problem with that just pm me and i'll set up a time where we can a discussion face to face:)


LKFMDC wrote:

it was embarassingly obvious, just like your ducking the issue of your own art

Do you think Jow Biu and Jow Lung considered themselves fighters?

Why did Dean Chin think full contact fighting was important enough that he took his students all the way to Taiwan to compete?

Why don't you offer any full contact at your tournament?


okay this is where i didn't want this topic to go, lol.

Of course Jow Biu and Jow Lung considered themselves fighters.

My sifu supported full contact fighting and so do most of us from him. The topic of thread wasn't about full contact;)

we haven't offered full contact during our tournament for two simple reasons. one, INSURANCE. Two we wanted experience in running tournaments first. we have announced during our tournaments future full contact divisions.:D

The only thing embarrasing i see is you being a grown man and an allegedly experienced in martial artist, behaving like a child when other people come on this forum and make comments you disagree with;)

your hilarious man:)

[lkfmdc]

LKFMDC, lets not waste everyone's time or disrespect this forum with your punk a$$ comments:D

if you want to conversate or debate respectfully, i'm all for it. i hate to see good threads and conversation get off track. If you have a problem with that just pm me and i'll set up a time where we can a discussion face to face:)



throws out a childish insult and then a veiled threat, we must have hit a nerve :rolleyes:




Of course Jow Biu and Jow Lung considered themselves fighters.

My sifu supported full contact fighting



thanks for finally addressing direct questions





The topic of thread wasn't about full contact



sure it is, it's about the demise of TCMA, the fact they are no longe fighting is a big part of their demise... at least if you are concerned with the essence. If not, well, then why even bother with this thread?




we haven't offered full contact during our tournament for two simple reasons. one, INSURANCE.



I addressed this once before, you can't afford $700 or so dollars to do the event?

Now, I admire that you wouldn't do the event without insurance, but insurance is not a big deal, so I guess we'll be seeing full contact at your event real soon....

BTW, I'm not the one whose underwear gets in a bunch simply because people are discussing things on a discussion forum

Man, you get awefully defensive awefully quickly.....

[The Willow Sword]

what we have seen in this country is a mindset of marketing martial arts to the average joe and jane that does not necessarily reflect the art itself, but more of a weekend activity to engage in with your family and learn some "kARATE" and some "Kung fu" yadda yadda yadda. Teachers have had to model their arts to fit with the times and the people in this country and the MAJORITY of the people in this country would walk into a serious fighting school and walk right back out and take their money to the local TKD school where the kids wear green sequin gi's and do musical kata OR they go to the school that claims itself as the all knowing shaolin school and plays on the fantasies of those who grew up on david carradine and the TV show and why? because....ITS FUN AND FAMILY ORIENTED. Those TKD schools and the others like it Make the money whereas the Fighting schools close up shop within a couple of years because they are not pulling in the students or the $$ they need to stay afloat. Im not saying that the TKD schools and the ones like it are THE SCHOOLS TO BE AT. But you gotta admit they got all you "REAL FIGHTING" schools:rolleyes: scrounging at the bottom of the barrel.
i find it funny as hell to.

As to TMA on a steady decline? Maybe Gene is right and it is on the rise(in his section of the country and city) in the rest of the country i see the exact opposite. because of what i stated above, i feel that people in general are not looking to go to a "fighting" school. Some are MOST are not, in my opinion.

The point that i am making with all this is that this country is a Money making and wheeling and dealing country and it eclipses the GOOD schools that are out there doing things in the traditional way and teaching the traditional ways and conducting themselves in a manner that goes beyond most of us on this forum.
i feel that those people you will find out in the park teaching for nothing and have another career that brings the bread and butter in. We cant all be chuck liddels or matt hughes etc etc. Most of america is not like that.


Peace,TWS

[lkfmdc]

But you gotta admit they got all you "REAL FIGHTING" schools:rolleyes: scrounging at the bottom of the barrel.
i find it funny as hell to.



What's funny is how out of touch with the industry you are.

There are three major consutling firms for commerical martial arts studios, right now all three are pushing MMA packages and telling their clients they have to jump on the MMA bandwagon or they are going to suffer

Say what you want about Tiger Schulman, he is the most successful Karate school owner in history. He dwarfs all the taekwondo and sport karate places. Yet he's dropped uniforms, he's dropped kata and gone totally MMA

The biggest single school monthly EFT (monthly electronic billing) in the country right now is Renzo Gracie

If anyone is scrounging for business, it's the kung fu schools

[Sal Canzonieri]

The obvious observation and point is that most TCMA schools aren't fielding fighters of any sort...

a place dedicated to San Da will have between 4 and 12 people getting ready to compete at any given time

Shuai Jiao students all "wrestle", many do stuff like judo also

a BJJ school will have it's students competing in BJJ tournaments

anyplace doing MMA has students competing

why is it when a TCMA school goes to a tournament, it's students do forms and not fighting?

you aren't saying that TCMA isn't about fighting are you? Seems you're saying the opposite, so then, why doesn't that ethic manifest itself in practice?

You learn martial arts for one main reason: self defense.
Secondary is health, relaxation, learning an art, etc.

I think that are plenty of TCMA teacher in many areas that can indeed teach this well.

During the 1990s, I made a personal survey when I was touring around the world to TCMA teachers about why they might be reluctant to teach true self defense to students (what you call fighting, whatever).

Top reasons they gave:

1. MOST people who enroll in classes are not interested in putting or are not able to put in the time and effort to learn how to defend themselves efficiently and effectively. Except for a few students, most get turned off when applications are shown and start dropping out.

2. Insurance fears make many teachers afraid that a student will get hurt and sue them.

3. The law is clear about attackers attacking the attacker being illegal so it hinders them and they fear being blamed legally for an incident. (remember, most TCMA are immigrants to the country they are teaching in).

4. People don't stick with classes long enough to even learn the fundamentals, so it is impossible for them to suddenly be able to defend themselves if they don't come to class often enough.

5. they do have a very small circle of top students that stick with them long enough past the fundamentals to learn and handle self defense/fighting skills.

6. Kids parents want to see them just getting belts and push this at the expense of fighting skills, which the parents frown on.

7. The many mcKarate and McTKD schools in the area grab most of the younger people who want to just kick and punch for an hour 2-3 times a week. These people are satisfied with that and don't want to learn TMA that require more out of the student than mere calisthenics.

8. If enough people want to learn it, they would teach it, they would love to teach it in fact.

So, it's a two way street here.
it's not just that teachers are not teaching it.

[WinterPalm]

I think there is a lot of silly stuff going on in here.

TCMA is about fighting. Period. It is about combat. Period. It is about self-protection (self-defense, self-offense...however you prefer to label it). Period.

Without that it is not a martial art.
Many train to protect themselves on the streets.
Sparring within the kwoon can be very dangerous and intense...a sort of competition if you will. Not a tournament or full-contact match obviously, but also a great way, if done properly, to test yourself and to learn.

How about Tony Blauer? The guy is very successful but I don't think he's a ring/cage fighter and many of his concepts are top notch IMHO. Does that mean what he teaches isn't martial arts?
Some styles focus on sparring and fighting...others on self-defense including methods to restrain without hurting. Some do both.

My number one reason for beginning down this road was to learn to protect myself...not to fight in a tournament or a cage or a ring. This means I am not training for a specific time and date, but rather for all. This affects my daily mindset deeply.

Demise of TCMA? I don't think so. If you ask me, every generation had dozens if not hundreds of students who didn't understand the arts...that is fine...it is the nature of human competition that some will excel while others will not. Doesn't mean those who aren't the most dedicated cannot train properly and gain benefit...it just means that often those who don't go on to form a larger group than those who do...and they yell in unison so that often that is all that people can hear.

As long as those few that really care seek to preserve the arts and to share them with others, and the gold inherent is maintained, I don't think they will ever die.

Think about it, TCMA or TMA in general have survived the gun, the nuclear bomb, tanks, revolutions left and right, etc....and somehow people think that the popularity of sportive combat is going to do it?
Do people actually think the arts were invented to fight for comptition or money? I can see why these could be good for testing oneself in a safe environment or to make a living if it was presented...but don't kid yourself, the training is designed for violence, not sport.

[lkfmdc]

Sal,

My response would be that while they may claim those things, maybe even believe them, they are WRONG.

More specifically

1. Then explain Tiger Shulman, Renzo, my gym, the Xtreme Couture gyms, etc... all places where TONS of people show up, and while they may not be all fighters, they train hard, train real, and the places certainly make money

2. If you actually inverstigate, insurance is easy and cheap

A fear that a student will get hurt and sue them is possible, but irrational. They'd have to be responsible of negligence.

3. There are tons of instructors now who were born and rasied here and aren't afraid of "big brother government" coming after them, yet still don't teach it.

4. If people dont come to class or there is no retention, that's an instructor's fault

5. Oh, a very small circle get quality training, the rest get crap? :rolleyes:

6. Visit Team Quest, or SBGi, or Renzo's and see tons of parents very happy that their kids are getting quality real training....

Excuses are like noses, everyone has them and they all smell :p

[KC Elbows]

Excuses are like noses, everyone has them and they all smell :p

Technically, only brown noses smell.

[lkfmdc]

I was trying to be nice.... the real quote is

"excuses are like a-- holes, everyone has them and they are all full of s--t"

happy now? :cool:

[KC Elbows]

I was trying to be nice.... the real quote is

"excuses are like a-- holes, everyone has them and they are all full of s--t"

happy now? :cool:

What about someone who just pooped?

Before training, of course.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm old, I have numerous injuries, I've survived cancer THREE TIMES, so my competition days are well behind me, even then I was a b-level amateur, but I did something. Today, not all my students fight, but about 10% does (around 20 students ready to fight at any given time)....

TCMA schools are full of young in shape people. They can do astounding forms performances, many are great gymnasts.... surely one or two students in a school could fight full contact, no? :rolleyes:

So, wait, you are judging that TMA is dying by the number of TMA people entered into full contact tournaments?

That is not accurate.

How can you ever know if that figure is going up or downing nationally or internationaly to say that a whole genre is dying? Locally maybe you can make that estimation.

During the 1990s when I was judging tournaments in Ohio, there was TONS of full contact TMA people entered representing AND USING skills from Hung gar, shuai jia, Xing Yi, Ba Gua, and so on. Full contact, rules being only: no groin strikes, no knee breaks, no eye or throat gouges.

In fact, the russian team used XY and the tournament winner one year knocked out a PROFESSIONAL thai kick boxer who was from Thailand. The kick boxer won all his matches up to to the top rung and so did the XY guy, meeting for the final title match.
When he came to, the kickboxer jumped up and cheered like he won and his coach ran over to tell him he lost. He looked totally shocked. He was knocked cold and didn't even realize he had been out.

XY - a TMA won against a pro kickboxer.
But the guy actually used XY, he didn't know anything else.
He was from Brooklyn or Queens.

AND, in the private classes I take, there a police men there, body guards, prison guards, and a law enforcement trainer, they have been going to TMA classes with me for the last 10 years. They are there in official capacity for their jobs, getting credits or tuition paid. They also studied judo, aikido, and the like.
I talk to them all the time about what they are allowed to do and what they have to do to stay alive in a confrontation. The said they are not interested in what the ring does only in what the street does.

(I learned cool stuff from them like defense against car antenna strikes, all the places knives can be hidden and used at angles you don't expect, how you have to keep you mind also on preventing your gun from being taken when fighting, how to finish a move so that the perp is in position to be handcuffed, how to fight in a stairwell, when they are not allowed to retreat, etc. All great stuff for street defense not valid in the MMA ring. )

The ring is a sport, plain and simple. MMA doesn't need to be only for the ring, and when it is not in the ring, taaa Da! It becomes TMA again.

TMA works on the street, I have used it over and over since the 70s, the only reason I am alive today.

[The Willow Sword]

this is sad.
http://www.professionalmartialartscollege.com/faculty.asp




here is also an interesting article

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/history-karate-america.htm



PEACE,TWS

[lkfmdc]

So, wait, you are judging that TMA is dying by the number of TMA people entered into full contact tournaments?



Again, depends what you define as "dying" or "demise"

To me, when a so called martial art loses all it's fighting, then yes I'd say it is "demised" (is that a word?)

So the lack of students participating in any form of fighting is AT LEAST ONE INDICATOR.....

BTW, I work around the nation, with a lot of sanctionig bodies and events, my observations are anything but "local"






During the 1990s when I was judging tournaments in Ohio, there was TONS of full contact TMA people entered



In the 1970's and 1980's every kung fu school I knew had a box of boxing gloves in a corner somewhere....

There was always a rivalry with Muay Thai and attention to events in Asia (Taiwan lei tai, Hong Kong open etc)

If there was "fighting" going on it was always full contact

Today, what do we see? We see forms and point sparring....

Both the USAWKF and USWU dropped san da altogether from their national events...




The ring is a sport, plain and simple.



but MMA isn't just about the ring or the cage, it's about HOW you train, and the standards you apply and the outlook you have

[MightyB]

personally, I think TCMA is reaping the benefits of what the old school masters have sewn- you know with holding quality instruction because of fear, nationalism, prejudice, paranoi- etc...

We all have heard the stories of the instructors with holding their best teachings from the foreigner gwai-lo, now it's paying TCMA back in spades. A lot of TCMA stuff don't work because the "masters" failed to teach the stuff that worked. Now there isn't anything to pass on because of all the bunk and the huge number of mis-informed gwai-lo teaching bunk.

We're not stupid- (well, most of us aren't) we go with what works and you can only be deceived for so long before you look elsewhere. Some people keep their heads in the sand with excuses- I mean what would you do if you devoted your best years to a crappy system and learned the terrible truth really late in life? It'd suck, and you wouldn't want to face it right? Well- I see a lot of that.

Benny the Jet was a traditionalist, so was Bill Wallace, Don Wilson, and Joe Lewis. I'd say the Gracies are traditionalist- hybrid traditionalists, Mifune was a traditionalist-

You can be traditional and an MMAer at the same time. It's easy- fighting is just Shuai, Na, Ti, Da - that's it. Whatever your base style is- it's not good at all ranges. Supplement with a complimentary style. Plain and simple- you're lying to yourself if you think your MA can do it all 'cuz it can't. If your base is striking- then supplement with a pure grappling style- two traditional styles makes you a good MMAer.

Check out what Shou Yu Liang and Tony Chen are doing- I like it. These are two traditionalist with a great approach to training. You'd have to read Kung Fu Elements and check out Tony Chen's article about MMA in the PRC in Kung Fu Magazine to get what I'm talking about.

The B

[Lucas]

IMO- the simple fact that we have several men on a discussion board talking about the changes that need to be made in many cases regarding the training methods and habits of TCMA/TMA is a sure indicator that there are those involved in TMA that are concerned and are looking to change things to the way they should be.


Changes like this do not happen over night. they rarely happen in one generation. usually changes on that large of a scale are made through hard work, time, dedication, and love.


Demised? IMO ~ no

In the process of opening its eyes to the situation at hand? yes


Thats just me, But I highly doubt I am alone.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Again, depends what you define as "dying" or "demise"

To me, when a so called martial art loses all it's fighting, then yes I'd say it is "demised" (is that a word?)

So the lack of students participating in any form of fighting is AT LEAST ONE INDICATOR.....

BTW, I work around the nation, with a lot of sanctionig bodies and events, my observations are anything but "local"





In the 1970's and 1980's every kung fu school I knew had a box of boxing gloves in a corner somewhere....

There was always a rivalry with Muay Thai and attention to events in Asia (Taiwan lei tai, Hong Kong open etc)

If there was "fighting" going on it was always full contact

Today, what do we see? We see forms and point sparring....

Both the USAWKF and USWU dropped san da altogether from their national events...



but MMA isn't just about the ring or the cage, it's about HOW you train, and the standards you apply and the outlook you have

hmm, okay, I guess I haven't seen that cause i am not involved outside of my own studies.

Well, so, what can be done about it?
It being that a number of MA schools aren't teaching more than forms, etc., instead of self defense/fighting skills?

Why don't people ASK these schools why they aren't teaching self defense, etc?

There are schools that do teach everything, how are they doing?

It seems to be a post-2000 thing for fighting skills teaching to be dropped.
Why?

What's the factors involved?

Is it solvable?

[lkfmdc]

Some people keep their heads in the sand with excuses- I mean what would you do if you devoted your best years to a crappy system and learned the terrible truth really late in life?



Been said many times before, martial arts are like religion, challenge people's faith and they get up in arms, when they have to question their dogma they react violently, we see it plenty here





You can be traditional and an MMAer at the same time. It's easy- fighting is just Shuai, Na, Ti, Da - that's it. Whatever your base style is- it's not good at all ranges. Supplement with a complimentary style.



People who are interested in fighting, that's what they basicly do to varying degrees... some stay a little traditional, some leave the trapping behind completely

The real issue are those who never do that, and keep their heads in the sand while humming the official "secret deadly dim mak warrior" song :p





Check out what Shou Yu Liang and Tony Chen are doing- I like it. These are two traditionalist with a great approach to training.



There are others, there are others

[Sal Canzonieri]

personally, I think TCMA is reaping the benefits of what the old school masters have sewn- you know with holding quality instruction because of fear, nationalism, prejudice, paranoi- etc...

We all have heard the stories of the instructors with holding their best teachings from the foreigner gwai-lo, now it's paying TCMA back in spades. A lot of TCMA stuff don't work because the "masters" failed to teach the stuff that worked. Now there isn't anything to pass on because of all the bunk and the huge number of mis-informed gwai-lo teaching bunk.

We're not stupid- (well, most of us aren't) we go with what works and you can only be deceived for so long before you look elsewhere. Some people keep their heads in the sand with excuses- I mean what would you do if you devoted your best years to a crappy system and learned the terrible truth really late in life? It'd suck, and you wouldn't want to face it right? Well- I see a lot of that.

Benny the Jet was a traditionalist, so was Bill Wallace, Don Wilson, and Joe Lewis. I'd say the Gracies are traditionalist- hybrid traditionalists, Mifune was a traditionalist-

You can be traditional and an MMAer at the same time. It's easy- fighting is just Shuai, Na, Ti, Da - that's it. Whatever your base style is- it's not good at all ranges. Supplement with a complimentary style. Plain and simple- you're lying to yourself if you think your MA can do it all 'cuz it can't. If your base is striking- then supplement with a pure grappling style- two traditional styles makes you a good MMAer.

Check out what Shou Yu Liang and Tony Chen are doing- I like it. These are two traditionalist with a great approach to training. You'd have to read Kung Fu Elements and check out Tony Chen's article about MMA in the PRC in Kung Fu Magazine to get what I'm talking about.

The B

I can tell you without a doubt the MOST schools have withheld correct instruction, that is assuming that their teachers even had correct instruction.
In my 30+ years of MA experience, rarely have i seen people doing things with correct body mechanics and with efficiency and effectiveness. Rarely.
karate or KF or TKD, most of what I have seen is terribly executed and would not work in self defense, not cause their forms were no good, but because their fundamentals were no good.
I think forms have nothing to do with this "problem", it's something bigger and deeper this wrong.
I think people just either don't teach what is correct or don't know what is correct.

Also, yes, indeed, every great fighting master of their day learned:
Shuai Jiao or some type of takedown art, Tong Bei, some type of long fist, and some type of internal TJQ, XY, BG material, plus sword and spear fighting. EVERY.

[GeneChing]

Oh man, I gotta change my bait.

I didn't say we should remove 'the street/ring/cage' for everyone. There will always be some amongst us to step up to the leitai and I hope that this population is growing. It seems that way to me here. As for the "just doing chi kung, aerobics with a twist, yoga or pilates" those are all fine disciplines (I especially like my aerobics with a twist of lime :p), so by saying 'just' it makes it sound like they have less value. They have plenty of value when practiced properly. But that's minor really. The very definition of tradition implies age. The older you get, the further you get from the 'the ring/cage'. The street is always there, of course, and you do your best to cope with that. There are other battles that arise with age.

[lkfmdc]

I didn't say we should remove 'the street/ring/cage' for everyone.



While the actual fighting isn't for everyone, the TRAINING should be for everyone. Removing it and you don't have martial art anymore....




There will always be some amongst us to step up to the leitai and I hope that this population is growing.



I hope so, but I'm skeptical based upon the trends I've seen over the years




As for the "just doing chi kung, aerobics with a twist, yoga or pilates" those are all fine disciplines



fine disciplines, but not martial arts

raquet ball is great exercise, it's fun, but don't confuse it with fighting





The older you get, the further you get from the 'the ring/cage'. The street is always there, of course, and you do your best to cope with that. There are other battles that arise with age.



old, numerous injuries, cancer surviver several times, not a fighter, but I train like one... I still make my body savage while the mind remains peaceful

[bawang]

by the way, my comment was direct at streetfighter, not to confuse or offend anybody!!


I just think TMA pple need to train harder, then they can do fight. if thers not enough time to train something (like forms), then it's better off to do it less and train the more important things.
but sometimes you look at some people's eyes and "it"'s not there.

[MasterKiller]

LKFMDC's "average" students are better than that "one guy" in every traditional school that can actually fight.

[lkfmdc]

LKFMDC's "average" students are better than that "one guy" in every traditional school that can actually fight.

I hear there are even girls who can beat people up :D

[Tai-Lik]

throws out a childish insult and then a veiled threat, we must have hit a nerve :rolleyes:



thanks for finally addressing direct questions




sure it is, it's about the demise of TCMA, the fact they are no longe fighting is a big part of their demise... at least if you are concerned with the essence. If not, well, then why even bother with this thread?



I addressed this once before, you can't afford $700 or so dollars to do the event?

Now, I admire that you wouldn't do the event without insurance, but insurance is not a big deal, so I guess we'll be seeing full contact at your event real soon....

BTW, I'm not the one whose underwear gets in a bunch simply because people are discussing things on a discussion forum

Man, you get awefully defensive awefully quickly.....

LOL, yeah okay LKFMDC :-)

back to the discussion.....

[lkfmdc]

LOL, yeah okay LKFMDC :-)



I know you want it to seem like none of this bothers you, but it's so transparent as to be amusing, really

It must be particularly annoying to you that I know so much about your lineage :rolleyes:

[rogue]

We all have heard the stories of the instructors with holding their best teachings from the foreigner gwai-lo, now it's paying TCMA back in spades. A lot of TCMA stuff don't work because the "masters" failed to teach the stuff that worked. Now there isn't anything to pass on because of all the bunk and the huge number of mis-informed gwai-lo teaching bunk.

A while back I was having dinner with a well known martial historian and he was telling how many of the masters weren't holding back, but really had large gaps in their training. Having secret techniques is a great way to hide those gaps.

[Tai-Lik]

I know you want it to seem like none of this bothers you, but it's so transparent as to be amusing, really

It must be particularly annoying to you that I know so much about your lineage :rolleyes:



Actually, i think your annoyed that i'm NOT bothered by your childish shinanegans.
You may have some of these guys Bamboozled, but not me. i'm familiar with your wellknown reputation back in the days when you tried to do TCMA.:rolleyes:
i can understand why your so bitter towards TCMA.

The funny thing is that these guys reading our post don't know what's underneath the surface of our exchanges and why your so threatened by me. ;)
It's personal so why don't we keep it between us and stop wasting everyones time.

You don't know anything about me, my lineage, jow ga or my sifu.
:D and don't mention my sifu's name like you had any association with him.

you say martial arts is about fighting. i agree, but also respect, honor, etc.
you never learned that.

I'll tell you what; i'm gonna be in new york around december. Instead of side tracking this thread, why don't you and i get together for dim sum and discuss all the comments you've made? i would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts and comments in person.


:)

[Asia]

you say martial arts is about fighting. i agree, but also respect, honor, etc.

Based on what? Where in the term MARITAL ARTS does it make it essential to include respect, honor, etc?

[Tai-Lik]

again, i think it goes back to training. two problems i often see SOME TCMA fighters facing when it comes to full contact matches.

1. They don't seem to train their own styles techniques enough for the ring.

2. Many of them get in the ring and try to kick box. Nothing wrong with kickboxing. the problem is that many of them don't have any formal boxing training. An opponent properly trained in boxing could defeat them with basic boxing fundamentals. At this point, your TCMA fighter is confused and caught between inadequate training in his traditional techniques and an immitation of boxing skills that he picked up from the Rocky movies. This is the fault of the
Sifu.

alot of the MMA schools provide professional training in boxing.

This is just one example, but some of the choy lay fut schools have done a great job in combining fundamental boxing skills with their traditional techniques and seem to be producing some really good full contact fighters. If this trend continues with other TCMA schools, you will definitely see improvement pertaining to full contact. They've accomplished this without abandoning their style and keeping their traditions, unlike some other people who were lousy, so they just gave up on TCMA.

over the past few years, i've been to several kung fu tournaments that promote full contact competitions. My hat goes off to those guys on the west coast and many schools in europe because they are producing some really good TCMA full contact fighters. Some people on this forum speak about TCMA full contact fighting when they haven't been around many of the more popular TCMA events in many years. they use there own full contact circuits and circles to judge TCMA full contact, when they know nothing about the TCMA full contact events going on around the world.

There is a really good TCMA full contact event in Gevelsberg Germany every year.;)

With all that said, some of the best fighters i have ever seen, never stepped foot in an organized full contact ring.;)

[FungFu2u2]

Based on what? Where in the term MARITAL ARTS does it make it essential to include respect, honor, etc?

Back when martial arts was the worriors way of life, they were taught respect for their masters, theirs schools. Even the Shoalin monks taught respect for life and everything around them. The samuria worriors respected other worriors, they might have faught them , but still respected their abilities. Honor was top priority among the Japanese. Most of the asians were the same way when it came to respect.

In the martial arts schools today, we have taken it one step further by showing respect for other schools, unless the prove they deserve no respect.

[rogue]

;)

Just wondering if you have something in your eye.

[Tai-Lik]

Based on what? Where in the term MARITAL ARTS does it make it essential to include respect, honor, etc?


Based on my own experience and the same experience of people i've known for many years. i mention this first because i try to base what i say on my own experiences. Now, i'm sure you can find many books and articles on the history of martial arts and see that respect and honor have been included.

Essential, i never said if was. You have alot of knuckleheads out there practicing martial arts. Hopefully people have been taught respect and honor by their parents. In martial arts, the ones who speak out against respect and honor in martial are usually the ones with some issues.

you don't have to accept it. It's essential for me and the many kids i teach as a tool to help them stay off the streets and out of trouble. TCMA, MMA, Judo, etc... are just names, but they are what you make it and not what anyone else tells you.

[Asia]

Back when martial arts was the worriors way of life, they were taught respect for their masters, theirs schools.
Was that something to do with MA or a CULTURAL thing? It was cultural just like in anything else.

[qutoe]Even the Shoalin monks taught respect for life and everything around them.[/quote]
Because they were a religious order. The biggest misconception was that MA was birth at Shaolin. That wasn't the case. MA was brought into Shaolin and mixed with its already established religous teachings.


The samuria worriors respected other worriors, they might have faught them , but still respected their abilities. Honor was top priority among the Japanese.
OW BAD EXAMPLE!!!
Samurai were some of the worse *******s out there. Do you know what BUREI UCHI is? It was the right of the samurai to basicly kill ANYONE who annoyed them. It was notoriously abused.


Most of the asians were the same way when it came to respect.
Cultural norm nothing to do with MA. What about the MA practices in the rest of the world?


In the martial arts schools today, we have taken it one step further by showing respect for other schools, unless the prove they deserve no respect.
Says who?

[Tai-Lik]

Just wondering if you have something in your eye.

LOL, tears from laughing
;)

[rogue]

Honor was top priority among the Japanese. Most of the asians were the same way when it came to respect.
Ever hear of the Bataam Death March? The Burma Railway? Yup them Japanese sure were into honor and respect of their fellow warriors.

[lkfmdc]

You may have some of these guys Bamboozled, but not me. i'm familiar with your wellknown reputation back in the days when you tried to do TCMA.



Would you be refering to being asked to perform in the NACMAF master's demonstration by Tai Yim?

Or perhaps my takign 4th in the NACMAF long/short advanced division behind Hung Stewart, Daniel Tomazaki and jason Wong (ie the top three players in the nation)

Perhaps you're talking about how my students took home over 14 trophies one year, equally in forms, weapons and sparring

And where were you back then? I don't remember you performing, or competiting, or in any of the meetings....





You don't know anything about me, my lineage, jow ga or my sifu.
and don't mention my sifu's name like you had any association with him.




I know TONS about your system, your sifu and your lineage, and that's why you get so upset....

[Asia]

Based on my own experience and the same experience of people i've known for many years. i mention this first because i try to base what i say on my own experiences.
How do your experiences make honor, respect, etc. essential to MA?


Now, i'm sure you can find many books and articles on the history of martial arts and see that respect and honor have been included.
Sure but that doesn't make it essential.


Essential, i never said if was.
No but you try to imply it was. You said it was ALSO about respect and honor. Which would seem to imply you think its essential to it. I say that honor and respect are not essential at all and is up to the practitioner's discretion.


You have alot of knuckleheads out there practicing martial arts. Hopefully people have been taught respect and honor by their parents.
True but what makes a MArtist one to judge is a person has enough repsect and honor to do MA?


In martial arts, the ones who speak out against respect and honor in martial are usually the ones with some issues.
Not completely true. They can be the ones who don't see why someone, who is usually unqualified to judge, is trying to impose their views on them.


you don't have to accept it. It's essential for me and the many kids i teach as a tool to help them stay off the streets and out of trouble. TCMA, MMA, Judo, etc... are just names, but they are what you make it and not what anyone else tells you.
Hence no one can factually say that MA is ALSO about honor and respect because it is not essential. The only thing that is essential is learning to fight.

[NJM]

I think we need to make a distinction here between "Martial Art" and "Martial Way."

[Asia]

I think we need to make a distinction here between "Martial Art" and "Martial Way."

True. But the distinction is a bit outdated as well. In Japan BUJUTSU (MARTIAL ART) and BUDO (MARTIAL WAY) are pretty much synonymous and the issue of effectiveness is the primary discussion.

[FungFu2u2]

I am sure that anyone can find historical facts to back up their own beliefs of respect and honor in the Martial Arts. I am mainly concerned with what most Martial Artist are taught in this country, most of the Martial Artist that I have come in contact with, that is.

And yes, the Shoalin Monks were taught thier art from some one else that saw that they did not know how to defend themselves from bandits.

The key that that I believe is that you can learn something good from any Martial Art style.

I know that you (Asia) and Tom have had this discussion before. The only school that I know that Tom does not have any respect for Coda Scott's school.

[Tai-Lik]

LKFMDC wrote:


Would you be refering to being asked to perform in the NACMAF master's demonstration by Tai Yim?

Or perhaps my takign 4th in the NACMAF long/short advanced division behind Hung Stewart, Daniel Tomazaki and jason Wong (ie the top three players in the nation)

Perhaps you're talking about how my students took home over 14 trophies one year, equally in forms, weapons and sparring

And where were you back then? I don't remember you performing, or competiting, or in any of the meetings....

Tai Yim asked you what? LOL, oh my god! LMAO. okay Dave

Where was i, well, let me see, hmmmm, oh yeah, i was winning the mens heavy weight advanced fighting division. i don't recall seeing you in the fighting division. Did you say you were doing forms Dave? :D

i don't need to pull other people's name in like you, but it's funny how many of the people you like to mention, laugh about you to this day. if you knew anything about me, you would know that i am currently in contact with most of the people you've named as so called references.


LKFMDC wrote:


I know TONS about your system, your sifu and your lineage, and that's why you get so upset....

oh yeah i forgot you know everything.

come on Dave, lets just move on. What about dim sum in december, my treat?:)

[lkfmdc]

Tai Yim asked you what? LOL, oh my god! LMAO. okay Dave



are you dillusional or just ignorant?

here's a pic from the end of the NACMAF masters' demo,
from left to right Anthony Goh, Tai Yim, Ken Lo, YC Wong, Chan Tai San, ME, the sifu from UK, John Funk and Nick Gracien

sorry if the truth makes you so uncomfortable

[lkfmdc]

i was winning the mens heavy weight advanced fighting division. i don't recall seeing you in the fighting division.



OK big boy, WHAT YEAR?

This should be fun... because I took THIRD one year and two people on this very board were there.... Lama Pai Sifu and Ngok Fei.... Ngok Fei (aka Eric Hargrove) took first when the infamous "Ghetto-Fu" slammed him with an illegal throw on the concrete....

I was disqualified when I hit Eric in the head, after that experience I didn't bother with the point fighitng anymore :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

oh yeah i forgot you know everything.



I know that back in the day when I spent time with TCMA people and went to NACMAF, you were NO ONE...

I spent a lot of time with Deric Mimms, YOUR TEACHER. The other Jow Ga people in the "loop" were of course Hoy Lee and Raymond Wong

Here's a pic of me and a few others I'm sure you know

[lkfmdc]

i was winning the mens heavy weight advanced fighting division.



according to a certain kung fu magazine, NO

[Tai-Lik]

LKFMDC,

in every picture, did you notice that you were standng with your sifu? your sifu was famous and we all saw you just following him around like a lost puppy. we also saw how he treated you like you were an idiot. your pictures are more bamboozlery.

as far as my competing in the NACMAF, i've already posted the results with names from the year i competed online. if you want, i can give you a copy during dim sum:)

LKFMDC wrote:


spent a lot of time with Deric Mimms, YOUR TEACHER. The other Jow Ga people in the "loop" were of course Hoy Lee and Raymond Wong

this obviously shows you know nothing about me or our jow ga history and how you've just offended my Sigung by referring to Deric Mims as my teacher.

Deric Mims MY SIHING became my primary instructor after my sifu died. Btw, i've already asked for permission to tell you publicly, that Deric Mims thought you were a clown along with so many other sifus, who only tolerated you because they respected your master Chan Tai San. You can call Deric yourself and ask him what he thinks of you. Also ask Deric who is my teacher.

Anymore pictures of you following your master around?:D

come to my tournament. some of the people you've mentioned will be there and we can see how much respect you really have.

Although your a scrub, i'm willing to move on dave. how about you just pm me your next comment so we can stay off the board? better yet, write everything down and bring it to dim sum.

LKFMDC, i going to sleep now. i'll leave you here to make up more lies and propaganda.

[lkfmdc]

dear lord, you are so full of crap it's amazing.....

this one is too big to upload, so just follow the link

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/seminarflyer.jpg

seems I was asked to give a seminar at a NACMAF event, where they refer to me as sifu Ross... I'm sure that people they thought so little of were always asked to do seminars :rolleyes:

seems I have stuff to back up my claims and you have nothign but hot air :rolleyes:

[street_fighter]

how about you just pm me your next comment so we can stay off the board? better yet, write everything down and bring it to dim sum.

LKFMDC, i going to sleep now. i'll leave you here to make up more lies and propaganda.

no, please continue on here, you have revitalized my spirit! I remember now why I first started visiting KFM. I have no idea who's winning but Im loving every second of it. anticipating a great finale.

[Tai-Lik]

according to a certain kung fu magazine, NO

uh Dave? you posted ONLY 1991. more of your bamboozlery. i've posted the results from the year i competed online before and i will be happy to post again for you tomorrow. your training brothers have seen the NACMAF results that i posted. remember i also posted the picture of you and your training brothers at the NACMAF breaking the concrete over your master's back that year.

nice try Dave.

Dave this is between you and me. i don't need to bring other people into this like you. lets take it off line or conversate like respectable men. Please.

[lkfmdc]

uh Dave? you posted ONLY 1991. more of your bamboozlery.



1991 is the year I competed and took third, YOU ASKED ME IF I HAD COMPETED

It is unfortunate they are not complete results, but as I said, Eric Hargrove is "Ngok Fei" in this very board and if you have any doubt at all that I was DQ'ed fighting him, the he then fought "Ghetto Fu" and won when "Ghetto Fu" slammed him feel free to contact him

[lkfmdc]

This is your exact quote, unchanged




oh yeah, i was winning the mens heavy weight advanced fighting division. i don't recall seeing you in the fighting division.


I fought and placed in 91

My posted clip doesn't have the full results but lists Eric Hargrove as the winner, as I said before I posted, and Eric is on the board for you to ask him

So what year did you fight? Isn't a huge question, what year?

[Tai-Lik]

dear lord, you are so full of crap it's amazing.....

this one is too big to upload, so just follow the link

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/seminarflyer.jpg

seems I was asked to give a seminar at a NACMAF event, where they refer to me as sifu Ross... I'm sure that people they thought so little of were always asked to do seminars :rolleyes:

seems I have stuff to back up my claims and you have nothign but hot air :rolleyes:


Dave, Dave, Dave, you were asked to help your sifu. again following your sifu around.

Dave aka LKFMDC wrote:
where they refer to me as sifu Ross...

you gotta be kidding me. do you realize how childish you sound. did they let you play in the sand box. probably not because other kids would just kick sand in your face, chump.

Dave you really know nothing about me and i think your afraid to take a look at yourself.

you don't like people like me because we know the truth about you.

let it go and lets move on. i promise i won't write anymore bad things about you if you just stop.

[Tai-Lik]

This is your exact quote, unchanged



I fought and placed in 91

My posted clip doesn't have the full results but lists Eric Hargrove as the winner, as I said before I posted, and Eric is on the board for you to ask him

So what year did you fight? Isn't a huge question, what year?


Dave you might want to leave this point alone because i've posted the results online before and there are many people who have seen them. don't worry when i get to my other computer, i will post them tomorrow as i have done before. :)

[lkfmdc]

Dave, Dave, Dave, you were asked to help your sifu. again following your sifu around.



do you have a problem reading? my sifu wasn't doing the seminar, I WAS... just like in the pic I posted I wasn't just helping my sifu, I did my own demo, which, YES, Tai Yim asked me to do.

I assume you were there in 1990... just like I assume you were there in 1991 in which case you must know about Eric Hargrove fighting "Ghetto Fu"...

so why play dumb?

and what's the big deal, what year did YOU compete?

[lkfmdc]

other kids would just kick sand in your face, chump.


another veiled threat :rolleyes:





you don't like people like me because we know the truth about you.



I just demonstrated that your currency is petty insult, innuendo and rumor....

[lkfmdc]

Dave you might want to leave this point alone because i've posted the results online before



You claimed I never competed, I said I did in 1991 and just produced something to back up my story (though I admit the fact the full results were not posted sort of sucks). Are you going to post something saying I did not fight and place in 1991?

Are you saying you won in 1991?

If you won another year, doesn't matter, I only competed once at NACMAF. Producing something that shows I didn't place anyother year is NOT a "smoking gun"

[Green Cloud]

Sifu Tai lik is on the money, Dave is full of ****. Jumping ino pictures and riding on Chan tai sans tail coats means nothing. The truth is Dave Ross can't light a candle to tai liks jock strap, this is a stupid mute conversation. Erick hard Grove,, give me a break that doode won by holywooding through the whole tourney. Definision of holywooding - pretending that youre hert so you can win. I haven't been on this forum for a while but please. Stop riding on Sifu's coat tails and prostitutig his name so you can justify your existance Dave.

[lkfmdc]

My oh my, look who crawled out of the gutter, Gus "oh my hip hurts" Kaparos!

If he's gonna talk about riding coat tails and being a prostitute then I think it's time to revisit our little thread about Gus

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43675&highlight=green+cloud+fraud

How's the hip Gus? Are you back in fighting shape?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You know, I see stupid crap like this, and I am SOOO Glad I learned everything I know from VHS tapes!!

It's not like a real Chinese teacher would teach any better anyway, and I don't have all the political crap to deal with to boot!

You may return to your regularly scheduled argument...I am being called away on urgent business.

Nite Nite!! :rolleyes:

[Green Cloud]

just fine dave come on by and vist and I'l show how how good my hip replacement was. The fact is youre full of **** and yea toche I have to admitt you got the best of me on this forum when I was in a wheel chair. I'm just fine now go and post anything you want, everything is you post is a fabricated BS any way.

[lkfmdc]

Let's re-examine the thread

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43675&highlight=green+cloud+fraud

he issues a challenge and backed out in under 4 hours. He issued it and then whined about how he was too gimpy to fight :rolleyes:

Read it again

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43675&highlight=green+cloud+fraud

There was another one, but when Gus slandered Lama Pai Sifu it was removed for legal reasons.

If Tai Lik is buddies with Gus (I have no idea, just "if") then I think we can chalk off his sour grapes to that...

[Tai-Lik]

Dave LKFMDC, you've demonstrated that your a phony. you write and post lies like you think these guys are stupid. your play'n yourself now.

i feel sorry for you because i know you were that little boy that never got picked to be on anyones team, so now your online front'n like your some body. i wish we didn't have to go here, but as i tried to ignore you, you just kept on pushing it.

Dave, i am really not taking you or this seriously. let it go while i'm smiling.

see :)

Dave you stand for nothing, so you fall for everything.

[lkfmdc]

just fine dave come on by and vist and I'l show how how good my hip replacement was. The fact is youre full of **** and yea toche I have to admitt you giot the best of me on this forum when i was in a wheel chair. I'm just fine now go and post anything you want, everything is you post is a fabricated BS any way.

translation: "I challenged you, never thought you'd accept, freaked out when you accepted, begged a student of LPS's to stop the fight, then disappeared off the forum for months, now I'm talking tough knowing my school is at the very tip of Long Island and no one would bother with traveling out here" :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

dear lord, you are so full of crap it's amazing.....

this one is too big to upload, so just follow the link

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/seminarflyer.jpg

seems I was asked to give a seminar at a NACMAF event, where they refer to me as sifu Ross... I'm sure that people they thought so little of were always asked to do seminars :rolleyes:

seems I have stuff to back up my claims and you have nothign but hot air :rolleyes:

Why are you so insecure, man? :confused:

[lkfmdc]

Dave LKFMDC, you've demonstrated that your a phony. you write and post lies like you think these guys are stupid. your play'n yourself now.



1. You claimed I never performed in the master's demo, I produced both a pic and the flyer

2. You claimed I never fought and I just produced the magazine clipping and the person who beat me is on here and so the story is easily verified

So please reveal your "smoking gun" showing all my lies :rolleyes:

I took third in 1991. Are you saying otherwise? I took fourth in forms. Are you saying otherwise?

As I just said, guess you and Gus are close, which is fine, and I guess he's been filling your ear with all his slop... too bad you can't see the forest for the trees

[lkfmdc]

Why are you so insecure, man? :confused:

I'm not at all. If you could please take note, I've had this stuff for YEARS (and been on here for years), never posted it before. I am just verifying what I have said, in light of being called a liar. I think what I posted backs up every word I've said....

It doesn't make me a super man, it really doesn't mean anything, other than exactly what I said, ie that I was part of NACMAF and accepted as a teacher a very long time ago (1990)

[Green Cloud]

Dave I admitt I was in a bad place at that time I just had a serious debilatating surgery and I was out of my mind. This posturing is stupid on my part, I;m not wearing spedos and fighting based on your san da ufc rules and I will talk openly. If youhave a problem with that come down to meet me and well see how things go. I'm just here to set the record strait, youre full of shiat and that nacmaf stuff is bull ****. rememb er I was there.

[Laukarbo]

its like watching Tom and Jerry cartoons...:D

[Green Cloud]

1. You claimed I never performed in the master's demo, I produced both a pic and the flyer

2. You claimed I never fought and I just produced the magazine clipping and the person who beat me is on here and so the story is easily verified

So please reveal your "smoking gun" showing all my lies :rolleyes:

I took third in 1991. Are you saying otherwise? I took fourth in forms. Are you saying otherwise?

As I just said, guess you and Gus are close, which is fine, and I guess he's been filling your ear with all his slop... too bad you can't see the forest for the trees

You were never in the masters demo we simply were there to help Sifu Chan do his demo.

[Green Cloud]

Dave I'm just trying to keep the record strait:)

[lkfmdc]

You were never in the masters demo we simply were there to help Sifu Chan do his demo.

Well, I could state the obvious, I was in the 1990 master's demo and you'd have no idea about that since you didn't even meet us (Chan Tai San included) until a year later..... OOOOOOOPPPPPPPPSSSSSS

The pic and the seminar flyer are both ample evidence I was in the 1990 demo. I'd love for you to produce something showing where you were in 1990... :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Dave I'm just trying to keep the record strait:)

The record is that you hadn't even met Chan Tai San in 1990.

[Green Cloud]

The fact is I apoligize for my conduct on the forum back then it made our sifu look bad. As I said I'm just trying to keep the record strait.

[Green Cloud]

Well, I could state the obvious, I was in the 1990 master's demo and you'd have no idea about that since you didn't even meet us (Chan Tai San included) until a year later..... OOOOOOOPPPPPPPPSSSSSS

The pic and the seminar flyer are both ample evidence I was in the 1990 demo. I'd love for you to produce something showing where you were in 1990... :rolleyes:

Sure what ever you say grand poo ba

[lkfmdc]

Dave I admitt I was in a bad place at that time I just had a serious debilatating surgery and I was out of my mind. This posturing is stupid on my part, I;m not wearing spedos and fighting based on your san da ufc rules and I will talk openly. If youhave a problem with that come down to meet me and well see how things go. I'm just here to set the record strait, youre full of shiat and that nacmaf stuff is bull ****. rememb er I was there.

you were there in 1990?

I can get about 10 people who still post on this board to post that you hadn't even met CTS in 1990.....

and clearly you are still out of your mind

[Green Cloud]

OK dave being there as you say means what that you good at kung fu even though you don't believe in it???

[Green Cloud]

I already said that your the Grand POOO BAA what else do you want.

[lkfmdc]

Gus, explain to the board why Steve Ventura was not at NACMAF in 1990?

Please post ANYTHING that can convince us you were there? Remember, in a day or so I'm sure Chris and Mike will log on to testify about when you joined the group....

Back then, we were in the Duk Chan, do you have any pictures of yourself in the Duk Chan?

Where was teh Duk Chan?

[unkokusai]

Most of the asians were the same way when it came to respect.




Oh, it is painful to read crap like that...

[lkfmdc]

By the way, as Gus fumbles for answers and tries to misdirect teh conversation

be sure to read all about him at http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43675&highlight=green+cloud+fraud

[Green Cloud]

Your arguments on this thread don't make sense. You claim that CMA is not effective when it comes to fighting, but yet you cling on to CMA tornaments you participated in but then say that CMA is Crap. I'm confused??? What's your point???:(

[Green Cloud]

Steve Ventura?? you mean your Sifu Mentor HMMM. I wonder why he doesn't spend his time on this forum??

[Green Cloud]

Once again Dave I'm just here to set the record strait.

[lkfmdc]

Once again Dave I'm just here to set the record strait.

The record indicates that in 1990 you hadn't met Chan Tai San and had no idea even who he was. Thus, you weren't at NACMAF in 1990. Thus, claims about knowing what happened there are more of your BS, of which there is much

I guess I can go scan the IKF article from 1989... it has me, Ventura and Laurette in it, no mention of you.... hmmmmmm

[Tai-Lik]

1. You claimed I never performed in the master's demo, I produced both a pic and the flyer

2. You claimed I never fought and I just produced the magazine clipping and the person who beat me is on here and so the story is easily verified

So please reveal your "smoking gun" showing all my lies :rolleyes:

I took third in 1991. Are you saying otherwise? I took fourth in forms. Are you saying otherwise?

As I just said, guess you and Gus are close, which is fine, and I guess he's been filling your ear with all his slop... too bad you can't see the forest for the trees

i gotta hand it to you Dave. verrrry tricky, very tricky. you write so people just reading get the impression that you have actually verified something. you change what people say so you can appear to be making a point. again, you were there following and helping your master. anything you received was due to your master and you disgrace him with your lies, deceit and betrayal of the art he tried to teach you.

let talk it over during dim sum in december :)

what i knew by your first comment and the others didn't know, was that you were looking for an opportunity to go here with me. that's why ignored your first question. you can only stand up to me from behind your computer.

as i said, this is between you and i, so lets try and keep it that way.

Dave stop before it goes too far.

[Green Cloud]

Sifu Tai Lik with all Do respects this guy is not Mo Lum Nor is he wort youre time. Let him have his forum so he can influence the 12 people that are on this forum. He needs it to feed his ego. It's all he's got.

[lkfmdc]

what i knew by your first comment and the others didn't know, was that you were looking for an opportunity to go here with me.



man, you really have an inflated perception of your importance.

I suggest everyone just go back and read the earlier part of this thread. None of it is edited after all....

This IS a discussion forum and I responded, ie engaged in a discussion regarding your remarks about 100's of CMA schools.

I asked you how many engage in fighting?
You responded with a personal attack, specifically saying that since I promote full contact events that is all I am interested in or have an interest in...

Again, no need to argue, just go back and re-read the thread....

Frankly, if you don't like people disagreeing with you, why particpate in a discussion forum?




you can only stand up to me from behind your computer.

as i said, this is between you and i, so lets try and keep it that way.

Dave stop before it goes too far.



Just drop the veiled threats. Believe what you want, I could care less about what you think, and I also could care less if you are threatening me. I work out with fighters 6 days a week. I"m not a fighter now, never really was, but I'm no push over....

If you want to threaten me, fine. If you want to challenge me, fine, that's on you...

Do I seem to be hiding?

In case you didn't notice, my school is linked right below. I'll even save you a click

New York San Da
313 W 37th Street, between 8th and 9th ave
8th FLOOR
NY NY 10018

I figure a discussion forum is a place for discussion and arguments. If you want to make it more than that, it's on you

[unkokusai]

I'm not at all.



Please. Everything you post screams of insecurity. Try to relax.




Well, I guess you should finish your 'thing' with this Tai Lik fella first. But then relax.

[lkfmdc]

Here is my first post in response to you


Of those 100, how many have students that do any sort of full contact fighting or alive competition? Not point sparring, not continuous point sparring, not sparring in their school, but real actual testing of their skills in an open envirionment?

This was your first response to me




If this is how you measure a martial artist, then no comment is necessary.;)
Although, being that you are a full contact promoter, i can understand why you would bring this up. :D

All this rhetoric and prejudice against ALL TCMA is ridiculous.

Peace LKFMDC

To which I responded


And what do YOU think TCMA should be all about then?

Do you think the masters of old wanted their students to be ballet dancers :rolleyes:

Hate to break it to you, again, but MARTIAL ARTS are about fighting. If they weren't then they'd be chi kung, or yoga, or pilates....



And YOU are a promoter of an all forms and point sparring tournament :rolleyes:

Let's also remind everyone that when someone asked you why you don't have any full contact in your tournament you freaked out :rolleyes:

If you're just going to focus on looking pretty and not worry about fighting, you should do modern wushu

NOTHING CHANGED, and they can go back and read it all and more...

[Green Cloud]

The fact is Kung Fu is not main stream, it take a lot of hard work and a cerain kind of ethick to do this stuff. Sifu Tai Lik is right abou every thing he sais I was there.

[street_fighter]

ok, skill levels aside, its pretty clear that lkfmdc is the only one here with his head screwed on right. green cloud dude sounds insane (really, you need to seek professional help), has worse spelling than mine, and no excuses for exposed lies. he repeats the same thing but expects a different reaction... and tai lik cant seem to think of anything other than dim sum with dave. i think he likes you.

proceed.

[lkfmdc]

The fact is Kung Fu is not main stream, it take a lot of hard work and a cerain kind of ethick to do this stuff. Sifu Tai Lik is right abou every thing he sais I was there.

you were WHERE? At NACMAF in 1990? tick, tick, tick, that castle in the sky is gonna fall very soon....

I'm sure once people read up on you, at http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43675&highlight=green+cloud+fraud

they will realize that nothign that comes out of your mouth can be taken seriously.... dear lord, if anyone is riding CTS coat tails it is YOU! While all along passing off stuff you have made up as CTS material and telling fake stories about how he adopted you as an orphan and raised you from childhood :rolleyes:

[bawang]

ok, skill levels aside, its pretty clear that lkfmdc is the only one here with his head screwed on right. green cloud dude sounds insane (really, you need to seek professional help), has worse spelling than mine, and no excuses for exposed lies. he repeats the same thing but expects a different reaction... and tai lik cant seem to think of anything other than dim sum with dave. i think he likes you.

proceed.

they are all sifus with years of experience.
You should stay the **** out of this.

[lkfmdc]

ok, skill levels aside, its pretty clear that lkfmdc is the only one here with his head screwed on right. green cloud dude sounds insane (really, you need to seek professional help), has worse spelling than mine, and no excuses for exposed lies. he repeats the same thing but expects a different reaction... and tai lik cant seem to think of anything other than dim sum with dave. i think he likes you.

proceed.

well, it appears to me all the talk of dim sum is just veiled threats. Why? I really couldnt' tell you, but it does seem he's had Gus in his ear telling him things, which is pretty funny

Again, please refer to http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43675&highlight=green+cloud+fraud

[lkfmdc]

they are all sifus with years of experience.
You should stay the **** out of this.

I'll disagree, this is a discussion forum, for everyone.... which is exactly the bone I am picking with Tai Lik.. though I suspect now (oh the irony) that he was looking for a confilct all along (what he accused me of doing)

[lkfmdc]

OK, I am about to go to sleep but to demonstrate that I call them EXACTLY as I see them, I dug through my old clippings

Tai Lik won the advanced heavyweight in 1992. I apologize.

If he had just said so, would have been easier to find :p

That being said, he should apologize and admit that I placed in 1991 (the same year that Eric won that division).

I'm sure he'll just re-invite me to dim sum, but at least I tried ...

[bawang]

I'll disagree, this is a discussion forum, for everyone.... which is exactly the bone I am picking with Tai Lik.. though I suspect now (oh the irony) that he was looking for a confilct all along (what he accused me of doing)

yes, but i know what kind of person that poster is.

you sifus all study under master Chan, you are all brothers, whoever is the elder brother should be respected regardless of what he did or happen.why is there talks of poison dim sums, and brothers acting like two faced tigers. if you want settle this settle this like man not wooman.

[Green Cloud]

Respect is what we are talking about but on this forum there is none...

[street_fighter]

yes, but i know what kind of person that poster is.

you sifus all study under master Chan, you are all brothers, whoever is the elder brother should be respected regardless of what he did or happen.why is there talks of poison dim sums, and brothers acting like two faced tigers. if you want settle this settle this like man not wooman.

alright, wasn't gonna reply to you, since i didn't want to interrupt the action, but what the **** is this? do i know you?(serious question, not a taunt) please explain to me what kind of person I am.

[Tai-Lik]

alright fellas i'm done. enough said. Good night Dave. Btw I really did want dim sum :)

[lkfmdc]

alright fellas i'm done. enough said. Good night Dave. Btw I really did want dim sum :)


maybe it's late, maybe trying to pry logic out of Gus has made me mad, but I don't understand what the above means?

[Green Cloud]

But Tai lik he couldn't handle it so he jumped on a different thread to summon his boys.

[sanjuro_ronin]

again, i think it goes back to training. two problems i often see SOME TCMA fighters facing when it comes to full contact matches.

1. They don't seem to train their own styles techniques enough for the ring.

2. Many of them get in the ring and try to kick box. Nothing wrong with kickboxing. the problem is that many of them don't have any formal boxing training. An opponent properly trained in boxing could defeat them with basic boxing fundamentals. At this point, your TCMA fighter is confused and caught between inadequate training in his traditional techniques and an immitation of boxing skills that he picked up from the Rocky movies. This is the fault of the
Sifu.

alot of the MMA schools provide professional training in boxing.

This is just one example, but some of the choy lay fut schools have done a great job in combining fundamental boxing skills with their traditional techniques and seem to be producing some really good full contact fighters. If this trend continues with other TCMA schools, you will definitely see improvement pertaining to full contact. They've accomplished this without abandoning their style and keeping their traditions, unlike some other people who were lousy, so they just gave up on TCMA.

over the past few years, i've been to several kung fu tournaments that promote full contact competitions. My hat goes off to those guys on the west coast and many schools in europe because they are producing some really good TCMA full contact fighters. Some people on this forum speak about TCMA full contact fighting when they haven't been around many of the more popular TCMA events in many years. they use there own full contact circuits and circles to judge TCMA full contact, when they know nothing about the TCMA full contact events going on around the world.

There is a really good TCMA full contact event in Gevelsberg Germany every year.;)

With all that said, some of the best fighters i have ever seen, never stepped foot in an organized full contact ring.;)

Actually the issue is that they don't fight other people of different systems so their own system, when pressure tested against others ends up "looking" like a poor-man's kick boxing.

[bawang]

alright, wasn't gonna reply to you, since i didn't want to interrupt the action, but what the **** is this? do i know you?(serious question, not a taunt) please explain to me what kind of person I am.
are you street fighter from cyberkwoon?

[sanjuro_ronin]

what a cluster **** of a thread...my head hurts from all these accusations and counter-accusations and BS and counter-BS...

You guys all need to get laid.

[rogue]

I think a lot of "The demise of TMA" is caused by all the honor stuff.

[bodhitree]

what a cluster **** of a thread...my head hurts from all these accusations and counter-accusations and BS and counter-BS...

You guys all need to get laid.

and we forgot the original intent of thread

which is better
macho macho america (mma) or totally canada macho awesome (tcma)

[lkfmdc]

While I get laid plenty, I am NOT posting any evidene of it on KFO......

[bodhitree]

While I get laid plenty, I am NOT posting any evidene of it on KFO......


liar, no proof didn't happen

[lkfmdc]

liar, no proof didn't happen

I know, I know, Gus must have told you he was there :p

[bodhitree]

and we forgot the original intent of thread

which is better
macho macho america (mma) or totally canada macho awesome (tcma)

sanjuro and i are going to have to fight, bacon vs bacon to see which pork treat is the best

[sanjuro_ronin]

and we forgot the original intent of thread

which is better
macho macho america (mma) or totally canada macho awesome (tcma)

We have lumberjacks and you know what that means...

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro and i are going to have to fight, bacon vs bacon to see which pork treat is the best

While I don't begrudge any man his sausage. it aint gonna be mine !

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[bodhitree]

I challange you to a hockey death match, winner gets all the bacon they want, american or canadian!

[lkfmdc]

according to reliabel sources, so called "Canadian bacon" is nothing but FRENCH ham :eek:

Do we want to trust anything FRENCH :mad:

[lkfmdc]

I challange you to a hockey death match



Will it be held in a NJ landfill? And can I wear my special shoes?

[bodhitree]

according to reliabel sources, so called "Canadian bacon" is nothing but FRENCH ham :eek:

Do we want to trust anything FRENCH :mad:
Yeah, I hear in Canada what they call bacon is what we call bacon, they call 'Canadian bacon' ham

Will it be held in a NJ landfill? And can I wear my special shoes?


I'll tell you now to save everyone time and energy, I'm gonna duck. I just like to issue hockey death match challanges, although I thing an ice rink is more appt than a landfill

[The Willow Sword]

Dave you really know nothing about me and i think your afraid to take a look at yourself.

you don't like people like me because we know the truth about you.


What, is he like a pederast or somethin?


All this posturing on both sides is pretty unbecoming if you ask me, its fun to read but at the same time it is very tiring. the original title of this thread was "The Demise of TMA", this back and forth is a prime example of why YET AGAIN, i agree with the statement.

I sense a challenge match coming on between the two, you guys concur? After Anthony and Abels match up it seems that the challenges have been ressurected and a good ole fashioned soap opera before the fight is in full swing.
I hope they post a video.

Peace,TWS

[lkfmdc]

I'll tell you now to save everyone time and energy, I'm gonna duck.



Don't forget to cite you complete body reconstruction, the lack of your left arm, and the fact that one leg is shorter than the other as excuse why you don't actually fight!!!!

[bodhitree]

Don't forget to cite you complete body reconstruction, the lack of your left arm, and the fact that one leg is shorter than the other as excuse why you don't actually fight!!!!

i'm gonna cite you, you just said it so I'll cite you as a source to validate it! gotcha

[lkfmdc]

i'm gonna cite you, you just said it so I'll cite you as a source to validate it! gotcha

Now, you have to make comments about an event you weren't present at and duck a few hard questions about some of your past claims... then the transformation will be complete

[Tai-Lik]

Sanjuro wrote:


Actually the issue is that they don't fight other people of different systems so their own system, when pressure tested against others ends up "looking" like a poor-man's kick boxing.


yeah i agree in some areas. it depends on the event. The TCMA full contact events i've seen in europe seem to produce fighters that would do very well in any full contact event. i think this may be due to the fact that they also fight other styles during other events, but also because they seem to have a fundamental understanding of boxing which is like the foundation of stand up when you watch these types of sporting events. The ability to box properly will add to the capabilities of their techniques in the RING. Boxing uses fundamentals in timing, distance, structure, intersecting lines, countering, attacking, economy of motion, energy conservation, footwork.... etc. that are the same or can apply to most styles. so when we're talking about TCMA in full contact, i think this should be considered.

i've to other event, where as you mentioned they obviously haven't fought or experience fighters outside their circle and the fighting was not so good.

[Tai-Lik]

no, please continue on here, you have revitalized my spirit! I remember now why I first started visiting KFM. I have no idea who's winning but Im loving every second of it. anticipating a great finale.



Sorry street fighter, it's over. no one wins.

hopefully we can stay on topic and have some constructive conversation.

my apologies to all of you for having to read all that back and forth non sense.

:)

[bodhitree]

the guy's from canada, what the hell do you call french ham? Bacon? holy gucking god.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That's it, I am going for breakfast now!!

Bacon and Ham!! Yummmyyy!! :p

[lkfmdc]

yeah i agree in some areas. it depends on the event. The TCMA full contact events i've seen in europe seem to produce fighters that would do very well in any full contact event. i think this may be due to the fact that they also fight other styles during other events, but also because they seem to have a fundamental understanding of boxing which is like the foundation of stand up when you watch these types of sporting events. The ability to box properly will add to the capabilities of their techniques in the RING. Boxing uses fundamentals in timing, distance, structure, intersecting lines, countering, attacking, economy of motion, energy conservation, footwork.... etc. that are the same or can apply to most styles. so when we're talking about TCMA in full contact, i think this should be considered.



This post I completely agree with, in fact, it looks like something I'd post

Speaking of which, I assume you remember Dana Rucker (sp?) from Goh's who combined his boxing and kung fu quite well....

I seem to remember Mike Sutton (sp?) from Tai YIm's also have very nice body shots

[bodhitree]

Canadian Bacon
is

Inferior to


REAL BACON

and don't you forget it Sanjuro and RD

*edit: not so good idea, the white don't show up so well*


[nasal] hu hu hu

teis is

FRENCH HAM

same colors hu hu hu

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Owe, my eyes hurt now...can I sue?

[Tai-Lik]

LKFMDC wrote:



I seem to remember Mike Sutton (sp?) from Tai YIm's also have very nice body shots

Good example. I think i read somewhere that Mike was made Sifu by Tai Yim along with a few others. Mike is not only a good fighter, but also a gentleman.
Mike learned how to adapt and use his TCMA in the ring. From my observation, it appeared that Mike was able to make the connection, which basicially had to do with the common fundamentals between boxing and martial arts. If you look at alot of the old TCMA fighting concepts or kuen kuits, you can see some of the same BASIC priniciples. The differences are only the shape of the action.
i think one of the problems for some TCMA fighters is that don't understand or know how to use these common priniciples. don't look at it as "oh that's boxing and we kung fu", instead pay more attention to the bodies natural and more efficient ways of movement and apply them to your technique. A straight punch alone can be applied in many different ways depending on the principle you are using. Whether it is a jik choy, chan jeurng, fu jow, or jab , it's all the same.

[lkfmdc]

One of the things that really sets me off is when someone fights, and some critic (usually sitting in the stands!) says "that's not kung fu, that's just (bad) boxing/kickboxing"

While there is ton of fluff out there, there are also prime examples still left of what traditional southern systems look like, ie Choy Lay Fut, Lama, Jow Ga, Hung Ga, Hugn Fut......

Distinct systems of course, but they also share a LOT in common....

basic fist work, straight punches, uppercuts, hooks, long hooks, over hands (and of course elbows).... parrying, shielding and slipping

now the sad part is that a lot of guys had to go to a boxing gym practice on how make this stuff work because there wasn't enough sparring in their gym and not enough drilling of this stuff... but just because they put on a pair of gloves and sparred and made the stuff work, does that mean those straight punches, uppercuts, hooks, long hooks, over hands are now "bad boxing" :confused:

if you read a lot of my posts, it is not WHAT you practice, it is HOW you practice

And in teh old days, yes, there were a lot more fighters, but that's my point! Why aren't there as many now?

[KC Elbows]

One of the things that really sets me off is when someone fights, and some critic (usually sitting in the stands!) says "that's not kung fu, that's just (bad) boxing/kickboxing"


**** straight. I'd go further and say that invariably some guy insists someone doing a completely different chinese style is "not doing kung fu", it's like they forget they DON'T DO "KUNG FU", THEY DO A STYLE WITH AN ACTUAL NAME THAT MAY HAVE SOME COMMONALITIES TO OTHER CHINESE STYLES, BUT ALSO DIFFERENCES, but no, some dipwad who thinks they are preserving tradition forgets at the drop of a hat that it's not the same style, solely so they can judge.

It also irritates me how few people who practice taoist martial arts are at all aware that superstitious taoism and philosophical taoism were not movements that liked each other, and at least in the case of the Zhuangzi, the philosophical taoists won...yet, to suggest that certain beliefs are not true is "attacking thousands of years of Chinese culture."

No one practices a style called "skill developed through hard work", except for maybe my friend's grandpa Loyd, and he wouldn't bother to beat your ass, he'd fire you on the day before Christmas and tell you to have fun at the soup kitchen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Canadian Bacon for the win baby !!

[bodhitree]

Canadian Bacon for the win baby !!

do you even realize I challanged you to a hockey death match (which I pre-duck due to mummy like condition!)

[lkfmdc]

this may very well be the strangest thread we've ever had here, and that's saying a lot! :eek:

[bodhitree]

this may very well be the strangest thread we've ever had here, and that's saying a lot! :eek:


i'm just going on about bacon because there are enough threads on this topic. If we merged all the similar themed threads there would be like 3 or 4 threads left in the gosh diddley arned place.

[rogue]

What's Canadian bacon without flan?

Flan, it's what the Dali Lama eats.

[lkfmdc]

if I were on the computer with photoshop, oh man, the possibilities! :p

[bodhitree]

if I were on the computer with photoshop, oh man, the possibilities! :p


hey the threads will still be here (hopefully)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Prime bacon baby !!

[SevenStar]

What's Canadian bacon without flan?

Flan, it's what the Dali Lama eats.

I thought he ate veggie burgers and "not dogs"?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why is Flan being brought into this?

[rogue]

Because FLAN is the perfect food. Meat eaters love flan, vegetarians love flan and even the Pope loves flan.

Flan, it's what the astronauts eat.

[rogue]

And don't forget flan has things going for it that bacon doesn't: flanilingus, flanatio, flanification, the dirty flancez, the flan job, the f-spot, flanal sex and flanage a toi.

What's Canadian bacon have?

Flan, it's what the porn stars eat.

[bodhitree]

rogue

RD is a canadianist scum, he is trying to undermine the security of this country, he is a FRENCH HAM


The authorities will get you

can an bee-con has begun

[Mano Mano]

rogue

RD is a canadianist scum, he is trying to undermine the security of this country, he is aFRENCH HAM


The authorities will get you

can an bee-con has begun
You should just chill, go to the fridge & get yourself a nice ice cold beer, then for afters get yourself 2 slices of bread & have nice beercan sandwich.

[Green Cloud]

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;806844]oh Lord - I usually stay away from commenting on non-topic related stuff, but this is too much:

please give us all a break with your Oliver Twist stories - you had elective hip replacement surgery, no one was stuffing your entrails back in at a combat field hospital; and it is not debilitating, it is not even considered serious on the continuum of surgical procedures - it's actually about as standard as you can get (in fact, the type of hip surgery you had was a relatively newer procedure that is minimally invasive, and requires much less recovery time afterwards); furthermore, if you were "out of your mind", it had nothing to do with the procedure itself - maybe it served you to have some sort of PTSD-like behavior in some way, but sorry, I've known plenty of people the same and even twice your age who have had the exact procedure and were perfectly well adjusted afterwards - in fact, the vast majority of people who have it are totally dang happy afterwards because they can actually walk without pain (remember the article I sent you about the Kenpo instructor who had it and was able to teach / train again?)


sadly, this just another example of how you misrepresent the circumstances of your life to try and justify your immature and disorganized behavior patterns...[/QUOT

Youre right Chris this has nothing to do with the topic related to this thread. Sounds to me like you have some unresolved issues with me.

let's discuss it over yum cha. Or should we discuss it like we did years ago and close the doors to my school like we did years ago, that I so kindly let you train in.

[Green Cloud]

Can we now go back to the topic of conversation here??:confused:

[Green Cloud]

Oh yea Chris my little training brother as far as the Oliver Twist stories, Just go on you tube and see how sorry I'm feeling for my self.

What is ashame here,, is that you are a physical therapist and I got to tell you your bed side manner sucks.

I'ts obvious to me that you have issues, maybe you me and dave can go to group therapy:D

[Green Cloud]

Here's the deal boys I just want to stay on the topic of why you guys think Kung FU sucks but yet you guys seem to cling on the Past You Know CTS's coat tails. You guys seem to like to go off topic and start our stupid family bikering. Honestly I think people on this Forum are bored of this crap. Ok let the personal attacks begin.

[lkfmdc]

Let's review

1. You are a blatant liar. Can you please tell us what "10 black belts" you hold? the question that you've ducked for along time now, because you can't answer it

2. Your grandfather was a famous Pankration fighter? LMFAO... the history channel's "Human Weapon" show interviewed the Pankration people in Greece on a recent show. They stated they recreated the art based upon research but there was NO PANKRATION IN GREECE BEFORE 1982

3. Where were you a 2 time full contact champion? Funny, that bio sounds a lot like Steve Ventura's and mine, wouldn't be the first time you stole someone else's credentials

4. What was Chan Tai San's nickname for you? Oh, that's right, it's "mo gei sing" or "mr no memory" because you couldn't remember anything he taught you. That's why you are still trying to pass of kenpo, wing chun and jeet kune do as what Chan Tai San taught

5. What happened teh only two times you put students into full contact competition? Oh, yes, they lost...

6. I noticed you threated Chris Jurak, are you back to challenging people again? Please be direct so we can address this issue

7. Why does your web site have somethign I wrote, coped word for word, with no reference to the source?

8. Why are you the ONLY person who studied with CTS who doesn't speak Cantonese? Considering Sifu Chan didn't speak English, sort of raises questions about how you learned much?

9. You claim to have opened the first school on long island, what do you think Mike Manganiello will say about that? Dear lord, years ago I interceded on your part to save your hide when he wanted to go after you, I should have let him clip you back then

10. If anyone is living of CTS it's you. You claim to have been raised by him, you claim to represent him, you claim to teach his material (all BS by the way). You claim to represent the "Green Cloud Monastery". The CLEAR cloud monastery doesn't even exist anymore, it's a pile of bricks in China.

You're a fraud, and a lunatic, and anyone reading your posts can see it

Now, try and ramble on about how I'm rich, Chris is educated, etc to make up for your poor grammar, inability to spell, inability to remember basic facts or to write a coherent sentence

Oh, and in closing, for a guy who lived with his parents until he was in his mid to late 30's it's sort of funny that you want to make an issue out of the fact that my parents paid for my first year of college

[Green Cloud]

Wow Dave don't know where to beging here. First I have made no claims on the forum. As far as my bio it is what it is on my site, Proving the styles I studied have no bearing since you know diplomas are worth no more than the paper that they are written on.

My rep is based on my years of hard work and so is my skill, not my EGO. I have produced many quality skilled Martial artist and that's evident in the many Martial Arts competitions that they have been seen at.

As far as Pancration is concerned that is just what MMA is called in Greece not Roman Greco or UFC or anything else we give credit to where this sort of thing started.

Trying to prove my Grand fathers rep who is passed away is like trying to prove the many legendary stories about CTS that you couldn't prove either.

My association with you was a long time ago and only for a short time, I trained with my sifu way after you guys forgot about him.

The first real Chan Tai San school was opened by me and my partner, not you we just let you train there.

What traditional tournaments di you ever come to and what traditional student's did you produce of any value???

I admitt back in those days I was travelling a lot so I can pay the bills while you were taking pictures with people so you can say,,, look at me I stood next to YC wong or Jhon funk and got a picture in.

You seem to be stuck in the past my friend and a couple of NACMAF tourney that we played no important part in.

As far as being in a Masters Demo in NAKMAF that's a joke, How could we have been in a masters demo it was for masters not lowly students that we were. CTS was in the demo we were just assisting him. You know holding bricks and such.

As far as anything that has been done in the past it wasn't by you. I will admit that you did write some articles and you did contribute as a writer back than. The running of schools Demos and Tournaments well that wasn't you you were merely an assistant.

As far as speaking chinese I agree your grasp of the language is better than mine as if that has anything to do with Marial Art skill:rolleyes:

What have you done since 1990 Dave??? Don't try to say you taught Kung FU nor did you run a Kwoon.

I know You try to make people believe that you ran Lama Gung Fu in the city but we all know that's distorted Bull ****, that was Steve Ventura's school.

As far as competitions are concerned I compete in them way back when there were any Kung Fu tornaments. Guys like Si jo Crayton Raoul Ortiz Steven Ventura and others including me were out there doing Kung Fu competeing against Karate guys.

You on the other hand Just opened your first MMA school a few years ago and I would like to know what MMA experience you have what San Da experience you have except for the one event that you were tossed out of the ring. My God what a sad embarassment that was for all of us.

You my friend are just a writer not a real Chinese Martial Artist and that's quite evident. And nothing more than a small time promoter. That's why none of the events that you promote are ever covered in any magazine or aired on T.V.

As far as my students loosing at your events, what a joke came to two events fo San Da and you had no one for them to fight.

In closing this is all I have to say, The only thing you have is this BLOG on th kung fu forum and nothing else and you my friend are the demise of Chinese Martial Arts.

[B-Rad]

As far as speaking chinese I agree your grasp of the language is better than mine as if that has anything to do with Marial Art skill
It allows you to ask questions and receive training tips/advice, it's easier for the teacher to correct mistakes on the fly, and so on. Not to mention learn the history and tradition of your art, knowledge of past practices and so on if you're practicing traditional martial art. If your teacher only speaks Chinese then you're going to miss out a lot on certain things, and those that do speak Chinese will have a definite advantage. My last teacher only spoke Chinese, and those that understood him tended to advance faster. Luckily, we did have some good translators for guys like me, but that could get tedious sometimes. That's why I'm trying to learn Chinese now.

[lkfmdc]

Wow Dave don't know where to beging here.



You could begin by addressing one of the many questions presented. It's clear from your web page that you make claims which SCREAM "highly unlikely" and that's being nice

In fact, a number of people, not just me, have called you a LIAR

The fact that you can't even address ANY of these questions is sort of strange don't you think?

So, AGAIN, what "10 black belts" do you hold and where were you a "2 time full contact champion?





My rep is based on my years of hard work and so is my skill, not my EGO. I have produced many quality skilled Martial artist and that's evident in the many Martial Arts competitions that they have been seen at.



When we met you, you were such a "successful martial artist" that you were sellling steak knives out the trunk of your car and living with your parents.

You've lived the entire rest of you life off the fact you studied with Chan Tai San. Even then, you've lost schools, had to move, etc

I wonder, if you offer such quality training, why did your senior student Ivan go and get certified by BOTH the Krav Maga people and by Bas Rutten?




Trying to prove my Grand fathers rep who is passed away is like trying to prove the many legendary stories about CTS that you couldn't prove either.



There are newspaper clippings of Chan Tai San, there are awards that were given to him, there was a video of him,

As I'm sure even Tai Lik can confirm, when Chan Tai San went to Chinese tournaments, everyone knew him. Tai Yim used to call him "Si Suk"

and of course when Mike traveled to China, a good 25 or more years since Chan Tai San had left, there were still people talking about Chan Tai San

As for your grandfather, you claim he did an art that didn't exist when he was alive, and the only source is your CLAIM

Just like the only source of your black belts and full contact titles is your CLAIM :rolleyes:




My association with you was a long time ago and only for a short time, I trained with my sifu way after you guys forgot about him.



Do you really think that just posting something here is going to convince people that it is true?

I was with sifu a few days before he passed, I was in constant contact with him

IN FACT, WE ARE THE ONES WHO INFORMED YOU THAT HE HAD PASSED




What traditional tournaments di you ever come to and what traditional student's did you produce of any value???



LMFAO, you got beat over the head with this one already once before....

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/tournament.jpg
NACMAF 1992

with the exception of you and Steve Ventura, every person in that picture was my student. We won 14 trophies that day, equally distributed over forms, weapons and sparring

You even got ****ed because Brian Manolfi won using a monkey set I taught him while when you did your money in San Francisco you didn't even place :rolleyes:

Of course, I could point out the obvious, I train CHAMPIONS
Currently I have the USKBA welterweight US Thai boxing champion, the middleweight US amateur MMA champion and the NY State women's submission grapping champion. I had a guy offered a K-1 MAX contract

If you want to compare abilities as a coach, let's set up your students vs mine in ANY STYLE OF FIGHTING YOU WANT

It will amusing, short, but amusing





As far as being in a Masters Demo in NAKMAF that's a joke, How could we have been in a masters demo it was for masters not lowly students that we were. CTS was in the demo we were just assisting him. You know holding bricks and such.



AGAIN, I was in the masters' demo in 1990

YOU HADN'T EVEN MET CHAN TAI SAN THEN
YOU WEREN"T THERE :rolleyes:

I posted both the picture and the program





What have you done since 1990 Dave???



1. Published over 50 articles on the system, which you plagarized for your site

2. Opened a school that last year made $279,000

3. Trained 19 national champions, 3 world champions in various forms of fighting

4. Set up san da training systems (http://www.sanda-mma.com) and produced a set of instructional DVD's that have been universally praised and which some claim have changed the entire way they train

5. Oh, yeah, ran kung fu tournaments in 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997

6. Promoted more than 25 fighting shows

7. Done events at Mohegan Sun Casino

8. Cornered pro fighters at the Tropicana in Atlantic City

Do you want me to go on?




As far as my students loosing at your events,



LMFAO, "Battle at the Boarwalk" wasn't my event in any way.... your students tried to do point sparring crap in a full contact venue and got CRUSHED

You were so embarassed you brought some more to the USKBA event, where they alos got KO'ed

What was embarassing was when my student Yohei Ishida won his division, you ran around saying "yeah, Chan Tai San students kick butt" like you had something to do with it or are in any way affiliated with me :rolleyes:

So, AGAIN, were you challenging Chris to a fight? I want you to man up and say directly yes or no so we can address this issue head on

[mkriii]

Ok guys I'm kinda new on this forum so who is Green Cloud? Where is this guys school? Also who is lkfmdc? Where is your school located? I was reading your all's posts and all I can say is wow. Definetely some tension going on between you guys. I would like to know what ten black belt Green Cloud has and where he was a chmpion at? It does sound suspicious that he hasn't answered these questions.

[lkfmdc]

I would like to know what ten black belt Green Cloud has and where he was a chmpion at? It does sound suspicious that he hasn't answered these questions.

especially considering they have been asked over and over again :rolleyes:

Who am I?
Follow the links below (my sig line)

[mkriii]

ok I have looked at the links below your signature. So your Davis Ross? From what I have read and by your web sites that you have listed I tend to find you more credible than Green Cloud. where is his proof to these claims? I saw the picture of your various champions so that says something about you and your teaching ability. Who is Green Cloud? What style does he tech or promote?

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Green cloud has his website too and clips on youtube.

[lkfmdc]

Who is Green Cloud? What style does he tech or promote?


This is his web site http://www.greencloud.net/

Look it over then look at this thread http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43675&highlight=green+cloud+fraud

Then note that in a YEAR, he hasn't addressed a single question raised :rolleyes:

[cjurakpt]

So, AGAIN, were you challenging Chris to a fight? I want you to man up and say directly yes or no so we can address this issue head on

Dave, as far as I am aware, his offer to meet behind "closed doors" was rather straight forward, so there's no need to make a big deal out of it, I think he has made it abundantly clear as to what his intentions are; as such, I replied to him as befits his offer, and if he wishes to respond he will, and then we will proceed accordingly; there is no need to turn it into some sort of on-line p1ssing contest with the accompanying bluster, qualifications, obligatory waffles and re-negs: it will simply be handled as needs be;

[mantis7]

i'm not going to bother to check... but didn't he make veiled challenges to both of you? (felt an urge to stir the pot)


You all can make it a 2 on1 fight. Ross and Cj versus Greenie (removed:) This could be a new fighting trend!

FIXED A TYPO THAT ALMOST CAUSED A NEW FACTION TO JOIN THE FRAY
Had to remove the Tai-lik it made the stew too salty

[lkfmdc]

i'm not going to bother to check... but didn't he make veiled challenges to both of you? (felt an urge to stir the pot)

The short version = he challenged me, I accepted, 4 hours later he backed out, then claimed I was picking on him because he was a cripple :rolleyes:

Now he's challenging Chris, who is not a full time martial artist and primarily does Tai Chi for health benefits

Of course, even his challenge to Chris has 1001 conditions....

[mantis7]

Ross,


Just to make sure, is the same Gus who taught/teaches monkey gung fu?
The one people used to refer to as monkey Gus?

[mantis7]

STIR DA POT STIR DA POT...........

Hey Mr. Gus,

Can you tell us about your background in the quote below :) inquiring minds want to know!



Dai Sing Pek Gwa is a combination of the secret fighting Kung-Fu system Shaolin Pek Gwa and the rare art of Dai Sing. Kao Sze created Dai Sing while observing the monkey guards during his imprisionment of eight years. After he left the prison, he combined the techniques of Shaolin Pek Gwa he learned from a Shaolin Monk with his new developed system Dai Sing thus creating the new style Dai Sing Pek Gwa.

Training in Dai Sing Pek Gwa requires great flexibility in order to perform the movements of the forms. There are five major forms in Dai Sing Pek Gwa: the Drunken Monkey, the Lost Monkey, the Stone Monkey, the Wooden Monkey, and the Standing Monkey. Each form is unique to each other, having their own techniques and advantages.

Movements of Dai Sing Pek Gwa mostly imitate the movements of a monkey.But aside from he imitations of monkeys, Dai Sing Pek Gwa also uses the deadly teachniques of Saholin Pek Gwa, like the downward chopping arm attacks. ALl in all Dai Sing Pek Gwa is a deceiving, deadly and effective style of Kung-Fu.

Today Dai Sing Pek Gwa is a very popular style, not just in China, but also in the other Western Countries. It is an advanced style of Kung-Fu that requires the student's dedication in practice, training and time. Learning this art improves one's physical fitness, flexibility, mental awareness and self-defense techniques.

[lkfmdc]

Ross,

Just to make sure, is the same Gus who taught/teaches monkey gung fu?
The one people used to refer to as monkey Gus?

Same person....

By the way, Re "Tai Lik". I am told by hing-dai he's an ok guy and did something very nice for my deceased sifu. It just seems that Gus has talked in his ear a lot over the years. So as far as I am concerned, as of now, we don't have any major issues

[mantis7]

Oh and to stir the pot a little bit more :)

Diplomas or certifications do not mean much but they are an artifact. They can be used to create a paper trail leading back to authentication by evaluating the original content the degrees graded.

If you say you have all those rankings then a simple posting of whom issued the rank, when it was issued, the style it was issued in, could easily disprove anything Ross is saying.

When you refuse to supply such credentials, especially as a professional martial arts instructor, you seem less then earnest in your advertising information.

Now to stir the pot even more: I love a good pot stirring!


Sifu Gus Kaparos began his training at the age of 6 and is a direct disciple of Grandmaster Chan Tai San.

This statement is just misleading... the reader can misconstrue the information and think you were a student of CTS since you were six.



He has instructor level ranking in over 10 styles of martial arts.

Please list :) not to hard would take you all of ten mins.


This 2 time full contact fighting champion met Si-Gung in the late 1980's.

When exactly? what organizations? What was your fight record? Who did you win the championship from?

Thank you

[mkriii]

Great questions from mantis7. I'm am looking forward to his response. Those seem like easy questions to answer if the statements he made are indeed true.
By the way, I like stirring the pot too. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, the demise of TMA is because people stir pots ??
:eek:

[Lucas]

So, the demise of TMA is because people stir pots ??
:eek:

hey as long as they dont add the carrots too soon im cool, man i hate me a mushy carrot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

vegetables must be "al dente" or harder, never mushy.
Mushy = lack of chi.

[mantis7]

no no no.... when you stir the pot it becomes a symbol of chi and its wholesome stirrrrriness. The demise happens when you let all the rumors and bs sink to the bottom.

[mantis7]

I seriously want to know who taught him his monkey kung fu with evidence backing up his claims! I pray he is not another Paulie ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

If it doesn't involve slinging poo, it isn't real monkey kung fu.

[Lucas]

If it doesn't involve slinging poo, it isn't real monkey kung fu.

rotten food stuffs works too

[lkfmdc]

I seriously want to know who taught him his monkey kung fu with evidence backing up his claims! I pray he is not another Paulie ;)

As Mike Parrella said in an older thread, he first met a guy named Liam who had done "monkey" with Gus... after we visited Liam in Florida, Mike got Gus' number and called him up and that's when we met Gus...

Being from several traditional lineages, I asked Gus where he learned Monkey? I'd been in Chinatown for a long time and didn't know a monkey school?

Two stories stand out

The first was already mentioned in the other thread. Gus claimed he studied in Central Park for 10 years with an old Chinese man. Now mind you, Gus grew up in Long Island... central park?? And of course, Gus didn't know the old man's name because it was a "secret"....

Next, Gus pulled out "Mad Monkey" on video and told us his form was EXACTLY like one of the sequences in the movie....

Exactly like a sequence in a movie? Maybe the correct word is COPIED from the movie...

Of course, when Mike opened the Mineola school Gus' friend from Highschool showed up... Chris Bruce.... Chris said he and Gus MADE UP the forms after watching the shaw brother's movies

This is another post Mike made in regards to Gus' "moneky"

"CTS TAUGHT HIM 1 1/2 OTHER MONKEY FORMS, WHICH I LEARNED AS WELL. CTS MADE THEM SIMPLE BECAUSE HE SAID THAT GUS COULDN'T DO ANYTHING ADVANCED AND HE COULDN'T REMEMBER ANYTHING. SO THE FORMS WERE SOME WUSHU MONKEY WITH SOME TRADITIONAL THINGS MIXED IN. I BET GUS DOESN"T EVEN KNOW THAT. >>>>>>>>>>>> I CAN' POST VIDEOs OF GUS LEARNING, OR SHOULD I SAY 'STRUGGLING' THROUGH THEM IF HE'D LIKE, BUT I'M GUESSING ...NOT.

The monkey forms he puts up on his website are not from CTS"

[mantis7]

The way i see it, if you cant prattle off the systems you have a cert in or name the teachers who taught you then you are talking out of your ass. :eek:


Dam that is a shame if he is offering monkey kung fu as a system and all he really has is a movie montage to offer.

I always love those people, they say : I learned XYZ from this guy but I can't tell you his name or where he is from its a secret" Come on! At least make up a good story give me something for my buck.

[lkfmdc]

The way i see it, if you cant prattle off the systems you have a cert in or name the teachers who taught you then you are talking out of your ass. :eek:


Dam that is a shame if he is offering monkey kung fu as a system and all he really has is a movie montage to offer.

I always love those people, they say : I learned XYZ from this guy but I can't tell you his name or where he is from its a secret" Come on! At least make up a good story give me something for my buck.

BTW, Mike's quotes, along with more damaging info about Gus, can be found at http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=715619#post715619

[mantis7]

here is some carrots for da pot.


And yes, Gus used to claim that he learned some White Ape style and Tai Chi from some anyonomous guy in a park in NYC. This was a joke and never proven to be true. Then he told me he learned all his monkey style from a guy named Chris Bruce. I had lunch one day with Chris Bruce and Gus in an IHOP and when I asked Chris Bruce where he learned the monkey kf that he taught GUS, he said, and I quote; "Sometimes, the best teacher is self." He then admitted that he picked up some stuff from movies. He said to my face, that he never had ANY formal martial arts training. Gus was devastated and whanever I brought it up again, he'd get all bent out of shape. Actually, he was kindof in denial about it for a long time afterwards.

[mantis7]

omg that thread delivers.....This is gonna be a nice beef stew!




Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wading river N.Y.
Posts: 1,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
So which is it? On the other thread you want to fight Friday, now you want to come to CT?

Oh, but let's not forget, you just agreed to fight with one hand tied behind your back... and I just accepted. So whereever the fight is, I get to wear steel toe combat boots and you have to fight with a hand tied behind your back. And if Mike wants, he can fight you at the same time. So he can hold you down while I stomp on you, "no rules" is what you wanted... and you just agreed to those terms


Yup that's what I said can't you read english I will see you at the Mohegan sun.
Reply With Quote

[Tai-Lik]

i'm not going to bother to check... but didn't he make veiled challenges to both of you? (felt an urge to stir the pot)


You all can make it a 2 on2 fight. Ross and Cj versus Greenie and Tai-lik:) This could be a new fighting trend!

FIXED A TYPO THAT ALMOST CAUSED A NEW FACTION TO JOIN THE FRAY

LKFMDC (Dave Ross) and i are cool.

[mantis7]

Sigh.. get me a spoon so I can remove the Tai-lik from the stew. Tali-lik removed from the stew. I need more spices!!! Someone call Ross a mcdojo ***** and claim CTS as their step-father!!!!!

Edited Tai-Lik out of my post.

[lkfmdc]

By the way, Re "Tai Lik". I am told by hing-dai he's an ok guy and did something very nice for my deceased sifu. It just seems that Gus has talked in his ear a lot over the years. So as far as I am concerned, as of now, we don't have any major issues

re-postred in case this was not understood (or noticed)

[lkfmdc]

I'll save people some reading, this quote sums up what happened in the other thread in which Gus challenged me, bet knifefighter $50 I was too scared to respond and then backed out


Wow! Speed backpedaling... challenge issued; date, place and time accepted; excuses made; backout completed. All in less tha 24 hours.

Looks like I was right... as always.

You can keep the $50.00... it was worth it to see you show your true colors.

[cjurakpt]

Someone...claim CTS as their step-father!!!!!


unfortunately, we haven't seen John Takeshi around much of late, so that will not be happening anytime soon...

[Larro]

This is his web site http://www.greencloud.net/



http://www.youtube.com/GreenCloudKungFu

[Larro]

Pankration is an ancient sport and a martial art introduced in the Greek Olympic games in 648 BC. Pankration bouts were quite brutal and sometimes life-threatening to the competitors. As a result, a paides event (a somewhat vague younger age group) for pankration wasn't established at Olympia until 200 B.C.

TV = idiot box
but so are computers now.

[lkfmdc]

Pankration is an ancient sport and a martial art introduced in the Greek Olympic games in 648 BC. Pankration bouts were quite brutal and sometimes life-threatening to the competitors. As a result, a paides event (a somewhat vague younger age group) for pankration wasn't established at Olympia until 200 B.C.



you do realize there is not a single verifiable source to conclude that the original system practiced in ancient Greece survived until today? The people IN GREECE claiming to do it say they re-dsicovered it, by piecing the techniques back togehter from historical records and artwork, and only did so after 1982

[golden arhat]

here's a pic from the end of the NACMAF masters' demo,
from left to right Anthony Goh, Tai Yim, Ken Lo, YC Wong, Chan Tai San, ME, the sifu from UK, John Funk and Nick Gracien



i see only umpa lumpas

[golden arhat]

just fine dave come on by and vist and I'l show how how good my hip replacement was. The fact is youre full of **** and yea toche I have to admitt you got the best of me on this forum when I was in a wheel chair. I'm just fine now go and post anything you want, everything is you post is a fabricated BS any way.

u said u wouldnt post on this forum again

what happened to that

?

[golden arhat]

they are all sifus with years of experience.
You should stay the **** out of this.

its a discussion forum

ppl come here to discuss

i or he can say whatever we like


so yeah fuc k you buddy :D

[rogue]

you do realize there is not a single verifiable source to conclude that the original system practiced in ancient Greece survived until today? The people IN GREECE claiming to do it say they re-dsicovered it, by piecing the techniques back togehter from historical records and artwork, and only did so after 1982

Yeah right, and next you'll be telling us that Chris Clugstron didn't Re-discover the Fighting System Used By The Gladiators In Ancient Rome That Is Super-Easy To Learn And MEGA-Easy To Use - And It Kicks Butt On Every Other Martial Art Ever Created. It Even Beats Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune. :rolleyes:

Dohttp://www.safetytechnology.com/clugston.htm

[lkfmdc]

u said u wouldnt post on this forum again

what happened to that ?

Gus apparently thinks no one remembers :rolleyes:

His new story is how someone took advantage of him while he was "in a wheelchair"

This is the start http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43499&page=37

Notice that Gus challenged me, there was NEVER any mention of him being in a wheelchair, and notice how quickly he starts ducking out of the fight

[cjurakpt]

they are all sifus with years of experience.
You should stay the **** out of this.

by that logic, shouldn't you as well?

[specialed]

Gus apparently thinks no one remembers :rolleyes:

His new story is how someone took advantage of him while he was "in a wheelchair"

This is the start http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43499&page=37

Notice that Gus challenged me, there was NEVER any mention of him being in a wheelchair, and notice how quickly he starts ducking out of the fight

lkfmdc, if you're such a badass, why not pop in on greencloud and teach him who the real tough guy is? you have that gracie belt now after all:rolleyes: you're such a fake.

[specialed]

Gus apparently thinks no one remembers :rolleyes:

His new story is how someone took advantage of him while he was "in a wheelchair"

This is the start http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43499&page=37

Notice that Gus challenged me, there was NEVER any mention of him being in a wheelchair, and notice how quickly he starts ducking out of the fight

who's the internet tough guy now? go show the world your sandammagracie skills bigmouth.

[lkfmdc]

lkfmdc, if you're such a badass, why not pop in on greencloud and teach him who the real tough guy is? you have that gracie belt now after all:rolleyes: you're such a fake.

LMFAO, dude, you're a bore.... anyone can read the thread and watch Gus squirm for pages and pages, excuse after excuse... his "last word" was he was coming to Mohegan Sun and guess what, he never showed :rolleyes:

[specialed]

LMFAO, dude, you're a bore.... anyone can read the thread and watch Gus squirm for pages and pages, excuse after excuse... his "last word" was he was coming to Mohegan Sun and guess what, he never showed :rolleyes:


chicken

you talk tough, but who's hiding behind thier keyboard?

[lkfmdc]

chicken

you talk tough, but who's hiding behind thier keyboard?

he challenged me, I accepted, he backed out, I'm the chicken?

you're brilliant, really you are :rolleyes:

Knifefighter summarized it well

Wow! Speed backpedaling... challenge issued; date, place and time accepted; excuses made; backout completed. All in less tha 24 hours.

Looks like I was right... as always.

You can keep the $50.00... it was worth it to see you show your true colors.


Does Gus want to continue this? Really? Does he want to?

[cjurakpt]

but who's hiding behind thier keyboard?

well, actually, it's you, since you are unwilling to reveal your name, background, style, whereabouts, etc.

oh, sorry, in language you'd understand:

cluck cluck ba-WAHK cluck

now feel free to make the standard, nigh obligatory "oh, look which of Dave's lackies / underlings / sycophants just showed up" (you really are getting predictable...)

[specialed]

he challenged me, I accepted, he backed out, I'm the chicken?

you're brilliant, really you are :rolleyes:

Knifefighter summarized it well



Does Gus want to continue this? Really? Does he want to?


oh please,:rolleyes: you two live close enough, just get in a car and go over there. settle it like men. what are you afraid of? you're supposed to be mr. super mma kung fu sand da knowitall. you can't really be afraid of the guy you've been trying to bully for well over a year? can you?

[bawang]

by that logic, shouldn't you as well?

i apologize, it a misunderstanding between me and streetfighter and i was angry from strong rice juice

[lkfmdc]

oh please,:rolleyes: you two live close enough, just get in a car and go over there. settle it like men. what are you afraid of? you're supposed to be mr. super mma kung fu sand da knowitall. you can't really be afraid of the guy you've been trying to bully for well over a year? can you?

yawn, you really are a huge bore so this will be my last response to you (please savor it!)

I should drive 3 hours out of my way after he challenged me a year ago and then promptly backed out? Anyone can read the thread, if you have a minute it's a laugh riot

Like I said, you're brilliant....

[cjurakpt]

oh please,:rolleyes: you two live close enough, just get in a car and go over there. settle it like men. what are you afraid of? you're supposed to be mr. super mma kung fu sand da knowitall. you can't really be afraid of the guy you've been trying to bully for well over a year? can you?

your instigation-fu is lacking...

[specialed]

I am a disciple of the late Chan Tai San, a true master of Chinese martial art

...and afraid to drive across town to fight someone... wind bag:rolleyes:

[Larro]

...and afraid to drive across town to fight someone... wind bag:rolleyes:

I heard Gus showed up at his school and he wouldn't come out, and that the people at the desk were saying that he wasn't in while he hiding in his office... but i have no proof of this..:D

[golden arhat]

I heard Gus showed up at his school and he wouldn't come out, and that the people at the desk were saying that he wasn't in while he hiding in his office... but i have no proof of this..:D

from where ?
who ?
or did u just make it up ?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I heard Gus showed up at his school and he wouldn't come out, and that the people at the desk were saying that he wasn't in while he hiding in his office... but i have no proof of this..:D

Dave doesn't have an office, lol.
His front desk is his office.
And if I'm correct, except for the instructors who work for him, he doesn't have any 'people.

Gus didn't show up at his school.

Gus didn't didn't challenge Dave while he was in a wheel chair. He turned his own challenge around and hid behind his injury.

Gus DID agree to stay off the forum approximately one year ago, in exchange for something. It looks like he has broken that agreement and did so by attacking Dave.

He comes out of nowhere here and jumps into a discussion which Tai-Lik was having with LKFMDC...


Sifu Tai lik is on the money, Dave is full of ****. Jumping ino pictures and riding on Chan tai sans tail coats means nothing. The truth is Dave Ross can't light a candle to tai liks jock strap, this is a stupid mute conversation. Erick hard Grove,, give me a break that doode won by holywooding through the whole tourney. Definision of holywooding - pretending that youre hert so you can win. I haven't been on this forum for a while but please. Stop riding on Sifu's coat tails and prostitutig his name so you can justify your existance Dave.

This was unprovoked. And the spelling/grammer is...well....a 'mute' point? (just trying to lighten up the mood)

This is exactly what happened last time.

Gus should mind his own business and stay out of other people's discussions when they do not pertain to him. If the discussion was ABOUT HIM, I would/could understand him jumping in. But it wasn't. It had nothing to do with him at all.


Personally, I have resigned myself NOT to participate in any more flame-wars on this or any other forum. Other than having Gus off the forum, I wasn't happy with the result of last years' melee. Although I felt certain non-facts were brought to light, some have yet to be verified.

Here it is; Some people have accomplishments, some people have facts, some people have stories, some have delusions. Arguing about them here, accomplishes little.

This feuds are a little fun at first, but if you are a forward-moving-person, they can be very distracting and extremely consuming.