Forms or Not Forms

[Sal Canzonieri]

I was just watching a video of a talk by Chen Xiao Wang, in it he said (losely translated:) that the frame (the form) is just to learn how to execute the movements correctly, after you are skillful with it, after your energy is correct, you must discard the frame, because if you do the exact postures of the frame in a self defense situation, you will get beaten down.

So, I think this is saying that the frame (a form) is a means to an end, it is a vehicle, a memory device, but without the fundamental body mechanics being correct, it is of no value. Once you are able to achieve a skill, like one permanently learns how to ride a bike (even if someone hasn't ridden in 10-20 years, he can still ride if given a bike), then you don't need the training wheels anymore, you "have it".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms sever many purposes, fighting isn't one of them per say.
The are great to familiarize yourself with a system.
The are great as a benchmark for progression.
They allow for a class environment in the MA.
Many systems use them to introduce new technoques, etc, etc.

Are forms needs for fighting?
NO.
Can they even b e counter-productive to fighting?
YES.
Are forms useless?
NO.
Are forms needed?
Depends on what you use them for.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I see forms as a way to record the systems core techniques, and favorite combos. I also see them as tools for solo practice to help maintain conditioning, and to refine the body mechanics.

Based on that, Refining body mechanics infers you already have them, developed through drills.
When I say Maintain conditioning, that also means already developed through other means.

I think that learning two man drills, sparring with the techniques in the form, and then learning the sequence only after you are good at fighting with the techniques is how it should be done.

[lkfmdc]

The major problem with learning forms is that when you are learning a new one, if the power goes off, and your VHS machine doesn't work, how do you finsih the form? :eek:

I think the answer is obvious, have an identity for the rest of the forum and a special one just for this part

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the answer is obvious, have an identity for the rest of the forum and a special one just for this part

Reply]
What?

[lkfmdc]

oh relax, I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee yet... I was being funny, or trying

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am relaxed...i really didn't understand what you meant?

[lkfmdc]

I am relaxed...i really didn't understand what you meant?


arent you just "royal dragon" on the other sub forums but you are RD's alias here?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

[Pigs in space}Oh!! I got it nnnnnow!! [/pigs in space]

Yes, I am both identities. This one is a secret one for trolling though. No one is supposed to know I am really Royal Dragon :D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What I want to know, is why 6 months have gone by and I STILL cannot post on the main forum, with my main profile!! :mad:

[lkfmdc]

What I want to know, is why 6 months have gone by and I STILL cannot post on the main forum, with my main profile!! :mad:

it's a conspiracy....

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I believe that. I hardly ever posted on the other forums prior to this...I think it's a conspiracy to force me to post on the other ones.

[bodhitree]

I believe that. I hardly ever posted on the other forums prior to this...I think it's a conspiracy to force me to post on the other ones.


yeah we want you to post on any forum :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I just spoke to Gene, and he says as long as your posts are strictly about Canadian bacon he can restore your account here.... but ONLY Canadian bacon, maybe French ham, but certainly not flap jacks

[SPJ]

you must discard the frame, because if you do the exact postures of the frame in a self defense situation, you will get beaten down.



this a debate 4ever.

1. if you practice a single move everyday such as half step Beng quan (xing Yi), you are a master of the move. you may defeat the opponent with the single move. all the other moves are set up for you to do your ultimate move be it left upper cut etc.

2. no, you may never defeat anyone with a single move. you need several moves in combo and variants of them. b/c if you fight as expected, you will be countered.
several moves/postures together or a set up combo is called Zhao.

yes you never defeat anyone with a single posture/shi in the forms. you need to vary orders and construe several postures together or Zhao.

which is a high level of integration or how to interchage among moves/shi.

you change according to the opponent's countermove.

in short, we defeat the opponent with a set up.

the other school is that.

you only have to do the single move fast enough, powerful enough, timely enough, you defeat the opponent with a single blow and end the fight,

so a set up of a few moves vs a decisive single blow,

this is a debate going on 4ever.

:D:eek::confused::rolleyes::cool::)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

MMMMMmm Baaaacccccoooonnnnnnn!!!!! :p

[SPJ]

1. forms are postures in a sequence.

the purpose is to practice all the single postures in a bundle.

2. on the other hand to use them for fighting.

we have to practice to place a few postures in a "logical" order.

so practice a short combo or variants of combo.

that would be "closer" to apps in fighting.

3. sparring is the only way to test our skills with a single move or combo.

--

:)

[bodhitree]

MMMMMmm Baaaacccccoooonnnnnnn!!!!! :p



wrong, it should read


MMMMMmm CCCAAAANNNNAAAADDDDDIIIAAAAAN Baaaaccccoooonnnnnn!!!!! [/Drool]::p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What about French Ham with Honey?

[bodhitree]

re-read what lkfmdc said Gene said

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am never going to get my posting privileges back am I? :(

[bodhitree]

French ham is the 'form', canadian bacon is the 'postures performed' , much the same, argument solved. you are so immature to start such an arguement RD.:mad:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

ROLFLAMAO!! :p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I just spoke to Gene, and he says as long as your posts are strictly about Canadian bacon he can restore your account here.... but ONLY Canadian bacon, maybe French ham, but certainly not flap jacks

Reply]
I WAS talking about French Ham and Canadian Bacon though!!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

you are so immature to start such an arguement RD

Reply]
What? I didn't start an argument about Bacon (Canadian or otherwise)!!

I was merely reflecting back the level of discussion presented to me!! :D

[bodhitree]

you are so immature to start such an arguement RD

Reply]
What? I didn't start an argument about Bacon (Canadian or otherwise)!!

I was merely reflecting back the level of discussion presented to me!! :D

you pork larper, you do turkey bacon, which isn't bacon, and you wouldn't know real bacon if it hit you in the face (which it most certainly will)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I trade Frozen Pork Bellies on the Futures markets, does that count?

[bodhitree]

I trade Frozen Pork Bellies on the Futures markets, does that count?


no, you canadianist

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why not? Pork Bellies ARE Bacon, just not cut into strips yet.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Also, how is a native born Chicagoan a canadianist

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Also, Pork Bellies are traded at the Merc in Chicago, not Canada.

[bodhitree]

Also, Pork Bellies are traded at the Merc in Chicago, not Canada.


you are a canadianist traitor, why don't you go back to grozny you canadianist

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The women in Chicago are hotter, wear less cloths in the Summer, and of course since Pork Bellies are traded on the Mercantile exchange in Chicago, ALL global bacon reserves are actually coming through Chicago in thier embryonic pre sliced form.

Lets see you argue THAT!! HA!!! :D

[lkfmdc]

Times have changed
Our kids are getting worse
They won't obey their parents
They just want to **** and curse!

Should we blame the government?
Or blame society?
Or should we blame the images on TV?

No, blame Canada
Blame Canada
With all their beady little eyes
And flapping heads so full of lies

Blame Canada
Blame Canada
We need to form a full assault
It's Canada's fault!

Don't blame me
For my son Stan
He saw the **** cartoon
And now he's off to join the Klan!

And my boy Eric once
Had my picture on his shelf
But now when I see him he tells me to f--k myself!
Well, blame Canada

Blame Canada
It seems that everything's gone wrong
Since Canada came along
Blame Canada
Blame Canada

They're not even a real country anyway

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Pork Bellies are in a good down trend too, so Bacon will be really cheap soon!!!

[bodhitree]

The women in Chicago are hotter, wear less cloths in the Summer, and of course since Pork Bellies are traded on the Mercantile exchange in Chicago, ALL global bacon reserves are actually coming through Chicago in thier embryonic pre sliced form.

Lets see you argue THAT!! HA!!! :D

the SEC might want to know about your CANADIANIST connections you filthy slice



LKFMDC your peotry is inspiring! Yes, blame Canada and canadianism indeed!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Wow, 3 pages and only 4 posts that are actually on topic..Sorry Sal :o

[bodhitree]

Wow, 3 pages and only 4 posts that are actually on topic..Sorry Sal :o


he knows the real issue is bacon:mad:, forms, ppfffftt:mad:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

the SEC might want to know about your CANADIANIST connections you filthy slice

Reply]
What " CANADIANIST connections"?

[bodhitree]

the SEC might want to know about your CANADIANIST connections you filthy slice

Reply]
What " CANADIANIST connections"?


Don't play dumb you trucking turkey pork eating ****ing truck driver,

drop the dam n can an bee-con


canadianist filth

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ummm.... err....Huh? :confused:

[bodhitree]

Ummm.... err....Huh? :confused:

trying to undermine security

I have already sent an email to the SEC

I suggest you take yourself somewhere else with a new identity unless you want to solve your relationship problems inside of a prison shower. I will no longer communicate with someone who holds such dangerous and filthy canadianist beliefs. You sir are un-American.

can an bee-con begins

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ah ok Der Hosier.

[Shaolinlueb]

I was just watching a video of a talk by Chen Xiao Wang, in it he said (losely translated:) that the frame (the form) is just to learn how to execute the movements correctly, after you are skillful with it, after your energy is correct, you must discard the frame, because if you do the exact postures of the frame in a self defense situation, you will get beaten down.

So, I think this is saying that the frame (a form) is a means to an end, it is a vehicle, a memory device, but without the fundamental body mechanics being correct, it is of no value. Once you are able to achieve a skill, like one permanently learns how to ride a bike (even if someone hasn't ridden in 10-20 years, he can still ride if given a bike), then you don't need the training wheels anymore, you "have it".


execute movements properly is for maximum damage. i agree with what Chen Xiao Wang says.

[lkfmdc]

Chen Xiao Wang has some amazing insight into movement (yes, a serious post for a minute anyway), so much so I wanted to do a seminar with him, the problem was of course that his "language" is the form... since I didn't want to have to learn the set, I sort of was at a loss of how to do the seminar, but the man definitely has insight and even if you can't relate to the physical manifestations, the discussion is valuable in and of itself

[Shaolinlueb]

training applications alone without knowing a form is fine, you can do it. forms jsut connect different applications. and sometimes show things you cant see without knowing them.

plus when you have done an application did it turn out like it does in the form? probably not. there are too many variables to say it goes this way.

what CXW is saying is a good tool.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I would like to believe the moves in the forms do have direct applications that are exactly as they are performed in the form (not counting forms that are changed for appearances sake).

I look at it this way, the move has both direct, and indirect. The direct apps are very few for self explanatory reasons, and the indirect applications are much more varied becasue they are based on modifications of the core movement found in the form.

What are everyone's thoughts on this concept? How many of your form's techniques are directly applied in two man fighting? How many are indirectly applied through modifications of the form's moves to fit the situation?

[Black Jack II]

The question to really ask is what do you consider to be the litmus test for a application in your form to be applicable in fighting.

What is your proactive decision making method...?

Is the course of action used to analyze the application based just on the systems age, that because it is old then somehow it must be good, are you basing it on your teachers assumed fighting ability and not your own, or is the reasoning based on current and relevant testing?

I think to many people make their decision on what works and what may not work based often on romantic crushes and not objective thinking.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Well, I now know that many of the really, really ancient forms are mixes of emptyhand and weapons techniques in the same set...so many would be useless today because yo are not being attacked by a sword, but are still just as effective in regards to thier intended use as allways.

[rogue]

The question to really ask is what do you consider to be the litmus test for a application in your form to be applicable in fighting.

What is your proactive decision making method...?

Is the course of action used to analyze the application based just on the systems age, that because it is old then somehow it must be good, are you basing it on your teachers assumed fighting ability and not your own, or is the reasoning based on current and relevant testing?

I think to many people make their decision on what works and what may not work based often on romantic crushes and not objective thinking.

Goooooaaaaalllll!!!!

I've seen some crazy stuff come out of forms that win more on someones creativity than actually working. I find better applications for movements now that I've dropped doing kata and instead spending more time working live.

[kwaichang]

Forms = a book
Series within the form = chapter
multiple of say 3 technigues in a seguence in the form = paragraph
multiple of 1-2 techniques in the form = words
techniques from the form out of the sequence = letters x,z,r etcetra.

The form if trained with repetition ingraines the letters into the unconscious to be used at your leisure. Dont train the form and the essence of the technique is lost.And the words or paragraphs or chapters and the book is lost. KC:)

[rogue]

Oh poppycock. I hear this all of the time from the forms and kata crowd (of which I was one), but how do arts without forms somehow retain their techniques and somehow ingrain them into their practitioners?

[Christopher M]

Chen Xiao Wang has some amazing insight into movement (yes, a serious post for a minute anyway), so much so I wanted to do a seminar with him, the problem was of course that his "language" is the form... since I didn't want to have to learn the set, I sort of was at a loss of how to do the seminar...

You could do a seminar on zhan zhuang, silk reeling, pole shaking, or some other exercise other than the form.

[Christopher M]

I would like to believe the moves in the forms do have direct applications that are exactly as they are performed in the form... What are everyone's thoughts on this concept?

I think it's taking entirely the wrong approach to the problem. The question shouldn't be whether or not the moves in your form have applications, but rather whether doing forms is how you should be training applications. Any weird movement you can come up with at random probably has an application if you're imaginative enough about it. But that doesn't get you anywhere, it's just an imagination game.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think it's taking entirely the wrong approach to the problem. The question shouldn't be whether or not the moves in your form have applications,


Reply]
Of course we should be focused on that. if the moves have no applications (say a set has been dressed up for artistic performance), then why bother with it?

but rather whether doing forms is how you should be training applications

Reply]
It's been established already that the form is not for training applications in actual use, but more for refining the body mechanics, or or keeping a catalog of a systems techniques in solo practice.

If I remember my history right, forms were developed as a way to tell if someone was trained in the Shaolin system or not. It was a diploma showing completion of your training. My guess is later they began to be used as a tool of refinement by those who were already graduates of a system. From what I can see, forms were traditionally taught last. what we see today is a much more recent thing, and not the traditional way of using forms.

So no, you can't train application usage with forms.

[MasterKiller]

Oh poppycock. I hear this all of the time from the forms and kata crowd (of which I was one), but how do arts without forms somehow retain their techniques and somehow ingrain them into their practitioners? Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition

[lkfmdc]

You could do a seminar on zhan zhuang, silk reeling, pole shaking, or some other exercise other than the form.

In case I wasn't clear, the person who was going to host the seminar was very nice, very helpful and they patiently discussed stuff with me. I have no complaints. I was very welcome to attend, I just felt that it wasn't going to "work" for me. Again, no offense was intended to anyone involved

[Sal Canzonieri]

In case I wasn't clear, the person who was going to host the seminar was very nice, very helpful and they patiently discussed stuff with me. I have no complaints. I was very welcome to attend, I just felt that it wasn't going to "work" for me. Again, no offense was intended to anyone involved

He has an english subtitled DVD series of his seminars, iti is translated very well, subtle ideas are expressed well.
You should at least watch the DVD seminars.
What he says and shows applies to any style.

And, he shows the most coolest applications to situations, his helper goes flying!

And, he shows how movements are executed in the form (which he calls a frame - which makes total sense, it is a frame that the techniques hang on) and how they are instead done in real life and WHY they are done differently (cause people dont understand forms).

Also, he makes fun of some idiotic applications that some people use.

It was entirely worth every penny and was not expensive in any way.
A good supplement to one's experience, and a way to be at his seminar without being there or learning them forms.

I got it here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Chen-XiaoWang-TaiChi-Internal-Qi-Gong-Chen-Si-Gong-3DVD_W0QQitemZ140125750929QQihZ004QQcategoryZ79779 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

[Black Jack II]

Again, what is the litmus test for forms to be a functional part of your self defense training?

When a person repeatedly works on training a movement, often in a focused effort to stimulate the mind's motor memory, the goal is to instill certain physiological changes.

But what if those repetitions, and here I speak of forms training, leads the mind's adaptation process down the wrong road and these physiological changes are more harmfull than helpfull?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

But what if those repetitions, and here I speak of forms training, leads the mind's adaptation process down the wrong road and these physiological changes are more harmfull than helpfull?

Reply]
Then you are doing some crap modern wushu form, and you should drop it for something that actually comes from a real martial environment.

[Black Jack II]

Then you are doing some crap modern wushu form, and you should drop it for something that actually comes from a real martial environment.

Well, that is not really a specific answer.

How do you know one method is any better than the other, in terms of modern wushu as you just stated and something people claim comes from a martial enviroment?

Combative sports often follow a model that allows its players to test certain ideas in a reproducible fashion, through observation and experimentation under controlled conditions, backed up by peer review. You could almost call it a scientific method in a loose sense.

How does martial form work fall into a method of testing, to determine what is "right" and what is "wrong".

[SPJ]

FYI;

there are 4 keepers(Ging Kang) of chen tai chi from Chen Jia Gou.

1. Chen Zhen Lei
compiled18 short form, simplified Chan si gong exercise--

2. Chen Xiao Wang
compiled 37 short form.

3. Zhu Tian Cai.

4. Wang Xi An
recently compiling 1000 examples of applications, sort of encylcopedia/dictionary for Chen tai chi.

the first three will travel and do seminar, however, Wang Xi An does not like travel sort of a quiet person, we have to go to Chen Jia Gou to visit him (last time I heard).

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx5BOExBzNU

a tai chi kid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZuB1Z99yk

a rare scene that 4 of them together.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csbFGw5CT2o&mode=related&search=

an opening.

:D;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice, the hostess sure got my Yang going ;)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

4. Wang Xi An
recently compiling 1000 examples of applications, sort of encylcopedia/dictionary for Chen tai chi.

Reply]
Is this a book? DVD set? Where can I get this?

[SPJ]

Nice, the hostess sure got my Yang going ;)

It was a dance show for the yellow river and the river gave birth to Chinese culture, pottery etc etc.

:)

[SPJ]

4. Wang Xi An
recently compiling 1000 examples of applications, sort of encylcopedia/dictionary for Chen tai chi.

Reply]
Is this a book? DVD set? Where can I get this?

It is a book. I have to check with Chinese bookstore for an update.

I only have the book about Lao Jia yi and er lu by Wang Xi An.

in it, there are songs/poems about all the "frames" in lao jia.

that was why I bought it.

:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Combative sports often follow a model that allows its players to test certain ideas in a reproducible fashion, through observation and experimentation under controlled conditions, backed up by peer review. You could almost call it a scientific method in a loose sense.

How does martial form work fall into a method of testing, to determine what is "right" and what is "wrong".

Reply]
See the bold above.

If you don't get my meaning, you get into the ring and fight, like San Shou and Kuo Shou guys do. If you have techniques that work, then they work, if not you can analyze why not, make adjustments or realize they are fluff added to make the set modern Wushu and you drop it.

You don't fight by doing the entire from choreography. Forms are like a bible reading, you don't get up to the podium and read the whole bible to the congregation, you read only the segment that applies to the days discussions. Example----->John Chapter 13 verse 4-9

When you fight, you don't fight with the whole form, you only fight with what you need at the moment, as dictated by your opponents actions.

Because forms are all your techniques strung together, you would test it same as any other *TC*MMA tests thier techniques. There is NO difference.

[Black Jack II]

Because forms are all your techniques strung together, you would test it same as any other *TC*MMA tests thier techniques. There is NO difference.

I think some will find that statement not very vaild.

Now it makes sense to state that, but then how come people have such a confused idea of what falls into practical function?

There most certainly is a large distance between TCMA litmus testing and MMA testing and training methods at this time. To just say there is no difference would tend to put a spin on the LARPING that is being showcased in most schools and public martial art education.

In specific, how come, and we have heard this a THOUSAND times here, when traditionalist's often spar, it looks NOTHING like the form practice. Which to me is fine, but then you get your own traditional crew crying out to the heavens saying that what is being put on display is not real kung fu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In specific, how come, and we have heard this a THOUSAND times here, when traditionalist's often spar, it looks NOTHING like the form practice. Which to me is fine, but then you get your own traditional crew crying out to the heavens saying that what is being put on display is not real kung fu.

Sparring is sparring, forms are forms and no one will ever confuse the two.
Forms are solo exercise with self-imposed rythm and pace, real fighting is nothing liek that.
In forms you "strike or grapple" the air, in real fighting you do that to a living body and react/follow up accordingly to his/her reactions.
In forms the air doesn't hit back.

Many forms are taught with combat applications last in mind, if at all.

The sequence of movements in forms are done in a pre-determined basis, fighting is the opposite of that, while some combos flow together nicely and naturally, on a whole, sequence of movements are based on how the opponent reacts and how much ( or how little) he reacts.

The only way a form can look like fighting is if one "fights" in the form rather than trains the form ex: shadow boxing.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think some will find that statement not very vaild.

Now it makes sense to state that, but then how come people have such a confused idea of what falls into practical function?

Reply]
Because the form Faries have been ruling TCMA for the last few generations. Only a few lines kept it Old school.

There most certainly is a large distance between TCMA litmus testing and MMA testing and training methods at this time. To just say there is no difference would tend to put a spin on the LARPING that is being showcased in most schools and public martial art education.

Reply]
There should not be though. I have been saying this for years now, MMA *IS* what TCMA used to be except they added the submission ground. Real Kung Fu should be training like MMA guys do. All the tools are in the TCMA toolbox. They used to do it that way. This not learning to fight stuff is modern, not traditional....no matter what the form faries say.

In specific, how come, and we have heard this a THOUSAND times here, when traditionalist's often spar, it looks NOTHING like the form practice. Which to me is fine, but then you get your own traditional crew crying out to the heavens saying that what is being put on display is not real kung fu.

Reply]
Becasue they never actually learn thier form properly. All they lern is the sequence in the air.

To learn a form properly, you must break it down, and drill each technique against resisting opponents. Later you mix them up and use them in free fightining. Then, and ONLY then, once you can fight with the techniques do you learn the sequence to help further refine your mechanics.

If you learn the form by learning to fight with each technique one at a time, and only learn the sequence after you can fight well, you WILL fight like your form. But if you do it half a$$ed backwards like most teachers teach, you will have no fighting skills, and what you end up doing looks like bad school yard fighting instead of your style.

In order to fight like the form, you have to FIGHT with the techniques it contains. You can't just do it in the air.

I have been saying this for 10 years already, you'd think someone would *Get* it by now...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Sparring is sparring, forms are forms and no one will ever confuse the two.

Reply]
WRONG Sparring is the form!! That is what people don't gte. The sparring is drilling the techniques of the form in an alive manor so you can learn to fight with them.

Forms are solo exercise with self-imposed rythm and pace, real fighting is nothing liek that.

Reply]
True, but by the time you are supposed to get to the form's sequence in the first place, you should already know how to fight with it. Originally, learning the form was the LAST part of the training. It was like a diploma, a record of the system, and a tool for the teacher to maintain his body mechanics and conditioning.


In forms you "strike or grapple" the air, in real fighting you do that to a living body and react/follow up accordingly to his/her reactions.
In forms the air doesn't hit back.

Reply]
Learning the form is to recored the system, refine already existing body mechanics, and *Maintain* conditioning developed previously. All the alive training you do for years prior to learning the sequence is what teaches you the form.

In otherwords, the fight TEACHES the form, NOT the formal sequence is teaching the fight.

Many forms are taught with combat applications last in mind, if at all.

Reply]
That is not traditional, but modern goofyness.

The sequence of movements in forms are done in a pre-determined basis, fighting is the opposite of that, while some combos flow together nicely and naturally, on a whole, sequence of movements are based on how the opponent reacts and how much ( or how little) he reacts.

Reply]
No Kidding, that is why you learn to fight with the forms techniques *First*. After you master that, you are taught the forms sequence...kind of like a diploma showing you graduated the fight class.

The only way a form can look like fighting is if one "fights" in the form rather than trains the form ex: shadow boxing.

Reply]
Yup, this is how it was originally done.

[Lucas]

Try talking to CMA guys who are fighting in MMA circuits.

ask them what their training methods and habits are, what programs they have in place.

Probably similar to MMA training, maybe some forms thrown in, maybe not.

There was that one Shaolin guy who posted his vids, his MMA fighting DOES look like CMA.

I'll bet he has a good training model in place for himself.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That would be Charles Wilson. He's close to me, I am thinking of checking him out. Also, he was trained by my first Kung fu teacher.

[Lucas]

Not a lot of CMA guys are competing in MMA, but some are.

It's a big world.

[Sal Canzonieri]

In specific, how come, and we have heard this a THOUSAND times here, when traditionalist's often spar, it looks NOTHING like the form practice. Which to me is fine, but then you get your own traditional crew crying out to the heavens saying that what is being put on display is not real kung fu.

Because you can think you know something, but unless you actually train with other people and deal with their attacks, you will revert to the most primitive stuff you know the most, for most people that is doing stupid stuff out of panic, for a really well trained all around person, they will shoot out what works best at the moment, and often it is the moves that you know the best and the most.

[lkfmdc]

Because you can think you know something, but unless you actually train with other people and deal with their attacks, you will revert to the most primitive stuff you know the most, for most people that is doing stupid stuff out of panic, for a really well trained all around person, they will shoot out what works best at the moment, and often it is the moves that you know the best and the most.

or, under realisitc conditions, only certain techniques actually work....

[Black Jack II]

or, under realisitc conditions, only certain techniques actually work....

lkfmdc just held down the correct and gave it a Dirty Sanchez.


Because you can think you know something, but unless you actually train with other people and deal with their attacks, you will revert to the most primitive stuff you know the most, for most people that is doing stupid stuff out of panic, for a really well trained all around person, they will shoot out what works best at the moment,

Performance training under pressure is one thing, but stating kata work is pressure testing is a different animal all together, which is in a nutshell kinda what this whole deal is about.

BTW, that primitive stuff is often where people find themselves when under violent stress. It's kinda hard to actually perform a intricate application when you have the added baggage of perceptual distortion and your emtional centers in the brain are running in the red.

Well, unless your idea of pressure testing is the more-is-better approach of LAARPING.

[Mano Mano]

Forms = a book
Series within the form = chapter
multiple of say 3 technigues in a seguence in the form = paragraph
multiple of 1-2 techniques in the form = words
techniques from the form out of the sequence = letters x,z,r etcetra.

The form if trained with repetition ingraines the letters into the unconscious to be used at your leisure. Dont train the form and the essence of the technique is lost.And the words or paragraphs or chapters and the book is lost. KCUnfortunately some books are on par with Thomas the Tank Engine while other are on par with War & Peace.
Or if you if you like a book of nursery rhymes where the original meanings to the tales have been lost generations ago.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can pressure test kata in sparring.

You will also find that forms does not look like Forms when you use it a practical way in a full contact sparring environment.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Performance training under pressure is one thing, but stating kata work is pressure testing is a different animal all together, which is in a nutshell kinda what this whole deal is about.

Reply]
Yeah, but who does that anymore? I have not heard anyone claim Kata work is pressure testing ever. Heck, it's got to be 7 or 8 years since I heard you can learn to fight by doing forms. No one says that stupid stuff anymore. It went out with the 90's.

Get back to the roots and do alive training and two man pressure testing is all you ever really hear now a'days.

or, under realisitc conditions, only certain techniques actually work....
lkfmdc just held down the correct and gave it a Dirty Sanchez.


Reply]
Well, here is the thing. all of the techniques work just fine (not counting sets dressed up for show). The thing is, is that they were designed to be used in situations not really seen in the ring today. For example, many sets contain some weapons techniques woven into the empty hand set. they are generally not done with the weapon as they are meant as reminders. You have to take them out of the form and practice them with the weapon in hand to really learn how to use them.

Last I checked, swords were not allowed in the UFC....so the techniques *Work* just fine, but are just not applicable to the ring environment.

[rogue]

Because you can think you know something, but unless you actually train with other people and deal with their attacks, you will revert to the most primitive stuff you know the most, for most people that is doing stupid stuff out of panic, for a really well trained all around person, they will shoot out what works best at the moment, and often it is the moves that you know the best and the most.

And how far you revert will be determined by your comfort zone. If you don't have a lot of experience or don't practice with enough stress then your skills will deteriorate further than someone who does.

[Christopher M]

In case I wasn't clear, the person who was going to host the seminar was very nice, very helpful and they patiently discussed stuff with me. I have no complaints. I was very welcome to attend, I just felt that it wasn't going to "work" for me. Again, no offense was intended to anyone involved

Aha... I thought you meant you were looking to host a seminar on some topic yourself. You're right that there's not much point in doing a seminar on exercises you don't normally do and aren't going to keep up afterwards. Although, it can be interesting to do these seminars just to get a feeling for the skill these guys have. It's a bit peculiar to see the amount of energy people spend online speculating and debating about this stuff but who never have any interest in checking it out to actually feel for themselves. (In general, I mean; I'm not saying that's the case with you.) CXW and the other big Chen style names definitely have skill with a body method you can appreciate regardless of your style.

[Christopher M]

How do you know one method is any better than the other, in terms of modern wushu as you just stated and something people claim comes from a martial enviroment? ... How does martial form work fall into a method of testing, to determine what is "right" and what is "wrong".

Part of the problem in these discussions is that there's more than one understanding in the TCMA about what form work entails and what it's for, so it can be difficult to generalize. There's a lot of variety among the TCMAs. What I have mostly been taught is that form work is for primarily for training body use, and in that sense is more of an analog to weight lifting than to application work. This makes sense to me when you consider the notion of specificity of training and what form work actually is: quite simply, it is moving and so we expect it to teach you something about moving. The utility of the skills learnt in form work naturally have to be integrated with a complete approach to martial training, which must include various intensities of partner work to test their effects in a way which would be familiar to any martial artist. This is really the difference between qigong and martial arts. People get scared of by the 'qi' in 'qigong', but really qigong can be understood simply as a wide variety of body and/or mind exercises (they run the gamut from things that would be indistinguishable from weight lifting to things that would be indistinguishable from meditation). Martial arts, at least in the neijia sense, can be considered qigongs that have been integrated with a curriculum for training martial skills. Of course, if you don't practice the rest of that curriculum, it makes sense to say that really you are just practicing qigong, not martial arts.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I still think that this guy is the greatest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-7E5xXs4c#GU5U2spHI_4

He truly transcended the forms he practiced by completely assimilating them into his movements making him go beyond the form into totally natural self defense movement.

Who need Modern MA when you can have Timeless MA.

[wiz cool c]

I think forms are very important for TCM for many reasons. It make your style an art. If this aspect doesn't interest you then you would be better off doing boxing or wrestling. Also it has many important training values.

I use forms as a form of cardio exercise. They also condition your body in a special way specific and unique to your style. If you want to fight with it you need to do partner work and sparring as well.

[Sal Canzonieri]

or, under realisitc conditions, only certain techniques actually work....

Honestly, lets be real serious for a minute, I have been able to use all my moves from forms in realistic circumstance applications.
But that's due to my training that old school way.
I don't think it is the movement in forms, they are neutral, it is the person.
Most people just don't know how to apply movements.
The fact is that in forms what might look like a specific thing, like a punch or kick or whatever, when done in realistic type of applications, function differently from what they "look" like.

That's my experience and my opinion. When people haven't seen this, I have shown them applications that they never suspected and they accept this.

I know you believe a punch is a punch in a form, but I don't, none of the old timers, especially people over 70-80 have ever said anything but the opposite to me.
Only "do the movements correct" and you will see that "a punch is not a punch and a kick is not a kick".

Well, I'd love to do a seminar on this. I think it would be a beneficial thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Honestly, lets be real serious for a minute, I have been able to use all my moves from forms in realistic circumstance applications.
But that's due to my training that old school way.
I don't think it is the movement in forms, they are neutral, it is the person.
Most people just don't know how to apply movements.
The fact is that in forms what might look like a specific thing, like a punch or kick or whatever, when done in realistic type of applications, function differently from what they "look" like.

That's my experience and my opinion. When people haven't seen this, I have shown them applications that they never suspected and they accept this.

I know you believe a punch is a punch in a form, but I don't, none of the old timers, especially people over 70-80 have ever said anything but the opposite to me.
Only "do the movements correct" and you will see that "a punch is not a punch and a kick is not a kick".

Well, I'd love to do a seminar on this. I think it would be a beneficial thing.

One thing I have learned from forms "bunkai" and "himitsu" is that they are highly subject to interpretation.
In some cases its almost a case of making the form look like a given sequence rather than the other way around.

[Sal Canzonieri]

One thing I have learned from forms "bunkai" and "himitsu" is that they are highly subject to interpretation.
In some cases its almost a case of making the form look like a given sequence rather than the other way around.

Have someone grab your wrists really tight and then do those forms, see what happens.

Did you ever read the book "Barefoot Zen" ? if not, you can learn a lot from what he says in the book.

[Lucas]

Have someone grab your wrists really tight and then do those forms, see what happens.

Did you ever read the book "Barefoot Zen" ? if not, you can learn a lot from what he says in the book.

that is a good book

[lkfmdc]

Honestly, lets be real serious for a minute, I have been able to use all my moves from forms in realistic circumstance applications.



I think it would depend upon what forms you are doing, something like Xing Yi, Ba Ji, even Tai Chi, I think much of it is very practical, assuming you train properly

It isn't what you practice as much as HOW




The fact is that in forms what might look like a specific thing, like a punch or kick or whatever, when done in realistic type of applications, function differently from what they "look" like.

That's my experience and my opinion. When people haven't seen this, I have shown them applications that they never suspected and they accept this.


Oh, I agree completely, it's sort of the problem really, they tried to contain entire systems in forms, so things like grappling had to be "contained" in basicly static postures linked togehter and approximations based upon the fact that you aren't actually working with anotehr person

I know a Ba Gua guy who felt that 100% of Ba Gua as seen in the forms must actually be performed and look different in application beause in application there is another person there changing the "center"

[cjurakpt]

I know a Ba Gua guy who felt that 100% of Ba Gua as seen in the forms must actually be performed and look different in application beause in application there is another person there changing the "center"

that was B P Chan's basic premise regarding solo versus two-person / application - when two people are involved the center changes and therefore so do what the moves "look like"; wouldn't be surprised if that's where they got it from...

[Tai-Lik]

forms are useless if practiced without the knowledge of its' applications and demonstration of fighting fundamentals (timing, correct power, spirit, .......etc.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

forms are useless if practiced without the knowledge of its' applications and demonstration of fighting fundamentals (timing, correct power, spirit, .......etc.)

Yes, Indeed, correct!

Let's be logically about this:

Form are just the frame that the system hangs on, but what the fuel and the engine is HAS TO BE TAUGHT CORRECTLY in order to drive the car efficiently and effectively (the style's strategy, the only real different between TCMA styles is that they offer different strategies to get the job done, but in application they all "look" the same, but the idea when doing them is different only).

there is nothing wrong with forms per say, there is only something wrong with people not being taught a WHOLE holistic system, the synergy between all aspects is missing.

THAT's the trouble today, not forms, but that people get half-as*sed training.

Once you get the forms, and internalized them and the fundamentals (body mechanics, etc) THEN you transcend them into being
NATURAL, natural martial arts, formless because the forms are invisible but still there.

[Tai-Lik]

Sal wrote:


THAT's the trouble today, not forms, but that people get half-as*sed training.

Yes sir.

Forms are just one method of solo training, which should be broken down practically and applied with a partner.

Once a student has correctly developed the coordination, balance, timing....etc. involving movements in his style or form independently, he'll do better when it comes time to train them with a partner.

it's like that old saying "you must learn how to walk before you can run" or something like that:)

A good fighter has good habits. So if you peform a simple straight punch in your form, but before you throw it, you do some pretty little extra move, so when you fight you'll do the same pretty little extra move because you've developed a bad habit from your forms training.

Another example: some forms can take from 1 min to 5 mins to perform. you run, lift weights, etc. consistently, but you still feel like passing out and throwing up everytime you finish the form:) the diagnosis for this problem is usually improper generation/usage of power and/or power conservation. Of course too many beers and McDonalds Big Macs could be the problem too, but here you have another habit that can be internalized during forms training so that you don't gas out too quickly during a fight.

btw, i am mindful that all of these habits can be developed through drills too. As i mentioned, forms are just one method of solo training.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

the diagnosis for this problem is usually improper generation/usage of power and/or power conservation

Reply]
It could also be that you have really bad conditioning and nothing else you are doing is taxing you enough to develop it in a way you specifically need it for martiala rts. That is why you are gassing when you do your form.

Try doing your form 40 minutes each session (after warmup) 4-5 times a week untill you have done it 1000 times. You will notice that you are doing much better and there will be a significant improvement in your cardio and stamina.

Continue this 4-5 times a week untill you have done it 10,000 times and cardio endurance will not even be an issue. You will be at a pro level of stamina by then.

[Tai-Lik]

the diagnosis for this problem is usually improper generation/usage of power and/or power conservation

Reply]
It could also be that you have really bad conditioning and nothing else you are doing is taxing you enough to develop it in a way you specifically need it for martiala rts. That is why you are gassing when you do your form.

Try doing your form 40 minutes each session (after warmup) 4-5 times a week untill you have done it 1000 times. You will notice that you are doing much better and there will be a significant improvement in your cardio and stamina.

Continue this 4-5 times a week untill you have done it 10,000 times and cardio endurance will not even be an issue. You will be at a pro level of stamina by then.

Good tips RD's

i might add that while improving natural stamina and strength, pay attention to how different parts of the body and breathing work together in order to release different types of ging or power. where and how your power is generated and then release. also where you may be wasting energy.

[Tai-Lik]

do all kung fu forms have practical applications?

[Shaolin Wookie]

punching and kicking are always practical. Unfortunately, there are some forms that don't go far beyond that.

[cjurakpt]

stop Phoenix from rising

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The real traditional forms are all practical apps. Many of the newer ones are full of show and flash though.

[SPJ]

we usually start with stances and then single move drill over and over.

see the tong bei practice and wu ba ji threads.

I started those 2 threads.

sort of in response to this form thread.

single move/posture that you practice over and over with a fixed step and then moving steps.

it is called single hand/move drill or dan shou cao.

:)

[mambi]

good postings for someone that dislikes forms and has hard times with them for whatever reason. This is 2nd style Ive trained in.In the first I learned 6 katas in 4 years but only then was the 1rst starting to start to come together,not to mean perfect but heading in that way became more obvious.Seems always move to the next form before the one working on is " just right "or never quite feel like the one working on is finished but yet always asked to move on. Is this for a reason or just so We dont get bored?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It's just so you don't get board.

originally forms were not even taught untill the very last...sort of as if they were a diploma to show you finnished the course.

[MasterKiller]

It's just so you don't get board.

originally forms were not even taught untill the very last...sort of as if they were a diploma to show you finnished the course.

You and Sal keep repeating this....but where is the proof? Where is this documented?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You'd have to ask Sal, he's my source for that and has the research sources.

Although, I have heard this before, especially when talking to more martially oriented lines during my Tai Tzu research.

I wish I could document the sources, but it's kind of part of 10 years of martial study that has periodically come up over, and over again from many different sources.

Sal is the one who says they were developed to be like a diploma, my personal research seems to indicate they were more for teachers to organize thier curriculums and probably also to use to maintain physical conditioning and refine body mechanics.

It has come up a lot that prior to the Qing dynasty, that students didn't really learn forms untill much, much later. What I have read is that they learned a technique, and only after they got good with it were they taught the next one. One by one, the form was assembled over a really long period of time.

We have a couple of teachers in Chicago, one a Kempo guy who teaches this way, and the other does some sort of Shaolin/Taiji,Hsing I and Bagua (don't remember his name though). The late Master Abbate used to teach this way too.

All the Kung Fu schools that I have seen, that really fought taught like this. So aside from what I have read over the years, you also see in today's world that this type of teaching turns out solid fighters quick. The forms heavy schools do not turn out good fighters, if at all.

Since this agrees with what I have read, AND it's commonsense that in a less technical, and more savage world usable skills were needed quickly, it stands the test of logical reason that the books are telling the truth as well.

[TenTigers]

the proof is in the basic understanding of Martial Arts and training.
Forms are divided into two main catagories:

Gung-Faht, Forms that are actually a series of drills,designed to teach and train the structure,breath, and power generation, such as Hsing-Yi's five element fists, or Jook Lum's Sam Bo Ging, Samjien Kuen,Gung Ji Kuen come to mind. Forms that train structure,laws of movement, again establishing the foundation or "Kung-Fu Body" like Siu Lin Tao. These would be taught in the beginning of a student's training.

Kuen Faht-These are the catalog or encyclopedias of the system's fighting techniques. These include strikes, footwork, locking,point striking, strategies,variations,expanding into deeper concepts of movement,etc.
Some of these would include Fook Fu Kuen, Fu-Hok Seurng-Ying Kuen, Ten animal,18 point, Biu Jee, etc. These are taught ONLY after the student is well-grounded in the foundational training, drills, and fighting applications.

Don't ask,"Where is it written?" It isn't, nor does it have to be. It is not taught from books, or dvd's, or magazine articles. Real Martial Art is handed down through direct transmission, by qualified teachers.

Any azole can write a book, or a magazine article.
With whom do you put your faith?

[mambi]

been reading these with intrest and it seems like our competitive selfs are involved in our answers. Easy to see when I dont have my own answer yet. Seems like different people apply different aspects of forms to where we are at.I literaly hate doing them but that tells me there is value. What is to be gotten is largely individual therefore the internal aspect.I still hate the ****ede things but returning after 6 months off at age 55 the forms take on a whole different meaning. specialy whe ,at this stage ,I still want to learn and spar with folks 1/2 my age. Guess rank is the least of it now! thanks now I lknow where Im at.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Form what I gather, taking Traditional Okinanwan Goju for example, a student was taught the basic techniques ands stances, taught Sanchin for power and conditioning training first, then came actual fighting techniques and supplementary training.
Kata's were taught after that, sometimes a student would spend years doing just sanchin, sparring and such.
Forms were then taught in accordance to body type and predisposition to fighting a certain way.
Only a handfull, if that, were taught ALL the forms and only if the sensei taught they would be the ones to carry on the system.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Any azole can write a book, or a magazine article.
With whom do you put your faith?

Reply]
Although I agree to a point, I actually disagree over all becasue there are so many hack teachers out therte that you really can do as good, or better than most form the books...especially if the book was written by one of the few really good teachers.

Yes, my journey has proven that a really good teacher is priceless, but if you don't have access to one, or are still green and don't know what one is, or have never seen one in the 25 years you have studied, you can get alot from the books that will help you improve over what the local teacher can give you (unless you are lucky enough to be close to the few good ones that is....most are not).

The rest of your post is right on.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Form what I gather, taking Traditional Okinanwan Goju for example, a student was taught the basic techniques ands stances, taught Sanchin for power and conditioning training first, then came actual fighting techniques and supplementary training.
Kata's were taught after that, sometimes a student would spend years doing just sanchin, sparring and such.
Forms were then taught in accordance to body type and predisposition to fighting a certain way.
Only a handfull, if that, were taught ALL the forms and only if the sensei taught they would be the ones to carry on the system.

Reply]
This is pretty much how the Old Chinese styles were too...before the form factories.

[TenTigers]

that is why I said in the beginning of my post that MA is handed down through direct transmission from qualified teachers.

As far as systems like Goju Ryu are concerned, you are right on the money. "Three Years Sanchin," meant that for the foundational training, all you did was sanchin,jars, weights, makiwara,arm drills,etc. Only after you build "the body," do you learn the technique. Seisan, Sanseiryu were taught later. The other katas were added generations after.

This is another problem with Martial Arts-particularly TCMA. My teacher and I were discussing this last night. Nobody really trains Gung-Fu the way it was meant to be trained. A student's first year or three should be spent training the body to develop the power, breath, power generation and structure. Lien Gung, such as jars, sandbags, iron bars, gripping,stance trainig,specific weight bearing exercises, were originally taught until the student had real power, and structure.

People like to say that the horse training and such were ways that the teacher "tested" a student, or that he held back. This is untrue. This is simply basic training that is neccesary before moving on to the technique. Nowhere do you see this anymore, mainly because spoiled, consumers (I cannot really call them students) want what they want, when they want it. Nobody is willing to go through the real training anymore.

Have any of you met someone who trained in this way? I have met only a few, and their power, and strength is scary. Sure there are talented Martial Artists out there, and some excellent fighters, but for the most part, you may never see real Gung-Fu ever again. Nobody is willing to go through what it actually takes to develop the real skill.
Ever notice when you go to a shuai jiao sites, and articles,or see the mainland shuai-jiao schools on youtube, you see so much time devoted to the weight and aparatus training? How much time have you spent doing this kind of training?
this can probably be an entire thread. Sorry for the hijack.

[sanjuro_ronin]

that is why I said in the beginning of my post that MA is handed down through direct transmission from qualified teachers.

As far as systems like Goju Ryu are concerned, you are right on the money. "Three Years Sanchin," meant that for the foundational training, all you did was sanchin,jars, weights, makiwara,arm drills,etc. Only after you build "the body," do you learn the technique. Seisan, Sanseiryu were taught later. The other katas were added generations after.

This is another problem with Martial Arts-particularly TCMA. My teacher and I were discussing this last night. Nobody really trains Gung-Fu the way it was meant to be trained. A student's first year or three should be spent training the body to develop the power, breath, power generation and structure. Lien Gung, such as jars, sandbags, iron bars, gripping,stance trainig,specific weight bearing exercises, were originally taught until the student had real power, and structure.

People like to say that the horse training and such were ways that the teacher "tested" a student, or that he held back. This is untrue. This is simply basic training that is neccesary before moving on to the technique. Nowhere do you see this anymore, mainly because spoiled, consumers (I cannot really call them students) want what they want, when they want it.

Have any of you met someone who trained in this way? I have met only a few, and their power, and strength is scary. Sure there are talented Martial Artists out there, and some excellent fighters, but for the most part, you may never see real Gung-Fu ever again. Nobody is willing to go through what it actually takes to develop the real skill.
Ever notice when you go to a shuai jiao sites, and articles,or see the mainland shuai-jiao schools on youtube, you see so much time devoted to the weight and aparatus training? How much time have you spent doing this kind of training?
this can probably be an entire thread. Sorry for the hijack.

You are quite correct, the one thing I would add is that, in the past, the students were taught a "handful" of basic moves that were "street practical" so that they could protect themselves during the "learning process", paradox being that those basics were the core of the system.
Someone once speculated to me that it makes sense that sort arts arose from these "basics" and how they were originally taught and drilled, Sport Muay Thai for example, strong on basics and no-nonsense techniques and training, but there is also the "advanced" MT which has weapons, grappling and so on.

[TenTigers]

when I was a teen , I studied TKD with Yeon Hee Park.To this day, I will never forget the amazing power this man had. He would casually sidekick a heavy leather everlast bag and buckle it in half, sending it up to the ceiling. The man was a machine. Another teacher,Young Ki Hong trained the ROK Marines. His tendons were like steel cables, and his technique was scary. Kanazawa, Shigeru Oyama, Nakamura, and others from "Old school," had a quality we may never see again. The floor shook when they moved, the air popped when they punched, and God-forbid if they ever hit you.
One word-training.

[TenTigers]

"Indulging a child may be making things more difficult for them in the long run. Teaching this person discipline may be the greatest gift you will ever give them."

I just read this in my daily horoscope e-mail. Thought I'd share it with you.
Funny where you find these things.

[sanjuro_ronin]

when I was a teen , I studied TKD with Yeon Hee Park.To this day, I will never forget the amazing power this man had. He would casually sidekick a heavy leather everlast bag and buckle it in half, sending it up to the ceiling. The man was a machine. Another teacher,Young Ki Hong trained the ROK Marines. His tendons were like steel cables, and his technique was scary. Kanazawa, Shigeru Oyama, Nakamura, and others from "Old school," had a quality we may never see again. The floor shook when they moved, the air popped when they punched, and God-forbid if they ever hit you.
One word-training.

Ain't it the truth !
Freaky at times, The TKD guys that first came out of Korea and even their 1st generation students were scary.
Then came the WTF :eek:

You may be quite correct that, in the haste to learn the "good stuff" so many neglected the core of the system and got half backed results for their half backed dedication.

[MasterKiller]

My dad had to walk to school barefoot in 7-feet of snow every July, and it was uphill both ways....

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Indulging a child may be making things more difficult for them in the long run. Teaching this person discipline may be the greatest gift you will ever give them."

I just read this in my daily horoscope e-mail. Thought I'd share it with you.
Funny where you find these things.

The universe playing mind games...

I recall once in judo class the instructor at the time made us drill for one hour nothing but ude gatame ( arm lock), over an dover, from the top from the bottom from the side, over and over and over and some were complaining that it was "boring".
Randori came along and it was ude Gatame all over the place, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting someone in an arm lock or trying to get out of one !
We probably learned more about Ude gatame in that one class than the years combined !

[sanjuro_ronin]

My dad had to walk to school barefoot in 7-feet of snow every July, and it was uphill both ways....

But did he have to carry a VW on his back?
While being attacked by pixies?
And having a crab hang from his testicles?

[MasterKiller]

But did he have to carry a VW on his back?
While being attacked by pixies?
And having a crab hang from his testicles?

The older you get the harder it was and the better you were...

[sanjuro_ronin]

The older you get the harder it was and the better you were...

Well duh !!
Tell us something we don't know !!
LOL !

Oh and a dollar went a long way too !

[bawang]

why dont full time kung fu instructors get any good these days? don't they have all day to train?

[MasterKiller]

why dont full time kung fu instructors get any good these days? don't they have all day to train?

training hard and training long is not the same as training correctly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

training hard and training long is not the same as training correctly.

****, training sounds just like sex LOL !!

[mambi]

conditioning with a fewof the basics.75% conditioning in begening. I think the rest is to keep us intrested.A great conditioned Ma with 5 good techniques can handle an ma with 20 techniques. all other things being equal

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Unless 15 of his techniques are specifically geared to counter your 5..and his other 5 are the same as your.....


It's all one huge game of Paper, Sizzors, Rock.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unless 15 of his techniques are specifically geared to counter your 5..and his other 5 are the same as your.....


It's all one huge game of Paper, Sizzors, Rock.

Rock dude, rock crushes scissors and punches right trough paper !

[Yao Sing]

Yeah, rock rules. I want to hang with rock. :cool:

[Lucas]

I dont want to know any more about your guys' drug habbits.

:mad:


















:p

[TenTigers]

look, the bottom line is that anyone who complains about TMA not being effective, simply means that they didn't get the goods. I don't care who your Sifu was, is,what awards,testimonials,books, articles,statues erected in his honor, movies made about his childhood,etc. Either he never had it, tried his best,jerked you along,or you werewn't the sharpest tool in the shed, or lacked the discipline,or got pizzed off cuz you didn't get your belt, and blamed him for your faults, or there was a total eclipse which threw the world off its axis, WHATEVER-you didn't get it. Period.

oh, and btw- neither did I. But then I met some guys who did. And I realised that there is a whole world that I missed out on, but I have the opportunity to learn now. So quit cryin, quit pointing fingers, quit hurling accusations, trolling, just QUITYERBELLYACHIN, wipe your nose, dry your eyes,STFU, and get on with your life. Keee-Rist! Is everybody on this board like sixteen years old, or what?

[Tai-Lik]

Forms are like dinner menus with numerous dishes to choose from. Some dishes on the menu suit some people more than others. With so many choices on the menu, you must find which dishes suit you. Once you've found your favorite dishes, you should then pass the menu along to someone else so that they can choose their favorite dishes from the menu. If you don't pass along the menu and only tell people what you like, then you are discarding many dishes that may suit others more than you. By maintaining a menu you preserve and pass along many tasty dishes for people to choose from.
:)

[lkfmdc]

Forms are like dinner menues with numerous dishes to choose from. Some dishes on the menue suit some people more than others. With so many choices on the menue, you must find which dishes suit you. Once you've found your favorite dishes, you should then pass the menue along to someone else so that they can choose their favorite dishes from the menue. If you don't pass along the menue and only tell people what you like, then you are discarding many dishes that may suit others more than you. By maintaining a menue you preserve and pass along many tasty dishes for people to choose from.
:)

I appreciate the concept you are trying to convey - there is a difference between being a fighter (doing what works for YOU) and being a teacher (knowing a whole curriculum well enough to pass it on, even the things you don't do well)

However, I don't believe that you need forms to do this....

[TenTigers]

there are systems that do not use forms in their teachings. Robert Chu said he learned from a man who simply called his stuff, cum na sao. Supposedly Gulou Wing Chun does not use forms, but separate san-sik. Jiu Jutsu, aikido, judo uses waza, not kata. Sure it can be done. Some prefer one method, some prefer another. Whatever floats yer boat.

[Lucas]

Right.

I think we should pretty much all be on the same page of: Forms are not required to be good at martial arts, nor to learn a style of martial arts that may include forms.

The individual techniques can be broken down out of the forms and drilled alive.

Hell you could take a form, take just 4 techniques from it, drill the hell out of them correctly, and most likely have a better fighter than the person who just practiced the whole from for the same amount of time.

[Tai-Lik]

I appreciate the concept you are trying to convey - there is a difference between being a fighter (doing what works for YOU) and being a teacher (knowing a whole curriculum well enough to pass it on, even the things you don't do well)

However, I don't believe that you need forms to do this....


Good point LKFMDC and I agree that forms are not necessary to be good fighter. I believe that forms training done correctly is just one of many training tools.
There are of course many ways to train fighters. For example, i use the parallel bag for training and others may not, but this doesn't mean that the parallel bag is a bad training tool. If your own preference in teaching and training.

The analogy i previously used related more to the traditional way techniques were passed on.

I think the answer to the question "Forms or Not Forms?" is that it is up to you.

If you look at it logically, forms training can be good or bad depending on the form, teacher, and student. Other forms of martial arts having training methods i don't use, but i don't consider their method wrong.

[ToraDojoNJ]

Jiu Jutsu, aikido, judo uses waza, not kata.

In fact, some jujutsu systems do indeed use kata and judo definitely does.
The emphasis of the arts is placed on application but kata (forms) is used to
teach basics and counter waza (techniques).

Form should reflect function, in fact function should be the benchmark of form.
If you don't apply the form ever then your form loses touch and your just dancing.
Form is function and function should be based on form. The two shouldn't be mutually exclusive but interdependent, one keeping in check the other.

[lkfmdc]

Forms had a time and a place in China when a sifu had only a select few students, it was a way to make them drill movement (not just technique) over and over again, especially when they didn't have a lot of students so there wasn't always a partner around to work things

In my own case, in my youth I was a "kung fu bum" and spent an unusual amount of time doing it. I was in the Duk Chan Mo Gwoon in the wee hours of the morning the day before my college chemistry finals ;)

I feel for me, the many years I did forms taught me certain moves in my "muscle memory", learning forms from CTS also taught me to be a "mimic" and I can copy a lot of movement/technique from just watching it once or twice

I still feel the forms had movements which were/are impractical, and that my time might have been better spent in other ways

When I think of my students, who spent a fraction of the time I spent training, I can not justify forms ....

That's my opinion

[Sal Canzonieri]

Right.

I think we should pretty much all be on the same page of: Forms are not required to be good at martial arts, nor to learn a style of martial arts that may include forms.

The individual techniques can be broken down out of the forms and drilled alive.

Hell you could take a form, take just 4 techniques from it, drill the hell out of them correctly, and most likely have a better fighter than the person who just practiced the whole from for the same amount of time.

I don't agree, a person who just did one form over and over and knew it like the back of his hand and did it completely correctly and understands the fundamentals and core body mechanics will still be able to cream you as much as some one who just drilled a few moves.

BUT, only if they understand and can do the form right, and understand that CMA movements are simultaneously offensive and defensive and can be applied to any situation.

I am 100% confident that 90% of you people arguing against forms do not really know how to do them or use them or really even understand CMA applications or even CMA much at all.
I guarantee that if I had a one on one discussion and showed you things, you never were taught them and you never realized them before.
Guaranteed.

[lkfmdc]

I am 100% confident that 90% of you people arguing against forms do not really know how to do them or use them or really even understand CMA applications or even CMA much at all.
I guarantee that if I had a one on one discussion and showed you things, you never were taught them and you never realized them before.
Guaranteed.

pssssttttt

and they talk about ME :rolleyes:

[mambi]

and thus, the genius of Martial Arts.

[Lucas]

I don't agree, a person who just did one form over and over and knew it like the back of his hand and did it completely correctly and understands the fundamentals and core body mechanics will still be able to cream you as much as some one who just drilled a few moves.

BUT, only if they understand and can do the form right, and understand that CMA movements are simultaneously offensive and defensive and can be applied to any situation.

I am 100% confident that 90% of you people arguing against forms do not really know how to do them or use them or really even understand CMA applications or even CMA much at all.
I guarantee that if I had a one on one discussion and showed you things, you never were taught them and you never realized them before.
Guaranteed.

I suppose the situation I posed would soley be dependant on the amount of time.

Give someone 4 techniques from a form, and 1 month to drill. Give another guy the whole form and 1 month to drill.

Now give the same situation 10 years. Of course the guy with only 4 techniques will plateu at somewhat of a rapid pace, while the person with the whole form as A LOT of material to deal with.

And for the record, I dont argue for or against form. I DO train form, Every day. I merely discuss.

I am a firm believer that form does have its place, but I am also a firm believer that you dont need it.

It is just one tool I choose to utilize in my personal training.

There are many fighters out there who never touched a form that could cream me, and some I could cream.

[Tai-Lik]

Lucas wrote:


I am a firm believer that form does have its place, but I am also a firm believer that you dont need it.

It is just one tool I choose to utilize in my personal training.

Excellent

[TenTigers]

Forms are like dinner menus with numerous dishes to choose from. Some dishes on the menu suit some people more than others. With so many choices on the menu, you must find which dishes suit you. Once you've found your favorite dishes, you should then pass the menu along to someone else so that they can choose their favorite dishes from the menu. If you don't pass along the menu and only tell people what you like, then you are discarding many dishes that may suit others more than you. By maintaining a menu you preserve and pass along many tasty dishes for people to choose from.
:)

That's funny. I was going to basically say the same thing, only with different iice cream varieties, and then you posted yours. I guess it's around dinner time!

[Tai-Lik]

Forms are like dinner menus with numerous dishes to choose from. Some dishes on the menu suit some people more than others. With so many choices on the menu, you must find which dishes suit you. Once you've found your favorite dishes, you should then pass the menu along to someone else so that they can choose their favorite dishes from the menu. If you don't pass along the menu and only tell people what you like, then you are discarding many dishes that may suit others more than you. By maintaining a menu you preserve and pass along many tasty dishes for people to choose from.
:)


Additionally, if you find a dish that you think is okay, but you feel it could taste even better, it's up to you to decide or find spices and seasonings needed to improve its' taste. Most Italian restaurants have Chicken parmesean, but each restaurant fixes it alittle bit differently. Just don't take out the chicken because then it's no longer Chicken parmesean.:D

btw, form training is only one tool of many that can be used for training. it is not required to be a good fighter, but still a good training for some, who train forms correctly.

[unkokusai]

I am 100% confident that 90% of you people arguing against forms do not really know how to do them or use them or really even understand CMA applications or even CMA much at all.
I guarantee that if I had a one on one discussion and showed you things, you never were taught them and you never realized them before.
Guaranteed.



LOL! Funny stuff!

[Sal Canzonieri]

LOL! Funny stuff!

I can say it because I am confident that most people today (not all of course and maybe not most people here ) have had lousy training and only learned a small piece of what TCMA is about.

It's not meant to sound arrogant, just an observations of a sad fact, the average person learning KF only learned a shadow of their art.

[Sal Canzonieri]

pssssttttt

and they talk about ME :rolleyes:

Well, you of all people especially know that I am right, you've had vast quality training, you know what I said is true. You can be sure that people weren't told the finer points, the details that make all the difference in the world.

I'm not saying that I am great, just that one can be sure that a fraction of the details is ever taught nowadays. For whatever reasons.

The old timers told me that teachers did that to keep you always below them and in need of more lessons, IF these teachers even knew the details themselves.

[MasterKiller]

The old timers told me that teachers did that to keep you always below them and in need of more lessons, IF these teachers even knew the details themselves.

So these old timers were probably 'kept below' their teachers...and their teachers were 'kept below' their teachers...and so on.

Apparently, 723 years or so ago, one Chinese guy was pretty @ss. Since then, no one has quite measured up.

Am I following you correctly?

[bawang]

do a lot of teachers in north america still teach traditional "conditioning"?

[TenTigers]

that's bull****. The old timers didn't teach for money, but to turn out strong students. so they had no need to string their students along. Some say they held back so they always had something up their sleeve in case their student challenged them. Makes no sense either, as who would teach a student with such poor character? You need to separate fact from legends and hollywood.

[Sal Canzonieri]

So these old timers were probably 'kept below' their teachers...and their teachers were 'kept below' their teachers...and so on.

Apparently, 723 years or so ago, one Chinese guy was pretty @ss. Since then, no one has quite measured up.

Am I following you correctly?

Sometimes, ha hah.

Well, usually the linage holder or the generation head were taught everything or better. That's what they meant.

But, yeah I can see what you are saying, in some case, each generation will suck more the previous one.
If seen that happening some places, surely.

[TenTigers]

"Well, usually the linage holder or the generation head were taught everything or better. That's what they meant."
that is usually the case. Still happens today. I know of one Sifu that is still waiting for the golden child to walk through his doors. Meanwhile, he's not getting any younger, and he hasn't passed down his true art to anyone yet.

[Yao Sing]

I've seen and heard of some who are perfectly willing to take it to their grave with them.

[TenTigers]

Yao Sing-I agree, I have seen these too, which I don't really understand. Then why teach at all, if it isn't for love of the art?

[Black Jack II]

Yao Sing-I agree, I have seen these too, which I don't really understand. Then why teach at all, if it isn't for love of the art?

Easy answer.

EGO.

[banditshaw]

or....... could this be the ''classical mess'' that B.Lee meant?

sounds like it.

[unkokusai]

It's not meant to sound arrogant, .



Then you failed.

[Sal Canzonieri]

or....... could this be the ''classical mess'' that B.Lee meant?

sounds like it.

Bruce Lee was always talking about karate type schools when saying this, and the schools he challenged were such schools

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yao Sing-I agree, I have seen these too, which I don't really understand. Then why teach at all, if it isn't for love of the art?

That's why they are willing to die with it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Then you failed.

oh, boo hoo.