Terminologies, methods, theories & maxims [Archive]

k gledhill

10-19-2007, 06:41 AM

all secret handshakes, codes, and hand signals ....the first move of every form contains the secret....the level of the action gives the whole idea ...many hide it by pointing the hands down to the ground, many dont know the code, so they give the actions a meaning for 'application' rather than a clear line of thought ...the rest of the system is abstract, resulting in many attempting to ,again, translate with rational 'application' ...once one understands the 'code' the system is revealed...and re-inforced throughout the forms....the weapons contain the tactics that are applied to all actions, unless these simple ideas are revealed ones maximum potential will never be reached in VT.... ;) and will result in kamikaze like attacks with nothing but chain punches :)

Vajramusti

10-19-2007, 08:32 AM

http://www.fongswingchun.com/home.html

Lone Tiger -the above Augustine Fong site under "resources" has a curriculum and a dictionary of terms.

Many of the terms and concepts and kuen kuit by "osmosis" shows up in different collections.

joy chaudhuri

southernkf

10-19-2007, 11:56 AM

After seeing that there are many Sifu that contrubute to this forum I was wondering if anybody would like to share their thoughts on the language used to teach Wing Chun.

Is it a 'secret' coded tongue? Is knowledge only ever 'verbally' passed down? Do you use scrict 'codes of conduct' and set, structured curriculums?

Whatever the terminology, method, theory or maxim this thread is created for you to discuss all the countless variations of teaching Wing Chun...

My thoughts only. I think the language is important to reveal some inoformation. Tan for example means something and someone chose that name over other names. But what we don't see a lot of in wing chun that is found in other arts is hidden names and meanings. Other arts use fanciful names to describe various aspects of their arts. One exception was Pan Nam, he had interesting names for every thing. But wing chun typically doesn't seem to have this at its core.

I find many hands don't even seem to have proper names. Perhaps they were lost, perhaps they arn't important, perhaps they are just variations on other hands. I don't know. But it seems we have a core set of terminology that we are interested in, then we have other stuff. But there doesn't seem to be a secret tounge or langauge.

The closest I would say we get is the Kuen Kuits. But I think even those are pretty straight forward. They are not too secret in their meaning if you see them. A few are abstract and difficult to understand, but then again every domain has such complex knowledge, which usually isn't secret.

Just my thought on the topic

byond1

10-19-2007, 01:53 PM

anerlich

10-19-2007, 03:56 PM

Is it a 'secret' coded tongue?

Only for people under the age of twelve, hopefully. Secrets generally do not help the growth of knowledge or skills, and end with inferior results because not enough scrutiny and pressure are brought to bear on the "secret" stuff.

Matt Thornton makes some sound arguments against the use of special terminology and exotic names for techniques, which Terence will probably parrot on this thread in the near future.

Is knowledge only ever 'verbally' passed down?

Only by the illiterate. Some say theirs is an oral tradition, but they usually say this in a long book.

Do you use scrict 'codes of conduct' and set, structured curriculums?

I'd prefer people thought for themselves and develop morality from within and encourage them to do so. All the MA's I practice have structured grading curricula, but flexible teaching methods.

LoneTiger108

10-19-2007, 05:41 PM

I'd prefer people thought for themselves and develop morality from within and encourage them to do so. All the MA's I practice have structured grading curricula, but flexible teaching methods.

Something I can actually agree with you on at last. Although I have learnt set teaching methods, just different interpretations for different personalities and generations.

I would like anyones opinion on this webpage which has an original piece of text presented to myself and my Si Hing when we founded our Academy.

http://www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk/Curriculum/foundation/foundation.html

anerlich

10-19-2007, 09:49 PM

It's a bit crowded, and the requirement to bump up your screen resolution is lame web design. you'd be better with some sort of cascading menu system and structure rather than trying to cram everything possible on page one.

I don't read Chinese, so can't comment on the text.

This isn't Kuen Kuit, its Hao Kuit...

And your point is ....

YungChun

10-20-2007, 03:45 AM

Is it a 'secret' coded tongue?
Wow, I thought I was the only one with a code on my tongue.. :eek::rolleyes::D

I wish I could read it..

couch

10-20-2007, 04:36 AM

Wow, I thought I was the only one with a code on my tongue.. :eek::rolleyes::D

I wish I could read it..

This could be a major problem in Chinese Medicine, considering we use the tongue and the pulse as the backbone of diagnosis.

Send me a photo! :)

YungChun

10-20-2007, 05:13 AM

couch

10-20-2007, 05:27 AM

Hi Kenton..

Yeah the symbol is said to amplify my chi through the tongue meridian and allows me to use WCK's little known, no touch killing techniques. Sorry, I can't show it to you unless you prove you have closed door MJ-12 status by going through the 108 secret hand shakes with me, which would be hard to do over the Net.. :D

Well at least I'm on the East Coast...

There's no such meridian ON the tongue, however the Heart is said to Flower into the tongue and if the punch comes from the heart...I can see how the connection could be drawn.

;)

t_niehoff

10-20-2007, 01:11 PM

After seeing that there are many Sifu that contrubute to this forum I was wondering if anybody would like to share their thoughts on the language used to teach Wing Chun.

Is it a 'secret' coded tongue? Is knowledge only ever 'verbally' passed down? Do you use scrict 'codes of conduct' and set, structured curriculums?

Whatever the terminology, method, theory or maxim this thread is created for you to discuss all the countless variations of teaching Wing Chun...

I think it is critical to appreciate the distinction between the subject matter, what you are trying to learn to *do*, and the curriculum, how it is taught. WCK is not the forms, the drills, the kuit, the keywords, etc. WCK is a learned (physical) skill (skill set). Just as is boxing or wrestling. Or just as riding a bicycle or skiing are learned skills. As such, it is not intellectually-based. It is skill-based. And so, there is not a lot of "knowledge" -- at least beyond the superficial level -- that can be "verbally passed down." Not that there aren't things to learn. Only verbal information is severely limited in its usefulness. Learning a (physical) skill involves being taught the skill (learn how to *perform* it) and then practicing the skill (train by doing the skill) until it becomes second nature (habitual).

When you see things this way, the notion of "secret coded tongues" is laughable.

forever young

10-20-2007, 01:37 PM

When you see things this way, the notion of "secret coded tongues" is laughable.

your wife wasnt laughing when i unleashed my "secret coded tounge" on her ;):D j/k

southernkf

10-20-2007, 08:09 PM

Lonetiger

In the USA, most Kuen Kuit are from the H.K Clan. The 2 men that spread the Kuen Kuit before ANYONE did to non Asians, were Moy Yat and Augustine Fong. Hands down. I havnt seen many lists, that dont include their material. I have done my best to figure out what came from who and give them the credit they deserve. I always respected and appreciated both of the above mentioned WCK masters for there forecoming nature in breaking down racial barriers, with really Open hearts. While others complained about this was differant or that was differant to how i "do it" , Fong Sifu was the first to put the entire system down on vid and book, to my knowledge, and open many up to their first look at Biu Tze.

B

ahhh, I am not sure I agree with that statement at all. I think what your saying is that most public lists may be from these people. I think Curt James was one of the first to post on the net and his material may have been included by many. However, I think you will find many people in a direct lineage and access to their direct seniors have lists. Maybe I am overstepping what I actuall know. Let me rephrase, there are a atleast a few others that have kuen kuits. My lineage has kuen kuits and they are somewhat different than some of the others out there.

My question would be, what is the significance of these? I get the idea they wern't formally taught, but were probably sayings that kept getting repeated in class.

Vajramusti

10-21-2007, 05:34 AM

I think Curt James was one of the first to post on the net and his material may have been included by many(southern KF)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James was an ex student of Fong- and James' list was a reproduction of the Fong collection
which was already published in a book by Fong with Chinese lettering and translation from Chinese..The book sold out right away and is out of print. Dan Lucas's site later on carried the
James list.

Moy Yat's collection was smaller. It appeared in a small book and also in his stone carvings.
The kuen kuit are martial songs and the meanings can vary with levels of understanding.
The taichi songs are an older published list and also has a parallel characteristic of the requirement of some tacit knowledge of the relevant art.

Guideposts along the way.

joy chaudhuri

Vajramusti

10-21-2007, 06:47 AM

IMO-The kuit is/are no substitute for direct hands on instruction, good practice and experience.

joy chaudhuri

t_niehoff

10-21-2007, 07:17 AM

your wife wasnt laughing when i unleashed my "secret coded tounge" on her ;):D j/k

How old are you? 12? 13?

k gledhill

10-21-2007, 07:31 AM

back to the discussion...VT is a freefighting art , problem being many dont see a simple line of attack, unbroken in its delivery, rather "training stages" and basic's done so often nobody see'e the 'goal' of a continous, unrelenting aggressive attack ...or how to maintain it through hand techniques developed in chi-sao...a lot of the stuff being taught is now 'stylized' by the 'teacher' and sold as his product 'take it or leave it ' oh and heres the video series for $49.99 or 3 easy payments of.......self defense stuff using VT....abstracted so far off the line it no longer has any fighting value....just lost in rolling hands, stick 2,3,4 and trap and hit ..lovely again :D ............
... and dont forget the maxims ....you understand what they mean to freefighting dont you ? dont you ? ;)

t_niehoff

10-21-2007, 07:36 AM

Guideposts along the way.

Not so much guideposts as points-of-inquiry (things to reflect on in your practice).

Kuit are poetic expressions, and their meaning is not clear but open to many possible (theoretical) interpretations. Nor is the context of the kuit specified (when, where it "applies"). Etc.

IME I think many people believe the kuit, the terminology, etc. will "help" their WCK development in that these things will "point the way", the guidepost analogy. I think that view is utterly mistaken. Like most things in WCK, our understanding (and the understanding of our instructor) will depend on and come from our (their) performance (skill) level -- not that our skill level will depend on and come from our understanding (of these things). There is no objective, right way of knowing whether our interpretation is sound (let alone "correct" or the "intended" one) except through performance results. And, only through experience, through the doing of WCK, can we begin to really appreciate what it is the kuit is trying to say.

k gledhill

10-21-2007, 01:05 PM

better to know than guess ....;) like the game chinese whispers, after the 10th attempt to pass on a simple idea , it becomes far from that ;)

When you drink water , you will always think of the source.

LoneTiger108

10-22-2007, 03:08 AM

I have enjoyed this post, even some of the 'coded tongue' jokes still haven't distracted most of us from the actual discussion here. I would like to mention that, as far as I'm aware, most Kuit I have learnt comes from the verbal teachings of my Sifu. He had written them down as 'instructions', not as advice (although he had plenty of that! lol!).

For example, starting with a line system, each line has an accompanying 'image' or simple movement that can be practised in all areas. The general 'advice' (kuen kuit) is given during training, but what I'm referring to with 'Hao Kuit' is the way in which the days training was written down by the Sifu, rather like a menu or a program and then dictated to students openly.

My Sifu used to come into a class with a page of text and sit everyone down and say 'this is whats on the menu for today!'. Our notes on his chats were our individual interpretations, but if any of us strayed too far he could always use his lines to get us back on track.

Does any of this make sense or seem familiar to anyone else?

YungChun

10-22-2007, 04:21 AM

Not so much guideposts as points-of-inquiry (things to reflect on in your practice).

Kuit are poetic expressions, and their meaning is not clear but open to many possible (theoretical) interpretations. Nor is the context of the kuit specified (when, where it "applies"). Etc.

IME I think many people believe the kuit, the terminology, etc. will "help" their WCK development in that these things will "point the way", the guidepost analogy. I think that view is utterly mistaken. Like most things in WCK, our understanding (and the understanding of our instructor) will depend on and come from our (their) performance (skill) level -- not that our skill level will depend on and come from our understanding (of these things). There is no objective, right way of knowing whether our interpretation is sound (let alone "correct" or the "intended" one) except through performance results. And, only through experience, through the doing of WCK, can we begin to really appreciate what it is the kuit is trying to say.

So you can't know what the KK are unless you fight, but if you fight without knowing the KK or any WCK concepts they how will you know you are doing WCK--which is defined by it's tools and tactics.

One does not enter into playing basketball without knowing what the object of the game is.. One does not play on a team without knowing what the strategies will be.. First strategy must be chosen and explained and then put into action/drilling/application... Clearly many don't get what WCK's strategy truly is or how important the correct process is..

Through application one may then improve the expression of the tactics but one cannot begin to improve tactics that one knows not—hence the progression the tactics and tools must first be learned and then applied, rinse repeat..

Moreover, a boxer having learned how to box will not stop hitting the bag and drilling once he begins sparring.. He will cycle his training drilling/sparring/drilling/sparring in order to improve his strengths and fix errors or weak spots, through critical analysis of course.. .:rolleyes:

YungChun

10-22-2007, 04:35 AM

t_niehoff

10-22-2007, 05:54 AM

So you can't know what the KK are unless you fight, but if you fight without knowing the KK or any WCK concepts they how will you know you are doing WCK--which is defined by it's tools and tactics.

There is a distinction between "knowing" the KK (or anything in WCK)and "understanding" the KK (or anything in WCK). My point is that you can learn the KK, but your understanding of it will correspond to your performance level (how well you can do it). As you get better, your understanding will change. This is why we shouldn't look at these things as "written in stone" (although Moy Yat did write them in stone!), but as dynamic. How we look at them, how we understand them, etc. will change over time.

One does not enter into playing basketball without knowing what the object of the game is.. One does not play on a team without knowing what the strategies will be.. First strategy must be chosen and explained and then put into action/drilling/application... Clearly many don't get what WCK's strategy truly is or how important the correct process is..

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that a beginner will have a beginner's understanding of these things. As their skill level grows, so will their understanding of these things. It is the experience, that process of skill development, that shapes, modifies, and changes our appreciation and understanding of these things. Andwemay see that our beginner's view was very, very different than our view further on down the road.

Through application one may then improve the expression of the tactics but one cannot begin to improve tactics that one knows not—hence the progression the tactics and tools must first be learned and then applied, rinse repeat..

As I see it, certain specific tactics/tools are to solve certain combative problems. I think it is the wrong approach to learn the tools/tactic and then try to use them. That will most likely fail. Because there are lots and lots of combative problems, and you are trying to take something narrow and use it generally. This is one reason we see WCK people who can't use most of their tactics/tools (other than the Caveman). They've never learned when/where to really use their tactics/tools. It's better IME to begin with the (realistic) combative problem and learn the specific tactic/tool to solve it -- or just figure it out. Only then repeat.

Moreover, a boxer having learned how to box will not stop hitting the bag and drilling once he begins sparring.. He will cycle his training drilling/sparring/drilling/sparring in order to improve his strengths and fix errors or weak spots, through critical analysis of course.. .:rolleyes:

There is conditioning work (hitting the bag), drilling (which is realistic and alive),and sparring (which is realistic drilling). The only difference between sparring and drilling is that drilling takes "snippets" of sparring and repeats them, so that the trainee gets more repetitions.

YungChun

10-22-2007, 06:08 AM

As I see it, certain specific tactics/tools are to solve certain combative problems. I think it is the wrong approach to learn the tools/tactic and then try to use them.

All is energy and position and/or interruptions of the flow of our power IMO..

It’s impossible to discuss tactics or training with you because you reveal nothing of what you do/use/advoate technically within what you call your WCK.

LoneTiger108

10-25-2007, 01:52 AM

My Sifu used to come into a class with a page of text and sit everyone down and say 'this is whats on the menu for today!'. Our notes on his chats were our individual interpretations, but if any of us strayed too far he could always use his lines to get us back on track.

Does any of this make sense or seem familiar to anyone else?

Why are the simple questions always ignored??

I think the discussion is not really developing how I thought it would, again, as I see too many people concerned with the Kuen Kuit that has been publically seen. I know that most of you will just be either bored of it all and can not see its relevence, or some may feel inspired to actually have some evidence of past practitioners thoughts (especially Moy Yats collection, which is priceless! IMO)

Can you not see that I'm asking if any of you have had a similar experience to me with regards to being taught lines of text that not only have a physical 'shape' or motion, but a mental 'objective' and 'theory'. I'm not talking of 'Hints & Tips' here, like so many of the KK are known to do, I'm talking of simple training programs and curriculae that are actually 'written in Chinese' and taught in that manner regardless.

Maybe this link will help (or maybe not!)

http://www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk/Curriculum/foundation/foundation.html

The text highlights 8 Concepts (4 characters each), which all have a physical shape and purpose. This is generally used to create a good foundation knowledge of how we teach and can be built on. Knowing how to 'read' it is just one of the requirements for our Apprenticeships, actually training it is an experience in itself we offer to everyone...

YungChun

10-25-2007, 01:57 AM

Can you not see that I'm asking if any of you have had a similar experience to me with regards to being taught lines of text that not only have a physical 'shape' or motion, but a mental 'objective' and 'theory'.
Yes, and no..

In my old days at my school the nature of study was more 1 on 1 in terms of seniors or higher level folks working with younger level folks and doing so hands on and/or working on specific things.. Students would then go off and work on those things on their own later, rinse repeat.. Organized class structure was rarely seen but did happen now and then.. Each person is really at his own level due to differences in understanding and ability, therefore each person's 'lesson' is his own..

LoneTiger108

10-25-2007, 02:19 AM

Yes, and no..

In my old days at my school the nature of study was more 1 on 1 in terms of seniors or higher level folks working with younger level folks and doing so hands on and/or working on specific things.. Students would then go off and work on those things on their own later, rinse repeat.. Organized class structure was rarely seen but did happen now and then.. Each person is really at his own level due to differences in understanding and ability, therefore each person's 'lesson' is his own..

I totally agree with you here. My tuition was very personalized, but I must say that 'everybody' in the school at that time had this opportunity. We used to refer to an individuals 'kung fu' would decide how much or little was 'taken in' by mind and body. I was very fortunate to put in some serious time, so I feel I benefitted greatly.

I have grown with time away too, and I still feel like a beginner sometimes (especially here! lol!) as I know there are many families and interpretations out there. There may be hundreds, if not more, like me in the UK as I myself shared time with as many as that. If they didn't catch it, that was never my responsibility.

Yes and no? Does this mean any curriculae you used were mainly in English?

YungChun

10-25-2007, 02:22 AM

The yes and no was in response to this:

Can you not see that I'm asking if any of you have had a similar experience to me with regards to being taught lines of text that not only have a physical 'shape' or motion, but a mental 'objective' and 'theory'. I'm not talking of 'Hints & Tips' here, like so many of the KK are known to do, I'm talking of simple training programs and curriculae that are actually 'written in Chinese' and taught in that manner regardless.

Yes I understand the question but honestly most of what you talk about is far removed from my experience..

LoneTiger108

10-26-2007, 02:58 PM

Yes I understand the question but honestly most of what you talk about is far removed from my experience..

I find this from fellow Wing Chun practitioners quite a lot in London, and there are plenty of us! What is so far removed from your experience exactly?

For me, the people I meet have mostly never really put the time into learning the language of Wing Chun, with a few exceptional characters who's Cantonese or Mandarin is pitch perfect. Generally these guys are closer to the Yip Family, as they can converse with the elders in Hong Kong and China, but even they might say that students at the 'Jun Mo' School went a bit extreme. We were seen as either an 'advanced' group of performers, or 'not Wing Chun', which we couldn't understand at the time. We are, however, still known in the UK by most because of 'Jun Mo', and our Sifu, Joseph Man. He himself, to me, is a living treasure.

All I know is that it is looking more like we may be among the first group of westerners to experience learning like this within the Lee Shing Wing Chun Family. And we all started on this journey as late as 1994, and know of very few who had trained like this with our Sifu before when he opened his first school in 1978.

What I am looking for in this thread is a good discussion on what everybody 'does know' about Wing Chun Literature of the Chinese kind, but I'm struggling to find a starting point...

The Kuen Kuit seemed to be familiar to me

LoneTiger108

11-07-2007, 02:04 AM

Must be the content, as people seem scared to actually 'talk' about what they know and more comfortable talking about how others don't know because it just doesn't 'look' like mine!

Wierd, I've always been taught to be open about what I experienced, but I suppose there just might be too many people who use this forum without really having anything constructive to talk about...

I still can not believe that nobody even wants to discuss anything about the 'kuen kuit' even, it makes no sense. Surely people 'do' understand them right? I have yet to gain access to a whole set even, so I have to rely on the wcarchive translations.

Does anyone know where I can get an actual set of Moy Yats 'chops', or even copies of Augustine Fongs older books?

UKBBC

11-07-2007, 06:08 AM

You can also try my Sifu Randy Williams' new books too, he has a fair bit in there.

k gledhill

11-07-2007, 07:14 AM

ignored ? this thread ? cant see why, can you ...? :D

ribbet...ribbet...oh looka cricket ..! what ! ? dont agree with me ? YOUR LUNCH :D

Vajramusti

11-07-2007, 07:21 AM

You asked about Augustine Fong's old books. Most of them are out of print. The one with
concepts, principles and a long list of kuen kuit sold out as soon as it appeared in the very early 80s.They seem to reappear here and there in various forms and versions'(not always properly proofread).
One of his ex students transferred a list to Dan Lucas's old site- Wing Chun World. I havent checked that site for a while and dont know whether it's up.
Wingchun pedia at it's site has a list I believe..
Moy Yat's collection appeared ina small book with pictures of the carved stones.I havent seen a copy lately, but I have one in my clutter somewhere.

A good student and friend kindly gifted me with a self assembled book which has the kuit, the cantonese(in English lettering), the Chinese script and the translations.(Much appreciated).
Understanding the kuit is not easy-levels of skill development and intuition and comparative philosophy and accuracy can affect the understandings.

And as some have learned-internet forums specially with those with anonymous posters and chest beating and sarcasm do not lend themselves to serious discussions .
With good wishes,

Joy Chaudhuri

LoneTiger108

11-07-2007, 07:44 AM

ignored ? this thread ? cant see why, can you ...? :D

ribbet...ribbet...oh looka cricket ..! what ! ? dont agree with me ? YOUR LUNCH :D

Thanks for your intellectual response. I just can't wait until you post on yet another of my threads with insults and crap banter:confused:

LoneTiger108

11-07-2007, 07:49 AM

And as some have learned-internet forums specially with those with anonymous posters and chest beating and sarcasm do not lend themselves to serious discussions .
With good wishes,

Joy Chaudhuri

I am learning this Joy, and thank you so much for the info you've shared here. It helps to know that some people have at least 'studied' the Kuen Kuit and original literature. Translations and interpretations are still very very rare so the notes you have sound priceless to me...

Why are there no available books 'translating' all this stuff anyway?

LoneTiger108

11-14-2007, 03:42 AM

Has anyone read this book?

Strangely, my parents gave me a copy for my Birthday recently, and I have to say "What a read!"

Wayne Belonoha has crammed so much information within the pages it literally makes my notes seem like a bungled mess lol!

Obviously, being a student of the late Moy Yat, I expected some insight into the Kuen Kuit, but I wasn't expecting such an in-depth analysis of Wing Chun. Check out the Google info page below if you're interested:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OTMshtGXiqoC&dq=wing+chun+compendium&pg=PP1&ots=TRgNpD6nvf&sig=lrA55dihGZnwNQY3TLgtdwBp7S0&prev=http://www.google.co.uk/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dwing%2Bchun%2Bcompendium%26 meta%3D&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPP1,M1

MrBump

11-14-2007, 07:29 AM

Just checked out that book on Google Books - amazing! That's going to be a really good read, I think.

Must drop the Wife a hint for Christmas...

Vajramusti

11-14-2007, 08:42 AM

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;816921]Has anyone read this book?

Strangely, my parents gave me a copy for my Birthday recently, and I have to say "What a read!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read the book. My reaction (Let it be, Let it be...Mother Mary says to me) is apparently different from yours("What a read!").

joy chaudhuri

Nick Forrer

11-14-2007, 03:47 PM

briefly looked at it

straight away saw some prime nonsense

1) Weight training shortens muscles (no length of muscle i.e. insertion point is genetically determined except for surgical re attatchment)

2) there is no backfist in wing chun (wrong again - gwa choi is staple of southern fist systems (look at Gulao and cheung bos 12 points)- wck just uses smaller motions then say CLF)

3) elbow down stops you from being arm barred (no depends entirely on fulcrum used - sometimes elbow out defends against an armbar)

Dont think ill bother with the rest

Hendrik

11-14-2007, 06:16 PM

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.ChoFamilyLineage

I Hendrik Santo a close indoor student of Late GM Cho Hong-Choy, and have never trained by late sifu Yeung Kam Jeung who is my siheng.

Could some one get this to be proper? instead of spreading what is false?

See, I didnt die yet. and already all these distortion his-story. hahahaha. what a wonderfull world. Great that there is Eternet. So later those who would like to trace me could see this post. hahaha

LoneTiger108

11-15-2007, 02:38 AM

Read the book. My reaction (Let it be, Let it be...Mother Mary says to me) is apparently different from yours("What a read!").

"Speaking words of wisdom?"

What do you think of the book Joy? You sound like its better left alone or something. I found it refreshing to see ones own interpretation of Kuen Kuit and common theoretical analysis.

The author is from the Moy Yat Family, isn't/wasn't he?

Oh! Hey Hendrik! What is that post about?? Are you saying that the wiki ppl made a mistake? I do like the sound of your families methods, as it all rings a familiar tone in my ears...

The system called “Cho Family” Wing Chun Kuen, is formaly called “Ban Chun” or Opera House style. The curriculum of the Cho Family includes many forms and many styles including Wing Chun Kuen, Mok Gar, White Crane, Pai Mei, Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar.

I met some Opera students (British) back in 1999 from 'Hay Ban'. I've tried to find them since as their form was 'amazing', superb characters and humble gentlemen. Do you know any Sifu's that taught in London?

Vajramusti

11-15-2007, 07:56 AM

What do you think of the book Joy? You sound like its better left alone or something. I found it refreshing to see ones own interpretation of Kuen Kuit and common theoretical analysis
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lone Tiger 108- he crams many things into the book but they are not well digested IMO.
I have bought lots of wing chun books... not always a good compulsion. Just like to know who is doing what. The book costs a pretty penny-$50.I think I gave my copy away.
The kuen kuit is not just from Moy Yat- he has quite a few- sometimes rephrased from the Fong collection.He is from the Moy yat line by way of Sunny Tang in Toronto.To his credit-
he has put a lot of work into the book.Its not easy to do a book.
If someone gets some constructive insight from the book-good for them.
All in the family.
Just not my cup of tea.

joy chaudhuri

LoneTiger108

11-15-2007, 08:10 AM

I can see where you're coming from Joy, as I was a bit mythed that it didn't cover any weaponry but chose to look at accupuncture 'maps' and pressure point meridians.

It is hard to write a good book on Wing Chun, and I have only recently started to look 'outside my own family' for inspiration and I'm having difficulty!!

What book would you say is 'the one' for all Wing Chun people, and why?

Hendrik

11-15-2007, 11:32 AM

Oh! Hey Hendrik! What is that post about?? Are you saying that the wiki ppl made a mistake?

may be there is another Hendrik Santo which the site is talking about.

Vajramusti

11-15-2007, 02:01 PM

Hendrik has been trying get his lineage link corrected on a list.
Some contemporary lists do have errors.

Hendrik is responsible IMO more than anyone else to make people aware of Cho wing chun-
but then there is the adage- no good deed goes unpunished!

joy chaudhuri

anerlich

11-15-2007, 02:20 PM

As an inveterate book reviewer, looking at what I saw on the Google site:

The author is to be credited for:

1. Writing a book at all
2. Attempting so broad a treatment of the subject. He does include a LOT of stuff in there. Especially with regard to the Kuen Kuit, etc.

The stuff on conditioning and weight training is inaccurate, outmoded, and as Nick said contains misconceptions and falsehoods.

The stuff on acupuncture and TCM is basically filler. The five element stuff is part of that.

The author should have stuck to what he knew and left those parts out.

The philosophy stuff is actually cultural stuff. From my POV, interesting as historical curiosity rather than a guide to success in the 21st century. As a parallel, the Hagakure is an interesting book but only a nutter would want to live like that these days. YMMV.

Interesting, but not enough to make me inclined to buy.

The bar is pretty low where WC books are concerned. MKF was ambitious but was spoiled by the overt political aims of its authors.

I personally have found Alan Gibson's and Ian Protheroe's books to be among the best.

Graychuan

11-17-2007, 08:09 AM

There is a distinction between "knowing" the KK (or anything in WCK)and "understanding" the KK (or anything in WCK). My point is that you can learn the KK, but your understanding of it will correspond to your performance level (how well you can do it). As you get better, your understanding will change. This is why we shouldn't look at these things as "written in stone" (although Moy Yat did write them in stone!), but as dynamic. How we look at them, how we understand them, etc. will change over time.

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that a beginner will have a beginner's understanding of these things. As their skill level grows, so will their understanding of these things. It is the experience, that process of skill development, that shapes, modifies, and changes our appreciation and understanding of these things. Andwemay see that our beginner's view was very, very different than our view further on down the road.

As I see it, certain specific tactics/tools are to solve certain combative problems. I think it is the wrong approach to learn the tools/tactic and then try to use them. That will most likely fail. Because there are lots and lots of combative problems, and you are trying to take something narrow and use it generally. This is one reason we see WCK people who can't use most of their tactics/tools (other than the Caveman). They've never learned when/where to really use their tactics/tools. It's better IME to begin with the (realistic) combative problem and learn the specific tactic/tool to solve it -- or just figure it out. Only then repeat.

There is conditioning work (hitting the bag), drilling (which is realistic and alive),and sparring (which is realistic drilling). The only difference between sparring and drilling is that drilling takes "snippets" of sparring and repeats them, so that the trainee gets more repetitions.

I definitely understand what you are syaing on this whole post. I like it(not that you need my approval). I would like to ask you about what I have highlighted in bold and italics. As I have been taught...the SLT form is exaclty that. It teaches you the proper tools and lays the foundation of the art. The structure, the posture, the hand movments. I was taught that the translation of Sil Lim Tao was 'Little Beginning Idea'. So by definition it seems that One does learn at least some of the idea first before using it.
Let me also point out that this is assuming that you started learning Wing Chun in the order that I did which is SLT, Chum Kil, Wooden man, Dragon Pole, then Swords. I would like to know if you started in a sparring or contact setting first then went into SLT or did you do it like I did and worked with SLt first.

The reason for this question is because I am mostly in agreement with your post except for this 'Little Beginning Idea' thing. I can see learning the tools(SLT) first and the tactics(applications) later, but definitley not any tactics(applications) before you even know what tools(Idea=SLT) to use.

Enlighten a brotha ,please! ;)

~Cg~

Knifefighter

11-17-2007, 08:31 AM

The reason for this question is because I am mostly in agreement with your post except for this 'Little Beginning Idea' thing. I can see learning the tools(SLT) first and the tactics(applications) later, but definitley not any tactics(applications) before you even know what tools(Idea=SLT) to use.

Enlighten a brotha ,please! ;)

~Cg~

From the very beginning, the tools should come from the actual applications that happen during fighting. Most of the movements in SLT are not done that way in fighting.

Compare that with the beginning techniques of Muay Thai or BJJ. From the very beginning, students are learning the exact same movements they will use during fighting.

The reason for the difference is that SLT is based on theories of how WC should be developed, while the beginning techniques in MT and BJJ are based on the actual problems encountered when fighting.

YungChun

11-17-2007, 08:50 AM

Most of the movements in SLT are not done that way in fighting.

Compare that with the beginning techniques of Muay Thai or BJJ. From the very beginning, students are learning the exact same movements they will use during fighting.

The reason for the difference is that SLT is based on theories of how WC should be developed, while the beginning techniques in MT and BJJ are based on the actual problems encountered when fighting.

Some of the movements are rarely used.. Perhaps they are not well understood.

Most of the movements are used as is in application.

In the first section, arguably the most important, what do you have?

The most basic breakdown and learning of the most basic tools, mechanics and tactics.. Simple tools and tactics so clear, same in application, but stripped down, broken down for learning, a simple beginning, yes done in a classical way..eeeek!

Knifefighter

11-17-2007, 08:55 AM

Some of the movements are rarely used.. Perhaps they are not well understood.

Most of the movements are used as is in application.

Really? How much of this is done in application?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k

YungChun

11-17-2007, 09:06 AM

Really? How much of this is done in application?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k

The tools are the tools.. Some of how Mike plays the form is different from what I know... No one is going to tell you that you can learn how to fight doing this..

This kind of stuff, is a lesson in basic tools and motion.. Like saying, here is a basic expression of tool A, tool B, motion A, mechanic C, etc.. If you see the value in how the tools are used later then you do.. If not..then certainly you won't see that by watching a beginner WCK dictionary in motion, a form..

Knifefighter

11-17-2007, 09:15 AM

The tools are the tools.. Some of how Mike plays the form is different from what I know... No one is going to tell you that you can learn how to fight doing this..

This kind of stuff, is a lesson in basic tools and motion.. Like saying, here is a basic expression of tool A, tool B, motion A, mechanic C, etc.. If you see the value in how the tools are used later then you do.. If not..then certainly you won't see that by watching a beginner WCK dictionary in motion, a form..

Why not learn the basic tools and motions exactly as they will be done in application in the first place as is done in BJJ and MT? Why learn them in manners in which you are not learning how to fight?

sihing

11-17-2007, 09:35 AM

Why not learn the basic tools and motions exactly as they will be done in application in the first place as is done in BJJ and MT? Why learn them in manners in which you are not learning how to fight?

Good question:) Basically, WC teaches specific structures and mechanics, if I teach right off the bat, how to defend this or that attack, too much is going on for them to use or express that structure, that soon (trust me, Ive been teaching WC for over a decade, and most that come into the class cant perform even the basic punch correctly, nevermind stepping and defending at the same time), therefore if every class is made up of application only, they will not have enough practice regarding learning structure and WC body mechanics. The forms, IMO, are basics, because they are done alone, and are basically dead. The various training platforms we have with partners is much more alive and more able to teach one the structure they need to use what WC is trying to teach them, after that the full contact stuff is done. Forms allow a way for the beginner to learn at their own pace, take their time and understand what they are requiring their body to do. My body mechanics have definetly changed in the last 2 yrs (whether for the good or bad is not the question), part of this is from forms practice and understanding what the forms are for.

James

P.S. Dale, in all your experience fighting and full contact, what do you find harder to succeed at. Stand up fighting and Knocking someone out, or ground grappling and submissions. Just curious, thx.

YungChun

11-17-2007, 10:13 AM

Why not learn the basic tools and motions exactly as they will be done in application in the first place as is done in BJJ and MT? Why learn them in manners in which you are not learning how to fight?
It's too formalized, perhaps, but then it's a classical ART.. It is what it is.. and yes they have forms.. I hate them.. But I do think they serve a purpose..

What you get in a gym, with "functional arts" instead of a form, you have Trainer Joe saying things like, stand this way, now keep this other hand here; move this foot over there and then when you punch twist the foot and rotate the hips, etc.. Of course, the trainer has to show the noobs how to punch, or how a particular punch or whatever tool is done.. The difference? One is first taught in a form, while the other is just taught...

I do see problems with forms and I also see some benefits.. In the end the forms are not the real problem IMO.. Again, we're talking about a TMA and not a bunch of hard core folks fighting out of the Cobra Kai MMA Gym who are looking to make a name for themselves in NHB..

Wayfaring

11-17-2007, 11:00 AM

Compare that with the beginning techniques of Muay Thai or BJJ. From the very beginning, students are learning the exact same movements they will use during fighting.

BS. How many competition wins do you ever see with basic armbar from the guard?

Knifefighter

11-17-2007, 11:37 AM

BS. How many competition wins do you ever see with basic armbar from the guard?

WFT... You must be joking right? Are you trolling me? More than I can count. Do you know anything about the ground game?

Unlike the WC crowd, I can easily provide evidence.

Here are just a few for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VxXXu98jIc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7y0F7_ZHb0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI9q02fpt3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPD_zfanVMI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e67uap4ZEzE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O1E_2mjIL0

Have you been in a coma for the last 15 years?

forever young

11-17-2007, 02:12 PM

BS. How many competition wins do you ever see with basic armbar from the guard?

i havent gone through all kf's links but roger gracie just submitted robert drysdale (brasa's top instructor) by armbar from guard (pretty much the first thing you learn).

Wayfaring

11-17-2007, 05:40 PM

WFT... You must be joking right? Are you trolling me? More than I can count. Do you know anything about the ground game?

Unlike the WC crowd, I can easily provide evidence.

Here are just a few for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VxXXu98jIc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7y0F7_ZHb0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI9q02fpt3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPD_zfanVMI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e67uap4ZEzE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O1E_2mjIL0

Have you been in a coma for the last 15 years?

Which one of those videos is a BJJ Gi competition match? I didn't see any one.
I'm not talking about doing armbars from guard in low level MMA shows where the opponent has little grappling skill and doesn't protect his head when trying to stand up pass.

I'm talking about going down to your local BJJ tournament and categorizing how many competition submissions there are in a tournament from basic armbar from the guard. I didn't see any the last one I attended. What's the last one you've got in competion?

Note there are exceptions - like Roger Gracie armbarring Jacare, and Kron Gracie winning Mundials with a standard lapel choke from mount.

But you're saying what you learn on the first day is what you use in a fight. That's complete crap. Yes it's tested rolling. But what works in competitions is not that stuff - it's more detailed. Just like any other martial art.

And before you go on about this, your exact quote was "Compare that with the beginning techniques of Muay Thai or BJJ. From the very beginning, students are learning the exact same movements they will use during fighting."

And I completely disagree. There are nuances to applying things in fighting that are not there doing technique. Like armbar from the guard for example. Baret Yoshida teaches this basic in 2 steps - the first step being to lock the shoulder down - you don't go over the head, you go armbar foot to top of the shoulder, then the second movement is over the head armbar - precisely for the reason that in the basic way it's taught in BJJ you're seldom going to pull it off rolling unless someone doesn't know about it or isn't expecting it or doesn't have good ground skills, kind of like your video links.

No I haven't been in a coma, and no I'm not drinking the muy thai and bjj kool aid either. Some of that is just as fad as fake boobs in LA.

Wayfaring

11-17-2007, 05:44 PM

i havent gone through all kf's links but roger gracie just submitted robert drysdale (brasa's top instructor) by armbar from guard (pretty much the first thing you learn).

What Roger Gracie does in competition and the first thing you learn in BJJ are worlds apart. He has little detailed twists on most all basic stuff that is light years beyond what most people are doing. It's definitely not first day material.

He also submittted Jacare by armbar, breaking his arm but still losing on points in one of the most classic battles of all time.

Again, not what you learn on the first day.

Nick Forrer

11-17-2007, 06:55 PM

i havent gone through all kf's links but roger gracie just submitted robert drysdale (brasa's top instructor) by armbar from guard (pretty much the first thing you learn).

The Vieira brothers are the top Brasa instructors..... not Robert Drysdale

Knifefighter

11-17-2007, 06:56 PM

Which one of those videos is a BJJ Gi competition match? I didn't see any one.
I'm not talking about doing armbars from guard in low level MMA shows where the opponent has little grappling skill and doesn't protect his head when trying to stand up pass.

I'm talking about going down to your local BJJ tournament and categorizing how many competition submissions there are in a tournament from basic armbar from the guard. I didn't see any the last one I attended. What's the last one you've got in competion?.

You've got to be kidding. What level of BJJ are you? Arm bars from the guard are all over the place at BJJ tourneys. I've won a bunch of matches from guard arm bars, as well as lost a few to them also. The reason I posted the MMA clips was because I was talkng about fighting.

You want arm bars in BJJ, here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8q-oDRZ-G8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b4nqem6LmA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjlWS512xs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9kxo8yHHmA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I4bVSP2ReM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d24bD3RHYbY&feature=related

And speaking of arm bars from the guard while fighting, here's one of my old teammates pulling one off in one of our old NHB matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYbk42U41Xo

Knifefighter

11-17-2007, 06:59 PM

What Roger Gracie does in competition and the first thing you learn in BJJ are worlds apart. He has little detailed twists on most all basic stuff that is light years beyond what most people are doing. It's definitely not first day material.

All Roger is doing is taking the basic technique and doing based on all of the real time experience he has... that's exactly what makes the functional arts functional

Nick Forrer

11-17-2007, 07:02 PM

What Roger Gracie does in competition and the first thing you learn in BJJ are worlds apart. He has little detailed twists on most all basic stuff that is light years beyond what most people are doing. It's definitely not first day material.

He also submittted Jacare by armbar, breaking his arm but still losing on points in one of the most classic battles of all time.

Again, not what you learn on the first day.

The 'detailed twists' are the set up for the armbar i.e. the fakes, the timing, the combinations etc. But the mechanics are essentially the same.

Same goes for the RNC...how Marcelo does it is the same as everyone else...its just his set up and how he combines it with other techniques that is more sophisticated.

Armbar and collar chokes/rnc are the most common submission in MMA and BJJ. If you think otherwise I suggest you watch more fights.

Knifefighter

11-17-2007, 07:06 PM

The 'detailed twists' are the set up for the armbar i.e. the fakes, the timing, the combinations etc. But the mechanics are essentially the same.

Same goes for the RNC...how Marcelo does it is the same as everyone else...its just his set up and how he combines it with other techniques that is more sophisticated.

Armbar and collar chokes/rnc are the most common submission in MMA and BJJ. If you think otherwise I suggest you watch more fights.

Wayfaring is either clueless or is trolling us.

Nick Forrer

11-17-2007, 07:07 PM

Wayfaring is either clueless or is trolling us.

Im going with clueless

anerlich

11-17-2007, 07:43 PM

BS. How many competition wins do you ever see with basic armbar from the guard?

Lots. From what I've seen, it would be neck and neck with triangle for the most common submission from the guard in competition.

Wayfaring

11-17-2007, 11:38 PM

You want arm bars in BJJ, here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8q-oDRZ-G8
No gi grappling. Caption reads "Pete shows why you don't lean over and hold someone's head when in their guard". Not BJJ, not that skilled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b4nqem6LmA
No gi grappling. Not BJJ. Arm bar from rubber guard. Oh yeah - you learn that on your first BJJ lesson - the rubber guard sequence from Eddie. Nicely done btw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjlWS512xs
Gi grappling. White belts. At least it's BJJ. Not that skilled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9kxo8yHHmA
Gi grappling BJJ. A blue belt vs. white belts. The first match is a collar choke from inside guard. Sheesh. Opponents not that skilled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I4bVSP2ReM
University Judo competition. Where's the BJJ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d24bD3RHYbY&feature=related
Caption "BJJ meets Judo". Nuff said.

And speaking of arm bars from the guard while fighting, here's one of my old teammates pulling one off in one of our old NHB matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYbk42U41Xo
Actually, nice setup and finish there. Not a BJJ competition though.

Not really one case where an armbar is finished like it is taught right from the beginning. Unless it is against white belts.

Wayfaring

11-17-2007, 11:46 PM

The 'detailed twists' are the set up for the armbar i.e. the fakes, the timing, the combinations etc. But the mechanics are essentially the same.
The "essentially the same" depends on how much detail you want to overlook. What you use in wing chun for fighting is "essentially the same" as you learn in forms. It just has different details.

Same goes for the RNC...how Marcelo does it is the same as everyone else...its just his set up and how he combines it with other techniques that is more sophisticated.

This is why many people seek out Marcelo for privates, and why nobody seeks you out for privates.

Armbar and collar chokes/rnc are the most common submission in MMA and BJJ. If you think otherwise I suggest you watch more fights.

According to Rigan Machado, who actually took recorded statistics on this for researching his book "Triangle", the triangle was the most frequent finish, accounting for approximately 60% of all submission finishes across the worlds.

Maybe you're talking about UK events. Do they actually have BJJ in the UK yet?

Wayfaring

11-17-2007, 11:52 PM

Lots. From what I've seen, it would be neck and neck with triangle for the most common submission from the guard in competition.

I've seen evidence for the triangle personally as well as from Rigan Machado.

I have yet to see an armbar finished in competition from the guard like it is taught in first BJJ classes - foot in hip, trap opposite shouder, angle out, finish. Unless it's like the beginner or white belt division. You know, the one Terence would compete in if he actually competed.

I see people getting snagged leaning over too much in white belts, or from more advanced setups or scenarios, including from triangle setups.

Wayfaring

11-18-2007, 12:02 AM

The Vieira brothers are the top Brasa instructors..... not Robert Drysdale

I think he's talking about the Black Belt open finals of the Mundials 2007 in Los Angeles. I haven't seen that match yet. Roger Gracie vs. Robert Drysdale.

Drysdale runs a Brasa school about an hour outside of Sao Paulo. He goes into Sao Paulo frequently to train at the Brasa school there - run by Leo Vieira.

Drysdale submitted Marcelo Garcia in the ADCC open class this last year to win the overall championship.

And again, what Roger does with basics is not what is taught on the first day. From all accounts I've read, Rickson does the same kind of stuff - smashing the most talented black belts with fundamentals. But these are fundamentals on a whole other level.

Not first lesson stuff.

Knifefighter

11-18-2007, 01:00 AM

Wayfaring-
What is your BJJ rank?

Nick Forrer

11-18-2007, 05:12 AM

.

Maybe you're talking about UK events. Do they actually have BJJ in the UK yet?

No not yet (give us a break, we only recently stopped living in castles and slaying dragons) ....I've had to train in the much inferior method of catch wrestling instead....buts its okay, I get special distance learning instruction from Tony C who sends me videotapes each month (as well as homework assignments like going out and 'ripping' someone at a local pub).:cool:

BTW how is that HFY 'antigrappling' working out for you? One day we should match the offence of my deadly catch wrestling skills against the defence of your unbeatable HFY anti grappling. Then again maybe the universe would blow up or something.:eek:

Wayfaring

11-18-2007, 08:15 AM

No not yet (give us a break, we only recently stopped living in castles and slaying dragons) ....
As I suspected.

BTW how is that HFY 'antigrappling' working out for you?
Better than your learning from Tony C's "Lost Art of Hairloss Prevention" is working out for you.

Wayfaring

11-18-2007, 08:27 AM

Wayfaring-
What is your BJJ rank?

I don't actually have to be skilled personally in BJJ. Because after all, it's not about my personal skill. It's about training methods. If you train in methods that are realistic like Roger Gracie does, then your actual fighting skills will increase just like Rogers. And if you need proof of that, just look at some of Roger's competition tapes.

Knifefighter

11-18-2007, 09:25 AM

I don't actually have to be skilled personally in BJJ.

As I suspected.

Ultimatewingchun

11-18-2007, 01:19 PM

"No not yet (give us a break, we only recently stopped living in castles and slaying dragons) ....I've had to train in the much inferior method of catch wrestling instead....buts its okay, I get special distance learning instruction from Tony C who sends me videotapes each month (as well as homework assignments like going out and 'ripping' someone at a local pub)." (Nick Ferror)

***PERHAPS you might want to contact www.scientificwrestling.com and order JOSH BARNETT'S new catch video entitled: "HOW TO ATTACK THE GUARD".

You might learn something. :rolleyes:

Nick Forrer

11-18-2007, 01:22 PM

I don't actually have to be skilled personally in BJJ. Because after all, it's not about my personal skill. .

Translation: faixa blanca

Nick Forrer

11-18-2007, 01:25 PM

***PERHAPS you might want to contact www.scientificwrestling.com and order JOSH BARNETT'S new catch video entitled: "HOW TO ATTACK THE GUARD".

You might learn something. :rolleyes:

It was a joke Vic. You have them in New York right?;)

Besides isnt that the website of the Jake 'The Snake' Shannon. I thought you guys were mortal enemies:eek:

Nick Forrer

11-18-2007, 01:29 PM

Better than your learning from Tony C's "Lost Art of Hairloss Prevention" is working out for you.

Well I ordered the ripping tape but got confused. He said pull the other guys hair out but I thought he meant pull your own.

Now about that mastery of the space/time contiuum with the HFY formula. Do I need Dilithium crystals for that? Or can I just reverse the polarity of my hyper drive?

anerlich

11-18-2007, 01:40 PM

LOL at a thread on WC theories turning into a BJJ / Catch / Antigrappling b!tchfest.

Wayfaring, way to go mentioning catch and thus bringing previously uninvolved adversaries like Victor into your pointless argument. All the other Poms beside Nick will probably want to have a go as well since you insulted Britain. Looks like you need more blackboard lessons on "strategy".

Care to say something stupid and unrelated to the thread about Australia or TWC? I'm feeling a bit left out.

Dan_chi_sau

11-18-2007, 02:37 PM

actually, some of us poms are quite content to just sit back and enjoy this...;) its getting quite amusing.

anerlich

11-18-2007, 02:48 PM

Hey, DCS, I lived in Leicester as a child. Maybe I can become an honorary Pom for the purposes of this thread - with approval of you guys, of course.

k gledhill

11-18-2007, 03:13 PM

yorkshire man in nyc ,in the house here ....just eating popcorn :D

Dan_chi_sau

11-18-2007, 04:46 PM

this thread just gets wierder and wierder......lets discuss wing chun...no, lets argue bjj/grappling/anti grappling......no, lets all go 'hooray, I'm english'!

all we need now is the odd super hero.....lmao

so, leicester lad eh? remember much of it? the place has had a face lift the last few years.

hooray for the english! ;)

Nick Forrer

11-18-2007, 05:10 PM

all we need now is the odd super hero.....lmao

)

Yeah where is our leg locking, blind side stepping, pasta eating theosophist when we need him?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBobrCBTNI

Someone needs to save the forum from the scourge of Terence and his evil 'cold dose of reality' Ray Gun before he infects more people with the dreaded 'common sense' disease

Dan_chi_sau

11-18-2007, 05:19 PM

Yeah where is our leg locking, blind side stepping, pasta eating theosophist when we need him?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBobrCBTNI

Someone needs to save the forum from the scourge of Terence and his evil 'cold dose of reality' Ray Gun before he infects more people with the dreaded 'common sense' disease

holy theosophist batman! lmao

anerlich

11-18-2007, 05:20 PM

so, leicester lad eh? remember much of it? the place has had a face lift the last few years.

Not really, unfortunately. We left about 45 years ago - I remember the address was 89 Northdene Rd and playing Cowboys and Indians with the two Barton kids who lived next door. There were fields out the back across the street where we used to go check out the railway line and trains. There was an evil kid called Steve across the street who nearly brained me with a big rock one day. I got this **** hot tricycle one Christmas that came to Australia with us and lasted a long time, until my youngest brother left it sitting in someone's driveway and they ran it over.

We used to ring people's doorbells on the way to and from school and run away, hide and watch them come to the door and get p1ssed off.

I've been back to Britain since, but not Leicester. And I've stopped ringing doorbells. Now I argue on the internet instead.

Dan_chi_sau

11-18-2007, 05:23 PM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HoUpF7rvfnk

Wayfaring

11-18-2007, 06:11 PM

Wayfaring, way to go mentioning catch and thus bringing previously uninvolved adversaries like Victor into your pointless argument. All the other Poms beside Nick will probably want to have a go as well since you insulted Britain. Looks like you need more blackboard lessons on "strategy".

Care to say something stupid and unrelated to the thread about Australia or TWC? I'm feeling a bit left out.

Anerlich, you need to take Chopper's advice here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y

And it was Nick who brought up catch tapes.

Wayfaring

11-18-2007, 06:14 PM

As I suspected.

Is this what T would call an "ad hominem attack"?

I'm still waiting for your explanations of how me training one day in BJJ will teach me the same fundamentals I need to know to win the Mundials.

Wayfaring

11-18-2007, 06:19 PM

Translation: faixa blanca

Oooh. You speak Portugese. That must mean your grappling doesn't suck.

Knifefighter

11-18-2007, 06:21 PM

Is this what T would call an "ad hominem attack"?

I'm still waiting for your explanations of how me training one day in BJJ will teach me the same fundamentals I need to know to win the Mundials.

BJJ 101- takedown; pass the guard; side control to mount; choke until opponent taps.

Win the Mundials, takdown (2 pts.); pass the guard (3 pts.); mount (4 pts.); choke and get the tap (win).

Same fundamentals as day one.

Or how about this:

Train BJJ for six months; go against WC guy with no ground game who has trained for 12 years; clinch; takedown; side control (since there is not a guard to pass); mount; ground and pound; take the back when opponent turns over; finish with rear choke.

Here's the thing with BJJ and other functional systems... as an advanced practioner, you are just adding on to the basics you have learned as a beginner. Unlike the the non-functional arts in which the basics you learned as a beginner don't work in the first place and are passed off as "learning the basic body mechanics and teaching energy".

anerlich

11-18-2007, 06:33 PM

Anerlich, you need to take Chopper's advice here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y

And it was Nick who brought up catch tapes.

I can't get youtube at work. How about an abbreviated transcript?

I apologise about the catch tapes mistake, not about anything else.

I've got Rigan's book. He signed it and all. Said the triangle was most popular, zip about any other finishes. His stats must be true, after all, one of his extended family told us 90% of fights end up on the ground.

BTW, holding T up as a standard for posting ettiquette is probably not going to help your cause any. Though I'm not sure what that was any more ... :confused:

Wayfaring

11-18-2007, 06:33 PM

BJJ 101- takedown; pass the guard; side control to mount; choke until opponent taps.

Win the Mundials, takdown (2 pts.); pass the guard (3 pts.); mount (4 pts.); choke and get the tap (win).

Same fundamentals as day one.

So why is the train BJJ for 6 months necessary? Obviously since it's the same fundamentals from day one I should be able to beat a WC guy with no ground game without the 6 months training, right?

Or how about this:

Train BJJ for six months; go against WC guy with no ground game who has trained for 12 years; clinch; takedown; side control (since there is not a guard to pass); mount; ground and pound; take the back when opponent turns over; finish with rear choke.

OK how about it? Nice theory. It doesn't mean you can pull off a clinch and takedown against someone good with 6 months training.

Knifefighter

11-18-2007, 06:38 PM

So why is the train BJJ for 6 months necessary? Obviously since it's the same fundamentals from day one I should be able to beat a WC guy with no ground game without the 6 months training, right?

To beat someone with no ground training who has no clue about basic ground positions? Yeah, you could do that in a day.

Wayfaring

11-18-2007, 06:45 PM

I can't get youtube at work. How about an abbreviated transcript?

I apologise about the catch tapes mistake, not about anything else.

I've got Rigan's book. He signed it and all. Said the triangle was most popular, zip about any other finishes. His stats must be true, after all, one of his extended family told us 90% of fights end up on the ground.

BTW, holding T up as a standard for posting ettiquette is probably not going to help your cause any. Though I'm not sure what that was any more ... :confused:

YouTube - I'm sure you've seen your fellow Aussie Ronnie Johns around Sydney. I wouldn't want you spending your boss's time reviewing a transcript of his antics.

Rigan gets around.

I'm not much of a posting ettiquette enthusiast, with or without T's fine example for all of us to emulate.

Do I have to have a cause to enter a discussion on terminology, methods, theories and maxims? I was just debating back and forth over the idea that what you learn in wing chun isn't what you use fighting versus the same concept in BJJ.
There are plenty of attribute development exercises in BJJ, just like wing chun.
But some seem to think BJJ is some kind of magic formula, when in essence it's just one avenue to address a ground game. And it usually doesn't have good takedowns either, and it's clinch game isn't top notch. So it has inherent problems to get through just like many standard wing chun training approaches.

I don't have a cause - I'm just killing time and having a discussion.

Wayfaring

11-18-2007, 06:50 PM

To beat someone with no ground training who has no clue about basic ground positions? Yeah, you could do that in a day.

Finding these people is getting harder and harder. Maybe a lot easier in 1990's. Nowadays most of your basic MMA guys who do sub wrestling aren't going to get beat by lower belt BJJ guys. Marcelo Garcia just lost his debut MMA fight.

Knifefighter

11-18-2007, 06:56 PM

Finding these people is getting harder and harder. Maybe a lot easier in 1990's. Nowadays most of your basic MMA guys who do sub wrestling aren't going to get beat by lower belt BJJ guys. Marcelo Garcia just lost his debut MMA fight.

Yep and that's why it takes more and more of building your game up and becoming better.

But it's still about the basics... ask any coach in any sport and he will tell you the same.

If you had two hours to teach your kid how to fight a bully at school, which do you think would be more effective? Teach him as much SLT as you can, or teach him how to clinch, trip, mount, and punch from the mount?

Liddel

11-18-2007, 07:16 PM

Train BJJ for six months; go against WC guy with no ground game who has trained for 12 years; clinch; takedown; side control (since there is not a guard to pass); mount; ground and pound; take the back when opponent turns over; finish with rear choke.

I have Ten years training in VT - no ground game - ive sparred grapplers with several years training in BJJ and it wasnt that easy... you talk in the very theorising BS you give others 5hit about.

Here's the thing with BJJ and other functional systems... as an advanced practioner, you are just adding on to the basics you have learned as a beginner. Unlike the the non-functional arts in which the basics you learned as a beginner don't work in the first place and are passed off as "learning the basic body mechanics and teaching energy".

Thats the same for me and i do VT :eek: :cool:

Havent been here for 5 odd days - nothing changes...
Its not even worth coming here anymore... :o
People seem to be here to argue more than 'discuss' Wing Chun...er i mean BJJ ???

DREW

Knifefighter

11-18-2007, 07:22 PM

I have Ten years training in VT - no ground game - ive sparred grapplers with several years training in BJJ and it wasnt that easy... you talk in the very theorising BS you give others 5hit about.

Never said it was easy.

Thats the same for me and i do VT :eek: must be functional...for me...:cool:

If you are doing the same techniques and movements you learned as a beginner, then what you are doing is functional. I doubt you are using many movements from SLT in your fighting, though.

Ultimatewingchun

11-18-2007, 08:54 PM

It was a joke Vic. You have them in New York right?;)

Besides isnt that the website of the Jake 'The Snake' Shannon. I thought you guys were mortal enemies:eek:

***Yeah, we are. :rolleyes:

But that doesn't mean I can't turn my old friend Nick onto a good dvd! :cool:

...........................................

"holy theosophist batman! lmao" (Dan chi sao)

***LOL. :)

Phil Redmond

11-18-2007, 09:51 PM

. . . I doubt you are using many movements from SLT in your fighting, though.

Almost all of my hand techniques I use in fighting come from SLT. The rest come from CK, Biu Jee. SLT contains the alphabet I use to create, words, sentences, phrases, prose.

Knifefighter

11-18-2007, 09:57 PM

Almost all of my hand techniques I use in fighting come from SLT. The rest come from CK, Biu Jee. SLT contains the alphabet I use to create, words, sentences, phrases, prose.

Please post a clip of you doing these motions in sparring or fighting.

Phil Redmond

11-18-2007, 10:05 PM

Please post a clip of you doing these motions in sparring or fighting.

Well there are some in the Lei Tai clips but I can do a clip showing what I mean.

Knifefighter

11-18-2007, 10:09 PM

Well there are some in the Lei Tai clips but I can do a clip showing what I mean.

The Lei Tai clips would be fine.

Can you point out the specific movements from here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k
and the specific movements from those matches that are the same?

Liddel

11-18-2007, 10:17 PM

If you are doing the same techniques and movements you learned as a beginner, then what you are doing is functional.

Sure but some actions are trained in isolation as a newbie and then added to. The individual parts of the whole are very much the same. Thats what you must realise with VT.

I doubt you are using many movements from SLT in your fighting, though.

You should have said "I guess" not "I doubt" LOL

This is not true for me. Ive taken SLT actions and put them on/ added, with CK foot work and bada bing !

If one watched me spar only looking at me from the waist up, the actions are extremly simlar just not as fixed.

Conversly, if one looked at me from the waist down the footwork again would be extremly similar in behaviour, just not as fixed.

Do you not think i punch palm and elbow in fighting ?
Hell the chin jab (using the Palm) i use often in sparring from SLT and CK is almost exactly the same as the CQB chin jab my sparring partners have from Police and SAS training, which has been proven effective time and time again for them and me. :rolleyes:

DREW

Liddel

11-18-2007, 10:32 PM

Can you point out the specific movements from here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k
and the specific movements from those matches that are the same?

Tan Sao - which resembles a good head guard (one side) with a little more space between your palm and your head.

Pak Sao - which is exactly like a parry/check - but not pushing or exerting force into the attack action (like you thought it was on another thread, even though its the opposite of VT thinking) its only creating an angle to lead the force of the attack away. Very minimal movement required and often most of my movement comes from the horse to angle off.

Guarn Sao - which is exactly like a knifing action with the forearm from boxing for straight punches.

The list goes on, but cause we've gone over this soo much and your resolute in your POV.... ill leave it at that.

DREW :cool:

Knifefighter

11-18-2007, 10:38 PM

Tan Sao - which resembles a good head guard (one side) with a little more space between your palm and your head.

Pak Sao - which is exactly like a parry/check - but not pushing or exerting force into the attack action (like you thought it was on another thread, even though its the opposite of VT thinking) its only creating an angle to lead the force of the attack away. Very minimal movement required and often most of my movement comes from the horse to angle off.

Guarn Sao - which is exactly like a knifing action with the forearm from boxing for straight punches.

The list goes on, but cause we've gone over this soo much and your resolute in your POV.... ill leave it at that.

DREW :cool:

OK... so pick the movements from the first clip (i.e. specific times) and the movements from the Lei Tai clips (again, point out the specific times) where they are the same.

Liddel

11-18-2007, 11:32 PM

OK... so pick the movements from the first clip (i.e. specific times) and the movements from the Lei Tai clips (again, point out the specific times) where they are the same.

na im sweet bro ;)

Ultimatewingchun

11-19-2007, 12:30 AM

First of all, Dale, if you're going to spend the greater part of your adult senior citizen life on this wing chun forum - then you should at least make it your business to know enough about what goes on here to differentiate who's who and what's what.

If you ask Phil for some SLT applications then show a TWC version of SLT. Which is different in many respects than the vid you posted of some of other wing chun lineage's SLT.

But that said, here's part of what's in TWC SLT that was used in the Lei Tai fights by the two TWC guys:

The Centerline Principle
Vertical Punches that are used with the elbows down-and-in centerline principle.
Bong sao
Pak sao

.....................................

NOW, go to:

www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips_historical.asp

then go to: AUSTRALIAN NEWS SEGMENT (on the right hand side of the page)

Watch what goes on from 4:20-4:35 in that particular vid.

k gledhill

11-19-2007, 08:17 AM

Dale in a striking attacking method like Ving Tsun, the forms are dealing with a spatial realm not clinching , you wont see a similar 'hands on' functionality of wrestling or bjj, simply for that reason...we strike ...the idea being developed is to strike using an arm angle ,,, the arm angles are being developed in the early stages of SLT form. Alone the form looks very strange and not very functional because it isnt a fighting kata like karate , no way , we dont adopt the stance or do the freefighting this way. The idea is to have strikes /punches/ that utilize the forearms as a defensive line , in rotation from acute angle that allow the strikes to both penetrate to strike while the angle of the forearms [controlled by elbow placement] makes contact or deflects anything in their path....this strike /deflect idea only works if there is an arm to x over and or under from a side or flank. Using the SLT to stay in front and center to attacks is simply wrong thinking ...
To make the spatial idea work we need to maneuver to the angles of attack as dictated by our opponent....so we need a form Chum Kil [ movement ] isolated again . not a kata, but to just train alignment of the previous form SLT angles /ideas , with movement to point and hit in a firefight without being hit...at close quarter s......our chosen weapon , the fist, needs to be in exactly the right distance to deliver a functional punch , while moving with an non complying attacker....

theres more, but looking for a function in anothwise abstract arm form ...you wont see it , nobody will. Time is no guarantee either of understanding , so saying "I did it for 25 years" , means little.

sihing

11-19-2007, 08:47 AM

Good post Kev, and I like you new writing style, easier to understand and spot on IMO.

James

sanjuro_ronin

11-19-2007, 08:48 AM

I think he's talking about the Black Belt open finals of the Mundials 2007 in Los Angeles. I haven't seen that match yet. Roger Gracie vs. Robert Drysdale.

Drysdale runs a Brasa school about an hour outside of Sao Paulo. He goes into Sao Paulo frequently to train at the Brasa school there - run by Leo Vieira.

Drysdale submitted Marcelo Garcia in the ADCC open class this last year to win the overall championship.

And again, what Roger does with basics is not what is taught on the first day. From all accounts I've read, Rickson does the same kind of stuff - smashing the most talented black belts with fundamentals. But these are fundamentals on a whole other level.

Not first lesson stuff.

Technical skill and "ring experience" are two different things that go together and at times make it hard for peopel to see the difference.

sanjuro_ronin

11-19-2007, 08:48 AM

Translation: faixa blanca

Branca, nor Blanca.

k gledhill

11-19-2007, 10:29 AM

this flanking idea is what guys who fight using muay thai /boxers etc....give guys [us] who deliver straight line chain punch attacks a hard time [us you me]...the hooking / circular punch/ kick lines, thai/boxers deliver ARE FLANKING strikes to a straight line of force or entry [ what we are waiting for , or should be]...we deliver too early or by chasing a lost engagemnt too slowly into their centers and counters incorrectly like bulls , simply throwing air chain punches like idiots... falling right into the waiting arms of a BJJ human origami expert ...DONE TO US, WHAT WE SEEK TO DO TO THEM :rolleyes:...ergo the tactical baseline counter attack approach of both TWC and some WSL [mine anyway, i cant speak for everyone] adopt this baseline counter attack approach, rather than deliver a bull's charge with chain punches from 5 ft away :D ..by adopting a commited attack line at such a far distance its a piece of cake to hand the VT guy his ass on a plate or simply face and keep flanking punches coming in..and if the VT then for his mistake further turns inside these flanking punches to use 2 arms against one flanking circling attack ...standing like he does chisao turning this way and that arm chasing its wrong thinking ....your toast in a freefight , but it worked in class :D because the guy was throwing punches at 'gates' not your head full force from 2 sides while charging at your pose :o.
Theres a lot of room for erors in VT simply due to the levels of understanding and becoming styleized to function like a 'kata' set piece bs....like an ex smoker I am more critical of bad vt than Dale or Terence.... but as one does in the street if you meet a smoker you dont tell them to stop doing it :D you cant tell everyone , each has loyalties to a brand ...hooked in cultism, friends who also do it, they do it for the convienece of locality , not practicality ...lose weight , stop smoking etc....not everyone wants to hear what I or a few others have to say...and I personally dont care if you understand it or not ...:cool:

Nick Forrer

11-19-2007, 10:29 AM

Branca, nor Blanca.

Obrigado meu amigo

sihing

11-19-2007, 11:30 AM

k gledhill

11-19-2007, 12:42 PM

tan sao is only training the 1st 1/2 of a punch....jumsao is the 1st 1/2 of a punch...the shape shouldnt be seen in frefighting just the angles of arms relative to our centerline and the angle of attack/side

...and never a tansao and a punch thrown extending together .....common mistake ... a training exercise misinerpreted as a 'tan -da' or a redundant intepretation of lin sil dida, hitting and blocking at the same time :D...tan da isnt your 2 arms its one arm doing the actions of 2 in 1 beat...same with jum sao...not 1block 2 hit....

....fighting one arm with your 2 at a basic level ...what advantage is that ? a guy throws a punch and I face it turn at it ? use 2 arms to block 1 punch and borrow it force while hitting with the other hand? is that an advantage ? and I am still front and center to the attack line ? :D how do I get out of this mess ? ..what if my 'da' misses ? ooops instant origami ...doesnt your arm look good as a pretzel ? can you ground fight ? you better learn quick 'cause thats the next place your going.....:D

sanjuro_ronin

11-19-2007, 12:58 PM

Branca, nor Blanca.

Obrigado meu amigo

O praser foi todo meu.

And I like how you quoted my typo :D

Wayfaring

11-19-2007, 03:35 PM

If you had two hours to teach your kid how to fight a bully at school, which do you think would be more effective? Teach him as much SLT as you can, or teach him how to clinch, trip, mount, and punch from the mount?

Honestly I don't think 2 hours would make much of a difference in any case other than mindset and strategy. However, given that many bullies outweigh their victims substantially, I don't think the clinch/trip route is ideal there. With 2 hours training only they would likely get thrown to the grown and mounted by strength/weight/aggressiveness factors. Most every kid I've seen knows instinctively how to mount and punch from the mount. Especially bullies. With 2 hours I'd probably go with maintaining distance, mobility and angles and working good head shots combined with a sprawl. I would also teach basic guard - offbalancing/grips to keep from being hit, and the basic bridge and roll mount escape for defense.

These days at school any kind of fighting is much less tolerated than when I grew up. They expel kids for that and for bullying.

Knifefighter

11-19-2007, 03:43 PM

NOW, go to:

www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips_historical.asp

then go to: AUSTRALIAN NEWS SEGMENT (on the right hand side of the page)

Watch what goes on from 4:20-4:35 in that particular vid.

Doing a little slap fest with a clueless TV reporter has what to do with fighting?

Dan_chi_sau

11-19-2007, 04:32 PM

thats clever....

Dan_chi_sau

11-19-2007, 04:33 PM

sorry, out of context that looks a bit odd....i was refering to the news clip

Liddel

11-19-2007, 04:50 PM

If you had two hours to teach your kid how to fight a bully at school, which do you think would be more effective? Teach him as much SLT as you can, or teach him how to clinch, trip, mount, and punch from the mount?

I wouldnt show him SLT based on the time frame id immediatly teach him application of several actions within the form, including punching elbows and knees cause i like em....

Sihing73

11-19-2007, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Knifefighter
If you had two hours to teach your kid how to fight a bully at school, which do you think would be more effective? Teach him as much SLT as you can, or teach him how to clinch, trip, mount, and punch from the mount?

Hello,

Consider teaching three basics to be delivered with a punch; Taun/Gaun/Pak. Applying each of these techniques while applying a punch at the same time will provide coverage of most of the upper body while allowing one to attack in synch with defending. Of course adding in some footwork allowing the child to step off the line of attack would be good too

I certainly would not try to teach him to go to the ground as most bullies usually have one or two buddies who hang with them and would not be adverse to helping out should the opportunity arise. But, hey maybe in LA kids still fight fair, one on one and such :rolleyes: I know that in Philly they tend to run in packs. The only bad thing is that if you do beat someone down they are more likely to come back with a gun and shoot you :(But hey I am sure that rolling on the ground will make you less of a target and harder to hit :eek:

Phil Redmond

11-19-2007, 06:18 PM

The Lei Tai clips would be fine.

Can you point out the specific movements from here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k
and the specific movements from those matches that are the same?

I can't comment on applications regarding that particular form but I definately can on the one my student is doing here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz8Z2D7n2Es
I'll make a short clip for you.

Phil Redmond

11-19-2007, 07:41 PM

The Lei Tai clips would be fine.

Can you point out the specific movements from here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k
and the specific movements from those matches that are the same?
Dale, The clip you saw is only a highlight of the fights. But you can see a distinct bong sao (wing arm) at around 1:31 in the Lei Tai clip.
There are other things that you might not catch since you're not a WC practitioner.
Just as I couldn't tell you the nuances of what you did in your matches since I'm not familiar with the technical aspects of what you do. Also, WC doesn't only punch in straight lines. We have a tight round punch that can be taken from the double lan sao in SLT or the tight hook punch in some lineage's Biu Jee form. Circular stikes are useful against people who bob and weave.

We found out that Lei Tai people train to not hit the center of the mask but hit to the side of the mask so we told our guys to punch to the side of the headgear as much as possible. The shock to the side of the head can contribute to a knockout better than straight punching to the front of the mask.
Of course this isn't real fighting but there are elements of the SLT alphabet and Chum Kiu here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aolIZIFX-pg
The shorter guy is a boxer. He's the one that convinced some other boxers to come and train at the NJ school. He's also good friends with Prince Badi. They work out in the "Dungeon" (his basement) on weekends. I'm taking your advice and going to work out with them. I'm only an advanced beginner and can always learn new things. I have some clips that I can email you and give you a detailed description of what is going on.

Phil Redmond

11-19-2007, 09:34 PM

Dale, During the first few fights we told the guys to use the raised leg entry because we watched the Japanese Sanda guys training low kicks in the staging area.
After the first fights we noticed that there was a TV monitor in the staging area where other fighters were watching the fights. So during the last fights our guys were told to use bong sao (SLT) or bong sao lop saos (Chum Kiu) to attack the COM. You'll see guy coming in with a straight punch as our guy moves in. The straight punch is deflected by the (SLT) bong sao and lopped by the (Chum Kiu) lop sao.
Lots of SLT here if you look closely. This is only training but you have to start somewhere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyQH4M550M0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZDkPpWYYoI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi_W8VbLr5A

Here are some principles used against resisting opponents:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0dQGkPaoKA

btw, the parallel (mirror) stance worked very well that day. ;)

Knifefighter

11-19-2007, 10:13 PM

Phil-

Good stuff... Looks like you and your guys are on the right track. Unlike most of the other theoretical non-fighting fantasy based crowd.

Ultimatewingchun

11-19-2007, 10:22 PM

I liked the first, the second, and the fourth clips on post# 131, Phil.

Those guys are on the right track. Particularly liked the nice transitions to knees and elbows in the clinch.

I've got to get down there more often and workout with you guys.

..............................

Oh, and Dale...those guys are learning from Keith and Phil - who learned from this man:

"Doing a little slap fest with a clueless TV reporter has what to do with fighting?"

I guess the guy playing around with the reporter knows something after all. :eek: :cool: :rolleyes: :D

Phil Redmond

11-20-2007, 06:25 AM

. . . . . Oh, and Dale...those guys are learning from Keith and Phil - who learned from this man:

"Doing a little slap fest with a clueless TV reporter has what to do with fighting?"

I guess the guy playing around with the reporter knows something after all. :eek: :cool: :rolleyes: :D
Not learned from, still learning from especially since he's teaching thing's I'd never seen before. I guess since he's getter older (67) he's decided to open up more with his teachings and fighting experiences. Some think he only had those rooftop fights in HK as a teenager but he had lots of fights in Australia as an adult due to racism. There were instances where he had to defend some Chinese against thugs in Australia. There are some references to that fact in Duncan Leung's book.

LoneTiger108

11-20-2007, 06:53 AM

I leave this thread for the weekend and look what happens! :D :eek:

Just a short message to everyone who has posted:

Last time I was here I was asking about published works on Wing Chun, as I'm struggling to find anything that appeals to me.

Any suggestions?

Knifefighter

11-20-2007, 07:11 AM

Oh, and Dale...those guys are learning from Keith and Phil - who learned from this man:

"Doing a little slap fest with a clueless TV reporter has what to do with fighting?"

I guess the guy playing around with the reporter knows something after all. :eek: :cool: :rolleyes: :D

How many times when you have trained in person with him have you put on the gear and sparred as part of your training?

LoneTiger108

11-20-2007, 07:38 AM

I would like anyones opinion on this webpage which has an original piece of text presented to myself and my Si Hing when we founded our Academy.

http://www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk/Curriculum/foundation/foundation.html

Cantonese Terms shown include:

Large charcters - Toe Lee Shing Woi (Students of Lee Shing Association)

1. Gaan Sau Toi Wan
2. Lien Wan Gung Da
3. Tsong Sum Jiik Sin
4. Sei Sik Jii Wai
5. Hoon Wan Luk Sau
6. Po Pye Gaan Da
7. Wang Lan Jarng Dai
8. Fook Bong Cum Lar

This is why this thread was created gentlemen. To share and discuss the finer points of our system, not to compare with others who do not study!

Phil Redmond

11-20-2007, 10:36 AM

Cantonese Terms shown include:

Large charcters - Toe Lee Shing Woi (Students of Lee Shing Association)

1. Gaan Sau Toi Wan
2. Lien Wan Gung Da
3. Tsong Sum Jiik Sin
4. Sei Sik Jii Wai
5. Hoon Wan Luk Sau
6. Po Pye Gaan Da
7. Wang Lan Jarng Dai
8. Fook Bong Cum Lar

This is why this thread was created gentlemen. To share and discuss the finer points of our system, not to compare with others who do not study!
Oops, sorry that your thread got "hijacked". I'll make another one regarding WC fighting pricinples.

Ultimatewingchun

11-20-2007, 11:43 AM

"How many times when you have trained in person with him have you put on the gear and sparred as part of your training?" (Dale)

***OH WAIT,...I get it. If I haven't sparred William Cheung at least as many times as you've rolled live with Royce Gracie - then my p e c k e r isn't as big as yours. :eek: :rolleyes: :cool:

A more pertinent question is how many times have I put on the gear and sparred as part of my training. (It doesn't have to be against William Cheung or even how many times I have done so in front of him).

Answer: I've sparred like that hundreds of times through the years.

And yes, William Cheung has seen me spar (including using weapons) enough times to be able to critique and advise me - since he's my sifu. And I still occasionally attend his seminars to this day (it's been 24 years now).

LoneTiger108

11-20-2007, 02:08 PM

Oops, sorry that your thread got "hijacked". I'll make another one regarding WC fighting pricinples.

It's nothing that bothers me too much Phil, as 'hijacking' threads seems to be the norm around here. Actually, I've enjoyed the read, some have made me giggle.

As far as 'fighting principles' go, what makes you think the 8 lines I share can not be used in fighting? No. 2 as an example comments on continual practice for powerful striking. This line alone is a 'constant' throughout Kung Fu training. The image can be anything, but lets just say it's our signature fist work. How would you practice to gain this power?

Its all in the interpretation, which derives from your own personal experiences. Sometimes each line can be a 'little idea' in itself...

Phil Redmond

11-26-2007, 09:52 PM

I was first taught that tan sao meant palm up block. Once I learned that it didn't I decided to study Cantonese. I've asked many people through the years what Siu Nihm/Lim Tauh means. Most have told me small or little idea. I eventually realized that people who speak an particular language will have different understanding based on their educational level. I decided to ask two Chinese "scholars", one in Detroit and a Chinese proffesor in NJ what the term meant. They both said the same thing and it wasn't little or small idea. I'd like to hear what others including native speakers have to say.

LoneTiger108

11-27-2007, 02:54 AM

Had the 'translators' you talk of studied Wing Chun or Kung Fu before? What did they say? Probably something like 'small recitations for the mind!'

I can also remember being told that the 'principle' of Tan Sau (hand) was that the palm faced upwards, but I was never told that this was the translation. Tan, IMO, translates as spreadout. I believe the Chinese would use the term when they lay a rug on the floor, as the pattern is always facing upwards.

The 'Little Idea' is just yet another abbreviation for our Western mind! It suits the form, and has just stuck with us since the earliest days. No need to change that IMO...

k gledhill

11-27-2007, 05:40 AM

tan sao 'elbow' spreads off the line , while the wrist stays on the line ...tan sao nothing to do with the hand .
Jum sao, elbow on the line as it hits , wrist on the line

these 2 are the bread and butter of the freefight

LoneTiger108

12-19-2007, 09:34 AM

I tend to like the term put out long ago by the famous Ip Man. It was a two-lined piece of poetry that every student had, in one way or another, on show in their school...

Please forgive the loose romanization of my rusty Cantonese.

"Wing Doh Mui Faa Tsong Fut Miu"

"Chun ... "

A prize for the first person who completes the saying!

(CLUE: needs another 6 words)

LoneTiger108

12-21-2007, 04:06 AM

Hmmm. I didn't think this would be too hard for the many long-term guys that use this forum!

So, heres a link to Sifu Lee's school in NYC that displays the two lines on their homepage (bottom right)

http://www.wingchunnyc.com/

Anyone know what I'm chatting about here??

CFT

12-21-2007, 09:24 AM

Hi Spencer,

That picture is a bit small but I think the second line reads:

"Chun sang tou lei ngai lum heung"

I don't really understand the couplet though.

The first line is easier to understand, at least on a surface level: plum blossom dummy methods are subtle

2nd line I feel doesn't match that well to the characters in the first line.

Obviously:

Wing - Chun
Mui Faa (plum blossom) - Tou Lei (plum) [flower --> fruit, the results of hard training?]

Miu - Heung (Subtle fragrance?)
Ngai Lum heung? Skills forest (repertoire?) fragrance? What does this mean????

I would use the character 興 rather than 香 but who am I to judge?
興 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%bf%b3
香 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%ad%bb

So a half-baked attempt at decrypting!

Vajramusti

12-21-2007, 02:10 PM

It was a two-lined piece of poetry that every student had, in one way or another, on show in their school...

Please forgive the loose romanization of my rusty Cantonese.

"Wing Doh Mui Faa Tsong Fut Miu"

"Chun ... "

================================================== =
((How did you arrive at that conclusion that every student of Ip man had that statement as a leading one in their school.?

There are many wing chun sayings.

If there was only one poem to pick by everyone that wouldnt be it IMO.

My favorite saying? I have a book full of them .

The poem with Ip man's picture that hangs in many places speaks of wing chun shining in all of China.
joy))

LoneTiger108

12-28-2007, 05:40 AM

The poem with Ip man's picture that hangs in many places speaks of wing chun shining in all of China.
joy))

Have you a picture of this Joy? May be the piece written for him by WSL.

I'm sorry if I sounded like EVERYONE should have this piece, but as far as I'm aware that's exactly how it was in Hong Kong. It's not a common Kuen Kuit or 'Saying' it's a precise instruction for the Sifu of a school.

CFT - that's a good translation although in my CantonEnglish it sounds like:

"Wing Doh Mui Faa Tsong Fut Miu"
Perpetual verse arrives when Plum Blossom Fundamental Methods are born.

"Chun Lo Toe Lae Yuen Lum Heung "
Springtime holds the fruits fragrance and repertoires within.

I was of the understanding that this little piece meant that whoever held it could teach students, but must not give out the subtleties of the art. In other words, a bearer of this piece could teach but could not teach a teacher or create a Sifu.

This was Ip Mans initial goal for his earlier students IMO. Create western students, not Sifus. By the time westerners started teaching, Ip Man was no longer alive.

Variations of this type of literature were then adopted.

LoneTiger108

12-28-2007, 06:44 AM

This is one example of later poetry that was 'possibly' passed to western students who began teaching on behalf of the Ip Family.

http://www.wingchun.co.uk/hkphotos/chisao%201990.jpg

Can anyone translate this piece? May be similar to the one you talk of Joy, I think...

CFT

01-02-2008, 04:41 AM

LoneTiger108

01-02-2008, 09:47 AM

... here's Daves post:

David Peterson
Follower of the WSL Way Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Hi All,

Loosely translated, the couplet reads (R to L), "Pass on the art of Wing Chun undiluted, in order to create a mighty China." As explained to me by my late Sifu, the implication of the couplet is that we should always strive to pass on the complete art, not just our own interpretation, derivation or favourite techniques, so that each successive generation can draw the maximum benefit from what Wing Chun has to offer. In other words, while we may not use every word in the dictionary ourselves, that doesn't mean that we should remove words from it which another person may find of use. This supports the notion that my Sifu always put forward, that Wing Chun is a CONCEPT-based system, not a technique-based one, and as such, passing on the entire spectrum of knowledge contained within it, whether personally utilised by us as teachers or not, is the only way to see the system flourish and develop from generation to generation. By the way, next to the three characters above the portrait of Yip Man (which read "Wing Chun Training Hall" - Wing Chun Tong), is the signature of my Sifu, Wong Shun Leung, who did all the calligraphy used in this particular poster. Cheers!
DMP

-------------------------------------------

This post confirms what I originally thought, that WSL was responsible for this piece of literature. Still, a full translation would be a good way to start the New Year.

I personally would like to add that this 'couplet' says absolutely NOTHING like 'in order to create a mighty China'. The last three characters on the left are actually an 'oldskool' warrior expression - Jun Hong Forng (Chen Han Feng?) This literally translates to 'awaken the Heroes Wind'. A common interpretation was that it meant to 'spread with heroic deeds'. This was not meant to just relate to China in this context, WSL and Ip Man were referring to the World.

In hindsight of Daves interpretation, and Ip Mans insistence on not diluting the art or only teaching set technical or personal information instead of theory, I think we're at a crossroads with regards to how we all move forward. Mainland, Kulo and Hong Kong methods!

What does everyone think?

CFT

01-02-2008, 09:56 AM

This post confirms what I originally thought, that WSL was responsible for this piece of literature. Still, a full translation would be a good way to start the New Year.

I personally would like to add that this 'couplet' says absolutely NOTHING like 'in order to create a mighty China'. The last three characters on the left are actually an 'oldskool' warrior expression - Jun Hong Forng (Chen Han Feng?) This literally translates to 'awaken the Heroes Wind'. A common interpretation was that it meant to 'spread with heroic deeds'. This was not meant to just relate to China in this context, WSL and Ip Man were referring to the World.

In hindsight of Daves interpretation, and Ip Mans insistence on not diluting the art or only teaching set technical or personal information instead of theory, I think we're at a crossroads with regards to how we all move forward. Mainland, Kulo and Hong Kong methods!

What does everyone think?Spencer,

The first 2 characters of that line: "Wah ha" is an old term for China. So to me, the couplet alludes to using the correct transmission of Wing Chun kung fu to aid the Chinese in performing heroic deeds to shake the world. Kind of a bit high falutin' but should be viewed from the post WWII (and even before then) perspective.

China as the "sick man of Asia" and all that!

LoneTiger108

01-02-2008, 01:20 PM

CFT,

Superb translation! I couldn't better that one myself.

Seeing as we're on a translation tip here, maybe you can help me understand more of a two piece scroll my Sifu received back in the day. It was actually written by Ip Chun, after consultation with Lee Shing.

Here's the pic: http://www.junmo.co.uk/images/stories/Lee%20Shing/Scroll_Joe_Lee-Shing%20GIF.gif

I have an idea of what it means, but it would be good to hear other opinions.

CFT

01-02-2008, 06:17 PM

Seeing as we're on a translation tip here, maybe you can help me understand more of a two piece scroll my Sifu received back in the day. It was actually written by Ip Chun, after consultation with Lee Shing.

Here's the pic: http://www.junmo.co.uk/images/stories/Lee%20Shing/Scroll_Joe_Lee-Shing%20GIF.gif

I have an idea of what it means, but it would be good to hear other opinions.Arggh! No good mate. That calligraphy is too stylised for me to read. I can see that the starting characters of the couplet are "Jun Mo" which is your sifu's school name.

So right hand scroll is: "Jun something something hung fung sing yeung yu tsou" (something along the lines of: heroic deeds gaining universal recognition?)

Left hand one: "Mo something dei can't decipher the rest"

If you know what the characters are I can give it a shot.

-----

Best Wishes,
Chee.

LoneTiger108

01-03-2008, 04:47 AM

So right hand scroll is: "Jun something something hung fung sing yeung yu tsou" (something along the lines of: heroic deeds gaining universal recognition?)

Thanks Chee, and I totally relate to what you say here! Calligraphy comes in all shapes and sizes which is what makes this piece quite difficult to read.

You're spot on though with the first characters of each line being Jun Mo, and the missing 'somethings' are 'Wing Chun' I believe! Yep! That's "Jun Wing Chun", which we used to translate as Wing Chun Promotions. Also the 'yu' you mention, is that another dialect or something as I'd call that one 'Sao' (Defense). The interpretation is good though, but more to defend the status of Wing Chun promotions through heroic/good deeds.

I'll have to go over some old notes for the left hand scroll, as this caused some crazy translations when we first went into it!! The line starts 'Mo For...' (Martial Fire!) which represents the spreading of his teaching. All close family students wore red t-shirts to indicate this (Fire Element).

Still, this was how my Sifu taught. With this one 'mission' in mind. It's a lot to live up to but he is still going, albeit with a new generation now since my time. I also believe that this is one of the reasons he gained the attention of the Chinese Embassy here in the UK, as they recognized this piece.

CFT

01-03-2008, 05:52 AM

You're spot on though with the first characters of each line being Jun Mo, and the missing 'somethings' are 'Wing Chun' I believe! Yep! That's "Jun Wing Chun", which we used to translate as Wing Chun Promotions. Also the 'yu' you mention, is that another dialect or something as I'd call that one 'Sao' (Defense). The interpretation is good though, but more to defend the status of Wing Chun promotions through heroic/good deeds.

I'll have to go over some old notes for the left hand scroll, as this caused some crazy translations when we first went into it!! The line starts 'Mo For...' (Martial Fire!) which represents the spreading of his teaching. All close family students wore red t-shirts to indicate this (Fire Element).

Still, this was how my Sifu taught. With this one 'mission' in mind. It's a lot to live up to but he is still going, albeit with a new generation now since my time. I also believe that this is one of the reasons he gained the attention of the Chinese Embassy here in the UK, as they recognized this piece.We're getting off topic I guess, but which thread doesn't? At least we're civil!

So 1st line is: "Jun Wing Chun Hung Fung Sing Yeung Yu Tsou"

"Yu Tsou" (宇宙) means the universe.
宇 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%a6%74
宙 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%a9%7a

The character you have in mind is "sau" - 守 - which does indeed mean defence.
守 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%a6%75

I'm still sticking with my original guess ;)

2nd line, new guess:

"Mo teen dei zing hei and the rest"
武天地正氣 . . . .

武 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%aa%5a
天 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%a4%d1
地 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%a6%61
正 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%a5%bf
氣 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%ae%f0

天地正氣 is a very positive statement about upright behaviour in heaven and earth, and this is done through "mo" - martial practice.

You might like this link about the "Song of Righteousness" (正氣歌).
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4083&view=findpost&p=4715834

-----------
Best Wishes,
Chee.

CFT

01-03-2008, 05:24 PM

Spencer,

A new idea about the last 4 characters of the 2nd line:

"Gwong lyun dau sing"
光聯斗星

光 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%a5%fa
聯 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%c1%70
斗 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%a4%e6
星 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%ac%50

These characters taken together don't come from any standard 4-character saying (sing yu/chengyu) unlike "teen dei zing hei" (天地正氣). But I think they are meant to evoke ideas of unity.

"Gwong" means "bright"
"Lyun" means "connect/join"
"Dau sing" are the stars of the Big Dipper (北斗七星)

-----------
Best Wishes,
Chee.

LoneTiger108

01-04-2008, 05:10 AM

These characters taken together don't come from any standard 4-character saying (sing yu/chengyu) unlike "teen dei zing hei" (天地正氣). But I think they are meant to evoke ideas of unity.

"Gwong" means "bright"
"Lyun" means "connect/join"
"Dau sing" are the stars of the Big Dipper (北斗七星)

-----------
Best Wishes,
Chee.

I think that sounds more like the translations I've got somewhere, especially the 'Dau Sing' (is this a simialr expression to a 'North Star?) and looking at the previous 'Mo Teen Dai Zing Hei', that may also be correct but I will check. Maybe my 'fire' idea was a distraction eh?

Anywayz, it's been a joy to chat to someone who can actually read, and provide decent links for language research. Thank you!

It would be good to hear your opinion on this piece specifically, as I've rarely seen anything like it in other Martial Arts let alone the Wing Chun style. What do you think?

CFT

01-04-2008, 06:04 AM

I think that sounds more like the translations I've got somewhere, especially the 'Dau Sing' (is this a simialr expression to a 'North Star?)
...

It would be good to hear your opinion on this piece specifically, as I've rarely seen anything like it in other Martial Arts let alone the Wing Chun style. What do you think?Yes, "dau sing" can be taken as the North Star (北斗).

I don't think you should read too much into it, in the sense that it is not like kuen kuit. It is a "good luck" piece for your teacher's school opening. It carries sentiments about what your teacher should/did do with his school. It is not at all uncommon to see such couplets at the openings of businesses, shops, schools, etc.