what an EFFIN speech!!!!!! [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

street_fighter

10-20-2007, 06:38 PM

wake the EFF up people......

(to those already awake......we will return to our regularly scheduled program).

funny. thats what i felt like saying to "master clarke". this has been posted before, and if my memory serves me correctly, it didn't go over too well, or maybe thats just how i felt about it. hes defensive for a reason; he doesn't know **** about fighting, i can almost guarantee you.

once again, back to the argument of "if it doesn't look like "kung fu" can it still be considered kung fu?" who really gives a ****? the only thing that matters is how well you fight

lol at "chinese martial arts IS real" chanting.

Satori Science

10-20-2007, 09:58 PM

funny. thats what i felt like saying to "master clarke". this has been posted before, and if my memory serves me correctly, it didn't go over too well, or maybe thats just how i felt about it. hes defensive for a reason; he doesn't know **** about fighting, i can almost guarantee you.

once again, back to the argument of "if it doesn't look like "kung fu" can it still be considered kung fu?" who really gives a ****? the only thing that matters is how well you fight

lol at "chinese martial arts IS real" chanting.

What style of chinese MA do you practice, do you play southern forms?

deeperthantao

10-21-2007, 03:34 PM

"once again, back to the argument of "if it doesn't look like "kung fu" can it still be considered kung fu?" who really gives a ****? the only thing that matters is how well you fight"

Have you ever thought about what makes kung fu unique: the movements that are utilized for each style, the way they move, the strategy, etc.

Speaking from the perspective of a bak hsing practitioner, regardless of our emphasis on "fighting", there is still a flavor of our style that makes it what it is. All too often people enter tournaments repping their school and they revert to brawl tactics, rather than utilizing their style's techniques.

If this is your understanding of chinese martial arts, than why not take up generic punch and kick boxing.

just my 2 cents.

Yao Sing

10-21-2007, 04:24 PM

I see it the same way and since a video of Shane Lacey fighting was recently posted it makes a perfect example. He has a CLF background, teaches CLF yet when he spars he uses Muay Thai and when he competes in forms he does modern Wu Shu.

Why is that? (I have an old tape of a Tat Wong competition where he does this)

k-no

10-21-2007, 04:50 PM

"I see it the same way and since a video of Shane Lacey fighting was recently posted it makes a perfect example. He has a CLF background, teaches CLF yet when he spars he uses Muay Thai and when he competes in forms he does modern Wu Shu. "

Because the way he stood and had his guard up was Muay Thai?

Because the way he threw the round kick was too "un CLF-like" for you?

Was the straight-charp chuis he threw to the guy's grill a little too "Thai like" for you?

Yes, we can teach and keep the tradition alive. When we drilled we had our lead hand out for guard, and when I teach I will continue to pass this down. But in the interest of conserving strength and being able to judge distance, if I didn't do this during a "real" fight or gong sau, does this make me a fake CLF man?

You ask "Why is that?" I ask, why not!?!

I saw the video of Sharif Bey talking about charp chuis and such and just had to smile... is this a staple of Hung Gar? Because I had not heard of it as such. But the fact that folks are using it (I've heard of NY boxers now utilizing the charp during street fights) from all walks of fighting life...well, that's evolution.

There are things I do defensively and offensively in a fight that were either not passed down through my Buck Sing curriculum but complement the style very well...for ME. There are many things my Sifu has passed down as key elements for himself in a fight; many of those things I use, and lots of them are just not practical for me or my body type, and this is after years of training and some street fights.

I'm sorry, but from my mindset in trying to be a complete fighter, I will not sacrifice an opening for my own personal interpretation of the right technique in favor of something that doesn't work as well for me but will at least have a few people saying that I'm "keeping it real".

I am a Buck Sing fighter but the bottom line is, I fight to WIN, not to pacify traditionalists.

k

hskwarrior

10-21-2007, 05:04 PM

There are things I do defensively and offensively in a fight that were either not passed down through my Buck Sing curriculum but complement the style very well...for ME. There are many things my Sifu has passed down as key elements for himself in a fight; many of those things I use, and lots of them are just not practical for me or my body type, and this is after years of training and some street fights.

and that right there is why Lau Bun had a habit of changing or modifying our clf to make it work for individuals.

one thing people need to realize, we all do the same thing.......if you don't you will one day. many styles have sow choys, choy lee fut has knee's and elbows as well as close distance fighting like wing chun. If we try to stay so traditional, we will die, nothing improves......

k-no has the right idea. however, if i see something from another system that i like, i look for it in CLF, because in my opinion, everything is in clf. we just have to look.

but that mentality doesn't strictly have to about clf, ALL martial arts contain the same schit.

Yao Sing

10-21-2007, 05:07 PM

Not quite sure what you're saying but it sounds like MT works better for you so you prefer it over the CLF you learned?

BTW, I didn't pick out any particulars, you did by mentioning the way he stood and had his guard up.

You also mentioned "the straight-charp chuis he threw to the guy's grill" so I have to ask how it is you know what Tat Wong tourney I have on tape? Did he only compete in one?

Also, I see no problem bringing what works to a fight. It's just that the conversation was heading towards why people don't fight the style so using techniques from outside the style are irrelevant.

Are you saying his fighting style is straight up CLF? How about his forms? Were they Wushu-ized or non-CLF (looked like non-CLF to me. I'll look again but I think it was a compulsary set in a traditional competition but I could be wrong).

Also, don't flip out and get defensive, it's just a simple observation and question from someone not ranked in CLF.

hskwarrior

10-21-2007, 05:10 PM

yao sing, is that the one where shane comes running from his corner and starts round housing that guy?

Yao Sing

10-21-2007, 05:15 PM

I'll have to pull it out and watch it again since it's been a lot of years so the memory is fuzzy. I do recall wondering why the forms and fighting didn't look like CLF to me.

Again, personal observation.

I know Tomazaki knocked his opponent out which was the highlight (for me) of the competition. Really sweet.

k-no

10-21-2007, 05:52 PM

Yao Sing,

Yeah, that's right, you didn't pick out particulars but you cited "that recent video".

I never said the straight charps were from the tourney. I'm talking about said video.

I'm not singling you out although it certainly turned out that way when relating to BSCLF. It was the tone of the thread and people "asking why", including yourself. I think this gets really narrow minded and limits people. I've trained at MMA gyms where people utilize techniques from Greco Roman Wrestling in BJJ class and no one bats an eye and all learned for the better because of it, without everyone feeling they *******ized their style. If they did, MMA would still be in the infant stages it was when a 180 lb Brazilian dude repeatedly tooled 300 lb fighters.

Obviously, I am not saying his style is pure BSCLF. At the same time, I find a drill and interpret in my way, and it remains CLF...but not to some. You will see this a lot in my Sifu's drills and no one can argue he is so much a die-hard CLF patriot that we oftentimes had long debates over my cross-training. He modified his CLF to make it that much more devastating and effective for larger and stronger people much like the Gracies did with Judo in the early 1900s. So there are probably a lot more elements of Shane's CLF that doesn't look like CLF to you, but was modified by himself through the lens of his experience than you think.

Frank

Hey brother, we had this discussion many times, its been fun. However, I feel sometimes that can be a discussion in futility... for example, look as much as I can and I cannot find any sort of bobbing and weaving in CLF. Back in the days in China, no one really did this sort of defensive manuever but boxers and streetfighters do this well, and as complete fighters we need to adjust. Even my Sifu, the die hard BSCLF man added compensatory tactics in our drills for this, and I've had to plan for the same as well as UTILIZE this tactic when needed in a drawn out fight.

k

street_fighter

10-21-2007, 05:55 PM

its just so close minded. look at all the variation in mma for example. not all of them fight the same way, almost every one has there own "style". they don't limit themselves to what it "should look like". Its whatever works, and that is different for everybody, but there are certain basics that apply (like basics themselves).

i think its important to note that the percieved "kickboxing" is the best way to fight, in the KICKBOXING rule set. Its the best way to USE YOUR MA in a sparrign context. Thats why it comes out naturally even in those with no experience. Similarly, in the street your not going to start pacing around somebody throwing jabs and skipping; its going to change with rules, environment, and context. I think of that upright, agile footwork, and basic techniques that generally characterize KB as the best way to APPLY my skills, at least in the ring.

If someone has only trained in kung fu, and goes to fight in the ring, but looks like everyone else, it means he doesn't do kf??? bull ****. its WHAT you train in that defines what you DO.

sometimes i wonder how bruce lee ever came from a tcma background...

oh, btw, satori. no, i don't practice southern forms anymore. Right now i'm training at a kickboxing/bjj gym, and dabbling in some xingyi. just dropped out of college actually (i don't know why i'm proud of that); I am getting ready to move to china in april;).

hskwarrior

10-21-2007, 06:27 PM

but wouldn't bobbing and weaving be a personal choice of evasion? who's to say that CLF doesn't have bobbing and weaving? now, if we did it and looked liked boxers ok.........but bobbing and weaving is a personal choice. some take it head on, some are in and out, some bob and weave.

in my opinion, if its not in your system, make it part of it......hell, choy lee fut is known for taking from other systems. we are the original mixed martial arts.

i know you are about evolution k-no, and by offering bobbing and weaving into your training isn't such a wrong thing to do.

Muay Thai is known for their knee's and elbows, but CLF has both of them too. why is it that muay thai is the only ones that can train these weapons? we can and should too.

but k-no, im not arguing with you bra, its okay if we disagree, thats what makes us human.

hskwarrior

10-21-2007, 06:38 PM

forgive me my bra k-no, im just trying to finish my thought.

Tam Sam developed things what weren't taught by chan heung and added into your system. Tam Sam was notorious for learning from all fights, and adding in what he feels was worth it right?

why not stay true to your system, and evolve it. I hate hearing CLF doesn't have this or that. why? cause we don't see it in forms? what were the fighters of old china? streetfighters!!!! and what you said k-no, good street fighters bob and weave.

if everyone was jocking the idea of clf throwing rocks, just because you don't have it, doesn't mean you can't add it in yourself. how hard is it to throw a rock?

anyways, being a good fighter means having skills. regardless of how you win a fight, as long as you win its all good.

k-no

10-21-2007, 06:42 PM

Nah bro, no argument here whatsoever. As a matter of fact, you've demonstrated some (bobbing and weaving) in your drills haven't you? I was always impressed by that... I know you're die-hard Hung Sing but you obviously are not bound by CLE "dogma".

We certainly should use our CLF elbows and knees. The fact that they drill this to death during Thai training and the **** works is the reason why I train with the guys, they offer me the power in the technique I'm not used to training with other "traditionalists". But you're certainly right, they ARE there and I take back the little variations with me so it's not just the stuff from the forms we learn to defend against.

street_fighter

10-21-2007, 06:43 PM

hskwarrior

10-21-2007, 06:49 PM

i will admit that Muay Thai elbows and knee's training inspired me to do the same with my guys. we don't wear shorts, or look like thai boxers......we adapted their training method to how we do things.

i teach my guys as many knees i can think of.......we train to strike with our elbows......but we approach it in a chinese gung fu way.

and yeah, bobbing and weaving, i've done it in my video's, i belive in it. i just think kung fu-tize it. all martial arts is relative.

can you imagine more kung fu people who train like muay thai? with the intensity, the realism, the effectiveness!!!!! these are sleeping arsenals long overlooked. its time we gung fu people pick up our game and stop giving MMA, or even MT our time and money. just look inside your system with open eyes and you will see all you need to.

k-no

10-21-2007, 06:54 PM

Frank,

I don't see it as being "true or untrue" to my system, actually. I know my movement, and background and cross-training aside, I know MOST of my mechanics and footwork are stemming from Buck Sing.

I see it more as fight "philosophy". For instance, most times I will kickbox for a while in a fight before finding the right "beat" and moving forward with a CLF attack...not so much opening with kickboxing because I find it superior but not using it till I need it, or just timing the usage so I can totally overwhelm my opponent when he's not expecting my range to suddenly change.

Conversely I will decide on a BSCLF attack pattern very quickly when fighting someone much larger or when I've been faced with multiple opponents...it's all about judging my current condition and health, the opposition, etc. I'd rather have the tools and not need it...and I may not have needed it at the time for one or two fights, but from the outcome it seemed like the right idea at the time. :)

hskwarrior

10-21-2007, 06:54 PM

look, if you claim to be a clf fighter, then Im looking for sow choys from hell, upper cuts chop choys, biu jongs, and schit like this. this is the type of stuff that identifies us as CLF people.

we can look like kick boxing, but when we attack we should look like CLF people using our arcenals........

i see jabs, not chop choys, but jabs, hooks, and alot of bs most times.

i remember in front of Lai Hung's people one of my class mates did a sow gerk on this guy in a tournament that flipped him over. it made the crowd go wild because he used something people recognized as a clf move.

i would like to see more classical moves mixed in.......

hskwarrior

10-21-2007, 06:55 PM

hey i completely agree and support what you just said bra.:D

Eddie

10-23-2007, 08:09 AM

I'm not impressed with the speech.

Not sure how different kung fu fighting look from whatever other fighting he was speaking about.

I want to see someone use " USE YOUR EAGLE" in a san shou fight....

hskwarrior

10-23-2007, 08:27 AM

well, phuck you eddie!!!!!!

i'm not impressed with you and your south african ways.......

just kidding.....in a good mood this morning.......anyone got glaucoma medicine?

eddie, what i feel he meant, is if you are clf, lets see, sow choy, biu jong, upper cuts, chop choys, things that will identify you to a specific style.

i admit, if you are a kung fu man, and you are fighting and representing a style, then you SHOULD like something relative to that system.

another example, if you saw a guy using alot of kicks, you are more likely to believe he has tae kwon do in him without really knowing.

if a guy used chain punches in the manner wing chun uses them then you will be labeled as wing chun-ish........

do you see what i mean?

if choy lee fut never used a sow choy, a chop or what ever, how would you know he was clf?

hskwarrior

10-23-2007, 08:34 AM

at the same time,

if you are a fighter, then you know you will have to modify your martial arts to blend into your own personal fighting method. kung fu is the tool, its how we use that tool is what matters.

In my opinion, a fighter who loves choy lee fut is going to look at it and take what he feels will be beneficial and effective according to his own needs. he will understand that much of traditional methods will either have to be thrown out or modified for real life combative usage.

as i've stated in the past, my sifu alwaystold me to pick like 6-7 moves in clf and master those. in his opinion, that was all you were going to need.

or lemme put it like this, you put a kung fu guy vs a muay thai guy......who in your opinion is going to stay true to his system and be recognized as doing so?

so if THEY can do so, then why can't we?

phuck yes, i see kung fu people all the time in competition and couldn't tell what system they were. however, the one thing i love about the Buk Sing lineage, is when they fight, you know they're choy lee fut.....its phuckin obvious!

MasterKiller

10-23-2007, 08:40 AM

I guess it's a good thing my Long Fist already looks like kickboxing, then.

hskwarrior

10-23-2007, 08:40 AM

really? why?:D

whats up my friend?

MasterKiller

10-23-2007, 08:46 AM

really? why?:D

whats up my friend?

Because when I fight it looks like my forms. :D

hskwarrior

10-23-2007, 08:53 AM

Well gahdamm!!!!!:D

yutyeesam

10-23-2007, 08:55 AM

I thought it was interesting how he said Bruce Lee was the last person who was really a Kung-Fu hero or whatever, yet Bruce was denouncing being style specific, and said and tried to get everyone to understand what the truth behind combat is not in specific styles.

Eddie

10-23-2007, 11:54 AM

I do see what youre saying frank, and I agree with you. But, I didnt like the way this guy said what he said. To me it seemed that he is giving the impression that chinese martial arts usually takes a back seat amongs other martial arts (and he compared us with karate and taekwon dodo - how low could he have gone).

Heres a video for you frank. Someone told me this is Frisco style ;)
enjoy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ggN7Ic5cv7w

:eek:

hskwarrior

10-23-2007, 05:05 PM

hey....

isn't "okay2begay" a city in south africa?:D

hskwarrior

10-23-2007, 05:07 PM

Yao Sing

10-23-2007, 06:05 PM

one thing i will give to bruce lee is that he had the vision.

although he didn't realize to accomplish the goals he did, every student must take the same steps he took because you have to crawl before you walk......

lemme know know what newborn baby came sprinting out the you know what!?!?!?

to reach that level of what some may say "enlightenment" you have to experience all you can before you truly see all martial arts as relative.

Wow Frank, never heard anyone say exactly how I see it. I thought I was the only one who saw it that way. JKD, to me, seems to be trying to start education off at the 12th grade.

JKD was the culmination of Bruce Lee's personal journey. There are no shortcuts.

Eddie

10-24-2007, 12:28 AM

one thing i will give to bruce lee is that he had the vision.

although he didn't realize to accomplish the goals he did, every student must take the same steps he took because you have to crawl before you walk......

lemme know know what newborn baby came sprinting out the you know what!?!?!?

to reach that level of what some may say "enlightenment" you have to experience all you can before you truly see all martial arts as relative.

yep. im with both of you guys on this. Well said brothers ;)

hskwarrior

10-24-2007, 06:51 AM

Yao Sing, Eddie,

can i explain....

as most know, im 39 now, and i've been involved in martial arts since the age of 5. but as some people may have heard it like this.....but one day the light bulb went off for me, and things began to move slowly (no i wasn't shmokin!:p) then i saw the relevance between ALL martial arts. at this point i was going along bruce lee's same path to enlightenment, thats when i realized, bruce was right, but he was wrong too.

he didn't want his gung fu to be traditional, or have forms.......but that was HIS gung fu, he reaced that level he wanted everyone else to reach. thats impossible without walking that long hard road.

at the same time, imagine if the lightbulb went off before you were ready? when the light turns on nothing will be in the room for you to see. but let the martial artist walk that path, and if he's wise enough, he'll take the time to smell the roses, or he'll miss that wallet in the bushes filled with 3 g's!!!!!!

see what i mean?

TenTigers

10-24-2007, 06:55 AM

Bruce should have simply called his "art", Mo-Wai. To act spontaneously without thought, or reserve. This is the ideal ALL MArtial Arts aims towards. To call it JKD is simply describing an technique/concept-intercepting the opponent's intent, which is simply one of the components of good MA. That's like calling it, "Broken Rhythm."
The proble with JKD, is it develops the attitude of being a dabbler. A little of this, a bit of that, rather than total imersion, and true understanding of the art. Very few have taken it to this extent. Dan Inosanto, Burton Richardson, come to mind, but too many of the JKD students, the ones who say,"I take JKD," come across as nothing but spoiled children. You know the types, You get them in your school every once in awhile. The ones who want you to teach them something new, when they don't even have a grasp on what you just gave them,
but say,"I know it."

TenTigers

10-24-2007, 07:00 AM

sure Bruce Lee went beyond forms-but he worked through them to get there. Again, we all are striving to reach that point where we drop the form and act spontaneously. The form is simply a tool to get us there. Can it be done without forms? Sure.
But-if you want to write down your entire system's techniques, training principles, methods in a series of notebooks, and they then get lost,stolen, burned, whatever, then your entire life's work is gone. Forms allow these arts to be passed down intact, from one generation to another. From the forms, you can write volumes.
What don't these people get?

sanjuro_ronin

10-24-2007, 07:04 AM

hskwarrior

10-24-2007, 07:11 AM

very true tt,

see, the one thing i make my guys do (which i learned from rene latosa) is phuck what you throw, just throw it. as a martial artist i should just react right?

too many martial artists today are stuck with that "hit me right here, dead center of my nose, no higher, no lower, just right here. and oh yeah, only use your left hand!"

all i got to say to that is WTF?:eek:

hskwarrior

10-24-2007, 07:19 AM

true, true, i am starting to understand now, that when you are into sport martial arts, most of the traditional aspects get thrown out the door. it takes time to perfect a form, and if the competition is three months away, you won't be able to master that form in the amount of time.

so what do you do, take from the form and drill, right?

however, not everyone wants to be in SPORT martial arts. some just want to know how to defend themselves while walking down the street.

but in the end, its better. we now have sport martial arts, and traditional.....maybe one day both can go hand in hand?

Eddie

10-24-2007, 11:51 AM

Tentigers,
I met Burton Richardson before, and had a few minutes to chat to him abotu MA. Also observed his skill in a class once. Im impressed, and as hskwarrior and yao sing says, he also has a traditional back ground. its evedent from his moves and his approach. I still think that what they call JKD these days, are probably more MMA than anything else.

However, I also believe that martial arts are all moving towards the MMA model in the future. It will be more about practicing drills than practicing forms, and a lot of things with get lost in the process. Perhaps thats a good thing, as it will then return back to its roots.

I also think that soon MMA trainers will also start going back to SOME 'traditional' training methods (perhaps 'traditional' conditioning sets or somehting). In the end, its all about creating a better over all fighter.

Im also wondering if its not a case really of 'traditional' returning back to real traditional training. The fact that there are so many different styles that are mixed together (CHOY LAY FUT / TaiShingPekGwa etc etc), shows you that the masters of old pretty much did the same thing as they do now.

dai mui fa

10-26-2007, 04:35 AM

I didn't see push hand from the tai chi master nor the white crane fly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1KQefb7UnU

Fighting is about the application of what has been learnt from the style. The techniques should reveal themself naturally. It's the speed, accuracy, agility and power developed thru training that matters in a fight, not whether your techiques look similar to your own style/lineage.

If we did exactly what Master Clarke said to the extreme, we would be fighting like in the kung fu movies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL1jdVc2ea4

That's my 2 cent.