Kaifeng Jew-Fu

[ghostexorcist]

I am currently writing an historical fiction novel set in 11th and 12th century Jerusalem and China. I don't want to go into great detail (for personal reasons), but the story revolves around one of the Jews of the Kaifeng Jewish community that joins the army of Song Dynasty General Yue Fei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Fei).

Most people are surprised to learn that Jews actually lived in ancient China. Jews have traded in China since the Tang Dynasty (618-907 CE), but many scholars believe a community was first founded in Kaifeng City, Henan province during the early part of the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1127). However, one of the three stelae (rock edicts) created during the Ming and Qing Dynasties claim they had lived in China since the Han Dynasty (206 BCE – 220 CE). You can read more about the Jews of China here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_China). Please keep in mind, the linked articles are not very good, but they serve their purpose of detailing these Jews.

One scholarly source claims that "Israelites" served in the armies under General Yue Fei. You can read a short section on Chinese Jew military service here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_military_history#Jews_of_China). I wrote the entry based on info from several books on the subject. Just to let you guys know, I actually came up with the idea of the Jew fighting in Yue's army well before I found out about its true historical origins. Needless to say, I was very happy!

The only mixed inhabitants of China that even come close to the Jews are the Hui-muslims. During the Song, the two groups were often confused for each other. Now the Hui are known for the martial prowess. They have sword styles like the "prophet's sword" and boxing arts like the "Eight elbow style". Since the Hui developed their own arts, I'm sure the Jews would have developed some of their own. But the point of this thread is not to actually prove the existence of such arts. The main character does learn some martial arts during his lifetime, but it is only a small portion of the actual story. I am just interested in what you guys think this "Jew-fu" (no offense to anyone) might look like.

I have always read tales about powerful Buddhist, Taoist, and Muslim martial arts masters. I think it's time we brought another of China's minorities into the spotlight! This genre is completely new territory.

I have one idea for a style based upon animals mentioned in Jewish passages. The sage Yehudah ben Teima made two statements which are cited in the "Ethics of the Fathers."


Be as bold as a leopard, light as an eagle, swift as a deer, and strong as a lion, to do the will of our Heavenly Father. (5:23)

When I first read this, I thought that statement could also apply to the martial arts. There is no need to decipher any kind of secret code. The style would be based upon the movements of the leopard, eagle, deer, and lion and the statement itself would apply to the overall fighting philosophy of the art.

I am not Jewish, so I would like if others more knowledgeable on Jewish passages could comment with their own ideas. And please refrain from racial slurs.

[cjurakpt]

stop Phoenix from rising

[ghostexorcist]

stop Phoenix from rising

Who gives a **** about this Phoenix that everyone seems to hate! Please don't bring your little war into this thread.

[WanderingMonk]

Who gives a **** about this Phoenix that everyone seems to hate! Please don't bring your little war into this thread.

chill

cjurakpt was actually just bumping your thread up to the 1st page as we had an interloper who decided to start a gazillion threads which push all other discussion into the deep dark recess of this forum, the second or third page.

[TenTigers]

I had a book years ago called Manderins and Jews,or something like that, which was all about the Jewish community in Kaifeng.
Also in Shanghai. Shanghai was where the "underground railroad" smuggled jews out of Russia. My ex's Mom's family hid many jewish people during those times.

[SPJ]

I have relatives actually knew and traded with Jewish district in Shanghai in the 30's.

Kaifeng was the capital city of Song dynasty.

there were many legends for this period.

also many novels written. I like the judge Bao Qing Tian with a dark face and a crescent moon birthmark on forehead. He was Kaifeng Fu Yin or chief public security officer/police commissioner appointed by the emperor.

--

yes, there are legends of lion division, leopard division, etc. but they may not be real.

--

:D

[Mano Mano]

I am currently writing an historical fiction novel set in 11th and 12th century Jerusalem and China.
You can’t because I am

[ghostexorcist]

You can’t because I am

Good for you.

[Mano Mano]

I wish you luck, as I’ve discovered the myriad paths you go down during your research is unbelievable even just for one character. I’m now starting to understand why some writers set their stories in fantasy worlds.

[bawang]

This reminded me of that "abir warrior arts", what's the deal with that? Guy does kung fu and calls it ancient holy israeli war dance.

[ghostexorcist]

This reminded me of that "abir warrior arts", what's the deal with that? Guy does kung fu and calls it ancient holy israeli war dance.

Actually it was Korean Kuk Sool Won.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7oqYpSsJ0Q

most popular TV drama about Bao Qing Tian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8CHSIuW2N8&NR=1

movie version.

:D

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4QApzExgSo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9EwB-afKYM

river all red. or man jiang hong.

the most known episode about Yue Fei.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIQ2JxF_Kis

a poem by yue fei.

:)

[David Jamieson]

what was (is) the ethnicity of jews in Kaifeng? Are they all russian or are some Chinese as well?

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il8c5xPDZlQ

a very good song about the life story of yue fei.

:)

[SPJ]

what was (is) the ethnicity of jews in Kaifeng? Are they all russian or are some Chinese as well?

yes. there were chinese jews and russian jews living in China since--

oops my tongue is tied up.

yes there were and still are jewish communities living in China.

got it.

:D;)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArfdX_92Bek
artifacts from southern song uncovered in the 1990's.

evidence that they were exporting procelain and actively traded with japan, korea, south east asia to support the economic.

the bottle like greenish procelain from dragon well or long quan qing chi was the most popular item domestic and forgein.

the bottle procelain was found in arabia, africa etc etc.

meaning they traded with middle east and africa, too.

:)

[Shaolinlueb]

http://www.abirwarriorarts.com/pics/sofer%202.jpg

this guy miught be able to help you.

[ghostexorcist]

what was (is) the ethnicity of jews in Kaifeng? Are they all russian or are some Chinese as well?

According to a book about Kaifeng Jew legends, they were originally from Turkey and fled to China to evade the Crusaders. However, China would have been way to far. They could have just traveled a little further east to escape their grasp. Most scholars believe they left Persia to arrive in Song Dynasty China. But since their Stone monument mentions they entered China in the Han Dynasty after living in India, one scholar believes they went east after the Babylonian exile to live in India. Then they moved to China later. They would have taken foreign wives and sired what the Chinese called "half-barbarian" children. So they would have been a mix of Persian, Indian, and Chinese.

[ghostexorcist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIQ2JxF_Kis

a poem by yue fei.:)

It has been proven that Yue Fei did not write this. It was written during the Ming Dynasty and attributed to Yue.

[David Jamieson]

http://www.abirwarriorarts.com/pics/sofer%202.jpg

this guy miught be able to help you.

If anything, that guy ain't helping at all.

[ghostexorcist]

I received Bishop William Charles White's "Chinese Jews" (1966) in the mail yesterday. It was the first "major" study of the community and it's people. My copy is a whopping 643 page reprint of the original 3 volume version from 1942. It must weigh a good two pounds! It has three sections: (1) History (2) Inscriptional (translations of the 3 Ming and Qing Dynasty stone monuments left by the Jews) (3) Genealogical and has people pictures of various Chinese Jews and artifacts throughout. I highly suggest anyone interested in the subject buy it. It cost me $75, which is SUPER cheap compared to the usually asking price! I have seen it anywhere from $150 - $400!

I will read through this for any further ideas on possible boxing styles.

Someone on the Chinese History Forum suggested the following:


For hand to hand combats, you can use the Greek hand to hand combat style (I think it started with P) as the base and mix in with Hindu's yoga. I don't think Chinese Taiji Chuan was invented at that time, and I can't think of any Chinese hand to hand combat style at that time.

For the weapons, you can use the shephards' weapons for base, such as: staff (or rod) and sling (like king David). Added to it, the middle eastern style of curved swords or Roman style of short swords. Or you can use the type of gladiator weapons seen in Rome because they might have some Roman influences in the past. You can also arrange some of them to learn the traditional Chinese sword fight style (I read that the traditional sword fight style in ancient time was mostly lost during the chaos after Tang dynasty, and totally lost after the Song dynasty. Some part of it got to Japan with the Chinese refugees.)

I like their enthusiasm, but I am looking for distinctly Chinese-Jewish arts. I don't see how Pankration (the word they were reaching for) or even Roman sword fighting would have anything to do with Chinese arts. The "Staff" they are referring two was previously suggested by another person:


Like that famous psalm...136 I think or maybe its another one, where it starts with the Lord is my shepherd...
the part where it saids "your rod and staff they comfort me" has a really deep meaning to it, and it's quite long so here is part of an article to describe it.

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/growth/Th...My_Shepherd.asp
http://www.aish.com/torahportion/betweenTh...ve_and_Pain.asp

Furthermore, King David writes in Psalms, "Your staff and Your rod have comforted me" (Psalms 23:4). It seems strange that he would use this imagery to depict comfort, since staffs and rods are instruments of pain. If King David wanted to use soothing symbolism, why didn't he write something like, "Pillows and cushions have comforted me"?

The Chafetz Chaim cites the Talmud (Brachot 5a), in which Rava explains that God smites His desired ones with pains and difficulties, as the verse says, "The one whom God desires is smitten with illness" (Isaiah 53:10). We also find a support to this idea in the verses, "God chastises the one He loves, like a parent who desires the child" (Proverbs 3:12) and "Fortunate is the one whom God afflicts with pains and suffering" (Psalms 94:10).

What's a shepherd without his rod? His staff is there to protect the sheep, not to attack them. When our lives are harsh and force us into confronting realities that we would rather not face, we sometimes confuse the staff with the shepherd. The one fact that must never be forgotten is that we are beloved.

This world is not a place of ease; it is a place of challenge. Our humanity is not challenged by comfort. The "rod of the shepherd" takes us to situations that give us the ability to discover what we are really made of. This is not only true in life-threatening situations, but even in the difficulties that are closer to a pebble in your shoe than like a sword at your throat.

I really like the bolded part because there are tales of Chinese spear masters that retired and used staves because of its lesser killing ability. The staff was also a weapon used by prison and caravan guards. I think a staff style known as the "rod of the shepherd" would be kind of neat.

[SPJ]

yoga is a high level of meditation and also stretching and strengthening ligaments, tendons--

it is like Yi Jing Jing introduced by da mo into shaolin.

Ba Ji has yi jing jing incorporated. meaning yoga is sort of integral part of many styles of CMA and shaolin.

--

on the other hand, chen tai chi is modelled after general qi ji guang's 34 postures.

and plus daoist tu na breathing methods.

--

just some rambling thoughts.

:D

[ghostexorcist]

yoga is a high level of meditation and also stretching and strengthening ligaments, tendons--

it is like Yi Jing Jing introduced by da mo into shaolin.

Ba Ji has yi jing jing incorporated. meaning yoga is sort of integral part of many styles of CMA and shaolin.

--

on the other hand, chen tai chi is modelled after general qi ji guang's 34 postures.

and plus daoist tu na breathing methods.

--

just some rambling thoughts.

:D

There is a type of Jewish Yoga with body postures based upon the shapes of the aleph-bet letters, but it wasn't created until the 1950's. It was created by a female mystic (if I remember correctly).