Choy Lee Fut Role Call

[hskwarrior]

okay, im trying to put a list together of the current leading teachers of clf around the world.

for example, we know we have Chan Yong Fa, Fu Hang Ng, and Doc Fai Wong as Major Chan Family teachers.......now whom am i missing in this lineage?


In hung sing, we got, Chui kwong Yuen, my sifu, Fut San Now, Chia Yan Soon in singapore.....paul roberts in japan, now whom am i missing.....

and help me fill in the buk sing blanks as well.

i appreciate any help people can give.

i'm trying to do a good thing here....so CLF people whats up?

[Olaf]

There's a booklet of the 2004 gathering of the "Choy Lee Fut Chui Cheung Kung Fu Students Association" that has a lot of teachers and clubs under that lineage in there.

[Wong Ying Home]

SiFu William Wan Tan Wai Buk sing in Hong Kong - he's very good

[hskwarrior]

dam, i thought more people would chime in..

but i have that one from chui cheung and a few more.....

i'm trying to put together a clip to honor todays leading CLF masters.......

[Jeong]

I'd say that you have to include TMW out in San Fran by any measure of 'leading teacher'. Sam Ng to me also seems to be a 'leading teacher', though his school isn't as large as TMW's.

[mokkori]

If its Hung Sing that your talking about TMW (Wong Tat Mau) and Sam Ng are not Hung Sing, with all due respect to them.


Some Hung Sing masters Ive met with my sifu are:

Simon Li Cheung Ming in New York, whos a disciple of Jeh Wing Bun, the god-son of Chui Cheung.
http://www.nyhsk.org/NYHSK.home.htm

Lui Tak Wing in Hong Kong, the son of the late Lui Lit, a senior disciple of Chui Cheung.

Jeung Wai in Hong Kong of the former Thailand HSK, though hes not teaching due to an illness.

Alot more but most are old generations and not teaching nor passing their art on.

[hskwarrior]

now thats what im asking.....

mr mokkori......are you proud to be hung?:D

[Jeong]

If its Hung Sing that your talking about TMW (Wong Tat Mau) and Sam Ng are not Hung Sing, with all due respect to them.

Yeah, I didn't put down any specific branch because I thought that might be controversial. All I'm saying is that if you're compiling a list of current leading CLF teachers, these guys should be on there.

I think I remember hearing that TMW (and really from what I hear most of LKH) is really sort of a combination of Chan and Hung Sing, right? Maybe he would fit under a miscellaneous/hybrid section.

I didn't realize that the Ng fam wasn't pure Hung Sing. Is it mixed with another family of CLF or what?

[hskwarrior]

NG family IS hung sing, just of the Koon Pak hung sing or strong victory......

[mokkori]

I think I remember hearing that TMW (and really from what I hear most of LKH) is really sort of a combination of Chan and Hung Sing, right? Maybe he would fit under a miscellaneous/hybrid section.


I think it was Poon Dik's or Poon Sing's decision to attach the "hung sing" name to his style, and in the past he and his people did so much positive promotion that it was left alone. Feelings are definately different now days, but the damage is done and I doubt anyone would be willing to change the name of the style that was attached so many generations before them... though imho it would be a good idea.

There is no Hung Sing in the LKH branch, and it is not a hybrid style. They simply took the signature opening of the Hung Sing branch and attached it on their Chan Family CLF forms, but they dont have any Hung Sing forms or material other than that.


HSKWarrior: Yes, Im proud to be Hung :cool:

[rogerclf1]

My sifu is Sam Ng and we are definitely Hung Sing.

[hskwarrior]

roger, which hung sing are you?

[CLFNole]

Mokkori:

That is interesting as I have never heard that before. I always felt we were mainly hung sing (Chan Koon Pak's) and while I think we don't have much hung sing (jeong yim) in our lineage (LKH) I do believe there is some influence (such as extensive use of chop choy's and fu pow kuen, which has almost a buk sing feel to it). Also only a few forms have the "hung sing" L-pattern hoi jong, whereas most have the straight ahead Chan Family style hoi jong albeit slightly different.

One of Poon Dik's sifu's was Leung Kwai and he studied with both Chan Koon Pak and Jeong Yim, so the influence is there. Most of our sets are definately from the Chan Family side but some of our sets are quite different from their's maybe just a result of time and passing generations.

It's funny years ago I was having dinner with Poon Sing and I asked him about his father and he said that his fathers kung fu came from Chan Koon Pak. Years later Poon Sing's picture was going in the Fut San Kwoon and people were talking Jeong Yim's hung sing, which I never bought into becuase our stuff is very different.

Peace.

[hskwarrior]

CLFNOLE

that kinda makes sense when you say you are perhaps the Koon Pak line of hung sing.........at one point Koon Pak may have used jeong yim's hung sing , then changed over to the one used by his lineage today?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my area:

http://www.hongluck.org/choi-lee-fut-styles.html

[mokkori]

rogerclf1:

Look at your lineage, Sam Ng is from Chan Koon Pak's line, which is hung sing of the Chan Family, no relation to Jeung Yim's Hung Sing is what Im saying.

clfnole:

I think that LKH's CLF has its own unique flavor of its own, but how clf is played varies from teacher to teacher and has nothing to do with the lineage anyway.
Im just talking bout material, Hung Sing from Jeung Yim has 8 original forms and Ive never seen any of them in LKH Style curriculum, just the opening. Fu Pau Keun isnt a Hung Sing form, its from Chan Family CLF, cool form though.

Ive seen Poon Sings picture in Futshan, like I said the decision were made in the past and since the 2 people who made that decision are still living it remains as is.


Im Hung and Im Proud:cool:

[CLFNole]

Funny I have never heard Fu Pow Kuen mentioned as one of the Chan Family sets. I have tried to research my line as much as possible and most things came back to Chan Koon Pak. Some of my sihings in Hong Kong and current sifu have come to the same conclusion. It is a shame my wife and mother-in-law don't know more.

As far as the 8 original sets, I guess you are referring to tai, ping, tien, etc... I have read that those were supposed to be the original 8 sets from Chan Hueng, which really wouldn't make sense since most are not seen unless names changed. Are they then the 8 forms from Jeong Yim?

Peace.

[mokkori]

Fu Pau Keun was taught by Wong Ha as I remember, and Im pretty sure Ive seen it come up from Chen Yong Fa too. They also have a Lung Fu Keun too I think, those start after the separate 10 animals forms, and then the Ng Ying Keun and last the Sup Ying Keun.

The 8 original sets are:

1. taai ji keun
2. ping ji keun
3. tin ji keun
4. gok ji keun
5. sup ji keun
6. cheung keun
7. fut jeung keun
8. lin wan kau da keun

The only forms that share the same names with Chan Family forms are Ping Keun, Sup Ji Keun, and Fut Jeung Keun. But Ive seen these 3 performed by DFW, LKH, and Yong Fa branches and theres no resemblance at all.

Ive heard too that they were Chan Heungs original 8 too, but none of his lines teach them so guess that info wasnt accurate. Doc Fai Wong downplayed them in his book way back (the orange one) saying they weren't original but created by later generations, but my sifu traced them all back through several lines within Hung Sing to find that they were from the beginning.

Its pretty hard to find them all intact but it exists, at least in my lineage anyway.

[CLFNole]

I know and have seen Lung Fu Kuen a few times, but I have never heard Fu Pow ever mentioned only in Buk Sing in Kong On's line from his Jow Ga beginnings. DFW's list of sets also doesn't mention Fu Pow, it could be an oversight but I think I once asked XJ (Xtrajoseph on this forum), who is close to the Chan line and I don't think he had heard of it either.

Ping Kuen in my branch (LKH) and Chan Yong Fa's are very close if you watch. Yes there are some differences but you can tell its the same form.

As far at Fut Jurng or Fut Gar Jeurng I agree 3 completely different forms.

Are you from the Liu Lit line or Choy Kwong Yuen?

[Eddie]

mokkori. Ill be in Hong Kong on the 18th of November. Can I meet up with you by any chance?

[mokkori]

Hmmm, I might be wrong on that Fu Pau, Ill check into it. The Fu Pau you saw from Gong On is not CLF, its Jow Ga!

You wouldnt find that form on DFW's list no, but he always makes a point of that list being "not a complete list". Recently, Chen Yong Fa has said that the true number of forms from their lineage is over 190! Although 5 years ago they said 148, and 10 years ago they said 136... but thats none of my business.

Im from the Chui Kwong Yeun line. Lui Lit's students are still around but kinda dormant. Lui Lits son is teaching still though, really good kung fu from that lineage. Lui Lit was one of Chui Cheungs top students from way back, shame he passed away just a couple years ago.

[mokkori]

Eddie, PM me

[Olaf]

Nice to see Lui Lit get credit here. We met him and his students a number of times in HK. Great people :)

[hskwarrior]

mr mokkori, what leading sifu's come directly from your sigung?

we got Chan Kam Fai, your sifu, sifu chu from texas......

[CLFNole]

Mokkori:

I noticed your list of 8 sets differs slightly from the 8 forms I have read about:

Tai Gee Kuen
Ping Kuen
Tien Gee Kuen
Kwok Gee Kuen
Cheong Kuen
On Gee Kuen
Man Gee Kuen
Nien Gee Kuen

Just curious as to why yours is different and why no other hung sing schools appear to have these 8 sets outside of maybe ping kuen and cheong kuen?

Also I have never heard of 8 original hung sing sets ever being documented. Frank has always maintained that Jeong Yim learned a long form called in and out baat gwa to which he broke up into sup gee kuen, ping kuen and cheong keun.

Any insight on this?

[Ben Gash]

I'd been led to believe that Fu-Pow Kuen is an alternative name for Ping Jang Kuen. Doc Fai Wong's Sup Ji Kuen is from the Futsan line, and his Fut Jeung is from Chan On Pak's line, so they would be different from Chan Koon Pak lines.

[chasincharpchui]

wen i spoke to joe kwong(lkh) and cheung yung hei(lkh) they always referred to their style of clf as hung sing clf, as in jeung hung sing.

which is wierd now seeing everyone say lkh clf is from chan side

[CLFNole]

Chasin:

There has been a lot of confusion regarding that; however some others such as my sifu Li Siu Hung and Wong Chi Yuen have been to Fut San and King Mui and it has become more and more obvious that we are really more hung sing via Chan Koon Pak. I have seen quite a few different forms from the Chan side and many are the same as ours albeit with some minor differences but you can see its the same set. Our Li Ma and Che Kuen sets are Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Choy from the Chan side, we have a few of the baat kwa sets, and so on. If you look at our stuff then compare it to Fut San there is zero similarities other than the basic seeds of CLF and the L-shaped hoi jong seen in a few of our sets.

Ben:

I don't think Fu Pow is another name for Ping Jahng but Ping Chang is also called Gum Pow Ping Jahng Kuen (Golden Leapord Level Elbow), which is what you might be thinking of.

Peace.

[hskwarrior]

CLFNOLE,

if i said that one im sorry........the sets that chan ngau sing is said to have dissected out of the in and out bagua kuen.......

ping kuen, cheung kuen, and kau da kuen.........are the sets.

[stout]

[QUOTE=CLFNole;809892]Chasin:
If you look at our stuff then compare it to Fut San there is zero similarities other than the basic seeds of CLF and the L-shaped hoi jong seen in a few of our sets.
QUOTE]

If LKH used the Cheung Yim badge, changed the hoi jong and emphaisized Cheung Yim extensions in the forms, wouldn't that indicate he would have been on Cheung Yim's side? I have always been told he was Cheung Yim.

[hskwarrior]

we are all brothers here so i am going to be the first to step up here and say this.....


as you know i AM fut san lineage hung sing. It is easy to identify chan family choy lee fut. their forms have ear marks.

now, fut san hung sing lineages again are very proud. hung sing also has earmarks, so when the LKH lineage promoted the Hung Sing name we started looking deeper into their stuff.......thats when hung sing people began saying hey, they claim hung sing but they have nothing like us.

so when i began asking long long ago, i was told by other hung sing people that lee koon hung was a fierce promoter of hung sing so the hung sing people settled with that. but aside from the pattern alone, everything hand wise they do is chan fam.

but i think there's a rise now for true hung sing people to re-connect. and we are looking for things only we know are hung sing.

i hope that made sense, but in my opinion, lhk lineage is the adopted son of hung sing kwoon

[CLFNole]

Stout:

Only a few of our sets have the L-shaped hoi jong in them most are the straight ahead hoi jongs similar to the Chan Family.

Like I said before the whole Jeong Yim Hung Sing alliance seems to have been more or less related to politics.

With the advent of the internet and things like Youtube if you know our system, which I do, it is easy to see where we came from, politics aside.

Frank:

You are right my bad, but you know the point I was trying to make.

As far as whose adopted son we are, I don't know. We are all just about CLF. If ever have a chance to come to our school and see all the various banners given to Sifu when he 1st opened the school in the US you will see things given to him from the Chan Family side, Jeong Yim side and even Buk Sing side if I am not mistaken. Sifu really didn't care for politics and made friends in all camps.

[hskwarrior]

stout, the only thing from a fut san hung sing point of view, that the Lkh lineage does thats connected to our branch is the pattern of the hoi jong. the moves in the hoi jong are not hung sing at all. no disrespected intended lkh lineage.....

buk sing and hung sing have the same pattern and same moves aside from buk sing's modifications to it. but if you know where the modifications are, then you'd recognize the hoi jong.

although LKH lineage does our "pattern" the moves in their pattern are not from hung sing but resemble chan fam moves more.

[CLFNole]

Truthfully it is a pattern used for our more advanced sets and you are correct it is different for the hung sing and buk sing hoi jong. But here is the thing I have spoken with some people who have told me that the Chan Family also has an L-shaped hoi jong in some sets so who knows maybe that is why ours is different. I don't know nor do I really care, the only thing that really means anything to me is the 3 bows: 1 - choy, 2 - lay & 3 - fut.

[hskwarrior]

CLFNOLE,

im just conveying the thought of other hung sing kwoons about Lee Koon Hung. they knew he wasn't truly hung sing, but his heart was there so they pulled him in with them.

when i was told that, i too was like hell, they may have different material, but their heart is with us.

politics suck........if equality existed in CLF politics wouldn't!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

well, that then goes back to the idea that Jeong Yim returned to king mui and shared what he learned from ching cho.

ALL ORIGINAL HUNG SING SETS have one hoi jong, except for che kuen. the L shape pattern IS HUNG SING.........


you know some sets only do one bow.

[stout]

Yes agree some forms are close to Chan. I supposed I am just quite out of it inrelation to the direction CLF is heading. The man is not around anymore. I guess reorgs happen and politics change, despite what his wishes would have been, whatever they were. So is LKH's lineage going to be disassociated from Fut San Hung Goon?

[hskwarrior]

LKH lineage is LKH lineage.....their big.......

knowing your lineage isn't important unless you are trying to learn about your history. it has nothing to do with whether they have good or bad choy lee fut.

ALL CLF has the same techniques, but things change from school to school. not just branches.

[hskwarrior]

So is LKH's lineage going to be disassociated from Fut San Hung Goon?

but to be perfectly honest, know one can answer that. it depends on the direction the fut san hung sing kwoon is heading.

however, masters of Lee Koon Hung's generation value him greatly.

so thats kinda tough.......

lately the LKH lineage including tat mow wong has been going back to fut san to perform and such. so who knows?

[CLFNole]

We promote and teach our style for the benefit of CLF, nothing more nothing less, that is what sifu was about spreading the CLF knowledge, we leave the politics to others.

Stout: Are you from our lineage? If so directly or through one of sifu's students?

[stout]

I am a student of one of LKH's student. :cool: Though I only trained hard in CLF quite late, after an awaking event in life....maybe it was fate afterall that I was to learn CLF.

[CLFNole]

Left-coast and I am guessing San Fran, correct?

[mokkori]

Mokkori:

I noticed your list of 8 sets differs slightly from the 8 forms I have read about:

Tai Gee Kuen
Ping Kuen
Tien Gee Kuen
Kwok Gee Kuen
Cheong Kuen
On Gee Kuen
Man Gee Kuen
Nien Gee Kuen

Just curious as to why yours is different and why no other hung sing schools appear to have these 8 sets outside of maybe ping kuen and cheong kuen?

Also I have never heard of 8 original hung sing sets ever being documented. Frank has always maintained that Jeong Yim learned a long form called in and out baat gwa to which he broke up into sup gee kuen, ping kuen and cheong keun.

Any insight on this?

Guys, I gots to clear this one up! "taai ping tin gok" was the peaceful heavenly kingdom and the name of the revolution, the additional "cheung on man lin" was just an extension to make the war cry. "faan ching fuk ming" also had a longer verse but its seldom seen. So people are just assuming that "cheung on man lin" must be connected but thats just an ass-umption made recently and was never brought up in the past and has no relevance at all!

Its not just my school that has these forms either, my sifu traced them from Chan Ngau Sing and one other student of Jeung Yim passed them down in his lineage too. It seems like Jeung Yim didnt really break out the forms part of his teachings until his later years, and that was when Chan Ngau Sing was in charge. Ive seen them performed by several lineages before, and way back Jow Ga adopted a couple of them like Gok Ji Keun.

Its just a matter of understanding though, taai ji keun, ping ji keun, tin ji keun, and gok ji keun are the representative sets of the peaceful heavenly kingdom. Also, they represent north, south, east, and west (or the 4 lakes or something like that), and are connected by "sup ji keun" which is the cross having 4 corners leading to the 4 forms. Cheung Keun and Kau Da were early fighting forms and got some kind of meaning that I forget. Fut Jeung is supposed to represent the techniques that GGM taught Jeung Yim!

[CLFNole]

Mokkori:

I am not saying you are wrong but the list I have of the 8 sets came from a Chan Koon Pak Hung Sing sifu's book. It was written in Chinese and translated by my wife. He lists the 8 sets I mentioned as being the early 8 sets of Chan Hueng so who knows.

By the way, how long have you followed Choy Sifu?

[mokkori]

Really? Thats kind of interesting. Weird though since they never showed up on the Chan side, but weve had them from the beginning.

I dont follow Chui, just from his lineage.

[CLFNole]

Yeah I found it interesting as well that is why I brought it up as I have never really come across any schools with names using those sets except for ping kuen, cheong kuen and mahn jee kuen.

I learned a mahn jee kuen set from one of my sihings in HK and I think it comes from your line.

[mokkori]

Nope, Man Ji Keun isnt ours. I think that brought out alot of confusion about those assumed latter 4 forms too, but its a Chan Family form and was never in Hung Sing. Ive confirmed that before with several lineages too.

Theres alot of lineages that never really came into the public so its not surprising that these forms arent so well known. My sifu is friends with a guy from the former HSK of Thailand through a unique student of Jeung Yim that isnt related to Chan Ngau Sing or the others, and he backed things up. Too bad hes ill and cant teach cause his contribution would clear up alot of doubts that are still hanging around. Futshan maintains most of these forms too and their lineage from Jeung Yim is different from mine.

[CLFNole]

Man Gee Kuen must have come from someone else, for some reason I thought he mentioned Choy Kwong Yuen but my cantonese is "mah mah dei" especially when people are talking fast. I know the set isn't from our line as it has some different earmarks.

Never heard Frank mention those sets but then again he isn't always specific about curriculums. Isn't Choy Kwong Yuen quite involved in what is taught at the Fut San school. Not sure if that is the case but it is what I heard.

[mokkori]

Its a curious form alright. I wondered about it before but all sources said it aint ours so I dont know.

Most of the group in Futshan learned (or relearned) from CKY, but there are alot of sifus there representing several different lines so its not all the same material. Personally I think it would be hard to run a school with 10 different teachers in charge, but I guess they have that worked out already.

[hskwarrior]

i've always been pretty selective with what i share publicly.

[CLFNole]

Same here just I never heard you mention anything about the 8 sets Mokorri listed thats all.

[Fu-Pau]

, and way back Jow Ga adopted a couple of them like Gok Ji Keun.


That's an interesting statement...

Jow Ga (Chow Gar) does not go all that "way back".
I know Chow Gar’s Gok Ji Kuen. My understanding is that Chow Lung and his brothers created all the Chow Gar forms and did not "adopt" any. However, as is often the way in southern kung fu, two totally different CLF and Chow Gar forms may well share the same name.

Do you have any footage of CLF's Gok Ji Kuen? I would like to see that to see if there is any resemblance between the two forms.

[Fu-Pau]

Man Gee Kuen must have come from someone else, for some reason I thought he mentioned Choy Kwong Yuen but my cantonese is "mah mah dei" especially when people are talking fast. I know the set isn't from our line as it has some different earmarks.


Nole,

Don't know about the Man Gee Kuen in CLF that you are referring to, but Man Gee Kuen (in Chow Gar) is one of Chow Gar's most famous signature forms.

[mokkori]

Well, Im not an expert on Jow Ga no, I just know that there was alot of history with it and CLF. The Gok Ji Keun in Jow Ga is perhaps just a similar base and not the same form, otherwise what would the meaning of it be? In CLF that form is pretty high level and isnt performed publicly, though Im sure itll find its way out sometime.

I didnt know Jow Ga had a Man Ji Keun, the clf one is on youtube and is pretty interesting. Im not trying to make any statements about Jow Ga, just looking for historical links and thats one of them.

Maybe you could share some of Jow Ga's history and connection to CLF so that I can be more clear and not make ignorant statements.

[CLFNole]

Mokorri:

Most Jow Gar people will tell you that they have no connection to CLF at all except for the Choy Gar aspect. Whether or not this is completely true I don't know but there are a heck of a lot of similarities with both hung gar and CLF when I look at Jow Gar sets, which could be a result that most southern Kwantung styles have similarities.

Never seen the Man Gee Kuen clip on Youtube, do you have the link?

Peace.

[stout]

Left-coast and I am guessing San Fran, correct?

My teacher is not in the US. I don't currenty have a CLF sifu, thats why I read this form. My teacher would have recieved teachings from other CLF greats, just like anyother who seeks. I know our line has some koon pak style, i don't speak for my teacher but he would probably argue that chueng yim taught koon pak. All CLF at the end of the day originated from Chan Hueng & as far as I know and see, Cheung Yim added alot more spice. The teachings I recieved were always in the context of Cheung Yim and buk sing for the chap. Sau is always done with Green Grass monk, lama principles. The direction and body alignments which we executes technique and forms were always all the way, in the context of cheung yim. As far as I know some "weak" techniques has removed, some modified. Although I have only learnt just a over a handfull of CLF forms...so far, if anyone ask me which lineage I came from, I would no doubt say Cheung Yim and thats not becuase of the forms I do but the principles I have recieved.

[CLFNole]

I would agree with the principles part becuase afterall Leung Kwai did study with Jeong Yim, which is why I still contend we are a mixed lineage. Someone said Jeong Yim might not have taught forms which might explain why we might not have their forms.

I have always felt we had some buk sing influence as well and sifu confirmed this (I guess either he or one of the people he learned from had some buk sing experience). Sifu once mentioned that we were somehow connected with Lui Chan, Tam Sam's sifu but didn't really expand as to how.

People can say and believe whatever they want but if you learn enough and dig deep enough you can figure it out for yourself.

Like I said before I contend we are a mixed lineage. One thing that is interesting if you pay attention to sifu's 1st book CLF: Dynamic Art of Fighting, the history section in the front makes no mention for Jeong Yim, for whatever that is worth.

[stout]

another thing I want to add is. When I was learning forms & techniques. I was constantly reminded of body alignment and the way a technique is executed... the subtitle corrections that were made to a technique to make it work, as such is the Fat San Hung Sing way and such would not be. So the lineage you come from has alot more to it then Hoi Jeongs or forms.

[mokkori]

Guys, the principles cant be defined by the lineage, only by the teacher. Ive seen Buk Sing guys who train hardcore on only forms, and Ive seen Chan Family guys who only learn 1 form and train the fighting techniques of it to perfection. You think you can determine which 1 of the 3 main branches by seeing a couple techniques? Bull!

CLF and the way its played is determined by the practitioner only, and not by the branch it came down. Some say that Hung Sing is very extended and Chan is bent arms but haven't we all seen the opposite as well?

How come the Singapore, Malaysia, and Futshan all play the same Hung Sing forms completely differently?

How come the Laceys, Jun Chiu Yue, and Wong Gwai Cheun all do their Buk Sing at different stance heights, different speeds, different extensions, etc.?

How come Chen Yong Fa, Wong Ha, and Wong Doc Fai play differently in forms and functions and applications?

The principles set aside the branches? Bull, that has never shown to be true. Its the practitioners and how they were taught or how they want or how they interpret how things are done. Anybody give any example of something like a principle or way that they thinks is solely found in only 1 of the branches... and Ill bet I can find the same examples in the other 2 done the same way.

[CLFNole]

So who is or was your sifu, I know pretty much all of sifu's students that have or had schools? If you don't want to post it you can PM me and if you don't want to say that is fine too but I am just curious.

When LKH taught here he never spoke of Fut San, Hung Sing or even Chan Family, nor does Li Siu Hung and my other sihings in Hong Kong. Truthfully our line is somewhat unique and different from the others, yeah the forms come from the Chan side but we have influences from all over including the other branches as well as from Shek Kin and even sifu's younger brother Li Chun Hung, who is a buk siu lum sifu.

The LKH style is a hybrid style but forms don't really make a style they are just part of it.

[mokkori]

The LKH line being called Hung Sing but playing Chan forms is a political issue, but the material isnt Hung Sing even if it does use that name... but I think you guys are a unique style of your own and should be proud of it, as you are Im sure.

This is the link to Man Ji Keun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqoI-rKWWuA

[CLFNole]

Mokkori:

I agree with you about the politics. If you have seen a lot of our style, which I am assuming you have, you will see that we use the chop choy in virtually every punch. Not saying that means anything but it seems to be a buk sing influence or it could be nothing more than something Poon Dik preferred, I don't know, just something I have noticed.

I agree with you that we really don't look much like anything from Fut San, but with all the apparent cross training that appeared to go on back in the day I do think other influences exist within our line.

Peace and thanks for the link.

[CLFNole]

Mokkori:

That link you provided is different from the form I learned. The one I learned really has a hung gar type feel and flow to it, much different from how our forms feel and are played.

I believe the performer in that clip is a student of Chiu Mun On, who was my sifu's si dai. I like Chiu Sifu's kung fu, he has a wicked sow choy. I have never seen this set in our lineage and don't know if sifu knew it or not or if it is fact even from our line. We know when sifu passed there were sets that were lost.

Peace.

[mokkori]

It is a cool form, and theres one other vid up somewhere but the same school. Yeah, Chiu Sifus school, hes really good!

You guys have alot of numbers under LKH, have you ever started an association like the other branches? It would be good to unite since you guys have similar style and standards.

[CLFNole]

I think an association thing would be nice, if done correctly but I am sure everyone knows that politics also exist within lineages to some degree. :D

[Eddie]

wow, that was one very fast form. Im wondering if this guy learned nothern mantis before he learned CLF.

I can see some similarities in the form. Check the end part CLFNOle, its almost like siu moi fah

[CLFNole]

It is our line, his sifu was LKHs younger KF brother, Sifu Chiu Mun On. Chiu Sifu is a student of Poon Sing. I have seen a few of their sets and you can tell the forms are the same but they have some differences and likely "earmarks" of their sifu.

When you are HK if you see Kwong Cho Yin (Joe Kwong) and he takes you to Kung Fu Corner (I think its called) I believe you can see his school perform there. He also has a school I think so you could check that out as well.

[jdhowland]

Here's a name for the list: Cheuk Tse a.k.a. Tse, Cheuk Tong--very influential in Hawaii since the late 1960's. Usually thought of as a White Crane and Hop Ga teacher, he learned some CLF from his famous uncle Tse, Wing Bun. In the 1970's he became a follower of Ho, Ngau and taught under Ho's lineage (Chan Kun Pak > Ngan Yiu Ting > Ho Ngau. The lineage may not turn out to be very important in historical terms since I seem to be the only one still teaching (in a very isolated part of the U.S.).

I would also like to mention San Francisco's Ngan Cho Keung from a closely related lineage. Ngan Yiu Ting was his grandfather.

[stout]

So who is or was your sifu, I know pretty much all of sifu's students that have or had schools? If you don't want to post it you can PM me and if you don't want to say that is fine too but I am just curious.

I would rather not name names without consent, as this as always is a touchy subject and I don't wish to blow it out of porportions. If you know all of LKH's students then you will know my teacher. It's quiet simple, yes there are chan in our style but there's futsan too. CLF is composite style, so what is new about. It all started from the Chan family so what is so surprising to have Chan in your CLF? There is a bit of chan in all CLF. Just because you stripped it down and rearranged everything does not make this fact disputable. Characteristics of all CLF comes into play during the fight. Personally I only care for the best technique for me at a particular point in time. But if someone cares to ask me about the history of my kung fu, I would say Chan Heung is the founder and the way I do it is Cheung Yim via my teacher, LKH and many CLF sifus who made it better, all the way back to Chan Heung. Those who have lived, fought & died with CLF, they deserve this mark of respect and in an ideal world it should be independent of fraternities & organisations.

[CLFNole]

Stout:

You are entitled to believe what you want and while I don't agree with you I respect your beliefs.

As far as not being able to name your sifu. If your sifu is legit everyone on the board will know who he is. When people are afraid to give their sifus name sometimes a red flag goes up. I am not saying your sifu is not legit but he would have to be one of the following if in fact he still teaches (there are some others that don't teach anymore):

USA: Li Siu Hung, Wong Tat Mau, Mak Hin Fai, John Wai
Germany: Michael Punchzke
Ireland: Lee Siu Ming
S. Africa: Mornet or Eddie
Hong Kong: Kwong Cho Yin, Wong Chi Yuen, Cheung Yung Hay, Pang Ko Chu
France: Tai Lam

If it is not one in this group I would be suprised. If not where did you learn (country)?

[stout]

Guy, with all due respect, while I wish to learn and make friends here. I don't personally know you or others here. I have said all I wished to say on this topic. Posts can oftent be misread and get heated on the internet. If we ever have the chance to meet in person, we can talk Kung fu over a beer.

[CLFNole]

We all wish to make friends here for the most part as there will always be some trouble makers. We all know each other and have pm'd each other with various stuff. We know who each others sifus are etc... so it's no big deal. Even though we are from different branches and lineages we all get along well but we all have told a little bit about ourselves and our CLF backgrounds.

I really don't have anything to hide I studied with my sifu LKH for 3 years and have studied with sifu Li Siu Hung since 1996 when sifu passed away. I am married to one of LKH's daughters.

I respect your wishes to be unknown, but you do owe me a beer and a story.

Peace.

[nospam]

[QUOTE=mokkori;810127]Guys, the principles cant be defined by the lineage, only by the teacher. Ive seen Buk Sing guys who train hardcore on only forms, and Ive seen Chan Family guys who only learn 1 form and train the fighting techniques of it to perfection. You think you can determine which 1 of the 3 main branches by seeing a couple techniques? Bull!

How come the Singapore, Malaysia, and Futshan all play the same Hung Sing forms completely differently?

How come the Laceys, Jun Chiu Yue, and Wong Gwai Cheun all do their Buk Sing at different stance heights, different speeds, different extensions, etc.?

...the practitioners and how they were taught or how they want or how they interpret how things are done. QUOTE]

I agree, mokkori. The individual practitioner makes their gung fu their own. The core of the style/lineage remains but each practitioner moves and thinks differently, thus the gung fu will be effected differently.

I see other Bak Hsing peeps and they are different. Why? Different lineage. Different influences. Different flavors. Different perspectives. I've said this before, even in the same generation the gung fu can be, will be, should be, as you say, 'played' differently. The core will be or should be there but gung fu is not about cookie cutter practitioners.

nospam
:cool:

[Tai-Lik]

In my area:

http://www.hongluck.org/choi-lee-fut-styles.html

Hello sanjuro, i saw this written on the website you liste above:

"Chan Dau would later make contact with his family, and also furthered his studies under Leung Kwai and Chow Lung"

not to side track this thread, but are you a member of hong luck and do you have other information regarding Chan Dau and Chow(Jow) Lung?

any information would be appreciated.

Tai Lik