wing chun grappling

[saifa5k]

Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks. Lots of Yip Man styles put all their emphasis on chain punching and striking. I am curious as to whose lineage incorporates the throws and joint locks that are in wing chun. I think that sometimes its better to control an opponent than to just beat the hell out of them. Also joint locks and throws can be just as devasting as punches in my opinion. Can someone give me some info on some wing chun schools in the U.S. that teach the chin-na part of the art?
Dave

[sihing]

Sifu Gary Lam teaches chin na in his system, he calls it closing or standing grappling. He's located in Monterey Park, California (close to LA), www.garylamwingchun.com , call him, he's very open to talk to and always willing to answer your questions. I've trained there as well, it's basically a full time school, you live on the grounds and can get anywhere btwn 4 to 7 hrs a day of supervised training. Sifu Lam's level 1 is concerned with crossing hands (this is what Wing Chun is famous for, fast hands, trapping, chain punch, etc..), Sifu's level 2 is all about control and feeling, chin na is a part of the control aspect.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks."

***THEN you should check out WENG CHUN. A close cousin to wing chun but it emphasizes standing armlocks, throws, and sweeps. Punching and kicking are secondary to the standing grappling aspects of this art.

[LoneTiger108]

I have recently discovered that a few relatives of the Lee Shing Family are in the U.S, and anyone from this family will teach relatively useful grappling skills as we generally link this knowledge to our Pole/Stick and weaponry training.

Sifu Alan Lamb is highly recommended:

http://www.alanlambwingchun.com/

[t_niehoff]

Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks. Lots of Yip Man styles put all their emphasis on chain punching and striking. I am curious as to whose lineage incorporates the throws and joint locks that are in wing chun. I think that sometimes its better to control an opponent than to just beat the hell out of them. Also joint locks and throws can be just as devasting as punches in my opinion. Can someone give me some info on some wing chun schools in the U.S. that teach the chin-na part of the art?
Dave

My view is that WCK -- regardless of lineage -- has the tools for controlling an opponent, as that is an integral part of WCK's method (which is essentially to control while striking, with the control and striking working together to enhance each other -- your control increases the effectiveness of your strikes, your strikes aid you in control). The chain punchers you refer to, with their Caveman WCK, are only using a very, very limited aspect of WCK. The difficulty is finding someone who knows -- and they only know if they can do it -- how to use the WCK tools to control an opponent. Anyone who has good WCK skills will have this aspect to their game. And as these skills/tools are integral to WCK's method, they should be taught/learned from day 1, as they are fundamental skills.

For a commercial product, Alan's DVD series (NHB Extreme WCK) explores this aspect. See, http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/products/extremwingchun.html

[Ultimatewingchun]

There is also something else to consider here, saifa...

Using standing joint and elbow locks, sweeps, and throws - while important to know, are difficult to get from a standing position against any kind of skilled opponent. Usually they will occur only after being set up by striking/controlling/unbalancing, ie.- a debilitating, or at the very least, a "stunning" type of strike has been landed - and then the lock, sweep, or throw.

[southernkf]

Hi Dave,

I don't think grappling and Chin-Na where often expressly taught by Yip Man. Others like Yuan Kay San people claim to have more in their system. I think others in Yip Man lines have added much to their system, especially after the popularization of MMA.

To go back to my comment that is surely to cause some discomfort, I don't mean to imply Yip Man wing chun has no Chin-Na. Quite the contrary. I think it is in the system, I just don't think that it self was taught specifically. I suspect it more rose opportunistically and probably wasn't valued as much as hitting by some. My view is that the chain punching you mentioned is very valuable in a certain context. But it is a lowlevel skill that in of itself can be learned very quickly. As is evident by the many discussions of the 1950's roof top challenges. But wing chun is much much more. And any decent teacher that really knows wing chun should be able to show you how to do more than "beat the hell out of someone".

I don't like throwing because it presents a problem, or atleast it can. If I take the trouble to get into contact range, I really don't want to get out of it. I think there is a dangerous area just outside where a good striker can easily outclass me. So if I get into my range I want to stay there. If I throw (depending on the type of throw of course) my opponent may be outside my range again. I am back at square one if he isn't hurt by the throw and gets up quickly. I perfer to control him. break down his structure and prevent him from countering. I hopefully can affect his balance, structure, and stability. I am not too interested in locking or trapping, but often the result is similar in that the person is unable to do much. Atleast that is the goal I am going for.

I think Chin Na itself is not lineage specific, so there is nothing specifically preventing you from using it in wing chun. Though I do think chin na specifically has a different goal and is applied somewhat differently, meaning some techniques may be at odds with some wing chun principles. But there I think you can use them as they present themselves and perhaps with some slight modifications.

[Liddel]

Anyone got any video links to VT specific grappling, even Demo stuff or the like ?

Im curious to see what the crux of it is about....PM me if you want it on the DL. :)

P.S Im in New Zealand so advice on going to see a class is just not an option.

Thanks
DREW

[YungChun]

In my book there's no such thing as "chain punching" in good WCK but there is punching.... :eek::rolleyes::cool: In addition to other kinds of striking..

All VT does have controlling elements as T says, in addition to hitting, but hitting is also part of this control equation, if understood and done correctly--and controlling aspects can be very subtle and breif.. Striking at times may be all that's needed depending on the conditions...

How and when and what "other controlling tools" used is very much dependant on the skill/intent of the WCK person and how the opponent resists or not IMO..

[Know Stile]

Why not just cross train in Jujitsu or a chin-na specific art? I can't imagine wing chun grappling being better than an art that concentrates specifically on joint locks and the like.

[LoneTiger108]

Why not just cross train in Jujitsu or a chin-na specific art? I can't imagine wing chun grappling being better than an art that concentrates specifically on joint locks and the like.

I've heard this so many times, and I honestly feel for those WCK students who have to supplement their training with outside influences and styles. Even by understanding the natural personalities of the 'Snake & Crane' can open up the mind to why our style has grappling and control techniques. The famous 'Lap Sau' drill is the Wing Chun introduction to this idea, but knowing how to drill just one way has its limits, we have to look beyond one posture.

I once had a nice conversation with 2 leading BJJ teachers and a Silat guru who could see BJJ/Silat in what I was doing but I explained that I was just 'acting like a snake' and they laughed! 'More like a bloody Anaconda!' they said, and we sat and compared language and histories...

[YungChun]

I've heard this so many times, and I honestly feel for those WCK students who have to supplement their training with outside influences

Don't feel bad for them--rejoyce that they have chosen to widen their horizon and have the time, energy and money to do so..

No, style or system has alll the answers, in combat as in life there are far too many questions for one method, no matter how "good" to answer..

[LoneTiger108]

No, style or system has alll the answers, in combat as in life there are far too many questions for one method, no matter how "good" to answer..

I've always been of the opinion that Wing Chun IS all Martial Art. I have tried relentlessly to prove myself wrong, believe me, but I just can't.

I have trained with and seen pre-practitioners from other Wing Chun families be completely changed by simple words from a skilled 'Sifu'. I have seen teachers from other styles go blank with horror at certian types of questioning regarding their knowledge and comparisons to Wing Chun.

What I can't understand is why so many pre-practitioners feel 'let down' by their teachers, or feel that 'something is missing' from their Wing Chun. This is no reason to search other styels as nothing is missing IMHO, maybe it's just not been talked about openly for far too long...

[YungChun]

What I can't understand is why so many pre-practitioners feel 'let down' by their teachers, or feel that 'something is missing' from their Wing Chun. This is no reason to search other styels as nothing is missing IMHO, maybe it's just not been talked about openly for far too long...
You won't find too many folks around here that agree with this..

WCK is indeed a very cool martial art. However anyone IMO that is reasonable can see not only the limitations of the art but the fact that, like any art, it SPECIALIZES..

WCK is about being simple and direct and specializes in close range hand to hand and use of other (2) weapons work..

To appreciate martial arts you have to appreciate that each art specializes in a different kind of strategy or method.. Even styles that are very close like S. Crane and WC have a slightly different focus in terms of tactical and tool preferences..

If these two very similar arts in range and in connectedness are yet still different than how different is WCK from an art that isn’t even in the same family of methods?

How about Tae Kwon Do?

How about Kwok Sul?

How about Judo?

How about BJJ?

Are you going to tell us that WCK has BJJ in it?

Or are you going to tell us that WCK renders ground work meaningless because no good WCK person will ever find himself down on the ground?

It's true that one can find all kinds of movements in WCK and even some tactics that resemble other arts.. But when you are really fighting using your WCK you have to "decide" WTF it is you are doing or trying to do and that goes for training too.. Many of these other arts do not have the same core tactic that WCK does.. That's what makes WCK what it is and often what is MISSING from a lot of poor WCK training..

Other arts may have a completely different mindset and if you make the mistake of thinking that WCK is just any old thing (way) of fighting/training then you more than likely won't be able to use it to it's full potential.

All the old Chinese teachers of old used to always say: Never just study one style.. Why? The answer is very clear to those who can see more than the little space above the well they have fallen in...

No style or system or method was ever intended to answer all questions and any reasonable "master" or "teacher" will tell you that..

[LoneTiger108]

How about Tae Kwon Do?

How about Kwok Sul?

How about Judo?

How about BJJ?

Are you going to tell us that WCK has BJJ in it?

Or are you going to tell us that WCK renders ground work meaningless because no good WCK person will ever find himself down on the ground?

It's true that one can find all kinds of movements in WCK and even some tactics that resemble other arts.. But when you are really fighting using your WCK you have to "decide" WTF it is you are doing or trying to do and that goes for training too.. Many of these other arts do not have the same core tactic that WCK does.. That's what makes WCK what it is and often what is MISSING from a lot of poor WCK training..

Very interesting stuff here YungChun. Firstly I cannot tell you that Wing Chun has BJJ in it, or TKD or KS or even Judo, but if you think that all of these others styles do not understand core Wing Chun principles like Central and Straight Lines, Triangular/Circular Stepping, Legwork and so forth I think you're mistaken because they do. Which came first is another discussion completely.

I was simply replying to 'Know Stile' (No Style?)

What I was trying to highlight here, which again I apologize for going off the subject of the thread, is the simple London saying:

'A Jack of All Trades is a Master of None'.

[YungChun]

Firstly I cannot tell you that Wing Chun has BJJ in it, or TKD or KS or even Judo, but if you think that all of these others styles do not understand core Wing Chun principles like Central and Straight Lines, Triangular/Circular Stepping, Legwork and so forth I think you're mistaken because they do.
I don't think the average Judoka with no WCK training has the slightest idea what WCK tactics and tools are (hell most WCK folks don't) anymore than the average WCK guy with no Judo training has a grasp on a Judoka's tools and tactics...

[YungChun]

What I was trying to highlight here, which again I apologize for going off the subject of the thread, is the simple London saying:

'A Jack of All Trades is a Master of None'.
Well it sounded more like:

"WCK has it all and anyone who goes out and cross-trains just doesn't get it.."

So I guess those folks who are going out and learning say, BJJ haven't 'lost their way'?

[UKBBC]

If you are anywhere near Richmond in VA, look for a CRCA school in King William, they do a lot of groundfighting there, very complementary with wing chun structure

[forever young]

I've heard this so many times, and I honestly feel for those WCK students who have to supplement their training with outside influences and styles.

man i think that you have it the wrong way round and i honestly feel sorry for those who think the sun rises and sets wing chun style!!!!! if you cannot see that wing chun does not have all the answers any more than any other system then you are truly blind.....
as has been pointed out to you 'wing chun specializes'

or as quoted elsewhere....

Is it me, or is striking vs grappling a bit like carpentry vs. bricklaying? They're different subjects, but to build a house you need both.
;):D

on a side note im glad that you find all the answers you need in wing chun! me personally i will continue to supplement my poor ass wing chun with some poor ass bjj and be D4mned to hell
HELL I SAY, HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH

oh and if you fancy meeting up sometime perhaps for some sparring/real grappling pm me and we could meet (depending on which part of londinium you are of course)

[sanjuro_ronin]

man i think that you have it the wrong way round and i honestly feel sorry for those who think the sun rises and sets wing chun style!!!!! if you cannot see that wing chun does not have all the answers any more than any other system then you are truly blind.....
as has been pointed out to you 'wing chun specializes'

or as quoted elsewhere....

Is it me, or is striking vs grappling a bit like carpentry vs. bricklaying? They're different subjects, but to build a house you need both.
;):D

on a side note im glad that you find all the answers you need in wing chun! me personally i will continue to supplement my poor ass wing chun with some poor ass bjj and be D4mned to hell
HELL I SAY, HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH

oh and if you fancy meeting up sometime perhaps for some sparring/real grappling pm me and we could meet (depending on which part of londinium you are of course)

LOL !!

Well said, HHHEEELLLLLL indeed !!!

[woodendumby]

I would second checking out Gary Lamb.

I ca'nt speak for other WC schools or variations... But at our school the WC includes plenty of locks , chokes, sweeps and other takedowns...


The fact is, most ppl on the street hav'nt been trained to fight....and that can be problamatic for ppl that have been trained to fight, imo. It,s like playing poker...which I do often. It can be very frustrating to try to beat ppl that "don't know how to play"...because they play wild and unpredictable.

The chances of you ening up on the ground at some point in a confrontation have to be about 50/50. I think it's instict to take it to the ground....especially if you're losing. You can see this from grade school fights to the UFC.

So while I do'nt think it's better to be a "jack of all trades" rather than a "master of one"....I do think that once youv've established proficiency in your art, there is nothing wrong with supplementing with some ground fighting skills.

[LoneTiger108]

Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks...
... Can someone give me some info on some wing chun schools in the U.S. that teach the chin-na part of the art?
Dave

Well, foreveryoung, I guess you skipped the first thread. I was trying to assist a fellow Wing Chun student find a Sifu who emphasises grappling skills, not try to rationalize trying another style or interrupt the flow of a good thread.

We all have our opinions and it's a shame that so many tend to try and influence people to cross-train, especially within a Wing Chun section of the Forum when the question was about finding a suitable Wing Chun school! I guess I haven't tried converting all you MMA ppl by entering your space, but then again thats just not my nature.

You're wasting your time trying to convert me I'm afraid...

AGAIN, let's get back on track and try to 'help' Dave.

[southernkf]

man i think that you have it the wrong way round and i honestly feel sorry for those who think the sun rises and sets wing chun style!!!!! if you cannot see that wing chun does not have all the answers any more than any other system then you are truly blind.....
as has been pointed out to you 'wing chun specializes'

or as quoted elsewhere....

Is it me, or is striking vs grappling a bit like carpentry vs. bricklaying? They're different subjects, but to build a house you need both.

I think this is a bit of a fallacy. I don't think you NEED both. I look at it very different. Kind of like cars. A truck and sports car are very different and serve different purposes. You can find hibryds, but you tend to sacrafice a little. If you want true speed and performance, you get something like a porche or what have you. If you haul large equipment, you get a truck. If you have a large family you get something different. Of course you can buy a El Camino that looks like a truck or a Dodge ram truck that may seem sporty. But both sacrafice and are no subsitute for the other. In my mind, wing chun plays a different game.

If you graft something on to it it goes against the grain of the style it self at a fundamental level. I have no problem learning multiple stuff so you canlearn grappling then switch between the two just as you might own a sports car and a pickup. But I think the problem there is getting enough time to train adequatly in both. Perhaps like trying to learn Classical Guitar the same time as trying to master the blues. Perhaps it is easy to toy with both, but hard to really acheive skill at either unless your pretty dedicated. But you can be functional.

But in any case, analogies and models are only so useful and they break down rather quickly if you look too close at them or apply them where they weren't meant to be applied

[t_niehoff]

I think this is a bit of a fallacy. I don't think you NEED both.


It depends on what your needs are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ask any bouncer currently working and they will tell you that the amount of people trying to fight like "MMA" is increasing.
Fact is shows like The Ultimate fighter and networks like Spike showcasing MMA are making grappling and MMA more and more common.
SO, if your goal is effective fighting, yes you need to be exposed to both striking and grappling at the highest level you can.

[Liddel]

SO, if your goal is effective fighting, yes you need to be exposed to both striking and grappling at the highest level you can.

Amen bruva - and i love my VT.

My Dads 64 AC Cobra with 450HP can waste my 4wd twin turbo Subaru in a straight line but as soon as we hit some corners..... he's toast ! :cool:

DREW

[forever young]

I think this is a bit of a fallacy. I don't think you NEED both. I look at it very different. Kind of like cars. A truck and sports car are very different and serve different purposes. You can find hibryds, but you tend to sacrafice a little.
well i think you are wrong. it isnt about sacrifice, i never sacrificed any wing chun i had learned the moment i started learning bjj. humans as a species dont generally behave in this type of 1 in 1 out mentality (well i dont anyway :) ) and i am quite capable of knowing how to drive both a motorbike and an hgv without any problem!!!!


If you want true speed and performance, you get something like a porche or what have you. If you haul large equipment, you get a truck. If you have a large family you get something different. Of course you can buy a El Camino that looks like a truck or a Dodge ram truck that may seem sporty. But both sacrafice and are no subsitute for the other. In my mind, wing chun plays a different game.
again knowing one thing has liitle to no bearing on knowing something else. if i want to run fast i run fast, if i want to jog slow i jog slow, if i want to carry my tv i carry my tv, knowing/ability to do one thing dosnt interfere with my ability to perform a different task, and further more i can eat a sandwich and walk at the same time so i think i might even be able to multi task (not as well as the wife granted but hey im just a man :p ) so getting back to your quote well i guess i will just go and buy all the vehicles i need for every occasion i might have (much like the work van AND family car i own and operate distinctly and individually while being able to do both to a fairly decent level - im no formula one driver but hey im still here ;))



If you graft something on to it it goes against the grain of the style it self at a fundamental level. I have no problem learning multiple stuff so you canlearn grappling then switch between the two just as you might own a sports car and a pickup.
as i stated im quite capable of knowing/ having the ability to do/use more than one thing and on occasion even concurrently/consecutively

But I think the problem there is getting enough time to train adequatly in both. Perhaps like trying to learn Classical Guitar the same time as trying to master the blues. Perhaps it is easy to toy with both, but hard to really acheive skill at either unless your pretty dedicated. But you can be functional. man you are so wrong its unreal :D ok ill spell it out if you learn to play the guitar you can and will learn to play all kinds of music....you might well have a preference as to which type of music/car you drive/plane you fly /whatever but you can and will be able to do all of those things - with the appropriate training of course whew :p now as to time i train as much wing chun now as i always did and once you are of a certain level you shouldnt really feel the need to sit in your horse while watching the tv or while out shopping with the wife (c'mon you all know you were there too once upon a time :D) sothe fact i have time to train bjj 3 times a week has little to no bearing on my wing chun time - oh and for the record while in my wing chun class i manage to somehow incredibly only do wing chun and similarly while in my bjj class i dont suddenly bust out with my horse stance mid triangle (altho the hip movement is another discusssion altgether)


But in any case, analogies and models are only so useful and they break down rather quickly if you look too close at them or apply them where they weren't meant to be applied
ah right so after all that its all just a crock eh?

[forever young]

Well, foreveryoung, I guess you skipped the first thread. I was trying to assist a fellow Wing Chun student find a Sifu who emphasises grappling skills, not try to rationalize trying another style or interrupt the flow of a good thread.

We all have our opinions and it's a shame that so many tend to try and influence people to cross-train, especially within a Wing Chun section of the Forum when the question was about finding a suitable Wing Chun school! I guess I haven't tried converting all you MMA ppl by entering your space, but then again thats just not my nature.

You're wasting your time trying to convert me I'm afraid...

AGAIN, let's get back on track and try to 'help' Dave.

hi well thanks for the pm and i hope we get to meet up as discussed, i think it will be good fun and in the spirit of exchange .....ps ill leave the 'converting' to the religous types and simply try and improve my meagre skills, hopefully you can teach me something and i look forward to learning from you.
re the op the premise remains that in order to learn 'good grappling' i need to seek out a specialist in this area however if i just wish to 'crapple' around a bit i would just perhaps buy a dvd or two, and hey presto instant grappling 101

[southernkf]

Hi Forever_young,

I think you really missed my points. You can indeed own as many specialized vehcles as you want and drive them all you want. That wasn't my point. My point was when you created a hybrid vechile that was part this vehicle and part that. Specialization is called a trait that takes advantage of unique abilities. Wing CHun is specialized as is BJJ or any other art. There is nothing preventing you from learning wing chun and some other style and use them as you wish. I said that in my post. The issue is trying to mix things together. Wing chun works on a specific framework that may be contradictory to other styles. Sure there always are similiarities, but the foundations may be very different.

As for music, I would love to see a Muddy Waters perform a Mozart piece or Andre Segovia perform BB Kings The Thrill is Gone. Sure they could get the melody and get by, but each is a specialty that requires a lot of practice and understanding of that genre. I am not saying a skilled Classical Guitarist can't find his way around the I-IV-V progression and play a blues scale with feeling, but there is so much more to what Clapton, King (any of them), or Son House does.


sothe fact i have time to train bjj 3 times a week has little to no bearing on my wing chun time
It doesn't? It seems to me that those 3 times a week are spent NOT training wing chun. So they do have a direct impact. I don't know how much you train a week in wing chun, but if you can substatially train in wing chun and other arts, great. You will be better than most people. Unfortunatly most people can't spend 5-7 days a week at wing chun training. Many people train say 2 days at school and maybe an hour at home. Then they expect to take another art which they may spend the same amount of time. There is nothing wrong with this, but I don't think your helpping your cause IF your intent is to get good at either. If you want to get good at wing chun you HAVE to devote lots of time. Look at most of Yip Man's most respected students and you will find they spent HOURS daily training. I don't feel you will get good at any art if you split the time. But agaiin, this is different for every one and I don't know your particulars. If you can put in the time, great. Learn as many arts as you want. I never suggested you couldn't. What I suggested is Grafting Chin-Na or something on to wing chun may be counter productive if it violates the principles wing chun depends on. You can't just take the hands of one art and graft it on to the legs of another, in my view. But nothing prevents you from applying Chin Na or BJJ when the opportunity presents itself.

Sorry I wasn't clear

[forever young]

Hi Forever_young,

I think you really missed my points. You can indeed own as many specialized vehcles as you want and drive them all you want. That wasn't my point. My point was when you created a hybrid vechile that was part this vehicle and part that. Specialization is called a trait that takes advantage of unique abilities. Wing CHun is specialized as is BJJ or any other art. There is nothing preventing you from learning wing chun and some other style and use them as you wish. I said that in my post. The issue is trying to mix things together. Wing chun works on a specific framework that may be contradictory to other styles. Sure there always are similiarities, but the foundations may be very different.

As for music, I would love to see a Muddy Waters perform a Mozart piece or Andre Segovia perform BB Kings The Thrill is Gone. Sure they could get the melody and get by, but each is a specialty that requires a lot of practice and understanding of that genre. I am not saying a skilled Classical Guitarist can't find his way around the I-IV-V progression and play a blues scale with feeling, but there is so much more to what Clapton, King (any of them), or Son House does.


It doesn't? It seems to me that those 3 times a week are spent NOT training wing chun. So they do have a direct impact. I don't know how much you train a week in wing chun, but if you can substatially train in wing chun and other arts, great. You will be better than most people. Unfortunatly most people can't spend 5-7 days a week at wing chun training. Many people train say 2 days at school and maybe an hour at home. Then they expect to take another art which they may spend the same amount of time. There is nothing wrong with this, but I don't think your helpping your cause IF your intent is to get good at either. If you want to get good at wing chun you HAVE to devote lots of time. Look at most of Yip Man's most respected students and you will find they spent HOURS daily training. I don't feel you will get good at any art if you split the time. But agaiin, this is different for every one and I don't know your particulars. If you can put in the time, great. Learn as many arts as you want. I never suggested you couldn't. What I suggested is Grafting Chin-Na or something on to wing chun may be counter productive if it violates the principles wing chun depends on. You can't just take the hands of one art and graft it on to the legs of another, in my view. But nothing prevents you from applying Chin Na or BJJ when the opportunity presents itself.

Sorry I wasn't clear

ahem i think it was me who wasnt clear :) bjj is done on the floor, wing chun is done standing up. now i never said i was "mixing things up" infact i clearly stated that when i do wing chun i do wing chun and likewise bjj and to clarify even further i personally would find it very hard for example to armbar or choke anyone within wingchuns preferred range nor would i likely have much success in for example performing a bongsau while being pinned to the floor in the north south position other than to get myself kimura'd or armbarred so to suggest that any "Grafting on" takes place appears to me to be a position based on ignorance of my intentions as to WHY exactly i feel the need to learn bjj and WHAT exactly bjj entails and its subsequent overlap within wing chun. i can safely state for a fact that doing bjj WONT wreck your wing chun in any way and most scary of all you might enjoy it. now how all this relates to training time or more specifically wing chun training time well as i stated i go to bjj on days when their is no wing chun and just fyi at one time i was training at least 16 hours of wing chun per week OUTSIDE class time :D, im lucky i have a job where i could and did spend all day doing chi sau with my brother and a sihing and a sidai for at least a 4 year period (infact i recently posted some clips of me and my bro training after taking the day off work) so while i have tapered this off a fair bit now i can assure you training something else takes only one thing and that is the commitment, it dont take anything away from wing chun when during all your available wing chun time you just do wing chun.
oh and again just to clarify when you say

Learn as many arts as you want. I never suggested you couldn't.
i think that

Then they expect to take another art which they may spend the same amount of time. There is nothing wrong with this, but I don't think your helpping your cause IF your intent is to get good at either. If you want to get good at wing chun you HAVE to devote lots of time
and


What I suggested is Grafting Chin-Na or something on to wing chun may be counter productive if it violates the principles wing chun depends on
betray what is in all honestly both an elitist attitude and perhaps a lack of understanding of cross training (or to be more accurate dual training ;))

[forever young]

Hi Forever_young,
The issue is trying to mix things together. Wing chun works on a specific framework that may be contradictory to other styles. Sure there always are similiarities, but the foundations may be very different.

i would just like to address this if i may :p now while i obviously dont know you or your background im gonna assume you have never trained bjj i can wholeheartedly assure you that in many many ways bjj adheres to the principles of wing chun as much or MORE than wing chun (leverage and strength/muscle usage are just a couple, hip and elbow control are some more, energy conservation blah blah i could go on (and most likely am :eek: but hey i dont mind :D)
in many ways one of the biggest things i have realised since beginning 'Dual training' is that things like telegraphing, power production (hip usage combined with body mass utilisation - etc etc) are NOT exclusive to wing chun and can be found in all systems one way or another. now before you all say yeah but yada yada yada bear in mind i had NO martial experience outside wing chun so i honestly thought the sun rose and set wing chun style and was definately one of the 'cant be taken down brigade';) so to discover this was quite a revelation especially as i was a wing chun snob of the highest order :p

[Liddel]

Ive not trained formally in BJJ - but from the things ive picked up from friends that i spar with that are BJJ and MMA fighters - much crosses over - which is what intrests me about BJJ to begin with....

Food for thought southernkf - Im glad you were not around when the Lok Dim Boon or BJD was "said to be" added to VT. Im sure the original behaviour was quite different to certain foudations of the H2H style -and still is in part - :rolleyes:

Think about it...

DREW :cool:

[saifa5k]

Sifu Gary Lam teaches chin na in his system, he calls it closing or standing grappling. He's located in Monterey Park, California (close to LA), www.garylamwingchun.com , call him, he's very open to talk to and always willing to answer your questions. I've trained there as well, it's basically a full time school, you live on the grounds and can get anywhere btwn 4 to 7 hrs a day of supervised training. Sifu Lam's level 1 is concerned with crossing hands (this is what Wing Chun is famous for, fast hands, trapping, chain punch, etc..), Sifu's level 2 is all about control and feeling, chin na is a part of the control aspect.

James

Hey James, thanks for your response, sorry it took so long to reply. Its good to hear that Sifu Lam believes in the chin na aspect of wing chun. Isnt he from the Wong Shung linage? Dont know if I spelled that write or not, but do you know if he has any students or instructors in Oklahoma any where? I live in the Tulsa,OK area which to my knowledge has no current wing chun schools of any linage openly teaching.
Dave

[saifa5k]

"Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks."

***THEN you should check out WENG CHUN. A close cousin to wing chun but it emphasizes standing armlocks, throws, and sweeps. Punching and kicking are secondary to the standing grappling aspects of this art.

LOL, I think you are putting me on but actually thats what I am looking for ;)
Dave

[saifa5k]

I have recently discovered that a few relatives of the Lee Shing Family are in the U.S, and anyone from this family will teach relatively useful grappling skills as we generally link this knowledge to our Pole/Stick and weaponry training.

Sifu Alan Lamb is highly recommended:

http://www.alanlambwingchun.com/

thanks for your response, I actually have a couple of Sifu Lambs tapes and your right he does show some joint locks in them. Do you know if he has any students in the Tulsa,OK area?
Dave

[YungChun]

Here's Gary doing some of that stuff..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eIDzU-xVRA

Some of it shows very good use of position and energy, etc..

Some of it looks like Aikido and as such I find it hard to imagine most folks applying it against skilled or decent opponents..

As a comparison to Aiki:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE4jkH204pM

[sihing]

Hey James, thanks for your response, sorry it took so long to reply. Its good to hear that Sifu Lam believes in the chin na aspect of wing chun. Isnt he from the Wong Shung linage? Dont know if I spelled that write or not, but do you know if he has any students or instructors in Oklahoma any where? I live in the Tulsa,OK area which to my knowledge has no current wing chun schools of any linage openly teaching.
Dave

Hey Dave,

Your correct, Sifu Lam was a long term student of Wong Shun Leung. He's taken what he learned from his Sifu, and added his own to it, drawing from his testing/research and experience. As far as I am aware there is nobody in your area that teaches his system. My best advice would be to travel to LA for a couple of weeks training, if possible longer, give him a call:)

James

[saifa5k]

My view is that WCK -- regardless of lineage -- has the tools for controlling an opponent, as that is an integral part of WCK's method (which is essentially to control while striking, with the control and striking working together to enhance each other -- your control increases the effectiveness of your strikes, your strikes aid you in control). The chain punchers you refer to, with their Caveman WCK, are only using a very, very limited aspect of WCK. The difficulty is finding someone who knows -- and they only know if they can do it -- how to use the WCK tools to control an opponent. Anyone who has good WCK skills will have this aspect to their game. And as these skills/tools are integral to WCK's method, they should be taught/learned from day 1, as they are fundamental skills.

For a commercial product, Alan's DVD series (NHB Extreme WCK) explores this aspect. See, http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/products/extremwingchun.html

Hey Terence my old friend from the wcml ;) I agree, just concentrating on wing chun chain punchs and kicks is not the highest level of the wing chun art. My problem is finding someone in the Tulsa,OK area that teaches a more advanced or complete wing chun. Last I heard you were doing some long distance training with Sifu Chu from California, is it correct to assume then that he incorporates chin na aspects as a way of control? By the way you still defending all the bad guys in St. Louis ;).
Dave

[YungChun]

is it correct to assume then that he incorporates chin na aspects as a way of control?

I seriously doubt that is what T meant by control...

WCK way of controlling is done in such a way as to keep our weapons free and in use--you do this--structure destruction while pounding them----crash and bash---together..

But I'll let T fill in the details..or not... ;)

[saifa5k]

There is also something else to consider here, saifa...

Using standing joint and elbow locks, sweeps, and throws - while important to know, are difficult to get from a standing position against any kind of skilled opponent. Usually they will occur only after being set up by striking/controlling/unbalancing, ie.- a debilitating, or at the very least, a "stunning" type of strike has been landed - and then the lock, sweep, or throw.

Hey Victor,
I agree with you completely. I have studing a little Aikido and Tai Chi along the way and they both teach that unbalancing first is the key to a successful lock or throw. What I am looking for now is someone that incorporates this into there wing chun style so I dont have to go outside of wing chun to learn locks, throws, etc. Appreciate your response.
Dave

[saifa5k]

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/products/extremwingchun.html[/url]

PS: appreciate the link, thanks

[YungChun]

I am looking for now is someone that incorporates this into there wing chun style so I dont have to go outside of wing chun to learn locks, throws, etc. Appreciate your response.

Any good WCK will have this... Just look around...

[saifa5k]

[QUOTE=southernkf;809769]Hi Dave,
I don't like throwing because it presents a problem, or atleast it can. If I take the trouble to get into contact range, I really don't want to get out of it.

I agree with you for the most part, what I am looking for is using locks to control an opponent to give myself the option of letting them reconsider if they really want to continue on before I pound them. You know the old drunk brother in law situation where you have to do something but do you really want to put him in the hospital and have everyone elso in the family ****ed off at you ;). On the other hand I believe a lock or control is very useful for control while pounding and breaking knees at the same time. As far as throwing goes while I agree with your statement above I also think the ground or pavement itself can cause a lot of punishment in itself and also give you a chance to get the heck out of dodge if thats the best case scenario.
Thanks for your input!
Dave

[sihing]

Here's Gary doing some of that stuff..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eIDzU-xVRA

Some of it shows very good use of position and energy, etc..

Some of it looks like Aikido and as such I find it hard to imagine most folks applying it against skilled or decent opponents..

As a comparison to Aiki:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE4jkH204pM

I noticed the resemblence to Aikido myself when I first saw this demo. It looks to me that Sifu here is demo'g one aspect of his 5 systems of Wing Chun, closing or standing grappling. In his Wing Chun curriculum, he teaches 5 systems, crossing hands is the first (made up mostly of striking, trapping, basic structure, what Wing Chun is famous for). To defeat crossing hands, you can do two things, totally disengage and run, or use closing (the 4th out of 5 systems), which means to get inside the person's guard or area and cut off their opportunity to use strikes, clinch range basically. From their many things can take place, it depends on the situation. Here's a part of an article written by Greg Leblanc, Sifu Lam's most senior student, on the subject of closing:

"The next branch of Wong Shun Leung Wing Chun is called closing. Closing includes all aspects of training that study how to enter in upon, occupy and control an opponent’s position. Closing also includes techniques that secure and hold the enemy, similar to chin na (Chinese grappling). Closing ultimately gives the practitioner the ability to move past the opponent’s three gates of defense (wrist, elbow and shoulder), stopping his action and holding his position. Closing techniques focus on disturbing balance and breaking the opponents ability to squarely face you, and neutralizing his bodies correct structural alignment for physical power (called the sitting/facing position by Sifu Lam). Closing movements are done on their own to hold an opponent or in conjunction with other techniques, such as a leg break, takedown or projection.

Closing, along with all other non-striking movements, are in Sifu Lam's Wing Chun style called secondary actions. Sifu Lam refers to secondary actions as techniques that usually do not initiate an attack, and are used only after a primary strike. Because secondary actions such as closing are not the main point of Wing Chun, which is to strike and incapacitate your opponent, they serve only to add a further dimension of control and versatility to our primary abilities. Secondary actions such as closing are used only when the opportunity is presented, automatically reacting to a chance occurrence in the volatile and close range environment of Qi Sao or a street fight."

James

[saifa5k]

I've heard this so many times, and I honestly feel for those WCK students who have to supplement their training with outside influences and styles. Even by understanding the natural personalities of the 'Snake & Crane' can open up the mind to why our style has grappling and control techniques. The famous 'Lap Sau' drill is the Wing Chun introduction to this idea, but knowing how to drill just one way has its limits, we have to look beyond one posture.

I once had a nice conversation with 2 leading BJJ teachers and a Silat guru who could see BJJ/Silat in what I was doing but I explained that I was just 'acting like a snake' and they laughed! 'More like a bloody Anaconda!' they said, and we sat and compared language and histories...

I agree its in wing chun, the purpose of my original post was to find what linages and Sifu's actually teach it so I dont have to study other arts like Aikido and Tai Chi to find what I think is already there in Wing Chun. I am not implying there is anything negative regarding Tai Chi or Aikido but some of their core principles do conflict with those of wing chun. For example the Aikido and tai chi both emphasize front leg body weighting which obviously conflicts with back leg weighting used in wing chun.
Dave

[saifa5k]

[QUOTE=woodendumby;810112]I would second checking out Gary Lamb.

I ca'nt speak for other WC schools or variations... But at our school the WC includes plenty of locks , chokes, sweeps and other takedowns...


Thanks, thats exactly what I am looking for, now if I can just find someone within a hundred miles of Tulsa,OK who incorporate this into there wing chun. If there is they would have a paying student ;)
Dave

[saifa5k]

[QUOTE=southernkf;810134]
If you graft something on to it it goes against the grain of the style it self at a fundamental level.

Yea thats pretty much the problem I have run into by trying to learn chin-na from studing tai chi and aikido. the locks and throws are essentially the same but the core fundamentals of the arts are different.
Dave

[saifa5k]

hi well thanks for the pm and i hope we get to meet up as discussed, i think it will be good fun and in the spirit of exchange .....ps ill leave the 'converting' to the religous types and simply try and improve my meagre skills, hopefully you can teach me something and i look forward to learning from you.
re the op the premise remains that in order to learn 'good grappling' i need to seek out a specialist in this area however if i just wish to 'crapple' around a bit i would just perhaps buy a dvd or two, and hey presto instant grappling 101

The purpose of my inquiry was definately not to replay the endless battle of groundfighting vs. standup and I dont want this thread to go in that direction. That thread in my opinion has beed done to death. Personally out on the street I am most likely to be attacked by a mugger who has no desire to take me to the ground and risk getting caught. I am simply looking for a "complete" if you will wing chun line that incorporates locks and throws using wing chun principles. At age 57 I really dont plan on entering the UFC any time soon ;))
dave

[saifa5k]

Hey Dave,

Your correct, Sifu Lam was a long term student of Wong Shun Leung. He's taken what he learned from his Sifu, and added his own to it, drawing from his testing/research and experience. As far as I am aware there is nobody in your area that teaches his system. My best advice would be to travel to LA for a couple of weeks training, if possible longer, give him a call:)

James

Thanks James, I may just have to do that. Several years ago a friend of mine who has since passed away was also a student of one of Sifu Lams instructors and was an instuctor himself in the LA area. He was kind enough to send me a private tape and he most definately incorpated a lot of take downs and joint locks.
Dave

[Knifefighter]

Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks. Lots of Yip Man styles put all their emphasis on chain punching and striking. I am curious as to whose lineage incorporates the throws and joint locks that are in wing chun. I think that sometimes its better to control an opponent than to just beat the hell out of them. Also joint locks and throws can be just as devasting as punches in my opinion. Can someone give me some info on some wing chun schools in the U.S. that teach the chin-na part of the art?
Dave

Trying to learn grappling from WC is like trying to learn striking from BJJ... not exactly the most efficient or effective method available.

As far as joint locks, other than the kimura, trying to do standing joint locks is pretty much a waste of time. Even the kimura is pretty hard to pull off from standing unless you are very experienced at grappling.

[mantis108]

Trying to learn grappling from WC is like trying to learn striking from BJJ... not exactly the most efficient or effective method available.

The focus of WC isn't grappling but that doesn't mean that WC can't reprioritize its focus. We could argue that the grappling training in WC in general is somewhat "lacking" at this point but it doesn't mean that one can't try to "revive" it. I would think it's all upto the practitioner of the style to polish that particular skill set.


As far as joint locks, other than the kimura, trying to do standing joint locks is pretty much a waste of time. Even the kimura is pretty hard to pull off from standing unless you are very experienced at grappling.

Any joint lock is hard without proper training. Chin Na is more or less "hand fight" stage before full blow clinching. Training with aliveness and position are just a important. You get experienced at grappling by actually grappling live, right? So you can get experienced at Chin Na by actually Chin Na live too. The problem is that the majority of TCMA schools including WC doesn't feel comfortable for the students to go free form with Chin Na (God knows why).

I am not a Wing Chuner but as far as I am concern, I believe Wing Chun Chi Sao is a good platform for WC students to work with their Chin Na skill set. It's sort of like you would start on your knee to roll in BJJ and then drill whatever finishing holds. But still you will need to go all the way to sparring and competiting. I once saw a video of Moy Yat about the faux pas of Wing Chun. He get into a few "phenomena" of bad Chi Sao habits but he didn't say too much about why they would be considered as bad habits. I couldn't help but think what he meant was those habits make it hard for switching from striking to Chin Na if need be. So the full range of Wing Chun skill set would be limited if bad habits are formed in Chi Sao. In other words, the skill of Wing Chun doesn't necessarily lie only with trigger happy striaght blasting.

Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

[monji112000]

The focus of WC isn't grappling but that doesn't mean that WC can't reprioritize its focus. We could argue that the grappling training in WC in general is somewhat "lacking" at this point but it doesn't mean that one can't try to "revive" it. I would think it's all upto the practitioner of the style to polish that particular skill set.



Any joint lock is hard without proper training. Chin Na is more or less "hand fight" stage before full blow clinching. Training with aliveness and position are just a important. You get experienced at grappling by actually grappling live, right? So you can get experienced at Chin Na by actually Chin Na live too. The problem is that the majority of TCMA schools including WC doesn't feel comfortable for the students to go free form with Chin Na (God knows why).

I am not a Wing Chuner but as far as I am concern, I believe Wing Chun Chi Sao is a good platform for WC students to work with their Chin Na skill set. It's sort of like you would start on your knee to roll in BJJ and then drill whatever finishing holds. But still you will need to go all the way to sparring and competiting. I once saw a video of Moy Yat about the faux pas of Wing Chun. He get into a few "phenomena" of bad Chi Sao habits but he didn't say too much about why they would be considered as bad habits. I couldn't help but think what he meant was those habits make it hard for switching from striking to Chin Na if need be. So the full range of Wing Chun skill set would be limited if bad habits are formed in Chi Sao. In other words, the skill of Wing Chun doesn't necessarily lie only with trigger happy striaght blasting.

Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

WC has no grappling in the system as passed down by Ip Man. Some people have added it, like Lo Man Kam (Ip man's Nephew). If you want to include it in your "syle", thats fine but you must get it from a external source or create it out of thin air.

I have learned some basic stuff in Chi sao, but its not what people call grappling, its just if someone holds your hand. I could see you using it in a fight, but how often is that going to come into play?

Outside of police/military applications, for fighting striking is the most effective given a situation were you don't know whats going on around you.

I have only seen one fluke standing joint lock in a MMA fight. I am sure they happen.. not as much as a jab , cross, hook , uppercut., elbow, knee... (most MA have them, WC does also)

If you are going to add something to WC I would add a guillotine choke, RNC, Thai clinch, wrestlers clinch ect.. JMO

[k gledhill]

There is no grappling in VT ..only ways to escape from due to someone unable to stop you hitting them ,,,grab, Ive had several fights that all had someone grabbin a wrist...we also use lop from bil jee our own grab , breaking our own guideliens' due to a weapon.... or a grab due to circimstances that dictate a change of direction, sometimes used in conjunction with a tok sao to the elbow if available to hyper-extend before re attacking ....basic levels should not teach lop sao, or the student becomes grab happy and doesnt let go in a real fight 'gorilla grip' syndrome....2 free hands hitting using angulation and elbow/forearm/wrist alignmnet in rotation striking & kicking , pushing , attacking constantly forward or wherever :D...VT can flow into anything , chi-na, aikido, bjj, thai kicks ...be like water .

btw lop sao can also be used to escape an attempted wrist lock ....

[Vajramusti]

WC has no grappling in the system as passed down by Ip Man. Some people have added it, like Lo Man Kam (Ip man's Nephew). If you want to include it in your "syle", thats fine but you must get it from a external source or create it out of thin air.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One of the problems in forum/internet posts is that folks try to generalize about all of wing chun- when often enough they
at best know their version.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

as a further fyi....many turn a striking art into this grab fest for lack of impact ....reality is a guy holding his head 5-6 ft away after you have punched him...not grabbing him , grabbing instantly takes your grabbing hand OUT of the fight for as long as its there...its hard to release this unless you train to ...in training due to this lack of 'reality' a lot of people start to over trap/grab stick, instead of developing a strong punch at the right time and distances constantly moving with this in mind....asa one starts to use grab and hit and keeps grabbing your both equal one arm free ....:D

it is very easy to lose site of this simple idea because of the misinterpreted chi-sao as needing contact with arms to function...it doesnt need contact the opposite it thrives on freeing itself of any obstuctions quickly and aggresively to finish....bil gee has grappling for emergency's. A skilled VT fighter simply points and shoots , removing anything that gets in the way with chi-sao trained reactions to given situations, in a fraction of a second , without thought to stop the attack by grabbing a fist out of the air or turning itself away from the attack in the process...

lop sao is also used if a bong sao is incorrectly used or didnt work , requireing a second hand to remove the punching arm from your intended attack line that the bong didnt do on its own...

[monji112000]

WC has no grappling in the system as passed down by Ip Man. Some people have added it, like Lo Man Kam (Ip man's Nephew). If you want to include it in your "syle", thats fine but you must get it from a external source or create it out of thin air.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One of the problems in forum/internet posts is that folks try to generalize about all of wing chun- when often enough they
at best know their version.

joy chaudhuri

Its a well known fact that Ip man didn't teach any chin na and chi kung. allot of people studied with him in private... so its more than possible that someone was privileged to grappling of some sort. Most people will say that they didn't learn any grappling or chin-na

[sihing]

Its a well known fact that Ip man didn't teach any chin na and chi kung. allot of people studied with him in private... so its more than possible that someone was privileged to grappling of some sort. Most people will say that they didn't learn any grappling or chin-na

It's been said that when you practiced specific Wing Chun techniques with Yip Man, therefore chi sau, he didn't use strikes to defeat you, he controlled your balance and power points, defeating you by making you fall over or trip over yourself. It has also been said the when Yip practiced SNT later in his WC career, he did so not really to practice Wing Chun technique, but to control his chi and breathing, a higher level skill set, Wong as well.

Wing Chun is primarily a standing striking art, with the idea to get things done very quickly and move on, that's harder to do when you grapple and get on the floor with someone. Lately, I've been luck enough to have learned that Wing Chun is about controlling the other guy while hitting him, instead of just blindly hitting and getting lucky in the process. Setting up, maintaining center, controlling center and applying your attacks with precsion, are what it is all about IMO. Chin na is just a helping system designed to give you more ability to control the opponent, and is especially useful in this day and age of getting sued if you use too much force for nothing. My first Sifu had chin na in his TWC system, Sifu Lam does as well in his, it's all a matter of seeing it in the movements you already do, and being able to apply it with proper timing and setup. IMO Chin na is something that just happens, and is not something you want to make happen, unless your skills are so much better than the other guy, where you can do what you want. To me, it is a great compliment to WC. The key is to first learn how to hit correctly, with the WC engine behind it (this is where I am presently at..), then after that is mastered, adding in a system of controlling concepts/techniqes can only make one a more well rounded practitioner.

James

[Vajramusti]

Its a well known fact that Ip man didn't teach any chin na and chi kung. allot of people studied with him in private... so its more than possible that someone was privileged to grappling of some sort. Most people will say that they didn't learn any grappling or chin-na(Monji)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chin na and chikung are not the same subject. Much of the thread was about grappling and chin na-not chi kung.

1.Ip Man taught in different ways to differrent people. There were the standard classes where he didnt personally teach as much as he did to students who paid special tuition and studied with him for a long time.

2. For instance very few people learned the kwan or the do from him directly. Few learned biu gee directly from him.

3. There is great diversity in what people learned. Hence IMO its easy to make the mistake of
overgeneralizing about the art or all practitioners. Big differences on what people mean by chi sao and how they do it. The devil in the details.

4. Of course he did not teach greco roman wrestling or free style or western boxing.

5. But he did teach an art whose structure and principles of motion were such that good students could adapt to a variety of situations where one can play their own wing chun game
and use their training, practical testing,application and experience and noggin to do so.

6.when principles are understood thorougly ,good engineering types can deduce various applications from them with practice and experimentation and yet be true to the principles involved.

joy chaudhuri

[sihing]

Its a well known fact that Ip man didn't teach any chin na and chi kung. allot of people studied with him in private... so its more than possible that someone was privileged to grappling of some sort. Most people will say that they didn't learn any grappling or chin-na(Monji)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chin na and chikung are not the same subject. Much of the thread was about grappling and chin na-not chi kung.

1.Ip Man taught in different ways to differrent people. There were the standard classes where he didnt personally teach as much as he did to students who paid special tuition and studied with him for a long time.

2. For instance very few people learned the kwan or the do from him directly. Few learned biu gee directly from him.

3. There is great diversity in what people learned. Hence IMO its easy to make the mistake of
overgeneralizing about the art or all practitioners. Big differences on what people mean by chi sao and how they do it. The devil in the details.

4. Of course he did not teach greco roman wrestling or free style or western boxing.

5. But he did teach an art whose structure and principles of motion were such that good students could adapt to a variety of situations where one can play their own wing chun game
and use their training, practical testing,application and experience and noggin to do so.

6.when principles are understood thorougly ,good engineering types can deduce various applications from them with practice and experimentation and yet be true to the principles involved.

joy chaudhuri

Good post Joy:cool:

[HardWork8]

Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks. Lots of Yip Man styles put all their emphasis on chain punching and striking. I am curious as to whose lineage incorporates the throws and joint locks that are in wing chun. I think that sometimes its better to control an opponent than to just beat the hell out of them. Also joint locks and throws can be just as devasting as punches in my opinion. Can someone give me some info on some wing chun schools in the U.S. that teach the chin-na part of the art?
Dave

Hello,


I practice Siu Lam Wing Chun. This is a Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun. This lineage of Wing Chun has a lot of grappling in it and believe it or not it also has ground fighting training, using Wing Chun techniques, concepts and principles. That is, it does not use borrowed techniques from judo, ju jitsu, wrestling, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't know of anyone teaching this lineage outside of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil and presumably China. I practised this system for 3 and a half years before I had to discontinue my training (temporatily) with my sifu to travel to London. I never got to the ground fighting stage of training but I did train Kum-La Chi Sao, which is a type of grappling/chin-na chi sao, which is then combined with the more common striking variation of the same exercise.

The differences with the Yip Man lineage do not end there. We seem to have a significantly greater variety of punching and kicking technics as well and we place a greater emphasis on chi kung (no chi kung, no kung fu). The iron palm training is closer in line with traditional shaolin methods.

These are facts, and I am not trying to start a forum debate on whose lineage is better or whose school is better. An equiry was made and I am trying to answer it to the best of my ability.

To conclude. Wing Chun is a complete art. Even so, it is not exempt from weaknesses. However, its main weakness, in my opinion, is the fact that most people teaching it have not themselves graspped the full richness and genius behind this art. As a result, they, and in many cases their students fill in the gaps within their knowledge by training in other arts to "complete" the missing pieces of the puzzle.

I don't know what part of the world you live in but here in London I have not had any luck in finding any Wing Chun schools with a similar curriculum and from what I have seen most, if not all of the main lineages are in one way or the other connected to Yip Man, so that is that.

Just keep in mind that there is more to Wing Chun than meets the eye. Many people teach a simplified version because they themselves don't know any better and/or because a simplified version is easier to standardize and make Wing Chun, "money making friendly".

[KPM]

I think its simple. If you want to be good at fighting on the ground, go to the people that specialize in it in order to learn. No matter how much you train your Wing Chun concepts on the ground, its not going to be as good as something like BJJ that was designed specifically for the task. Now this is not to say that Wing Chun doesn't have some good things to offer in the area. But use those Wing Chun ideas to transition to some serious ground work from something like BJJ or catch wrestling so that they blend well with your stand up skills.

Keith

[LoneTiger108]

I practice Siu Lam Wing Chun. This is a Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun. This lineage of Wing Chun has a lot of grappling in it and believe it or not it also has ground fighting training, using Wing Chun techniques, concepts and principles. That is, it does not use borrowed techniques from judo, ju jitsu, wrestling, etc...

...I don't know what part of the world you live in but here in London I have not had any luck in finding any Wing Chun schools with a similar curriculum and from what I have seen most, if not all of the main lineages are in one way or the other connected to Yip Man, so that is that.

It is interesting to hear from a Wing Chun student in London who is interested in curriculae outside the standard Yip Man Family. If you are to believe that everybody thats connected to Yip Man has no personal character or research into grappling or manipulation theories other than the Shaolin Yong Chun (Weng Chun) branches, you would be very mistaken.

The Lee Shing Family has connections with Yip Man, and we also have connections with China, mainly Gulao, Fatshan and Guandong. The best way I feel to assist everybody here is by mentioning family trees, this is the best comprehensive tree of Lee Shings Family of Wing Chun on the net, provided by Sifu Joseph Lee (also based in London).

http://www.josephleewingchun.com/Lineage.jsp

Even we have a 'Lap Sau Cum Lar' drill which introduces us to grappling, but more like 'catching' hands and we can further our studies by practising related arts if we feel that our style has 'missing' grappling attributes. All our programs were written down by our Sifu and it was left to individuals to either research or not. Some guys I know like to train in 'Shuai Jiao' (Chinese Wresling) so at least the terms are familiar, but I still feel happy enough with my Wing Chun.

Just as its the individual who can decide to 'specialize' in any area we feel suitable, Wing Chun can take any form and develop in any way neccessary as it did at the beginning and continues to do to this day...

[Knifefighter]

Any joint lock is hard without proper training.

And next to impossible when training the wrong stuff like standing joint locks and those dumb@ss "throw them on the ground by grabbing their neck and twisting them down" that are shown on most of the WC videos.

[monji112000]

And next to impossible when training the wrong stuff like standing joint locks and those dumb@ss "throw them on the ground by grabbing their neck and twisting them down" that are shown on most of the WC videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6SIS3_e3lY
that looks like what you are talking about :D

If you understand the basic "ideas" of any martial art you can use them on the ground. That is only in the context of a ground fighting art. I use my WC background all the time when I train BJJ. You can't tell the difference becouse BJJ has allot of the same ideas. (also I'm not very good at BJJ) A perfect example of someone who shows allot "WC" ideas in his fighting is FLoyd mayweather jr. why? becouse he fights with ideas, logic... to me that is what WC is about. Ricky hatton aslo..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LciIie3a_bQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeYWanxhfs

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6SIS3_e3lY
that looks like what you are talking about :D

If you understand the basic "ideas" of any martial art you can use them on the ground. That is only in the context of a ground fighting art. I use my WC background all the time in when I train BJJ. You can't tell the difference becouse BJJ has allot of the same ideas already. (also I am not very good) A perfect example of someone who shows allot "WC" ideas in his fighting is FLoyd mayweather jr. why? becouse he fights with ideas, logic... to me that is what WC is about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LciIie3a_bQ

Dude, Emin is just in a level all his own..hmmm,perhaps in a world all his own is more apt...

[t_niehoff]

If you understand the basic "ideas" of any martial art you can use them on the ground. That is only in the context of a ground fighting art. I use my WC background all the time when I train BJJ. You can't tell the difference becouse BJJ has allot of the same ideas. (also I'm not very good at BJJ) A perfect example of someone who shows allot "WC" ideas in his fighting is FLoyd mayweather jr. why? becouse he fights with ideas, logic... to me that is what WC is about. Ricky hatton aslo..


The "ideas" are superficial and have nothing to do with it.

Stand-up or free movement, clinch, and ground are three very different games, and that's because each situation involves a different degree of control put on you (which limits what you can and cannot do); involves different opportunities and problems; different body mechanics for movement, developing power; etc, in that situation.

The problem is that when people practice two different activities, they commonly see superficial similarities. This is how our brain is hard-wired. The "ideas" seem to be similar.

There are "similar" ideas in basketball and baseball, there are "similar" ideas in fencing and boxing, etc. You can be the best boxer in the world (so you'd certainly "know" the "basic ideas" of boxing), yet if they are taken to the ground will have nothing in the way of ground skill (remember Royce v. Jimerson, UFC 1?). WCK has similar ideas to chess. So what? Being a good WCK fighter won't make your chess game better, and being a good chess player won't make your WCK better. They even call BJJ "chess on the ground."

This is because these things are skill-based, not idea-based. Skill on the ground is not skill in free-movement. Skill in chess is not skill on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

I use my WC background all the time when I train BJJ. ... (also I'm not very good at BJJ)

Maybe that has something to do with why you are not very good at BJJ.

Maybe instead of trying to read WC "principles" into BJJ, you should pay more attention to the specific principles of BJJ.

[monji112000]

Maybe that has something to do with why you are not very good at BJJ.

Maybe instead of trying to read WC "principles" into BJJ, you should pay more attention to the specific principles of BJJ.

so you are saying to to not use leverage? or maybe not be careful about how much space you have from your opponent? Maybe you are saying to not use limbs to stop your opponent like a leg hook for the butterfly guard?

I think you misunderstood me, ideas are common to all martial arts. being relaxed is a common idea. Finding what you already understand and building on it is common sense.
The reason why I am not any good at BJJ is the amount of time I have been training.


The "ideas" are superficial and have nothing to do with it.

Ideas are everything. the other stuff are only details. if you don't have the big picture you have nothing.

[Knifefighter]

so you are saying to to not use leverage? or maybe not be careful about how much space you have from your opponent? Maybe you are saying to not use limbs to stop your opponent like a leg hook for the butterfly guard?

I think you misunderstood me, ideas are common to all martial arts. being relaxed is a common idea. Finding what you already understand and building on it is common sense.
The reason why I am not any good at BJJ is the amount of time I have been training.



Ideas are everything. the other stuff are only details. if you don't have the big picture you have nothing.

The problem is trying to take "universal" principles and apply them to groundfighting. On the ground, principles are often at opposite ends of the spectrum, depending on your position. A principle that applies to one position will be the exact opposite of what you should do in another position.

Sometimes you want to make space and sometimes you want to take it away, depending on your position. Sometimes you want to relax and sometimes you want to explode. You don't want to use your limbs to stop your opponent when he is mounted on you, but you do when he is passing your guard. You want to be centered to your opponent when you are in his guard and off-centered when he is in your guard. When doing a double leg you want your head on the outside, turning the corner in one direction. Not so with the single leg.... etc, etc, etc.

[anerlich]

If you understand the basic "ideas" of any martial art you can use them on the ground. That is only in the context of a ground fighting art. I use my WC background all the time in when I train BJJ. You can't tell the difference becouse BJJ has allot of the same ideas already.

I thought this way for my first couple of years of BJJ. I could see WC principles being used in BJJ, and found it interesting to look for similarities and to try to apply them.

After a while, I found that this thinking was holding me back, and I progressed faster if I took off the WC-coloured glasses and thought about my BJJ training in terms of BJJ concepts and principles.

AS even the Chinese traditionalists might say, you have to empty your cup to taste the other person's tea.

You keep thinking, "yeah, that's like such and such in WC and so I know it", but you just THINK you know it in the new scenario. The danger is you stop listening and analyzing because you think you understand it.

It seems like trying to take something you have experience in and trying to apply that to something else should give you shortcuts, but after the shortcuts run out you start hitting walls.

Be FLEXIBLE in your thinking. Leave your preconceived ideas at the door along with your ego. Arguably the former is just an aspect of the latter.

[monji112000]

The problem is trying to take "universal" principles and apply them to groundfighting. On the ground, principles are often at opposite ends of the spectrum, depending on your position. A principle that applies to one position will be the exact opposite of what you should do in another position.

Sometimes you want to make space and sometimes you want to take it away, depending on your position. Sometimes you want to relax and sometimes you want to explode. You don't want to use your limbs to stop your opponent when he is mounted on you, but you do when he is passing your guard. You want to be centered to your opponent when you are in his guard and off-centered when he is in your guard. When doing a double leg you want your head on the outside, turning the corner in one direction. Not so with the single leg.... etc, etc, etc.

I 100% agree with you, but having a frame of reference helps take the edge off the learning curve. I didn't say these "universal" ideas are the same in every art, they are applied differently in every situation. You don't need to be in a mindset to use something from another aspect of your life. No need to take off any WC mindset becouse I don't have one. Life isn't black and white.

Why do business professionals study military strategy? Why do people play GO and chess? study the art of war and many other books other their type? If I try to play GO with the same movements I do in chess.. then I am just stupid. If I take the spirit and build on common concepts thats something completely different. Do you think business professionals are going around attacking people in the office? Maybe they are taking hostages when having to deal with the accounting department and budgets?


In every art you have ideas that apply in some situations and not in others. Sometimes they work one way, then another they work against you.

[anerlich]

Why do business professionals study military strategy?

Because $1000 per hour consultants the HR manager brought in tell them they should, mainly.


Do you think business professionals are going around attacking people in the office? Maybe they are taking hostages when having to deal with the accounting department and budgets?

How many companies have you worked for? For at least one company I've worked at, that's not that far from standard operating procedure.

Everything is similar to everything else at some superficial level. Drive those similes and metaphors too far, you end up further from where you would have been had you adopted a beginner's viewpoint.

[HardWork8]

If you are to believe that everybody thats connected to Yip Man has no personal character

Not just Yip Man but to Wing Chun in general. This is unfortunate and sad, but it is true.


.....or research into grappling or manipulation theories other than the Shaolin Yong Chun (Weng Chun) branches, you would be very mistaken.

There are many Wing Chun stylists who research grappling and/or manipulation theories. It is the way they do it that concerns me most of the time. If they go and practise judo or bjj just to fill in the gaps without considering Wing Chun's own concepts and principles, then that is wrong and cannot be called WC grappling.

If they however try to fill in the missing bits by proper research to rediscover the stuff taken out or "forgotten", and reintroducing them to the system within its principles and concepts, then that has to be respected.

I practise Siu Lam Wing Chun Kuen, which is, yes Shaolin Wing Chun. As far as Shaolin Weng Chun is concerned, the little I have seen bears little resemblance to what I practise. I will however be taking a closer look at it before I make my final judgment.:) We do have full on ground fighting in this lineage and as I stated before I am not at this level of training yet.


Even we have a 'Lap Sau Cum Lar' drill which introduces us to grappling, but more like 'catching' hands and we can further our studies by practising related arts if we feel that our style has 'missing' grappling attributes. All our programs were written down by our Sifu and it was left to individuals to either research or not. Some guys I know like to train in 'Shuai Jiao' (Chinese Wresling) so at least the terms are familiar, but I still feel happy enough with my Wing Chun.

Just as its the individual who can decide to 'specialize' in any area we feel suitable, Wing Chun can take any form and develop in any way neccessary as it did at the beginning and continues to do to this day...

People can research all they want but if they are going to add something to their Wing Chun then it has to fit its principles, concepts and theories, otherwise it is not Wing Chun.

Also, as I stated before, Wing Chun is a complete fighting system but it seems that most practioners do not realise this because they have not been exposed to the richness of this art. Hence they cross-train in arts that contradict WC principles. This is different from researching and back tracking and then reintroducing lost techniques into WC within the arts theories and concepts. The latter is a noble approach and should be encouraged.

As far as just cross training is concerned, to each his own.

However, I am interested in your sifu's approach and if possible I would like to see a class. Is it possible for you to direct me to a West/Central London training session?

[YungChun]

The "ideas" are superficial and have nothing to do with it.

Stand-up or free movement, clinch, and ground are three very different games, and that's because each situation involves a different degree of control put on you (which limits what you can and cannot do); involves different opportunities and problems; different body mechanics for movement, developing power; etc, in that situation.

The problem is that when people practice two different activities, they commonly see superficial similarities. This is how our brain is hard-wired. The "ideas" seem to be similar.
Yet there is also a lot of genuine crossover even at the technique level among WCK and 'other', esp at clinch range, but also at any range where WCK has tools to be applied..

The movments used, positions, energy have many direct connections.. After all anything that is effecive in similar ranges will have similarities. :)

Beyond that having a common thread or common threads that run through different things can aid in adaptive training and adapting in application.

[Ultimatewingchun]

No matter how you cut it, wing chun "grappling" has no serious fighting answers if and when the fight gets to full clinch mode. And even less so once it goes to the ground.

Sure you can use some wing chun in clinch and on the ground. But to rely upon it as your "main" weapon at that point - including simply trying to apply it's principles in the new environment...is limited.

There's no way around it if your opponent has real grappling skills.

You're now with the disadvantage.

Crosstraining a grappling art is the smartest move.

[anerlich]

We do have full on ground fighting in this lineage and as I stated before I am not at this level of training yet.


Then how are you in a position to judge whether it's any good or not?


If they go and practise judo or bjj just to fill in the gaps without considering Wing Chun's own concepts and principles, then that is wrong and cannot be called WC grappling.


You're right (except that it's not wrong), but no one calls it that, they call it cross training.


Hence they cross-train in arts that contradict WC principles. This is different from researching and back tracking and then reintroducing lost techniques into WC within the arts theories and concepts. The latter is a noble approach and should be encouraged.


There's a saying about false consistencies and hobgoblins. What if the principles of those arts are superior to WC's in the areas they apply? Why are WC principles necessarily superior, or always superior, to those of other arts? Your attitude indicates that you don't bother lookiing seriously at other arts, so how would you know?

Why do I have to work within a WC framework all the time? Is there a law or something? They're looking for a Unified Theory of Everything in physics, but they're still looking. If I wanted a religion, I would have joined the Hare Krishnas.


Also, as I stated before, Wing Chun is a complete fighting system but it seems that most practioners do not realise this because they have not been exposed to the richness of this art.

That comes across rather pompous and condescending since by your own admission you haven't learned your whole system yet.

Maybe they have been exposed to the richness of this art, but still kept looking, and found that there was other stuff that was richer still in certain areas, perhaps only for them but perhaps not, that they adopted instead. Scary, huh?

[Knifefighter]

Also, as I stated before, Wing Chun is a complete fighting system but it seems that most practioners do not realise this because they have not been exposed to the richness of this art. Hence they cross-train in arts that contradict WC principles.

Sounds like you have been brainwashed by an insecure instructor who is afraid you might find something better out there.

[saifa5k]

Sounds like you have been brainwashed by an insecure instructor who is afraid you might find something better out there.


I visited a JKD school a couple of times. Part of their training was called "entering and trapping" which was the only thing that was even close to what Bruce Lee taught. The only problem was when they practiced their "entering and trapping" they did it using footwork based on western boxing or MT boxing. Personally I thought it was a very poor imitation of of the trapping aspects of wing chun. It made me wonder if there BJJ and Muy Thai was also a very watered down version of those arts. Its my sincere belief that you cannot just "graft" other arts into your wing chun art. After much visiting other schools and personal reflection I really dont think you can.
Dave

[anerlich]

Its my sincere belief that you cannot just "graft" other arts into your wing chun art. After much visiting other schools and personal reflection I really dont think you can.


Opinions vary.

Personally, I don't look at it that way. I study multiple arts, not one art. I didn''t take the Pledge of Alliegance to Wing Chun or sell my soul to Leung Jan's ghost. I don't have to graft anything to anything.

It's not a religion, it's a skill set, with advantages in certain situations and limitations in others. This is pragmatism, some of the attitudes here are fundamentalism.

If you have a hammer, and find you need to drive some screws, you can try to bash them in. You could try and modify the hammer so it can also be used to slot into a screw head and turn.

Or you could go buy a friggin' screwdriver.

[Liddel]

Flippers make you much faster in the water and are completly different in design and use to the running shoe.....and range - water vs Land.

Cant think of anyone that has tried to run with flippers on or anyone that ties to swim in shoes for added speed just cause they adhere to one set of concepts :rolleyes:

You use the art, it doesnt use you Dave... :cool:

DREW

[HardWork8]

Then how are you in a position to judge whether it's any good or not?

It exists. Everything else that exists in Wing Chun and that I have practised has a purpose and is functional as well as practical. So I draw my own conclusion based on that fact. You can draw your own based on your own experience of the lineage that you practise.




You're right (except that it's not wrong), but no one calls it that, they call it cross training.

As long as they don't call it Wing Chun, they can call it whatever they want.




There's a saying about false consistencies and hobgoblins. What if the principles of those arts are superior to WC's in the areas they apply?

Then that is very good for the practioners of those arts. However, if they need to improve their striking arsenal they are better off training western boxing,Muy Thai or plain simple kick boxing, which are arts that have relatively simpler principles and concepts, and may be easier to assimilate.


Why are WC principles necessarily superior, or always superior, to those of other arts?

You misunderstand, Wing Chun principles may be superior or they may not be, but they are DIFFERENT. In my opinion their principles are superior and more profound than those of judo and bjj, but you don't have to agree.

Also, Wing Chun principles are not superior to other arts there are other kung fu styles with superior principles to that of Wing Chun .:D


Your attitude indicates that you don't bother lookiing seriously at other arts, so how would you know?

How wrong you are. I do "look" at other arts, but these are arts that are relevant to Wing Chun.


Why do I have to work within a WC framework all the time?

You don't have to do anything. However. I have the feeling that you have not been exposed to Wing Chun as a complete art, so if you want to compensate for that fact by filling in the gaps by "cross training" then the best of luck to you.


Is there a law or something?

No there are no laws nor any "somethings". There are however principles and concepts that are part of Wing Chun and cross training in an irrelevant art may go against those principles, if you don't follow the principles then your WC is lacking.




They're looking for a Unified Theory of Everything in physics, but they're still looking.

I am not talking about a unified theory about martial arts. What I am talking about are PARTICULAR theories, principles and concepts that apply to the art of Wing Chun. These have to be respected. However, you are free to cross train as much as you like if you are not being taught the complete system of Wing Chun.



If I wanted a religion, I would have joined the Hare Krishnas.

Take my advice and don't join any religion. All religions are mind control vehicles invented to control and manipulate the masses, avoid them as much as you can. :D




That comes across rather pompous and condescending since by your own admission you haven't learned your whole system yet.

My statement stands and it also holds true for other kung fu styles and quiet a few karate styles as well. This is the famous Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenom.


Maybe they have been exposed to the richness of this art, but still kept looking, and found that there was other stuff that was richer still

Richer still like bjj, judo, or western wrestling? Don't make me laugh. Whoops too late, you already have.



in certain areas, perhaps only for them but perhaps not, that they adopted instead. Scary, huh?

It certainly is scary. However, I am philosophical about these things as in the martial arts world one always comes across people who have completely missed the point of the art they practise, sometimes through their own fault and sometimes through the fault of their supposed teachers, resulting in them "diversifying" into irrelevant paths. It sure is scary.

Hardwork8

PS. To be fair, there are others who diversify into RELEVANT paths.

[sihing]

Hardwork 8, checkmate:)

[HardWork8]

Sounds like you have been brainwashed by an insecure instructor who is afraid you might find something better out there.

You are completely wrong. The only thing that my instructor may be "afraid" of is that I "might find something" IRRELEVANT "out there". I am currently training in another style in London and with my WC instructor's (who is in Brazil) full blessing.

You may however be brainwashed, like so many "modern" martial artists who think cross training is the answer to everything.

[HardWork8]

Hardwork 8, checkmate:)

Thanks sihing. I am just telling it the way it is.:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Anerlich and Knifefighter are completely right on these issues.

The fact that so many people still think that wing chun is (or can be) the end-all-and-be-all is ludicrous.

Another reason to plug my idea about having a wing chun sparring venue that's open to all styles.

IF YOU CAN'T BRING THE HORSE TO THE WATER THAN BRING THE WATER TO THE HORSE.

One good reason for wing chun sponsored sparring venues open to all styles is that so myths like this can be put to rest when wing chun only guys get brought to the ground and submitted because they failed to crosstrain in a grappling art.

"Ouch! And this happened at a wing chun sponsored tournament. And all my wing chun friends came here today to support me because they knew I was fighting - and this bum choked me out!" :eek:

Crosstraining just makes so much sense. Even if the goal is to stay on one's feet because they're now skilled in sprawling.

But at least they'll have skills if it does go to the ground. Grappling skills. Not just wing chun striking skills.

[Knifefighter]

Anerlich and Knifefighter are completely right on these issues.

The fact that so many people still think that wing chun is (or can be) the end-all-and-be-all is ludicrous.

Another reason to plug my idea about having a wing chun sparring venue that's open to all styles.

IF YOU CAN'T BRING THE HORSE TO THE WATER THAN BRING THE WATER TO THE HORSE.

So myths like this can be put to rest when wing chun only guys get brought to the ground and submitted because they failed to crosstrain in a grappling art. Crosstraining just makes so much sense. Even if the goal is to stay on one's feet because they're now skilled in sprawling.

But at least they'll have skills if it does go to the ground. Grappling skills. Not just wing chun striking skills.

D@mmittall!! I hate when Victor makes sense.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ha! Ha! Ha! :cool:

[AmanuJRY]

D@mmittall!! I hate when Victor makes sense.

He hates it when you make sense....:D

I have to agree with crosstraining....even with the crosstraining I've done, against a skilled opponent I get taken down more than I would like. And a fair amount of the WC 'anti-grappling' tech's I was taught are not very effective compared to some basic wrestling concepts. Also, I believe other arts like savate or MT are better for use in kicking range.

[YungChun]

Thanks sihing. I am just telling it the way it is.:)
No you're telling it the way it isn't..

And by doing so, you are doing a disservice to the art because you are feeding the fantasy that will lead some naive newbies down the rosy path to getting pwned on the ground or in the clinch...

Please tell us who, what family/clan claims that WCK is a ground fighting art, or addresses ground fighting.. Also please explain how, which WCK 'principles' apply when on the ground or in some basic grappling positions..

It should be simple to tell or show us how your lineage addresses some basic grappling problems like..

When in a single collar tie with under hook

When in a double collar tie

When in a body lock

When in side control

When mounted

All when dealing with a trained grappler..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many people have issues with cross training because they think that same how, if they cross train that they will contaminate their core system and that is just wrong.
Perhaps if your core system is a short hand one and you take up Muay Thai there COULD be an issue with power generation and delivery, something that is easily delt with, but the pros far outweight the cons.
The vast majority of people that cross train do so to fill in gabs in their core style.
A WC man cross training in judo or wrestling or BJJ is NOT a grappler, nore does he seize to be a WC practioner, he is simply a WC practioner that is ALSO training in grappling.

No reason not to do it, no reason at all.

[CFT]

Have you not been reading the forum Jim? I thought HFYWCK and Weng Chun have made this claim, or similar?

[YungChun]

Many people have issues with cross training because they think that same how, if they cross train that they will contaminate their core system and that is just wrong.
Perhaps if your core system is a short hand one and you take up Muay Thai there COULD be an issue with power generation and delivery, something that is easily delt with, but the pros far outweight the cons.
The vast majority of people that cross train do so to fill in gabs in their core style.
A WC man cross training in judo or wrestling or BJJ is NOT a grappler, nore does he seize to be a WC practioner, he is simply a WC practioner that is ALSO training in grappling.

No reason not to do it, no reason at all.

IMO it stems from greed--money..

No, no, no you don't need to train out$ide our $y$tem becau$e our $y$tem ha$ it all.. And if you do “go outside” of WCK then you are misinformed, your WCK will suffer and it just shows you don't have the true--real WCK, which is of course a complete--Ka Ching— $y$tem...

I can $how you--just by our DVDs and stay the cour$e and it will all become clear..:rolleyes:

Fries with that?

What a load..

[sanjuro_ronin]

IMO it stems from greed--money..

No, no, no you don't need to train out$ide our $y$tem becau$e our $y$tem ha$ it all.. And if you do “go outside” of WCK then you are misinformed, your WCK will suffer and it just shows you don't have the true--real WCK, which is of course a complete--Ka Ching— $y$tem...

I can $how you--just by our DVDs and stay the cour$e and it will all become clear..:rolleyes:

Fries with that?

What a load..

One wonders where these views come from considering the MA history is filled with cross trainers.
Perhaps you are right, its all about the pesos.

[YungChun]

Have you not been reading the forum Jim? I thought HFYWCK and Weng Chun have made this claim, or similar?
I don't know...

Does HFY claim to be a ground fighting system?

I cannot speak to Weng Chun... Perhaps our resident Weng Chun guy can comment on their ground game.. IME WCK is not a ground fighitng system... But folks are free to prove me wrong, show us the WCK ground fighting in ground fighting venues..

[YungChun]

One wonders where these views come from considering the MA history is filled with cross trainers.
Perhaps you are right, its all about the pesos.
Cross training from what I have read has always been considered the way to go for those serious about skills going way back.. And today the results of cross-training speak for themselves in venues where being a multidimentional fighter is key...

That's why when you hear folks saying *otherwise* your BS meter just has to be pegged all the way on LOAD...

[CFT]

I don't know...

Does HFY claim to be a ground fighting system?

I cannot speak to Weng Chun... Perhaps our resident Weng Chun guy can comment on their ground game.. IME WCK is not a ground fighitng system... But folks are free to prove me wrong, show us the WCK ground fighting in ground fighting venues..No, you're right, I don't think they have ever claimed to be a ground fighting system but that they can still perform their Wing/Weng Chun on the ground.

[t_niehoff]

No, you're right, I don't think they have ever claimed to be a ground fighting system but that they can still perform their Wing/Weng Chun on the ground.

Here's two questions:

1) when did that aspect come into the weng chun curriculum?

2) does anyone in weng chun outside of Andreas Hoffman's group (yes, Virginia, there are other weng chun people out there) perform their weng chun on the ground?

Because it seems to me that this "emphasis" came into being shortly after Andreas began training BJJ with Rickson (Andreas is, I understand, now a BB in BJJ).

[JPinAZ]

I don't know...

Does HFY claim to be a ground fighting system?

I cannot speak to Weng Chun... Perhaps our resident Weng Chun guy can comment on their ground game.. IME WCK is not a ground fighitng system... But folks are free to prove me wrong, show us the WCK ground fighting in ground fighting venues..

To answer from my current experience, HFY does have 'ground fighting' in it's system, along with what one could call anti-grappling (of course, this term is quite sticky around here, but it is what it is). I spent the past 2 full weeekends training just this at 2 seperate seminars. But, before there can be any discussion, the deffinitions for these 2 terms has to be clear.
Ground fighting is different than ground wrestling, in that you don't use the wrestling/grappling to fight on the ground. If one feels the only way to 'ground fight' is to go body-to-body, then they might be suprised at what I have seen. Anti-grappling is different than grappling in that you don't use the grapplers same tools to deal with them. If you did, it would just be called grappling.

Of course, these 2 seminars were both public, and anounced here and elsewhere, but no-one from outside the lineage attended. I am guessing no one is really that interested in learning about it, so I will only go so far with my explenations here.. :)


Jonathan

[YungChun]

To answer from my current experience, HFY does have 'ground fighting' in it's system, along with what one could call anti-grappling (of course, this term is quite sticky around here, but it is what it is). I spent the past 2 full weeekends training just this at 2 seperate seminars. But, before there can be any discussion, the deffinitions for these 2 terms has to be clear.
Ground fighting is different than ground wrestling, in that you don't use the wrestling/grappling to fight on the ground. If one feels the only way to 'ground fight' is to go body-to-body, then they might be suprised at what I have seen. Anti-grappling is different than grappling in that you don't use the grapplers same tools to deal with them. If you did, it would just be called grappling.

Of course, these 2 seminars were both public, and anounced here and elsewhere, but no-one from outside the lineage attended. I am guessing no one is really that interested in learning about it, so I will only go so far with my explenations here.. :)


Jonathan

Hey man, I'm all for anything that works..

Personally I don't buy that any of this "ground stuff" came out of the box in any WCK and I know it didn't come "out of the box" from any Ip Man Wing Chun..

Most of this stuff regardless of how good it is--or not, is just some WCK Sifu's attempt to fill a market niche… Now if just say the stuff is good then cool, but if it isn’t then…not cool.

But when it's sold like some secret sauce it makes it even tougher to take seriously.. Let's see some WCK folks who can use it on the ground successfully against some actual grapplers... Have you seen this material work against grapplers or ground and pounders who actually fight and with full resistance?

In the end we all have to make an analysis of what we think is good or not and then do our best to test it out against good people.. And please do that before you tell us how “good” it is..

[JPinAZ]

Hey man, I'm all for anything that works..

Personally I don't buy that any of this "ground stuff" came out of the box in any WCK and I know it didn't come "out of the box" from any Ip Man Wing Chun..

Most of this stuff regardless of how good it is--or not, is just some WCK Sifu's attempt to fill a market niche… Now if just say the stuff is good then cool, but if it isn’t then…not cool.

But when it's sold like some secret sauce it makes it even tougher to take seriously.. Let's see some WCK folks who can use it on the ground successfully against some actual grapplers... Have you seen this material work against grapplers or ground and pounders who actually fight and with full resistance?

In the end we all have to make an analysis of what we think is good or not and then do our best to test it out against good people.. And please do that before you tell us how “good” it is..

I can only give you my perspective - I'm not 'selling' anything :)
Everything I've seen in the past 30 or 40 hours or so of training the material is that everything I've been shown directly relates back to everything I've learn in WC so far. Every concept and principle still guides my actions. The same gate theories, body alingnments, facing, Heaven/human/earth concepts etc. apply. Nothing has changed.
So, is it still WC, or something 'new' that was cooked up? I'd say it's very very much HFY WCK. Nothing I have learned violates or goes against anything I've learned in the past - rather, it simply reinforces what I have learned.

as far as 'secret sauce': the workshops were open to the public. The infromation was available to all. There is another workshop planned next month in ohio. And I believe another will follow in rochester NY (?). And in march, I am assuming the material will be presented again in San Francisco...
-----
You mention Yip Man. Well, I can't speak much for that lineage, so can't relate to what you personally know. But just because you haven't seen it in that lineage, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Hopefully this makes sense? (and not saying anything for or against Yip Man, it's just that maybe we come from 2 distictly different views/understandings of WC)

[k gledhill]

VT doesnt grapple , its personal stuff added...VT flows into grappling simply because we are 'hands on ' and lose sight of a strikes effects to send guys 5-6 ft away holding their heads in pain...no hands to trap anymore ! , guys ko'd at your feet. or holding his head while you hit another guy trying to get 'too close' :D
Best to avoid grappling , if a guy goes down from a punch and tries to get back up I kick them in the head . You get teeth marks in your foot but hey better than jumping on them and getting into a wrastle...used it in a real fights too,VERY FUNCTIONAL, thought I killed the guy, kicked him with a front kick hard enough to lift him off the ground and hit a wall directly behind him [ double wahmy] he fell semi lucid , tried to come back at me ...good night to the head .
Seen it banned in the ufc. The rules tend to favour follow on techniques ...The recent Throwdown clip shown at 'Fighthouse' I was at in the morning training a guy in VT...I listened to the points system, its all geared for going to ground and doing ground work. btw I could hear guys commenting on our VT training ..." good hands " they said T, not YOUR CRAP GET OUT OF GYM :D

[unkokusai]

Best to avoid grappling ,


Sure, if you're not any good at it or are better at something else the situation may call for.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure, if you're not any good at it or are better at something else the situation may call for.

I think his post was in "good humour", at least I hope it was :D

[YungChun]

I think his post was in "good humour", at least I hope it was :D
I think Kevin is expressing a valid if also amusing WCK prespective.. If we are primarily WCK folks then we would want to keep *us* standing...

[k gledhill]

Depends on ones 'reality' fighting a group or 1on 1 ...Ive used my own Judo in nightclubs when Ive slipped or been knocked down in the chaos, not by choice ..but I try to get up asap, not work the ground..my reality was being kicked or glassed , cut, unless I can get up quick move and strike again....Im totally for BJJ VT + BJJ is a formidable duality

and yes humour always:D

[YungChun]

No matter how you cut it, wing chun "grappling" has no serious fighting answers if and when the fight gets to full clinch mode.
Have you seen any of Randy Couture's clinch fighting series?

I see a lot of crossover..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you seen any of Randy Couture's clinch fighting series?

I see a lot of crossover..

The human body can only move in X ways under X circumstances that "cross over" and resemblences will be obvious.

[YungChun]

The human body can only move in X ways under X circumstances that "cross over" and resemblences will be obvious.
I agree and yet there are oh so many ways to dance.. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree and yet there are oh so many ways to dance.. ;)

So "dancing with the stars" has shown us.
:D

[YungChun]

Well I'm talking about the differences between what Randy Couture is doing in the clinch in some of those vids vs what a Thai Boxer or Boxer might do in the clinch, vs what a WCK guy might want to do in the clinch, etc....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well I'm talking about the differences between what Randy Couture is doing in the clinch in some of those vids vs what a Thai Boxer or Boxer might do in the clinch, vs what a WCK guy might want to do in the clinch, etc....

We need to remember that the rule set in sport combat dictates how things are done, wrestling clinch in greco-roman and freestyle are different, boxing clinch and MT clinch are different, MMA clinch and WC clinch are different.
All are different, yet same.

[YungChun]

We need to remember that the rule set in sport combat dictates how things are done, wrestling clinch in greco-roman and freestyle are different, boxing clinch and MT clinch are different, MMA clinch and WC clinch are different.
All are different, yet same.
I agree but the moves Couture uses could certainly be used by a MT guy...under those rules...etc...

IMO certain differences are simply chosen or related to dogma or preferred tactics..

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree but the moves Couture uses could certainly be used by a MT guy...under those rules...etc...

IMO certain differences are simply chosen or related to dogma or preferred tactics..

Of course and when one decides to add something, like the clinch for example, to his aresenal one must decide where they wil be using it and develop it accordingly, perhaps the MMA clinch is better to add on to WC, or perhaps the MT clinch is best for WC or the greco-roman clinch is better for Hung gar.
Of course, any solid foundation can be expanded and customized to the situation.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Have you seen any of Randy Couture's clinch fighting series?

I see a lot of crossover..


***YES. In fact I downloaded about 30 minutes of it from a certain venue, and watch and learn from it constantly. Real good stuff.

And as far as "crossover" is concerned, if you put his stuff together with Muay Thai clinch technique and the use of knees - and with wing chun infighting technique - including the use of elbow and palm strikes...boxing uppercuts and tight hooks....shoot to the leg techniques...sprawling...etc.

there's quite a bit of room for creativity and functional "infighting" skills that can result. We work this routine constantly - as I believe that fighting well in the clinch is an extremely important skill to develop.

[JPinAZ]

And as far as "crossover" is concerned, if you put his stuff together with Muay Thai clinch technique and the use of knees - and with wing chun infighting technique - including the use of elbow and palm strikes...boxing uppercuts and tight hooks....shoot to the leg techniques...sprawling...etc.

You'd get MMA. IMO WC already has answers for a lot of this WITHOUT having to resort to playing the other guys game.


there's quite a bit of room for creativity and functional "infighting" skills that can result. We work this routine constantly - as I believe that fighting well in the clinch is an extremely important skill to develop.
True enough, but again, IMO WC has tools for this too.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Not trolling you, JP....but I sure would like to see someone post some clips of this before I could take such claims seriously. There's infighting clinch skills and then there's infighting clinch skills. Before I believe that wing chun (or even weng chun) has the kinds of answers one would want to have against today's top mma fighters - particularly the moves/concepts they use - as opposed to being up against any particular "pro" fighter...

I have to see it first.

And by that I don't mean being invited to someone's seminar.

Somebody should just post something.

[monji112000]

You'd get MMA. IMO WC already has answers for a lot of this WITHOUT having to resort to playing the other guys game.


True enough, but again, IMO WC has tools for this too.

When you say WC you are making such a general statement that the term isn't worth anything. You could be referring to a million different styles and variations. Some use the same principles and others are vastly different. Techniques that are more popular or that exist today that didn't in HK and China pose a obstacle for any TMA. Its not "real" to make black and white statements about WC.

Maybe you should say "You'd get MMA. IMO MY WC STYLE already has answers for a lot of this without having to resort to playing the other guys game."
that would put things into context. are you talking about EMIN's crappling?

[anerlich]

Take my advice and don't join any religion.

I've read through your advice and see it to be lacking both experience and intellectual foundation. Thanks but no thanks.


However, you are free to cross train as much as you like if you are not being taught the complete system of Wing Chun.

As we are in the event we are being taught the complete system.


I am currently training in another style in London and with my WC instructor's (who is in Brazil) full blessing.

IOW, you are wasting your time since WC is a complete system and you don't need to learn anything else. Try not to get that foot any deeper down that throat, boy. It's good you have your Sifu's blessing, though the fact you seem to need it to make decisions is something of a concern.


Hardwork 8, checkmate

Not so fast James, he could have been talking about Gary, Ernie and you.


However. I have the feeling that you have not been exposed to Wing Chun as a complete art, so if you want to compensate for that fact by filling in the gaps by "cross training" then the best of luck to you.


Now you're making me laugh. Just keep taking your Sifu's blue pills and remain a human heat source.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Maybe you should say "You'd get MMA. IMO MY WC STYLE already has answers for a lot of this without having to resort to playing the other guys game."
that would put things into context. are you talking about EMIN's crappling." (monji)


***I don't think he is.

(And I agree with you about Boztepe's stuff. There's a few good moves there - but I doubt very highly that he could pull off any of his anti-grappling stuff against a Randy Couture, for example. And Randy is just one of a multitude of people who could be cited as examples. Not just because they are who they are. But because of the sophistication of the techniques/strategies they use).

JP does HFY wing chun. A different lineage entirely than Boztepe's WT.

[HardWork8]

Of course, these 2 seminars were both public, and anounced here and elsewhere, but no-one from outside the lineage attended. I am guessing no one is really that interested in learning about it, so I will only go so far with my explenations here.. :)


Jonathan


That is another problem with Wing Chun and I suppose the martial arts in general, and that is, as soon as you say something that no one has heard of, or knows anything about, you get the "I will bury my head in the sand" brigade, doing just that, and in mass, burying their heads and hoping that it will all go away and be over in a matter of time, so that they can lift up their heads again and lecture us on the virtues of modern cross training.:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

That is another problem with Wing Chun and I suppose the martial arts in general, and that is, as soon as you say something that no one has heard of, or knows anything about, you get the "I will bury my head in the sand" brigade, doing just that, and in mass, burying their heads and hoping that it will all go away and be over in a matter of time, so that they can lift up their heads again and lecture us on the virtues of modern cross training.:rolleyes:

Please show a demonstration of what you are talking about working on resisting opponents.

[HardWork8]

Anerlich and Knifefighter are completely right on these issues.

Well at least they are happy to think that they are right. If they are happy I am happy. And to be honest if it works for them that is fine, but they will in many cases be going against WC principles, but again, sometimes that is what modern cross training can entail.


The fact that so many people still think that wing chun is (or can be) the end-all-and-be-all is ludicrous.

As far as I am concerned Wing Chun is not the en-all-and-be-all of everything. My point is that there is a lot more in WC than people are being taught, so they compensate by cross training, sometimes in arts, that contradict Wing Chun principles.





Crosstraining just makes so much sense.

Practicing Wing Chun is cross training, but within unique principles and concepts. That is it is taught properly, and at least in some lineages.


But at least they'll have skills if it does go to the ground. Grappling skills. Not just wing chun striking skills.

The Siu Lam Wing Chun does have ground fighting using striking and GRAPPLING techniques, using WC principles and concepts.

[Nick Forrer]

EMIN's crappling?

Emins grappling is actually quite decent. He has a good open guard for example. Lots of hip movement and circling and recycling of the legs.

[Edmund]

That is another problem with Wing Chun and I suppose the martial arts in general, and that is, as soon as you say something that no one has heard of, or knows anything about, you get the "I will bury my head in the sand" brigade, doing just that, and in mass, burying their heads and hoping that it will all go away and be over in a matter of time, so that they can lift up their heads again and lecture us on the virtues of modern cross training.:rolleyes:

Hang on a sec. You haven't actually learnt any of your WC ground fighting yet by your own admission. And you aren't about to since you've moved away from your teacher who is the only source that you know of.

What the point of WC ground fighting being so useful if you have no access to learning it?

How is it burying their heads in the sand when there's almost no one teaching the thing and no way to see it?

I'd say most WC people would be mildly curious but it's a moot point if you can't see any.

[JPinAZ]

Not trolling you, JP....but I sure would like to see someone post some clips of this before I could take such claims seriously. There's infighting clinch skills and then there's infighting clinch skills. Before I believe that wing chun (or even weng chun) has the kinds of answers one would want to have against today's top mma fighters - particularly the moves/concepts they use - as opposed to being up against any particular "pro" fighter...

I have to see it first.

And by that I don't mean being invited to someone's seminar.

Somebody should just post something.

I know where you are coming from. I think that it's a tall order for ANYONE to post something up that works against the 'top fighters of the world' regardless the topic, don't you think? That would mean I would now have to go out, find someone like Randy Coture, bring in a camera and then go at it with him just to prove something. There's a reason I'm not in UFC rings, believe it or not, I admit I'm not THAT GOOD :)

But, as I stated elsewhere regarding this, I also only have just completed 30 or so hours of the material in 2 seminars. I still have to put the time in and gain the body karma before I put it to any kind of test at that level. I understand you are not trolling, but you are calling up a pretty tall order there!

BTW, what's wrong with being invited to a seminar? Again, if you remember, you even were invited to a seminar FREE, travel included!! If you were seriously even the slight bit interested, you would have given that some thought. While I am sure you aren't trying to troll, what's one to expect if you won't even meet someone a 1/4 of the way...

[JPinAZ]

When you say WC you are making such a general statement that the term isn't worth anything. You could be referring to a million different styles and variations. Some use the same principles and others are vastly different. Techniques that are more popular or that exist today that didn't in HK and China pose a obstacle for any TMA. Its not "real" to make black and white statements about WC.

Maybe you should say "You'd get MMA. IMO MY WC STYLE already has answers for a lot of this without having to resort to playing the other guys game."
that would put things into context. are you talking about EMIN's crappling?

hahaha, I hope you weren't trying to be serious in this post. I said what I meant. I didn't mean ALL WC, and I didn't say that. I simply meant Wing Chun. Of course this is coming from my own experience, so I can only speak from what I've learned. I thought this would be pretty obvious.

Ok, just for you, I'll reword is to say "IMO, from what I've seen of WC...." Better? :rolleyes:

Have anything to comment on besides scematics?

** sorry, I see Victor already covered this - thanks

[JPinAZ]

Please show a demonstration of what you are talking about working on resisting opponents.

While this wasn't directed at me, I'd be happy to. I just gotta get my WC dummy out of the corner he's hiding in so I can demonstrate.... T, where are you? :D;)

[Liddel]

My point is that there is a lot more in WC than people are being taught, so they compensate by cross training, sometimes in arts, that contradict Wing Chun principles.

Lets talk about this for a moment -

Give me an example of a technique/action you think would contradict VT principals and perhaps why you wouldnt want to use it because of the disconnect ?

Ill go first - My VT doesnt have ground fighting so i have to use another example, i dont like to comment on things i have little experience in....

IME the hook is a very useful punch. However early in my VT training i was aware it breaks certain concepts of VT.

Straight line and flying elbow principles.

This doesnt mean i dont use the hook, moreover it doesnt mean that there isnt a time and a place for its use that would be more effective than using a stright punch....IME you only understand this from sparring with other styles.

Moreover i can also apply my concepts of stright line and flying elbow principal to make the Boxing Hook more of a VT hook. Lets call it the best of both worlds :rolleyes:

My interpritation of the saying " The shortest distance between two points is a straight line" is more about taking the "straightest line possible" at any given time. I dont see it as meaning to take the strategy of ONLY using a straight line. IMO it isnt meant to be set in stone.

The amalgamation of the Boxing hook and my VT principals have made what we call the "Bannana Punch", which is now - my VT hook :)

Not only is the action more VT than when i first was shown the Boxing Hook - the timing and situations i use it are different.

This is me using the Kung Fu not the Kung Fu using me.

Your POV is an interesting one to me, cause i can use non VT actions with VT timing. I can use VT actions with Boxing Timing - set ups and combos etc.... there are many different sides to what aspects of behaviour make something VT IME.....

:cool:
DREW

[anerlich]

That is another problem with Wing Chun and I suppose the martial arts in general, and that is, as soon as you say something that no one has heard of, or knows anything about, you get the "I will bury my head in the sand" brigade, doing just that, and in mass, burying their heads and hoping that it will all go away and be over in a matter of time,

You mean like what happened when BJJ first came to notice outside Brazil?

If you're talking about this WC groundfighting you haven't learned yet, along with the practitioners of Incomplete Wing Chun (TM), you by your own admission don't know anything about it either, so any discussion on it with you is pointless.

My head ain't buried. I'd love to see and experience this stuff if it's what you claim it to be, but since even you haven't trained in it that would appear impossible.

Someone's got his head buried, but I'm not sure it's me ...


My point is that there is a lot more in WC than people are being taught, so they compensate by cross training, sometimes in arts, that contradict Wing Chun principles.


I don't "compensate". I practice multiple arts because they interest me. As you alluded yourself, I care more about what works than whether it adheres to Wing Chun principles, which as you said yourself ain't the be all and end all or necessarily superior to other MA's. Just give up this "WC principle police" crap, it's getting old.

And if you keep trying to imply that your WC is somehow better than mine, Vics, Edmunds, Nick's etc., you'd better explain HOW (using examples from what you actually know, not stuff your Sifu hasn'r deigned to share with you yet, if ever).

[HardWork8]

No you're telling it the way it isn't..

Oh yes I am.


]And by doing so, you are doing a disservice to the art because you are feeding the fantasy that will lead some naive newbies down the rosy path to getting pwned on the ground or in the clinch...

Perhaps you are the one feeding fantasies to people who will end up being jack of all trades and masters of none.


Please tell us who, what family/clan claims that WCK is a ground fighting art,

None that I know of. Here you are way ahead of me.


or addresses ground fighting..

Siu Lam Wing Chun, i.e. Shaolin Wing Chun which is a Mainland Chinese lineage. There probably are other clans and family styles who teach it as well, but I believe it will be based on the Shaolin Wing Chun for the most part and not Yip Man's - even if he did teach Bruce Lee for about 15 seconds.



Also please explain how, which WCK 'principles' apply when on the ground or in some basic grappling positions.

As stated before I am not at this level just yet, but I know enough to say that once you are on the ground and on your back you will, obviously not be able to use you leg to get your earth energy, however, you use your upper back area for that purpose. It takes practise to be able to dominate your opponents central line from this position using Chin na and to deliver telling strikes, ie with power to incapacitate.


It should be simple to tell or show us how your lineage addresses some basic grappling problems like..

When in a single collar tie with under hook

When in a double collar tie

When in a body lock

When in side control

When mounted

All when dealing with a trained grappler..

I will not be able to for the reason stated above. Sheesh, I wonder how often wrestlers are asked on how they would deal with a Wing Chun twisting throat punch in a streetfight situation?

[HardWork8]

I don't know...

Does HFY claim to be a ground fighting system?

I cannot speak to Weng Chun... Perhaps our resident Weng Chun guy can comment on their ground game.. IME WCK is not a ground fighitng system... But folks are free to prove me wrong, show us the WCK ground fighting in ground fighting venues..


Do you or anyone in this thread believe that the masters who created Wing Chun and others who created other kung fu styles, some of whom geniuses for sure, who lived during periods of history that their martial skill would dictate the difference between life and death, did not experience nor forsee a situation where a fight would go to the ground?

No Wing Chun is not a ground fighting system. Some lineages do however have ground fighting training. It is a fact. Another fact is that Yip Man did not teach this. Another fact is that in Mainland China there are at least 7 lineages of Wing Chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I know where you are coming from. I think that it's a tall order for ANYONE to post something up that works against the 'top fighters of the world' regardless the topic, don't you think? That would mean I would now have to go out, find someone like Randy Coture, bring in a camera and then go at it with him just to prove something. There's a reason I'm not in UFC rings, believe it or not, I admit I'm not THAT GOOD. (JP)


***Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, JP. I didn't mean that you (or anyone else) should go out and fight/spar a guy like Randy Couture and then post it. What I meant was that I'd like to see some vid posted wherein some wing chun "grappling" (or anti-grappling) is being used against a resisting opponent/sparring partner who himself is reasonably skilled in something like mma, bjj, judo, wrestling, Muay Thai clinch fighting, etc. So that we see something done in the standing clinch or against a skilled grapplers takedown attempt or on the ground.

And no, I'm not that interested in seeing it that I'd be willing to drive 6-7 hours each way to a seminar in a place like Rochester, NY. :)

[HardWork8]

I've read through your advice and see it to be lacking both experience and intellectual foundation. Thanks but no thanks.

I believe that you neither have the intelect nor the understanding of Shaolin Wing Chun to have made the above statement.:D




As we are in the event we are being taught the complete system.

Is "we" you and your ego?



IOW, you are wasting your time since WC is a complete system and you don't need to learn anything else.

You have missed the point, yet again. I am training in a relevant kung fu style. Plus, "complete" does not mean perfect, it never has, and it never will.



Try not to get that foot any deeper down that throat, boy.

Let me know when it starts hurting bad so that I can take my foot out. In the lineage of WC that I practise, we like putting our feet down people's throat, but only if they deserve it.:cool:



It's good you have your Sifu's blessing, though the fact you seem to need it to make decisions is something of a concern.

"Concern" yourself in your own choice of training. I need my sifus "blessing" because he is the one with the expert kung fu knowledge. So, it would make perfect sense to ask an expert on the subject if one was to train in kung fu, don't you think?




Now you're making me laugh. Just keep taking your Sifu's blue pills and remain a human heat source.

I believe the only one here taking pills is you and that is the famous "I don't understand it so let me criticize pill".

[anerlich]

Sheesh, I wonder how often wrestlers are asked on how they would deal with a Wing Chun twisting throat punch in a streetfight situation?

Not often, because they don't make unsubstantiated claims about what they can and cannot do which beg the sort of questions you are being asked.


I believe that you neither have the intelect nor the understanding of Shaolin Wing Chun to have made the above statement.

Your beliefs are difficult to take seriously. I don't understand much about Shaolin WC, and you are making me feel I wouldn't want to, but you are not exactly helping.


In the lineage of WC that I practise, we like putting our feet down people's throat, but only if they deserve it.

You deserve it.

Can you do that from the ground?

[Liddel]

Hardwork8....Its not rocket science bruva - Im sure Andrew understands just fine.

The difference is that many here are not married to the ideas you seem to be so confident on.

When you post as though you know what your talking about or like you have experience in what your writing about, when in actual fact you are commenting on things you have little understanding and training in (by your own admission) thats where problems in communication - break down....

When you start to realise there are people here with decades of experience in many different areas of fighting you may start to listen more.....if your smart.

DREW
:o

[HardWork8]

You mean like what happened when BJJ first came to notice outside Brazil?

More or less, except that Bjj is a practical and dangerous martial art in the ring/cage/competition, wether it is as good when it comes to street fighting will only be revealed by its longevity, just as WC and kung fu in general has proved their effectiveness for more than a thousand years.


If you're talking about this WC groundfighting you haven't learned yet,

The fact that I haven't learnt it yet does not mean that it does not exist, just as the fact that a supposed WC practitioner such as yourself has ABSOLUTELY no idea about this aspect of Wing Chun training does not mean that it is non-existant.



along with the practitioners of Incomplete Wing Chun (TM), you by your own admission don't know anything about it either, so any discussion on it with you is pointless.

I know that it exists. I don't know where or how you practice your Wing Chun, but in my school we learn things stage by stage. I hope this statement has not caused you a heart attack, but it is true.


My head ain't buried. I'd love to see and experience this stuff if it's what you claim it to be,

I don't believe that my sifu is planning any trips to your part of the world yet, eventhough he is planning a seminar in London in the early part of next year. However, you may find it easier to experience it if you look for it. In your part of the world there is a big Chinese community. Remember them? They are the ones who created kung fu.


but since even you haven't trained in it that would appear impossible.

Don't tell me that if I had trained the WC grappling, you would have asked me to come all the way to Australia to demonstrate it to you.


Someone's got his head buried, but I'm not sure it's me ...

I believe it not to be you as well. However, I am not so sure about your ego though.


I don't "compensate". I practice multiple arts because they interest me.

But you do compensate and that is because you believe your WC training to be lacking in certain departments, and if so, and if you do not have access to a more complete WC training, then fair enough.


As you alluded yourself, I care more about what works than whether it adheres to Wing Chun principles, which as you said yourself ain't the be all and end all or necessarily superior to other MA's.

All I am saying is if you train arts that contradict the WC principles then your WC becomes something else. However, if it works for you then that is just fine, but it may make your Wing Chun none-existant for the most part, as far as the essence of the art is concerned.



Just give up this "WC principle police" crap, it's getting old.

If you don't understand the signigicance of the principles in Wing Chun then you do not understand the art.


And if you keep trying to imply that your WC is somehow better than mine, Vics, Edmunds, Nick's etc., you'd better explain HOW (using examples from what you actually know,

All that I can say is that there seem to be more punching techniques and kicking techniques than the Yip Man lineages. There is heavy emphasis on qi gong, chin na and (Shaolin style) iron palm training as well. Typically, it takes about 8 years to complete the system. There are 3 weapons, throwing darts being the third one. And of course, there is the grappling and ground fighting.

You decide if it is better or worse than what you practise.


not stuff your Sifu hasn'r deigned to share with you yet, if ever).

As I mentioned before, in my school we use this very "strange" system of training where you progress from one stage to another, but only if you have achieved acceptable standards at the previous stage. This may sound out of this world to cross trainer geniuses like yourself, who learn everything at the same time, but this is how the rest of us mortals are taught.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Any vids you could post of your sifu, HardWork?

[HardWork8]

Not often, because they don't make unsubstantiated claims about what they can and cannot do which beg the sort of questions you are being asked.

Then, let me ask something that I asked another poster, do you believe that the masters involved in the creation of Wing Chun as well as other major kung fu styles, did not experience nor for see a fight going to the ground? Remembering that wrestling has been around in China since before kung fu.


Your beliefs are difficult to take seriously.

Consider my question and it may not be difficult, even for you, to take it seriously.


I don't understand much about Shaolin WC,

I've gathered that already. Look for it throughout the net and you may come up with some interesting info, eventhough it is no guarantee. I can tell you though, we should have an official web site of the system up soon and I will post the address here for you guys, that is if it is allowed by the moderators.




but you are not exactly helping.

What are you talking about? I have been trying to help you since we first started this discussion.






You deserve it.

Don't even think about trying that one on me and putting your foot down my throat, because I must warn you, my central line is very well protected. You see, unlike you, I do stick to my Wing Chun principles.:D


Can you do that from the ground?

I don't know yet, because, as you know I am not at my ground fighting stage of training. I'll just have to be patient or otherwise if I lose my patience I may hurry things up by cross training in Bangladeshi wrestling and mix a little Tae Kwon do with it, because as you know "there are not enough kicking techniques in Wing Chun" either.

[HardWork8]

Any vids you could post of your sifu, HardWork?

Not really. He is however preparing a website that will undoubtfully give more info on the lineage. When the site goes on air, I will post the address for you guys to have a look at.

Also, if he does his seminar in London (not yet confirmed), early next year, he may agree for it to be videoed, in which case it will be a source of reference.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think it would be very logical to assume that Many kung fu "masters" did not think that the fight would go to the ground precisely because they were devising techniques to keep it standing (at least so that they themselves would remain standing).

They didn't want it to go there.

And how efficient were the respective methods, strategies, techniques and fighting principles they used to keep it standing is indeed the question.

And I, for one, am sceptical about just how efficient it all was.

Or how efficient Chinese grappling systems like Shai Juao really really are vs. other non-Chinese grappling and mma systems.

I think it's also logical to assume that many such "masters" decided to specialize in striking to the near exclusion (or perhaps to the total exclusion) of actual groundfighting simply because they didn't have the necessary time and training/learning opportunites to incorporate "all of that" into their respective fighting systems.

[HardWork8]

I think it would be very logical to assume that Many kung fu "masters" did not think that the fight would go to the ground precisely because they were devising techniques to keep it standing (at least so that they themselves would remain standing).

They lived in times of turmoil when life was cheap. Many of these masters, especially the ones that founded major kung fu styles were geniuses. Do you think that they would leave something so obvious as ground fighting out of their arsenal? I for one don't and that is because there is GROUND FIGHTING IN KUNG FU and not just in Wing Chun but in some northern mantis lineages, monkey style and at least in one of the tiger styles among others.


They didn't want it to go there.

Most people don't wan't it to go there either, but the reality, to which some of us are exposed even as kids, is that lots of times it does go there, and as a result provisions are taken just in case. Even my Wing Chun teacher says that it shouldn't go there (to the ground), if you are a good striker.


And how efficient were the respective methods, strategies, techniques and fighting principles they used to keep it standing is indeed the question.

Not for me, most of them have survived wars, revolutions, etc. for some say thousands of years.


Or how efficient Chinese grappling systems like Shai Juao really really are vs. other non-Chinese grappling and mma systems.

Shui Show has also stood the test of time.


I think it's also logical to assume that many such "masters" decided to specialize in striking to the near exclusion (or perhaps to the total exclusion) of actual groundfighting simply because they didn't have the necessary time and training/learning opportunites to incorporate "all of that" into their respective fighting systems.

To become a master in any kung fu style will usually take decades of practice. One of the reasons for studying kung fu in the old days was to be able to fight and defend your self against deadly force. Deadly force can come to you while standing or while you are on the ground. Why study a system for decades and then end up leaving yourself so vulnerable to wrestling techniques, in a land where wrestling was around even before kung fu?

Having made the above statement I will say that there are however kung fu styles that do not have ground fighting training, but at least some of them compensate for that with a lethal arsenal of striking techniques, backed up by effective iron palm training and Chin na practice. However, if these arts are not practiced properly then they will be as useless in ground situations as a lot of the Wing Chun around today.

[unkokusai]

wether it is as good when it comes to street fighting will only be revealed by its longevity, just as WC and kung fu in general has proved their effectiveness for more than a thousand years..



Objection! Illogical.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Many of these masters, especially the ones that founded major kung fu styles were geniuses." (HardWorK)


***THIS IS A GIANT ASSUMPTION on your part. You assume such a thing. But you don't know it to be true as an actual fact. And furthermore, genius does not necessarily mean perfection. Or completion. What about western boxing? Clearly an "ingenious" fighting method. But it doesn't include wrestling/grappling on the ground - now does it?

And as for Chinese "surviving" deadly situations for thousands of years due to their kung fu - how'd that work out for them in the early 1900's during the boxer rebellion?

No matter how "ingenious" something is at any given moment in time - it won't defy evolution and the march of time. Something better and more encompassing is always bound to come along sooner or later.

.........................................

"Do you think that they would leave something so obvious as ground fighting out of their arsenal?" (HW)

See the above. The answer is YES, they could quite easily have left groundfighting out of their system.

And while it's true that many northen Chinese kung fu systems may include some groundfighting technique - how do you know how good it is - or how extensive?

You don't.

Again, you're making a giant assumption without much evidence to back it up. Hardly any evidence at all, in fact.

[LoneTiger108]

Seems to be Ip Man versus China as well as the rest of the World eh! Hardwork8??

I have only one question for our current 'Shaolin' disciple, can you at least 'name' your Sifu and where you train? This would be useful to anyone wishing to research your claims.

From my reading Shaolin Weng Chun claims a Jee Shim connection and repels any discussion on even the 'existence' of Ng Mui or even Wing Chun herself, which I find interesting yet not 'new'. And from what you have described as far as 'stages' and 'ways' to train we have very similar experiences. I would guess that these 'stages' you talk of are related to 'Cha'an Buddhism', naturally, and it would be interesting to learn of how we can all benefit from this knowledge taking into consideration that the 'Cha'an' readings I have seen would never promote any type of Fighting.

And just to comment on your apparent disdain for the Ip Man Family, or shall I say 'lack of understanding' of your own place in this 'Big Picture'. It was Ip Man, like it or not, who was 'selected' to propogate Wing Chun to the Western World.

Most, if not all Western(Foreign) practitioners today can connect themselves to this family one way or another. If you know anything about Martial Conduct I would have thought you would show more 'respect' toward your elders, as as far as I'm aware Shaolin Weng Chun has really only just entered the market place. In comparison, represtentatives of Ip Man have been teaching Wing Chun across the globe since as early as the 1950's!

By trying to 'put down' or 'restrict' a Family style by even saying it has this or that, or not this or that, especially if you have little or no training in it, is just ludicrous! Albeit Shaolin Weng Chun may be able to help to promote our connection to the temples, it must stand 'with' the Ip Family as it is here that the true History still exists and without it you are just trying to erase everybody that has learnt from this source in Hong Kong...

...and that, I'm afraid, is just too 'China-like' and we have all seen how they have tried to alter their own History at times to suit themselves.

[YungChun]

They lived in times of turmoil when life was cheap. Many of these masters, especially the ones that founded major kung fu styles were geniuses. Do you think that they would leave something so obvious as ground fighting out of their arsenal? I for one don't and that is because there is GROUND FIGHTING IN KUNG FU and not just in Wing Chun but in some northern mantis lineages, monkey style and at least in one of the tiger styles among others.

It doesn't matter what you "think" because you are only living in a dream world where *your* "reality" is determined by what you are told is real. The dogma or IOW what "Sifu says" trumps all other facts and reality--I know Santa is real because my Daddy said so--is how this sounds to most folks.and most see this as sad because we are not talking about Santa we're talking about combative training for adults.. But this isn't unusual for noobs who have had their first good dose of programming.. Walk on...

The evidence which contradicts your position is all over the net, all over the world and also held in the experiences of most of the long time WCK people here.. In the face of such over whelming evidence to the contrary you still manage to convice yourself that you're right because your teacher says so, or because you prefer to beleive this garbage no matter how hard reality stares you in the face.. All this despite the fact that you don't even understand what your doing yet, which means you really don't have the slightest idea if it works or not, or even what "works" actually means.. It will be many years, apparently before this kind of logical/critical thinking will work it's way into your clouded and misguided head, if it ever does..

In the mean time consider this:

WCK is a simplified and very good standup system, it wasn’t intended to do more.. Just like a stealth fighter is good at what it does, it does not carry any offensive weapons for use in the air.. Well they certainly knew that other planes have these weapons, cannons, missiles, etc and yet the stealth fighter has none of them—why not?

Because it specializes…As do many weapons.. Few weapons that are really good ‘do it all’ they do one or two things very well and that’s it..

But getting back to your dream…

Whether or not you think WCK does X, it does what it does.. In the Ip Man lineage and at his school, there was no ground fighting, no crappling, no anti this or ground the other thing.. No matter how much you theorize about who knew what and what was what so many years ago it doesn't change that..

So I'll make a prediction:

We will never, EVER see you or your Sifu applying this stuff against a fully resisting decent grappler.. NEVER.. EVER... Why not? Because it’s all complete BS..

Now if I'm wrong we will see it used FOR REAL.. BUT if we don't ever see it used FOR REAL then this alone is tanamount to proof that it's completely bogus--and the clock is ticking...

And until you see it or someone else does it simply doesn't exist it's all a dream, a fantasy, a product that you have been sold, and one that may well result in you or others learning the truth the hard way..

Hey and that's okay... Most of us will still be here if and when your head clears and you manage to move beyond noob status...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its safe to say and logical to assume that no one ever developed or created a system of combat that was useless or ineffective during a time when MA were being used regualry.

That said, don't ever ASSume that what you do today is what was done and HOW it was done in the past.

Also, one needs to realize that many systems were "specialist systems" and as such didn't address all facets of combat because it wasn't their job to do so, it was a given that people would look for and train in what was lacking in their core art.

[JPinAZ]

Not really. He is however preparing a website that will undoubtfully give more info on the lineage. When the site goes on air, I will post the address for you guys to have a look at.

Also, if he does his seminar in London (not yet confirmed), early next year, he may agree for it to be videoed, in which case it will be a source of reference.

Not trolling here. In case I missed it, what is your sifu's name and where in Brazil does he teach?

[HardWork8]

Objection! Illogical.

When a style or a group of related styles of fighting survive throughout centuries, especially in a country such as China, which has had its fair share of turmoils, it is LOGICAL to assume that they serve their purpose, which among other things, is to enable their exponents to protect themselves.

Any OBJECTIONS on your part may be opinion based.

[YungChun]

I would guess that these 'stages' you talk of are related to 'Cha'an Buddhism', naturally, and it would be interesting to learn of how we can all benefit from this knowledge taking into consideration that the 'Cha'an' readings I have seen would never promote any type of Fighting.

Most all WCK has progressive learning.. Cha'an is another matter...


It was Ip Man, like it or not, who was 'selected' to propogate Wing Chun to the Western World.

WOW!

Exactly who do you think selected Ip Man for the glorious honor of passing along his beloved WCK to the Gwai Lo...?

Perhaps you could talk about some of his students from the West of non Chinese/Asian decent.. :o

And what a fascinating method he had of disseminating his knowledge—that insured all but utter chaos among the follows to come in the West. ... LMAO..

BTW..

If anyone around here is looking for a real money making opportunity I am selling shares in several of the Tunnels in the local Metro area.. Two of note are the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels.. Great investments and guaranteed to reap high profits with profit sharing available from revenue generated via tolls and traffic tickets to it's millions of weekly users..

If interested email me and I'll tell you how much the shares are and where to send the money.... :rolleyes::eek::cool::D:p:o

[LoneTiger108]

Exactly who do you think selected Ip Man for the glorious honor of passing along his beloved WCK to the Gwai Lo...?

Perhaps you could talk about some of his students from the West of non Chinese/Asian decent.. :o

And what a fascinating method he had of disseminating his knowledge—that insured all but utter chaos among the follows to come in the West. ... LMAO..

Sheesh! Sometime I do worry about people reading ability lol!

Did I say that Ip Man taught the Gweilo?? Mmmmmm, lets read that back shall we...

It was Ip Man, like it or not, who was 'selected' to propogate Wing Chun to the Western World.

Do I have to teach you English now too?? I hope not! And if you want to know how Ip Mans seniors were (and some still are!) then I suggest you do some more research yourself, as you obviously have had no connection with this Family (or you would know this!) or maybe your Wing Chun Sifu just didn't know either.

The chaos in the West you speak of is a 'mystery to me' I'm afraid! I know many elder practitioners in the UK and have heard all sorts of stories about different branches but I have yet to feel that I was not taught Wing Chun, diseminated or not, I've been involved long enough to have some confidence in my heritage.

Its a shame that so many do not feel this, as our time is coming around again it seems...

[LoneTiger108]

you obviously have had no connection with this Family (or you would know this!) or maybe your Wing Chun Sifu just didn't know either.

Actually, looking at your profile, I have to apologize! Moy Yat knew Ip Mans seniors, and you obviously have a connection to the Ip Family. So, maybe the question why you don't know this is for you to ponder.

Did Moy Yat not like you or something?

[YungChun]

Sheesh! Sometime I do worry about people reading ability lol!

Did I say that Ip Man taught the Gweilo?? Mmmmmm, lets read that back shall we...

It was Ip Man, like it or not, who was 'selected' to propogate Wing Chun to the Western World.

Yes teach me how clueless you are and in the mean time I'll teach you spelling... The word is propagate..

And the definition which best fits this example:

To spread from person to person; to extend the knowledge
of; to originate and spread; to carry from place to place;
to disseminate; as, to propagate a story or report; to
propagate the Christian religion.


The problem is that he never taught anyone from the "Western World" which, by definition, would not make him the person or persons who did the propagating—see how that works?

How do you think Ip felt about teaching those not from Chinese decent?

And how do you *think* he was "chosen" and by whom?

Most folks out there doing WCK aren’t.. Thus the start of what is complete chaos along with not appointing a successor or naming qualified teachers or even remaining consistent with the material he passed, along with any number of other little doo dads that clearly show his intent was not of one coming from "an honor", but rather one coming from reluctance.

[unkokusai]

When a style or a group of related styles of fighting survive throughout centuries, it is LOGICAL to assume that they serve their purpose, which among other things, is to enable their exponents to protect themselves.



Are you honestly this stupid?

[HardWork8]

It doesn't matter what you "think" because you are only living in a dream world where *your* "reality" is determined by what you are told is real.

You are making assumptions to replace your lack of knowledge in this particular area, when your own reality is dictated by what you have 'seen', which is by enlarge Wing Chun as taught by Yip Man and some of his disciples a lot of whom are great at what they do, but what they do is limited by what Yip Man brought over from China, or at least what he taught.

No one is saying that HK Wing Chun is bad. What I am saying is that there seem to be elements missing that are present in at least some Mainland lineages. If you have not been exposed to this, then that is not your fault. However, if you think that just because you have not seen them other techniques don't exist and anyone claiming that is talkin BS then that is just being ignorant.


The dogma or IOW what "Sifu says" trumps all other facts and reality--I know Santa is real because my Daddy said so--is how this sounds to most folks.and most see this as sad because we are not talking about Santa we're talking about combative training for adults.. But this isn't unusual for noobs who have had their first good dose of programming.. Walk on...

Again, you are making assumptions that an intelligent person wouldn't make, but then.....


The evidence which contradicts your position is all over the net, all over the world and also held in the experiences of most of the long time WCK people here.. In the face of such over whelming evidence to the contrary you still manage to convice yourself that you're right because your teacher says so, or because you prefer to beleive this garbage no matter how hard reality stares you in the face.. All this despite the fact that you don't even understand what your doing yet, which means you really don't have the slightest idea if it works or not, or even what "works" actually means.. It will be many years, apparently before this kind of logical/critical thinking will work it's way into your clouded and misguided head, if it ever does..

More assumptions. If you really had a grasp of WC principles and their potential, then we would not be having this discussion.


WCK is a simplified and very good standup system, it wasn’t intended to do more.

The problem may be that a lot, NOT ALL, of the Wing Chun is too simplified and this is happening even today, when some "sifus" take out and add techniques to make it "more practicale" for today's world. What they are actually doing is standardizing an art which was never meant to be standardized and all for the sake of making it money making friendly. WAKE UP, just Wing Chun on its own is am multi million dollar business.


Just like a stealth fighter is good at what it does, it does not carry any offensive weapons for use in the air.. Well they certainly knew that other planes have these weapons, cannons, missiles, etc and yet the stealth fighter has none of them—why not?

Because its designers are modern cross trainers I suppose.:D


Because it specializes…As do many weapons.. Few weapons that are really good ‘do it all’ they do one or two things very well and that’s it..

That was a really bad example. It really was.


But getting back to your dream…

Whether or not you think WCK does X, it does what it does.. In the Ip Man lineage and at his school, there was no ground fighting, no crappling, no anti this or ground the other thing.. No matter how much you theorize about who knew what and what was what so many years ago it doesn't change that..

And that is exactly your problem. You have been exposed to mainly the Yip Man lineage, just like most of the Western World and as a result that is your point of reference. And yes, the Yip Man lineage is great for stand up fighting but it lacks ground fighting training. Does my "dream" make more sense now.


So I'll make a prediction:

Making predictions is something I was never taught in the Wing Chun school. You definitely have one up on me there. Let me know of any seminars your sifu organizes. Maybe I can cross train in the art of "predicting about people I know nothing about and Wing Chun lineages I have not been exposed to".


We will never, EVER see you or your Sifu applying this stuff against a fully resisting decent grappler.. NEVER.. EVER... Why not? Because it’s all complete BS..

Yet more ignorant assumptions.


Now if I'm wrong we will see it used FOR REAL..

let me save you a lot of time by saying that you ARE wrong.


BUT if we don't ever see it used FOR REAL then this alone is tanamount to proof that it's completely bogus--and the clock is ticking...

Who knows, you might see it sooner than you think.


And until you see it or someone else does it simply doesn't exist it's all a dream, a fantasy, a product that you have been sold, and one that may well result in you or others learning the truth the hard way..

I think that you mis understand, I said I haven't done it because I am not at that stage of training, but I have seen it done by sifu with some seniors.


Hey and that's okay... Most of us will still be here if and when your head clears and you manage to move beyond noob status...

The problem and the question is wether I or my great grand children or indeed the planet earth, will be around when YOUR head clears up.

[HardWork8]

Are you honestly this stupid?


Well I am working my stupidity level to reach yours, but I don't think I can achieve it in this life time. But thank you for your "intelligent" input. It is appreciated.

[unkokusai]

Ok, so you have absolutely no grasp of logic whatsoever. Got it. Good luck.

[YungChun]

You are making assumptions to replace your lack of knowledge in this particular area, when your own reality is dictated by what you have 'seen', which is by enlarge Wing Chun as taught by Yip Man and some of his disciples a lot of whom are great at what they do, but what they do is limited by what Yip Man brought over from China, or at least what he taught.

{snip}



You're blithering and making silly noises.... Doing this does not advance your position and attitudes.. Attitudes folks have seen for years in noobs..

How old are you?

Try to address the points made or support your statements... Any will do.. If you can't then you should re-think why you posted these things in the first place..

Typing more "stuff" does not make you more convincing unless you have something to say…

[forever young]

blah, blah, blah, im gonna bore you all to death with my cultish and blatantly wrong attitude. further more you are all crap and only ME - MY SIFU - AND MY LINEAGE are any good, the rest of you mugs have spent years learning crap from d1ckheads.......we are the most complete system evva and are the d34dly on teh str33ts and can out grapple grapplers, out kick kickers and out create GOD

congratulations u suck and lose at life......

please press the red x in the corner
kthnxbye

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again, HardWork...

The fact that Weng Chun and some other non-Hong Kong based wing chun systems, as well as some other northern Chinese kung fu styles may include various elements of stand up grappling and groundfighting does NOT, of and by itself...

mean anything! :rolleyes:

The relevant questions are:

1) To what extent do these systems utilize grappling?

2) How good are these grappling methodologies compared to other grappling arts like judo, wrestling, Bjj, Japanese jiu jitsu, sambo, etc?

AND ONCE AGAIN I'M GOING TO TELL YOU THAT YOU'VE PROVIDED ZERO EVIDENCE ON EITHER QUESTION.

So why should anyone around here take your assertions seriously? :confused:

I know I don't.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its a lot easier to say/make more sense that:

" We here at*insert token WC/WT/VT organization*saw that our system of WC/VT/WT lacked the skills needed to effectively deal with a well trained grappling attack, so we created a subprogram to our current WC/VT/WT curriculum in which we deal with that issue, we do this by brining in a trained grappler and develop an "anti/counter/pick your poison grappling" program that is then applied to our system of WC/WT/VT.
This is then pressure tested in a MMA environment and adjustments are made accordingly.
All the while never forgetting that we are WC/VT/WT practioners and not grappler."

:D

[HardWork8]

congratulations u suck and lose at life......

please press the red x in the corner
kthnxbye


I did not post that. It was probably a "Wise guy" forum member, who did not have anything to ad to the discussion.

I hope whoever the forum moderator will take care of this.

[anerlich]

Well I am working my stupidity level to reach yours, but I don't think I can achieve it in this life time.

Don't sell yourself short. I think you're there already.

[HardWork8]

Again, HardWork...

The fact that Weng Chun and some other non-Hong Kong based wing chun systems, as well as some other northern Chinese kung fu styles may include various elements of stand up grappling and groundfighting does NOT, of and by itself...

mean anything! :rolleyes:

I don't believe that you just made that statement. As even you may know, how good an art is, is dependent on who is doing it.


The relevant questions are:

The relevant question is, have you been reading my posts?


1) To what extent do these systems utilize grappling?

Wing Chun ground fighting in my school is not just grappling it is a mixture of grappling and striking.


2) How good are these grappling methodologies compared to other grappling arts like judo, wrestling, Bjj, Japanese jiu jitsu, sambo, etc?

Again, they are not only grappling. You should really read the posts you so readily criticize. How good they are depends as usual on what the exponent puts into it.


AND ONCE AGAIN I'M GOING TO TELL YOU THAT YOU'VE PROVIDED ZERO EVIDENCE ON EITHER QUESTION.

You can say what you want. The evidence is there all around you, and not just in Wing Chun, but other traditional kung fu styles. Do some research.


So why should anyone around here take your assertions seriously? :confused:

I know I don't. And you wouldn't. People like you never do.

I have provided the information. Do with it what you will.

[HardWork8]

Don't sell yourself short. I think you're there already.

....Tell me, how many lifetimes do I need to get to your level of stupidity?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ah yes, the old "it depends on who's doing it argument". :rolleyes:

Well I'll tell ya' what! I don't care who does aikido, for instance. Could be the greatest athlete/awesome skills/meanest sob around...

He'll still get owned by a highly skilled fighter in any of the grappling styles we've been talking about.

Because aikido all by itself is just too limited. And you've provided no evidence whatsoever that your wing chun, or any wing chun, or any northern style's grappling technique could handle the other arts we've talking about. No evidence about the extent to which these arts have efficient and enough grappling technique.

And also: So you've been mixing grappling with striking, have you?

Gee, really? :rolleyes:

Wow! I never thought of that before. :cool:

Yeah, that changes everything. :p

You definitely are a young newbie with a lot to learn.

And you get no more of my time on this subject. I've got better things to do.

[anerlich]

Just to present some facts about YMWC (or William Cheung's version, TWC, at least):

Kum Na (groundfighting) is present in the system. There are a (small) number of methods of engaging the ground to minimise trauma and keep defense in place.

The combat methods are mainly to do with fighting a standing opponent from the ground, striking or taking them down so that one can regain their feet ASAP. The legs are the primary weapons; The centreline principle applies on the ground. BTW, BJJ also has a centreline principle for fighting from the guard which has some similarity. Keeping the legs between the other guy and you apples to TWC as well as BJJ, and also to that well known but oft ignored style, common sense.

You strike with the feet to various targets, and have various leg entanglements and takedowns (called "sweeps" in some other styles). There are some last ditch tactics if the guy gets past your legs, but basically you are in deep trouble if that happens and want to get to a better position if at all possible. Little time is spent on submission holds or positional control on the ground, because you want to get off it.

TWC has various throws, some obvious like the modified osotogari in the dummy set, some less so.There are also chi na techniques, both inside and outside the sets. But most are done standing, getting legs tied up with armbars and omoplatas goes against the philosophy of remaining standing and mobile.

There is also a sixteen kick set on the dummy, and other kicks with which non WCers would be more familiar with are also employed. Kicking is emphasised pretty heavily in my instructor's academy.

Most instructors believe in a staged curriculum. Groundfighting is introduced reasonably early because, well, you might need it. You're more likely to fall over at the start of your training than at an advanced level, and that's when you need those tools.

My instructor does the throwing darts.

It might lead to a more useful discussion if posters went into details of what they do rather than vague hints which lead only to challenge, and avoid trying to point out what they assume (incorrectly) other lineages do or don't do.

Of course, if you want to continue the b!tchfest, I'm up for that.

[anerlich]

Tell me, how many lifetimes do I need to get to your level of stupidity?

You'd have to raise your IQ out of single to triple figures. Not knowing you, your carers, or your therapist, I couldn't really say whether it's possible and if so how long it might take.

[JPinAZ]

It might lead to a more useful discussion if posters went into details of what they do rather than vague hints which lead only to challenge, and avoid trying to point out what they assume (incorrectly) other lineages do or don't do.

Of course, if you want to continue the b!tchfest, I'm up for that.

I tried this, and besides the typical "lets see the videos" comment, no one seemed interested at all in knowing anything. No 'real' questions. I'm starting to think this whole thread, as well as forum is a waste of time...

[anerlich]

JP,

You're probably right. I don't see the forum as being much more than a place to waste time. Sometimes it's a pleasant waste, though.

[Liddel]

It was Ip Man, like it or not, who was 'selected' to propogate Wing Chun to the Western World.


This sums up the state of this thread - its gone to the dogs. Clulesss man.

DREW
:cool:

[anerlich]

Yip Man did teach at least one Westerner directly. Rolf Clausznitzer, who currently teaches in Perth, AUS IIRC. He has posted here very sparingly in the past.

I think it was more YM's students who saw the huge potential market for their stuff in the West. YM himself was not a fan of the West or its denizens.

If YM was "selected" to propogate [sic] Wing Chun, he made a near complete balls up of it.

[Liddel]

Theres always an exception to the rule IMO, but id expect that would be a one off and that he handed over a large sum of money -
its well known Ip was not fond of sharing what he considered a chinesse 'gem' with non chinesse.

This is the main reason im told Bruce lee wasnt taught directly - he was considered a half cast.

Told to me by a man who knew them both...well.

[k gledhill]

balls up....you can say that again...

[YungChun]

Yip Man did teach at least one Westerner directly. Rolf Clausznitzer
I don't think so..

http://www.wingchun.com/yipline.html

Rolf Clausnitzer appears to be of WSL lineage..

[Liddel]

3rd name under Lok Yiu - they spelt my Sifu's name wrong... :mad:

That site will bear the full brunt of me ..........doing nothing.

:o

[Vajramusti]

Rolf learned from Ip Man and WSL and also worked out with Andrew Williams in the WSL line.
He and Greco Wong were the authors of one of the very first if not the first wing chun book in English.

joy chaudhuri

[YungChun]

Rolf learned from Ip Man and WSL
Could be, but he certainly was not a student under Ip.. Personally, I would be surprised if Ip really 'taught' him anything--based on what I know about Ip and his feelings about teaching non Chinese/Asians...And the way Ip conducted his teaching or "unteaching" something based on how he felt about you—those not in the know wouldn’t/didn’t learn more than a drop from him, regardless of appearances..

[LoneTiger108]

Yes teach me how clueless you are and in the mean time I'll teach you spelling... The word is propagate..

And the definition which best fits this example:

To spread from person to person; to extend the knowledge
of; to originate and spread; to carry from place to place;
to disseminate; as, to propagate a story or report; to
propagate the Christian religion.


The problem is that he never taught anyone from the "Western World" which, by definition, would not make him the person or persons who did the propagating—see how that works?

I'll tell you the problem: Still you prove yourself to be unable to read! Thanks for the spelling correction though, taken on the chin as normal, but it's a shame you feel the need to moan so much about minor things when it's obvious you still didn't read what I wrote. A cool diversion from the thread yet again by someone who doesn't want to learn or even listen. Shame.

Question: Where in your dictionary explanation is the word 'teach' used? And that's my point, I never meant to imply that Ip Man taught any foreigners (although it looks as though some have heard different here as Vajramusti has proven yet again).

AND about this 'selected' comment, are you all really missing my point here? Especially Drew (I was surprised at your comment lol!) Let me ask you a few questions then like, who was Bruce Lee? What affect did his 'fame' have on Ip Man? Who do you know actually witnessed this turbulent time in Hong Kong? Who was in the Wing Chun family meetings to decide what to do? And please don't bother telling me that I'm only speculating and meetings didn't happen lmao!

I feel that even now the students who were around then have not openly shared their memories to us westerners, and I also can't believe that all their HK students are kept in the dark. Racism does still exist, but it runs both ways here. To me, Ip Man was the 'front man' for a larger group of people and it is ultimately their joint responsibility to fix the mess so many of you feel Ip Man constructed! I have never believed that he is soley responsible, considering that he died in 1973. It is the combination of many other factors, one being that far too few early non-chinese students even 'cared' for the language of Wing Chun and I still find these prejudices today just because I learnt a few 'lines'.

I have to say that this thread seems to have run its course as nobody really wants to know if we have grappling or not. It just doesn't seem to matter to most! And comments like 'Kum Na' translates as 'groundfighting' are totally laughable (sorry anerlich) and shows the average user of this forum has never taken their language seriously. And magical Masters who train the 'darts' should make us all believe he 'knows his stuff'. Hilarious! If you want my true insight here, I will say something like, 'why throw a stupid little dart when your knife flies further and hits harder?'

A lot of growing up is required here, as this attitude towards newcomers on this forum is actually quite boring and very damaging to Wing Chun worldwide.

[YungChun]

A lot of growing up is required here, as this attitude towards newcomers on this forum is actually quite boring and very damaging to Wing Chun worldwide.

Yeah especially if the goal is to create an army of know-nothing WCK theoreticians, whose total "knowledge" is based on fantasy, speculation and nameless, nobody WCK "teachers" who make unsupported bombastic claims that have never been proven and never will be.. (tick, tick)

More power to the WCK goof ball brigade.. Woooooohoooo! :eek::rolleyes::p

[LoneTiger108]

More power to the WCK goof ball brigade.. Woooooohoooo! :eek::rolleyes::p

I'm not advocating this Goof Ball Brigade you seem so keen on YungChun, I just don't like the way some people are so disregarded on this forum by people who obviously have some hang-up about their own learning.

Still, I see you also made the effort to not even attempt to answer any of my questions...

[tjwingchun]

Sifu Alan Lamb is highly recommended:

http://www.alanlambwingchun.com/


Still, I see you also made the effort to not even attempt to answer any of my questions...

Been offline for some time and otherwise occupied, so apart from nice to see my first instructors name mentioned, what were the questions you asked to save me wading through past pages lol and I will endeavour to answer them.

[Tom Kagan]

Rolf learned from Ip Man...


Not according to Rolf.

[YungChun]

Still, I see you also made the effort to not even attempt to answer any of my questions...



AND about this 'selected' comment, are you all really missing my point here? Especially Drew (I was surprised at your comment lol!) Let me ask you a few questions then like, who was Bruce Lee? What affect did his 'fame' have on Ip Man? Who do you know actually witnessed this turbulent time in Hong Kong? Who was in the Wing Chun family meetings to decide what to do? And please don't bother telling me that I'm only speculating and meetings didn't happen lmao!

Who was Bruce Lee? WTF?

My Si Bak.. :rolleyes::cool:

These questions are completely inane and besides I don't think you have addressed any of the many counter points made either..

I wasn't just referring to what I quoted but rather everything you wrote..

I don't think you have a clue about reality, WCK or how the two go together--then again you have a lot of company..

[YungChun]

Not according to Rolf.
Not surprising in the least.. :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

I defer to Rolf on Rolf. Where has he said so? He was not a private student but my impression was that he was in some of Ip Man's regular classes which were often taught by a senior students. Rolf also if memory serves was in Bruce Lee's corner in a boxing match.

Rolf has posted on some of this and was going to work on his recollections.He sometimes posts here and I hope he does again.

Of course Ip man had his likes and dislikes- with Chinese folks too. BTW Bruce Lee was also of mixed
Chinese-European(mother's side) ancestry.

joy chaudhuri

[CFT]

Not surprising in the least.. :rolleyes:Jim, I don't understand your position here, limitations of the Internet and all that. David Peterson has posted either here or elsewhere that Rolf Clausnitzer was an early foreign student of WSL.

Here we go: http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=469


Rolf trained with my Sifu in 1964 and was his very first non-Chinese student. As he trained so long ago, many of the well known Sifu of the later generation are not familiar with Rolf.

[YungChun]

Jim, I don't understand your position here, limitations of the Internet and all that. David Peterson has posted either here or elsewhere that Rolf Clausnitzer was an early foreign student of WSL.
That link doesn't work..

Who said he wasn't a student of WSL?????????

[Tom Kagan]

I defer to Rolf on Rolf. Where has he said so?

In an interview:


David Peterson: Much has been written over the years about Yip Man concerning his attitude towards teaching foreigners, especially with respect to Bruce Lee's training days. What thoughts do you have on the matter?

Rolf Clausnitzer: Looking back now, I question the much publicised view that Yip Man refused to teach foreigners. The facts are that we were taken specifically to meet Yip and that he greeted us in a friendly manner and was not at all surprised to see us. Billy and I are Eurasian (he's half Irish and half Chinese) and Eurasians were definitely regarded as Westerners at the time. It's debatable, of course, but we could have become the first foreigners to train under Yip Man's supervision.

[Liddel]

, are you all really missing my point here? Especially Drew (I was surprised at your comment lol!)

I dont think im missing the point - but reitterate - what is it ?



Let me ask you a few questions then like, who was Bruce Lee?

Hes that dude that was in "the big boss right" :rolleyes:



What affect did his 'fame' have on Ip Man?

His fame as im told wasnt a big deal, the fact he taught a chinesse art to westeners and one that he didnt have much training in, irritated many from the HK VT group including Gm Ip.



Who do you know actually witnessed this turbulent time in Hong Kong?

Who said it was turbulent, in what regard ?
My Sifu was there, he lived and learnt VT in those times, no big deal, same as many others.



Who was in the Wing Chun family meetings to decide what to do? And please don't bother telling me that I'm only speculating and meetings didn't happen lmao!


Meetings were a later occurance after the inception of the accosiation at which point GM Ip was getting old and others were taking control and dismissing his opinions.
My Sifu told me of the one and only time he saw Gm IP crying which he said was because Ip was being ignored and choices were made without him.

For one - about which students would represent the school at a Kung Fu tourney.

Anyway this is hardly about VT grappling so back to the carnage.......

DREW

[anerlich]

And comments like 'Kum Na' translates as 'groundfighting' are totally laughable (sorry anerlich)

Dunno. Got it off a Chinese instructor. Maybe he was deluding me. Maybe your guy is deluding you. It sounds like it. Laugh if it floats your boat. Walking the walk is more important than talking the talk. You probably should worry more about your own problems with English before you worry about anyone else's with Mandarin or Cantonese.


as this attitude towards newcomers on this forum is actually quite boring and very damaging to Wing Chun worldwide.

The reason people treat you like an arrogant twerp isn't because you're a newcomer, it's because your posts make you sound like an arrogant twerp.

If "Wing Chun worldwide" takes anything said on this forum seriously, it deserves to be damaged and die.

No one asked you to come here. No one is making you stay.

[tjwingchun]

Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks. Lots of Yip Man styles put all their emphasis on chain punching and striking. I am curious as to whose lineage incorporates the throws and joint locks that are in wing chun. I think that sometimes its better to control an opponent than to just beat the hell out of them. Also joint locks and throws can be just as devasting as punches in my opinion. Can someone give me some info on some wing chun schools in the U.S. that teach the chin-na part of the art?
Dave

Just me being the boring type reminding people of the original post, though I think it has been covered pretty much to death hence the fall into who did what and this means that discussions.

I feel I keep repeating myself and occasionally have issues with my mental state trying to remember where I have posted in which thread, never mind what forum.

For what it is worth my opinion is that Chin Na or basic joint locks and grappling are part of Kung Fu general knowledge rather than restricted to a specific system. I trained a very small amount in Aikido and probably used the knowledge acquired there to recognize similar scenarios related to controlling techniques that I have developed via years of chi sau.

No matter where the knowledge originated the simple understanding that the body does not like being twisted in certain directions is available for any to discover if they have the mind to investigate.

[HardWork8]

You'd have to raise your IQ out of single to triple figures.

"Raise" my IQ to negative triple figures I presume?


Not knowing you, your carers, or your therapist, I couldn't really say whether it's possible and if so how long it might take.

If you ask your own therapists and carers, they might tell you that not everyone is mentally challenged like you. They might even give you some hope that some time in the "near" future you will be "normal". They would be lying.:D

[HardWork8]

You're blithering and making silly noises.... Doing this does not advance your position and attitudes.. Attitudes folks have seen for years in noobs..

I made a valid point. If you were mature enough, you would have understood it. Now, go back and read it again like a good boy and repeat if necessary, and don't stop repeating until you have understood, it and when you have, then post me. I hope to hear from you before the end of the decade.


How old are you?

I am 44, how old are you?


Try to address the points made or support your statements... Any will do.. If you can't then you should re-think why you posted these things in the first place..

My statement, stands. Let me elaborate, there are Wing Chun lineages out there that cover more areas of combat, such as ground fighting, than the more "common" lineages.
If you believe if your own WC school does not cover certain aspects of combat, then by cross training you may be going against some WC principles and concepts. However, if you have a good knowledgwe base in WC than you may just be able to adapt your new knowledge into WC principles and perhaps help yourself find what is "missing" from it in the first place.

I believe, just cross training to fill in the missing bits without adhering to WC principles is wrong. If you disagree, and you are happy with your "way", then good for you. Everybody is different.


Typing more "stuff" does not make you more convincing unless you have something to say…

You should take a bit of your own advice.

[HardWork8]

Ah yes, the old "it depends on who's doing it argument". :rolleyes:

Well I'll tell ya' what! I don't care who does aikido, for instance. Could be the greatest athlete/awesome skills/meanest sob around...

He'll still get owned by a highly skilled fighter in any of the grappling styles we've been talking about.

Because aikido all by itself is just too limited. And you've provided no evidence whatsoever that your wing chun, or any wing chun, or any northern style's grappling technique could handle the other arts we've talking about. No evidence about the extent to which these arts have efficient and enough grappling technique.

And also: So you've been mixing grappling with striking, have you?

Gee, really? :rolleyes:

Wow! I never thought of that before. :cool:

Yeah, that changes everything. :p

You definitely are a young newbie with a lot to learn.

And you get no more of my time on this subject. I've got better things to do.

"Enlighten" yourself and read my post addressed to Yung Chun.

[HardWork8]

I'm not advocating this Goof Ball Brigade you seem so keen on YungChun, I just don't like the way some people are so disregarded on this forum by people who obviously have some hang-up about their own learning.

Still, I see you also made the effort to not even attempt to answer any of my questions...

LoneTiger, please don't bother Yung Chun with moral matters, because, first of all he will not understand, morality to him is just like WC, full of principles and concepts that he does not understand.

Secondly, from now on he will be busy repeat reading my statement about WC ground fighting until he understands it. That may take a while.............

[YungChun]

"Enlighten" yourself and read my post addressed to Yung Chun.
Where is the evidence that there is a single shred of truth in your mantra?

Show us one single bit of such evidence..

Can you?

If not then it's all in your head..because someone put it there..

44 eh? Just goes to show noobs come in all ages.. :rolleyes:

[HardWork8]

Where is the evidence that there is a single shred of truth in your mantra?

Wow, finished repeat reading already? Oh, yes you are just taking a break. I know for you it must be really complicated to understand a relatively simple statement. Maybe you can ask anerlich to help you. On second thoughts don't. He'll just confuse you even more. Don't worry, in a couple of years you will begin to understand the point made in that statement (I hope). But, do let me know how you get along, and do seek medical advice after six months. We don't want your head to blow up, or anything like that.

Mantra? Because, I said that there are other lineages of WC that, unlike yours, cover ground fighting?

Anyway, there is even evidence in this thread and from other posters as well, who have been exposed to other types of WC, that is, if you manage to maintain your attention span long enough to read and digest the necessary info.

Further evidence of my school will be available when my sifu's site goes on air. This was also mentioned to another poster, I believe. I will put up the site here so that you Yung Chun can read it (or in your case, get someone to read it to you, and explain, explain, explain....).

You may also surf the net, I believe you will find further evidence of ground fighting in Wing Chun and in kung fu in general.

Honestly speaking, the problem with you Yung Chun, is that you are one of those people who keeps asking for evidence that he hopes he will never see. It is all in your writing tone.


Show us one single bit of such evidence..

See, there you go again.


Can you?

Now, stop that, little boy.



44 eh? Just goes to show noobs come in all ages.. :rolleyes:

So do retarded idiots. Now, be a good boy again and go back and continue to read my initial statement about WC, as regards ground fighting, this thread's subject, remember? Oh you don't, don't worry. You really did not have anything to add anyway, as there is no WC ground fighting in your school.

By the way, don't forget to thank the person who helps you with the reading, and tell him that I said that patience is a true virtue.

[YungChun]

See, there you go again.



Now, stop that, little boy.

44 or 4?

See you have no evidence, none at all, and so all you can do is act like a moron..

No problem, we each must do that which we are best at--keep up the good work talking to yourself...

[t_niehoff]

Honestly speaking, the problem with you Yung Chun, is that you are one of those people who keeps asking for evidence that he hopes he will never see. It is all in your writing tone.

Whether he wants to see it or not is irrelevent. If the evidence exits, you, as the claimant, should be able to provide it (after all, you are saying it does exist, so we should expect to see evidence). Saying that it is "out there" and that we should take your word for it, proves nothing.

Pertaining to other posts:

Kum na (qinna) is not groundfighting. Show me the TCMA method that TRADITIONALLY has the necessary aspects of ground fighting: pinning, escapes, submissions, guard work, passing the guard, etc. It doesn't exist.

I will agree that TODAY there is all kinds of "goundfighting" being seen in WCK or weng chun (and kung fu circles) -- but we never saw or heard about it prior to The Cheung-Boztepe fight, and particularly until after the Gracies, the UFC, etc. And the groundfighting that we see is either BJJ or something similar incorporated into their art (and oftentimes students being told it was always there) or is crappling or both.

[HardWork8]

Whether he wants to see it or not is irrelevent. If the evidence exits, you, as the claimant, should be able to provide it (after all, you are saying it does exist, so we should expect to see evidence). Saying that it is "out there" and that we should take your word for it, proves nothing.

As mentioned in a previous post, my sifu is working on a website that will be up and running soon, and when it is, I will post the address on this site. Then you will have a lot more info on this lineage and the "evidence" that you seek. Eventhough, you might turn around and say that,"oh no, that stuff was added after such and such date".

By the way, I seem to recall that another thread contributor mentioning that there was ground fighting in HFY Wing Chun.




Kum na (qinna) is not groundfighting.

I did not say that Kum La is ground fighting. I said that we practise kum la chi sao. However, while we are on the subject, Chin na can be applied on the ground.


Show me the TCMA method that TRADITIONALLY has the necessary aspects of ground fighting: pinning, escapes, submissions, guard work, passing the guard, etc. It doesn't exist.

You seem to have wrestling in mind. Ground fighting is more than just wrestling.

Some lineages of Wing Chun as well as Northern Praying Mantis, Monkey (use your imagination, with that one) as well as the tiger, use ground fighting techniques.


I will agree that TODAY there is all kinds of "goundfighting" being seen in WCK or weng chun (and kung fu circles) -- but we never saw or heard about it prior to The Cheung-Boztepe fight, and particularly until after the Gracies, the UFC, etc. And the groundfighting that we see is either BJJ or something similar incorporated into their art (and oftentimes students being told it was always there) or is crappling or both.

I like the word "crappling", it conjures up images of Yung Chun doing his Siu Lim Tao, while sitting on a toilet seat. But nevermind.

You are probably right. UFCs, etc. made a lot of traditional martial artists realize that something was missing from their training, the current example of ground fighting. The result? Many teachers/exponents began to research and even cross train.

This is not just WC/kung fu but Karate people as well, who had ignored or were unaware of the grappling aspects present within their katas. Result? Constant back engineering to understand their arts.

Now, back to WC. Some sifus probably added groundfighting aspects, but within the framework of Wing Chun's principles and concepts. My issue is with exponents that just add ground fighting techniques that do not adhere to WC concepts and principles as this will take them away from the core art. This is my view. Some don't care, because they don't care much for the art's priniciples as they just wanted to learn to perhaps chain punch, etc. and to learn it superficially. In the end of the day if they are happy, then fine. But my view stands.

As far as the WC lineage of which I am a student. It never lost the ground fighting training. The same goes for some other kung fu styles as well as some Okinawan schools of karate.

[HardWork8]

44 or 4?

See you have no evidence, none at all, and so all you can do is act like a moron..

Sorry, I have the evidence, you are the one who doesn't.


No problem, we each must do that which we are best at--

And I see that reading and understanding posts is not what you are best at.

Look for the last time. If you don't repeat read my initial statement then you won't understand it. Go back, take your medication again and read and read again, then post me back in a couple of years when you understand the statement.


Sorry, but that is the only way you are going to get it, through hard work, remember, kung fu and hard work and all that? That is it, READ, or at least get some one to read it to you.


keep up the good work

Why, thank you Yung Chun, for the first time in this thread you sounded intelligent, and I will keep up the good work.


talking to yourself

I knew it was to good to be true.

[t_niehoff]

As mentioned in a previous post, my sifu is working on a website that will be up and running soon, and when it is, I will post the address on this site. Then you will have a lot more info on this lineage and the "evidence" that you seek. Eventhough, you might turn around and say that,"oh no, that stuff was added after such and such date".


Saying proof is coming is not the same thing as providing proof.

As far as someone showing "groundfighting" -- how? More "this is what we believe we can do" stuff? Why don't the folks that claim to have "groundfighting" actually fight and prove it?



By the way, I seem to recall that another thread contributor mentioning that there was ground fighting in HFY Wing Chun.


Yes, they do. And anti-grappling too. ;) Besides, since no one has yet proved that HFY existed before Garrett Gee, what it does or doesn't have doesn't say anything about what was in the traditional WCK curriculum.



I did not say that Kum La is ground fighting. I said that we practise kum la chi sao. However, while we are on the subject, Chin na can be applied on the ground.


As I indicated, those remarks were addressing other posts, but since you responded -- to say qiina or joint locks or whatever can be applied on the ground is perhaps true *if* someone is skilled fighting on the ground. Those things don't apply themselves.



You seem to have wrestling in mind. Ground fighting is more than just wrestling.


Yes, I know. And groundfighting is much, much more than having a few techniques a person believes (hopes) they can apply on the ground. It is a whole game in and of itself. And no one will have much chance fighting on the ground without the fundamentals of ground fighting which include having a guard game, being able to pass the guard, having subs, having escapes, etc.



Some lineages of Wing Chun as well as Northern Praying Mantis, Monkey (use your imagination, with that one) as well as the tiger, use ground fighting techniques.


Many people have some techniques they believe will sork (transfer) to the ground. You can say boxing has groundfighting techniques too -- people use overhands, hooks, etc. on the ground. But those things are only the tiniest portion of the skill set people need to be able to fight any competant groundfighter.

It would do all the TMA groundfighters a lot of good to spend some time sparring with some competant MMA fighters.



I like the word "crappling", it conjures up images of Yung Chun doing his Siu Lim Tao, while sitting on a toilet seat. But nevermind.


For me it conjures up people in WCK doing the SNT.



You are probably right. UFCs, etc. made a lot of traditional martial artists realize that something was missing from their training, the current example of ground fighting. The result? Many teachers/exponents began to research and even cross train.


Exactly. And it make people selling MAs, inluding WCK, to "give the people what they want." Ergo, WCK now has groundfighting.



This is not just WC/kung fu but Karate people as well, who had ignored or were unaware of the grappling aspects present within their katas. Result? Constant back engineering to understand their arts.


You can only understand your art via application.



Now, back to WC. Some sifus probably added groundfighting aspects, but within the framework of Wing Chun's principles and concepts. My issue is with exponents that just add ground fighting techniques that do not adhere to WC concepts and principles as this will take them away from the core art. This is my view. Some don't care, because they don't care much for the art's priniciples as they just wanted to learn to perhaps chain punch, etc. and to learn it superficially. In the end of the day if they are happy, then fine. But my view stands.


Unskilled people, people who can't use their WCK tools in fighting -- regardless of what title they give themself -- can hardly even begin to know what the WCK principles and concepts are. And not that it matters. WCK, like any good MA, is skill-based, not concept/principle based. You only learn beyond a superficial level what the concpets/principles are from experience, from doing WCK, from using the WCK skills in fighting. Not the other way round. In other words, you don't learn to fight from principles; you learn the principles from/by fighting.



As far as the WC lineage of which I am a student. It never lost the ground fighting training. The same goes for some other kung fu styles as well as some Okinawan schools of karate.

Then provide proof that this "groundfighting" was a part of its traditional teachings.

[LoneTiger108]

Turning into a funny old thread this one eh! Still looking for 'proof'?

Well, funny thing is that with everyones knowledge being so superb on what Wing Chun has or hasn't got in its curriculum, I have still seen very few EXAMPLES of any curriculum at all lmao!

If I posted a piece which relates to 'drilling', and also to, what we call, 'Floor work', I suppose it will be ridiculed and eventually dismissed, so why bother? I'm just an 'arrogant' Londoner who has been deluded by my Sifu and living in a dream world...

[LoneTiger108]

Unskilled people, people who can't use their WCK tools in fighting -- regardless of what title they give themself -- can hardly even begin to know what the WCK principles and concepts are. And not that it matters. WCK, like any good MA, is skill-based, not concept/principle based. You only learn beyond a superficial level what the concpets/principles are from experience, from doing WCK, from using the WCK skills in fighting. Not the other way round. In other words, you don't learn to fight from principles; you learn the principles from/by fighting...

...Then provide proof that this "groundfighting" was a part of its traditional teachings.

I just HAVE to respond to this one T.

This is a true expression of what you believe? Unskilled people are the ones who can't use their skills in 'fighting'? And Wing Chun is 'skill based'?

Let me ask you 'how' a saying like 'Loi Lau Hoi Song - Lut Sau Jeet Chung' actually came into being? From discussions or fighting? Mmmmmm thats a hard one...

[t_niehoff]

I just HAVE to respond to this one T.

This is a true expression of what you believe? Unskilled people are the ones who can't use their skills in 'fighting'? And Wing Chun is 'skill based'?


WCK is an open skill athletic activity, like boxing, wrestling, basketball, tennis, etc. and those sorts of activities are all skill-based. As WCK is a martial art, our skill level is determined by how well we can use our WCK (fight with it), just as our boxing skill is determined by how well we can box. What makes a better boxer or better basketball player or better WCK fighter is not something intellectual (principles or concepts), it is having higher levels of skill.



Let me ask you 'how' a saying like 'Loi Lau Hoi Song - Lut Sau Jeet Chung' actually came into being? From discussions or fighting? Mmmmmm thats a hard one...

How do you know how, when, where or why the "saying" came into being? You don't. And what makes you think you know what it means? Or its context? Etc.? If a concept/principle relates in some way to fighitng, our understanding of that will depend on our understanding of and appreciation of fighting itself. There are principles and concepts in BJJ too, but a white belt doesn't understand them as a black belt does. The experience (skill) is what feeds our understanding. People with little in the way of skill (fighting with WCK tools) have little in the way of understanding.

[JPinAZ]

By the way, I seem to recall that another thread contributor mentioning that there was ground fighting in HFY Wing Chun.


I was one of these people, and yes, regarless what T the a$$ hat says, HFY does have groud fighting and it is very real.. I tried to initiate dialog, but no one seemed that interested other than trolling or screaming for vids :)

There is also another thread here regarding the actual workshop. I'd be happy to discuss anything you would like regarding the materials there or here, one just has to ask..

Jonathan

[Eric_H]

Saying proof is coming is not the same thing as providing proof.

As far as someone showing "groundfighting" -- how? More "this is what we believe we can do" stuff? Why don't the folks that claim to have "groundfighting" actually fight and prove it?



I'd be happy to if you are going to volunteer to be my opponent.




Yes, they do. And anti-grappling too. ;) Besides, since no one has yet proved that HFY existed before Garrett Gee, what it does or doesn't have doesn't say anything about what was in the traditional WCK curriculum.



Terrance, you just had to start up this kind of garbage again didn't you? The Hung Fa Yi Family history is documented in the book Mastering Kung Fu. If you want to see the research, call up the VTM.

You want to call my Kung Fu family's history made up? Be a man and say so, no more of this hiding behind cute little comments. Don't be surprised if the same scrutiny gets put on the Chu Sau Lei "lineage" as well.

As for the rest of your post, you are once again veiling BS with common sense so that folks will accept the crap with the good. Too bad for those of us paying attention there's a bad aftertaste to what you write.

[t_niehoff]

I'd be happy to if you are going to volunteer to be my opponent.


More internet challenges! Oh, my.



Terrance, you just had to start up this kind of garbage again didn't you? The Hung Fa Yi Family history is documented in the book Mastering Kung Fu. If you want to see the research, call up the VTM.

You want to call my Kung Fu family's history made up? Be a man and say so, no more of this hiding behind cute little comments. Don't be surprised if the same scrutiny gets put on the Chu Sau Lei "lineage" as well.

As for the rest of your post, you are once again veiling BS with common sense so that folks will accept the crap with the good. Too bad for those of us paying attention there's a bad aftertaste to what you write.

I'm well aware of what the VTM calls "research." And I've read "Mastering Kung Fu." Claims, stories, legends, etc. aren't proof. The only evidence that is significant is that which can be independently verified. I'm not saying HFY's "history" is "made up". I'm saying there is no proof that it existed prior to Garrett Gee as there is no independently verifiable evidence that it did. If you have some, please enlighten us. In other words, I don't know where your "history" came from. I base my conclusions on available evidence.

As far as Robert's "lineage" goes, that's no secret. And I couldn't give a rat's ass about it anyway -- skill doesn't come from lineage. Lineage is BS in my view.

The context of my statement was that someone used the claim by someone (apparently Jonathan) in HFY that it had groundfighitng, and tried to use that assertion to support that claim the groundfighting was "traditional" in WCK. My point is that it is not settled how old HFY is, so whether or not HFY has groundfighting would not necessarily support the conclusion that groundfighitng was traditionally a part of WCK.

[Eric_H]

I'm well aware of what the VTM calls "research."



So when exactly did you call and talk to them?



Claims, stories, legends, etc. aren't proof. The only evidence that is significant is that which can be independently verified.


Like the claim that WCK sucks and we all need to do MMA like you? I'd say that's a pretty unsubstantial claim.



I'm not saying HFY's "history" is "made up".


Good, thank you for clarifying.




As far as Robert's "lineage" goes, that's no secret. And I couldn't give a rat's ass about it anyway -- skill doesn't come from lineage. Lineage is BS in my view.



Lineage is a long line of people who either knew what the F they were talking about or didn't. If they didn't then the lineage ends pretty quick. It's no different than going to Yale or Harvard; they have the history of producing and that's what lineage is. Lineages that are only 1 or two levels deep can't really point and say they know WTF they're talking about unless the originator of the art was alive not too long ago.

[t_niehoff]

So when exactly did you call and talk to them?


Oh, I've heard plenty over the years from the VTM.



Like the claim that WCK sucks and we all need to do MMA like you? I'd say that's a pretty unsubstantial claim.


I never said WCK sucks -- I said the traditional training method sucks (which seems pretty well substantiated to me). And that if we want to develop good fighting skills we need to train like MMA fighters train.



Good, thank you for clarifying.


You're welcome.



Lineage is a long line of people who either knew what the F they were talking about or didn't. If they didn't then the lineage ends pretty quick. It's no different than going to Yale or Harvard; they have the history of producing and that's what lineage is. Lineages that are only 1 or two levels deep can't really point and say they know WTF they're talking about unless the originator of the art was alive not too long ago.

You're partly right -- lineage is a line of people. To prove lineage, you need to prove with independently verifiable evidence that those people really existed, that they really practiced WCK, etc. The furthest anyone can prove so far is back to the Leung Jan era.

Lineage in MAs isn't a guarantee of quality. They're not like Harvard and Yale -- who pick the "best" minds going in, so it's not surprising that they produce good minds going out. Sort of like NCAA wrestling. Those schools pick from the top high school wrestlers, so naturally they produce the best college wrestlers. But wrestling skill doesn't come from lineage or from your coach, it comes from you, from the talent you ahve and the work you do. It comes from learning the fundamentals and doing the work to get good. Just like in any sport or athletic activity. How good a boxer is, how good a wrestler is, how good a WCK fighter is, how good a basketball player is, does not depend on lineage.

In terms of MAs, crap can keep going on for a very long time. Either because it is not really being used in fighting or because of its parity with other crap (traditional jiujitsu did fine for hundreds of years until Kano came along).

[anerlich]

Amazing how much shorter this thread got when I made some obvious additions to my ignore list.

[t_niehoff]

Amazing how much shorter this thread got when I made some obvious additions to my ignore list.

Yes, it is a great practice -- ignore anyone who might disagree with your own POV so that you never have to consider anything that may upset the apple cart in your mind. And, that way you'll never have to support your own beliefs with either evidence or reason. Then the world will be a rosy place, where you only hear those things you want to hear, where your own views are consistently reinforced, and any persons with contrary views are simply rediculed. It reminds me of Cheney who only gets his news from the FOX channel. ;)

[anerlich]

ignore anyone who might disagree with your own POV so that you never have to consider anything that may upset the apple cart in your mind.

I'm more interested in removing the repetitive derivative posts, obvious moronic viewpoints, and juvenile insults. You flatter yourself. I agree with many of your POV's (since they exclusively parrot those of actual MA pioneers) but don't need to read them over and over.

I'd welcome anyone who can upset my applecart, but you ain't the one.

If your admonitions worked, they'd work for you, but the available evidence says they haven't.

IIWY I'd worry about expanding your own mind - though arguably it's so closed with the intense gravity of self-obsession you can't return from beyond the event horizon..

[osprey3883]

Terrence-

Yes, it is a great practice -- ignore anyone who might disagree with your own POV so that you never have to consider anything that may upset the apple cart in your mind.
T it's not about the right to an opinion. It is more how you highjack every WC thread and go on a rant. Yes we all understand you think the WC training you have received sucks, and that you feel like it doesn't produce results geared towards MMA competitions.
But don't be surprised if all you receive is hostility. :)

Matt

[HardWork8]

Saying proof is coming is not the same thing as providing proof.

Having trained in a crappy school of Wing Chun, which I suppose you have, does not mean there aren't any good ones around.


As far as someone showing "groundfighting" -- how?

You tell me how.


More "this is what we believe we can do" stuff? Why don't the folks that claim to have "groundfighting" actually fight and prove it?

Oh I see. Ok then, this time next week be on your computer and be connected to the internet and be ready because I'll be jumping out of your computer screen and I will pin you down with some Wing Chun grappling techniques.:rolleyes:





-- to say qiina or joint locks or whatever can be applied on the ground is perhaps true

PERHAPS true? I really would like to know what martial arts you do practise.


*if* someone is skilled fighting on the ground. Those things don't apply themselves.

Well thank you for stating the bloody obvious. How many years of MA training did it take for you to understand that concept?




Yes, I know. And groundfighting is much, much more than having a few techniques a person believes (hopes) they can apply on the ground.

And that is why we have ground fighting training in my WC lineage.


It is a whole game in and of itself. And no one will have much chance fighting on the ground without the fundamentals of ground fighting which include having a guard game, being able to pass the guard, having subs, having escapes, etc.

Wow, you really know MA.:rolleyes:




Many people have some techniques they believe will sork (transfer) to the ground. You can say boxing has groundfighting techniques too -- people use overhands, hooks, etc. on the ground.[./QUOTE]

I am not saying that boxing has ground techniques. I am not theorising. I am saying that WC has ground techniques and that is because it is trained in my school.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff]But those things are only the tiniest portion of the skill set people need to be able to fight any competant groundfighter.

And again luckily, there is groundfighting training in the lineage of Wing Chun that I study, one never knows when one might be taken down to the ground by a ground fighting boxer.......:D .


It would do all the TMA groundfighters a lot of good to spend some time sparring with some competant MMA fighters.

It would do the none TMA fighters a lot of good to first have a good understanding of TMA's before they give out any advice to TMA exponents.


For me it conjures up people in WCK doing the SNT.

So, you don't see the significance and benefit of SNT. That means you have absolutely no understanding of Wing Chun.

Next question,why are you "contributing" in a Wing Chun thread?



Exactly. And it make people selling MAs, including WCK, to "give the people what they want."

Is that what happened to you? Were you sold Mc Wing Chun? And is that why you have come to the conclusion that Wing Chun is as limited as you perceive it to be?



Ergo, WCK now has groundfighting.

Of course it has. Thank You.




You can only understand your art via application.

Wow, you must be some kind of messiah. I mean no one in this thread knew that did they, "you can only understand your art via application", that is genius, I must remember that, maybe I can use in another thread to impress the other posters.




Unskilled people, people who can't use their WCK tools in fighting -- regardless of what title they give themself -- can hardly even begin to know what the WCK principles and concepts are.

Sorry, but that is what they do exactly, they begin to know. Further training in applications and sparring will give them a deeper knowledge.


WCK, like any good MA, is skill-based, not concept/principle based. You only learn beyond a superficial level what the concpets/principles are from experience, from doing WCK, from using the WCK skills in fighting. Not the other way round. In other words, you don't learn to fight from principles; you learn the principles from/by fighting.

Again, before you learn any art, you need to be taught its basic principles, so that you will understand what you are doing and where you are headed. Then, through further training your understanding of the principles increases and you relate it more to applications and fighting.




Then provide proof that this "groundfighting" was a part of its traditional teachings.

Once my sifu's site is up, you can email him and ask for proof yourself, eventhough, I don't know why you would be interested, you seem to harbor a fair amount of contempt towards WC. Why you do, is a mystery to me as you don't seem to have any credible, or even enough understanding of Wing Chun to criticize it.

[HardWork8]

Saying proof is coming is not the same thing as providing proof.

Having trained in a crappy school of Wing Chun, which I suppose you have, does not mean there aren't any good ones around.


As far as someone showing "groundfighting" -- how?

You tell me how.


More "this is what we believe we can do" stuff? Why don't the folks that claim to have "groundfighting" actually fight and prove it?

Oh I see. Ok then, this time next week be on your computer and be connected to the internet and be ready because I'll be jumping out of your computer screen and I will pin you down with some Wing Chun grappling techniques.:rolleyes:





-- to say qiina or joint locks or whatever can be applied on the ground is perhaps true

PERHAPS true? I really would like to know what martial arts you do practise.


*if* someone is skilled fighting on the ground. Those things don't apply themselves.

Well thank you for stating the bloody obvious. How many years of MA training did it take for you to understand that concept?




Yes, I know. And groundfighting is much, much more than having a few techniques a person believes (hopes) they can apply on the ground.

And that is why we have ground fighting training in my WC lineage.


It is a whole game in and of itself. And no one will have much chance fighting on the ground without the fundamentals of ground fighting which include having a guard game, being able to pass the guard, having subs, having escapes, etc.

Wow, you really know MA.:rolleyes:


Many people have some techniques they believe will sork (transfer) to the ground. You can say boxing has groundfighting techniques too -- people use overhands, hooks, etc. on the ground.

I am not saying that boxing has ground techniques. I am not theorising. I am saying that WC has ground techniques and that is because it is trained in my school.


But those things are only the tiniest portion of the skill set people need to be able to fight any competant groundfighter.

And again luckily, there is groundfighting training in the lineage of Wing Chun that I study, one never knows when one might be taken down to the ground by a ground fighting boxer.......:D .


It would do all the TMA groundfighters a lot of good to spend some time sparring with some competant MMA fighters.

It would do the none TMA fighters a lot of good to first have a good understanding of TMA's before they give out any advice to TMA exponents.


For me it conjures up people in WCK doing the SNT.

So, you don't see the significance and benefit of SNT. That means you have absolutely no understanding of Wing Chun.

Next question,why are you "contributing" in a Wing Chun thread?



Exactly. And it make people selling MAs, including WCK, to "give the people what they want."

Is that what happened to you? Were you sold Mc Wing Chun? And is that why you have come to the conclusion that Wing Chun is as limited as you perceive it to be?



Ergo, WCK now has groundfighting.

Of course it has. Thank You.




You can only understand your art via application.

Wow, you must be some kind of messiah. I mean no one in this thread knew that did they, "you can only understand your art via application", that is genius, I must remember that, maybe I can use in another thread to impress the other posters.




Unskilled people, people who can't use their WCK tools in fighting -- regardless of what title they give themself -- can hardly even begin to know what the WCK principles and concepts are.

Sorry, but that is what they do exactly, they begin to know. Further training in applications and sparring will give them a deeper knowledge.


WCK, like any good MA, is skill-based, not concept/principle based. You only learn beyond a superficial level what the concpets/principles are from experience, from doing WCK, from using the WCK skills in fighting. Not the other way round. In other words, you don't learn to fight from principles; you learn the principles from/by fighting.

Again, before you learn any art, you need to be taught its basic principles, so that you will understand what you are doing and where you are headed. Then, through further training your understanding of the principles increases and you relate it more to applications and fighting.




Then provide proof that this "groundfighting" was a part of its traditional teachings.

Once my sifu's site is up, you can email him and ask for proof yourself, eventhough, I don't know why you would be interested, you seem to harbor a fair amount of contempt towards WC. Why you do, is a mystery to me as you don't seem to have any credible, or even enough understanding of Wing Chun to criticize it.

[Knifefighter]

And again luckily, there is groundfighting training in the lineage of Wing Chun that I study, one never knows when one might be taken down to the ground by a ground fighting boxer.......:D .

Your lineage is out of Brazil, right? Hmm... I wonder where the groundfighting came from.


So, you don't see the significance and benefit of SNT. That means you have absolutely no understanding of Wing Chun.

You see benfit in this bullsh!t?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k

[HardWork8]

Your lineage is out of Brazil, right?

My lineage is out of China and not Brazil. You should pay more attention when reading posts. Just in case you didn't know, which you probably didn't, there are no kung fu lineages out of Brazil.


Hmm...I wonder where the groundfighting came from

Just in case you didn't know, which again, you probably didn't, the chinese were ground fighting thousands of years before the discovery of Brazil.

However, feel free to keep on wondering........


You see benfit in this bullsh!t?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k

Yes I do see a benefit, actually, I see many benefits, one of which is that it keeps a lot of simple minded martial artists away from Wing Chun kwoons.

I see the benefit of SNT because I practice Wing Chun and possess an understanding of this art, unlike you.

You and people like you don't have any business posting on Wing Chun threads, unless that is, you enter to politely ask questions.

So, I would suggest that you go and play with your knives.

[unkokusai]

You and people like you don't have any business posting on Wing Chun threads, unless that is, you enter to politely ask questions.



LOL! I like it when people demand that others stay off 'their' threads!

:rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

In response to the Siu Lim Tao clip posted:

Yes I do see a benefit, actually, I see many benefits, one of which is that it keeps a lot of simple minded martial artists away from Wing Chun kwoons.

Priceless! I do like your attitude, but I have to say you may be wasting your time arguing with some of these guys, as they're like an old piece of furniture around here. Devoted to holding Wing Chun people back, by poisoning succeptible minds.


I see the benefit of SNT because I practice Wing Chun and possess an understanding of this art, unlike you...
...So, I would suggest that you go and play with your knives

It may help for you to actually 'explain' what you do know about this form, and if you wanna impress these types of happy-slapping poster tell them how you 'use' it to fight fight fight!!! That's all anyone seems to want to know around here!

What a shame this post was about 'grappling'...

[Knifefighter]

My lineage is out of China and not Brazil. You should pay more attention when reading posts. .

I just read the forum for your cult... now everything comes into perspective.

[YungChun]

I just read the forum for your cult... now everything comes into perspective.
Link please? :D

[t_niehoff]

Link please? :D


http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2402

For the anti-groundfighting discussion,

[MrBump]

IIWY I'd worry about expanding your own mind - though arguably it's so closed with the intense gravity of self-obsession you can't return from beyond the event horizon..

Priceless!

If you don't mind, I'm going to use that quote for the rest of my working life!!!

Mark.

[YungChun]

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2402

For the anti-groundfighting discussion,
Was that the thread/forum Dale was speaking of?

[t_niehoff]

Was that the thread/forum Dale was speaking of?

That's my guess.

[JPinAZ]

I don't know if hardwork8 is part of that thread/forum, nor the HFY family (but I could be wrong). Maybe T should just shut his yap let people speak for themselves. (both hardwork and T's g.friend KF)

[HardWork8]

LOL! I like it when people demand that others stay off 'their' threads!

:rolleyes:

You shouldn't "like it",and that is because you have misunderstood the point.

The point is, if one enters a thread, then it is because one is either going to contribute to that thread or enquire about the subject matter.

For one to enter a MA thread whose subject, in this case Wing Chun, is an art that he does not practice/understand or even dislikes to the point where he doesn't even know the significance of SNT, does nothing but to waste everybody else's time, just like, I suppose, your post above.

[unkokusai]

Yes, much more productive to whine like a little ***** because someone interrupted the sewing circle. :rolleyes:

[sihing]

Yes, much more productive to whine like a little ***** because someone interrupted the sewing circle. :rolleyes:

Interesting how people look at the art of whining:). Hardwork8 made some valid points based on logic, you don't like it and call him a name, and you think he is the one whining? LOL, that's funny dude:D

James

[HardWork8]

I just read the forum for your cult

Wrong (again), I don't belong to any cults, nor relgions for that matter, same thing I suppose.


...now everything comes into perspective.

Here is a hint, now that I have seen your scholarly side, before everything really "comes into perspective", you will need to find a GOOD Wing Chun school and practice for a some years, not forgetting to read some quality literature on the subject, then you will at least qualify to discuss the subject, and yes, EVEN make some informed criticism.

[HardWork8]

Yes, much more productive to whine like a little ***** because someone interrupted the sewing circle. :rolleyes:

Rather be isolated, than spend the time with bad company

The only thing you "interupted" here was the discussion at hand, to which you have contributed absolutely nothing, and of course you have also interupted your own attention span. I hope that you recover soon, but not too soon.

[HardWork8]

Interesting how people look at the art of whining:). Hardwork8 made some valid points based on logic,you don't like it and call him a name, and you think he is the one whining? LOL, that's funny dude:D

James

LOL, well at least he is funny. Imagine if he wasn't even that....:)

[HardWork8]

In response to the Siu Lim Tao clip posted:


Priceless! I do like your attitude, but I have to say you may be wasting your time arguing with some of these guys, as they're like an old piece of furniture around here. Devoted to holding Wing Chun people back, by poisoning succeptible minds.

One can only try. What gets me is that some of the people who most criticize WC are the ones who have the least knowledge. I suppose that is true in other areas of life as well.




It may help for you to actually 'explain' what you do know about this form, and if you wanna impress these types of happy-slapping poster tell them how you 'use' it to fight fight fight!!! That's all anyone seems to want to know around here!

I don't think it is worth our time to try and impress such people. The irony here is that Wing Chun was created for fighting. Most people who do not understand the WC approach and indeed the Kung Fu approach in general, are looking at these arts through tinted glasses, that is, glasses tinted with kickboxing, boxing, bjj, etc. paint.

As far as explaining the SNT is concerned, I believe that it would not do any good. As some of the people who a have criticized WC have made their minds up already about it, one can see this from their writing tones.

Those who are interested in WC for real and practice it, will already have an understanding of SNT, the others however, will have spent hours on forums such as this criticizing it, rather than spending 15 minutes and reading readily available (on the net) literature about SNT's function and concepts.

[t_niehoff]

One can only try. What gets me is that some of the people who most criticize WC are the ones who have the least knowledge. I suppose that is true in other areas of life as well.


Then show them they are wrong.

It's a very easy thing to refute criticism -- just provide evidence that proves what you say is true. And, that's what separates the fantasy-based MAs and its practitioners from the reality-based MAs and its practitioners.



I don't think it is worth our time to try and impress such people.


And that's because you can't -- because your claims are empty and a fantasy.



The irony here is that Wing Chun was created for fighting.


So?



Most people who do not understand the WC approach and indeed the Kung Fu approach in general, are looking at these arts through tinted glasses, that is, glasses tinted with kickboxing, boxing, bjj, etc. paint.


And BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, etc. weren't created for fighting? ;)

Yes, God forbid, anyone look at WCK through functionally tinted glasses!



As far as explaining the SNT is concerned, I believe that it would not do any good. As some of the people who a have criticized WC have made their minds up already about it, one can see this from their writing tones.

Those who are interested in WC for real and practice it, will already have an understanding of SNT, the others however, will have spent hours on forums such as this criticizing it, rather than spending 15 minutes and reading readily available (on the net) literature about SNT's function and concepts.

Forms from a learning or training perspective are a waste of time. The evidence is in and its overwhelming.

[unkokusai]

Interesting how people look at the art of whining:). Hardwork8 made some valid points based on logic, you don't like it and call him a name, and you think he is the one whining? LOL, that's funny dude:D

James



"Waaaa...don't post on 'our' threads if you don't say what we want...waaaa...you aren't WC, stay away...waaaaa"


How the hell is that a valid point?

[unkokusai]

then you will at least qualify to discuss the subject, and yes, EVEN make some informed criticism.




................................:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Rather be isolated, than spend the time with bad company.



WC's motto? That's good, you can all stay inside the comfort of your kwoon where the center-line chain punch is god and 'anti-grappling' exists.

[sanjuro_ronin]

all this talk about ant-grappling is silly, of course it exists !

Here it is:

[HardWork8]

Then show them they are wrong.

I don't need to show them that they are wrong, they do that all by themselves, when they enter discussions on Wing Chun without even knowing the significance of the Siu Nim (Lim) Tao form.


Forms from a learning or training perspective are a waste of time. The evidence is in and its overwhelming.

There, you did it again. The problem with you is that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

You don't even have a beginner's understanding of Wing Chun, let alone any of the other styles that use forms as a part of their training methodology, yet you insist on entering threads and blow hot air about systems and concepts you understand nothing about.

[sihing]

WC's motto? That's good, you can all stay inside the comfort of your kwoon where the center-line chain punch is god and 'anti-grappling' exists.

Since you just showed us your cards, there's no need to go any further. We arrest our case, thanks for makin it easy unko:)

James

[unkokusai]

all this talk about ant-grappling is silly, of course it exists !

Here it is:



Wow, you could really hurt your finger that way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow, you could really hurt your finger that way.

Not if you have the real "thrusting fingers".

[HardWork8]

all this talk about ant-grappling is silly, of course it exists !

Here it is:

Of course it exists, and it has existed for centuries and in more than one kung fu style, as well.

By the way, that picture is interesting, I have never come accross that technique, however, next time someone tries to take me down, I will try it, but in his nose, and not mine. I just hope that there will be soap and water handy.

[unkokusai]

Since you just showed us your cards, there's no need to go any further. We arrest our case, thanks for makin it easy unko:)

James




That's it, be sure to draw the curtains so no one can see outside!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course it exists, and it has existed for centuries and in more than one kung fu style, as well.

By the way, that picture is interesting, I have never come accross that technique, however, next time someone tries to take me down, I will try it, but in his nose, and not mine. I just hope that there will be soap and water handy.

different strokes for different folks...:D

[HardWork8]

................................:rolleyes:

Yes, I know that it is a confusing statement. Do what I suggested another forum member, repeat read it about 10,000 times and you may then understand it. Or even better, don't and go and make your "contributions" in another thread.

[HardWork8]

different strokes for different folks...:D

Hey, who says that I don't crosstrain?;)

[unkokusai]

next time someone tries to take me down, .


unless its another WCer, they will almost certainly succeed, but that's ok because you can just chain punch your way out from your back.

[unkokusai]

Hey, who says that I don't crosstrain?;)

You seem more likely to crossdress...