Yin shou gun

[Jingwu Man]

Someone just told me that Yinshougun is not actually a Shaolin form, but was imported because it fit well and was a good beginner form to learn, and that originally it was Qi mei gun that was the starter form.
Can anybody tell me more about this? Is it true?:confused:

[TaichiMantis]

If it is the same as yum sao gwan or yam shou gun, it is a mantis pole form. It's one of my favorites. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTCzzFsp95I

Grandmaster Chui Chuk Kai of Tai Chi Praying Mantis was in charge of many Jingwu schools in Vietnam, Macau, and Hong Kong.

Whether or not TCPM can be traced back to Shaolin, or even if this form is one of the original mantis weapons forms...I don't have a clue.

[GeneChing]

If the legends are to be believed, Shaolin absorbed the bulk of its forms from external sources. Surely you've heard the old "sanctuary to political refugees" tale. What made Shaolin special was that it was a repository, or perhaps academy in the true monastic sense of the term, for the martial arts. Many of Shaolin's most famous forms probably originated elsewhere, but Shaolin incorporated them into their curriculum. They still do that today. It's part of the tradition of Shaolin. So when you say something is 'not actually a Shaolin form' I'm not sure what you mean.

Yinshougun is referenced as one of the five Shaolin staff forms in Shaolin's earliest extant manual, Cheng Zongyou's Exposition of the Original Shaolin Staff Method, which is dated at around 1610 CE. So it's been attributed to Shaolin for the last four centuries. It's also worthy of note that a major thrust of Cheng's book was to establish these five forms as authentic Shaolin staff forms. This was in reaction to a proliferation of non-Shaolin staff forms that bore the Shaolin moniker. Considering that this was an issue four centuries ago, that gives you some perspective on how old the discussion of 'what is authentic Shaolin and what isn't' is. It's been part of our tradition for at least twice the age of the United States of America.

[Jingwu Man]

Ah, thanks a lot Gene!

Some people were telling me it was a recent import to the temple, like since the latest reconstruction, and I was pretty incredulous.
It's a great staff form and really has that Shaolin flavour, which is why I was so shocked to hear that perhaps it wasn't.

What are the other four authentic forms that were listed?

Taichimantis: Thanks! Not the same form, but it's interesting to see it. What does the name of the form mean? Yin shou gun means soft or negative (as in yin/yang) hand staff, referring to the palm down grip in a lot of the form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl6-6SS_iDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up2iJryOFYc

I just wanted to make sure and check with those in the know.
Glad I did! :D

[TaichiMantis]

Ah, thanks a lot Gene!

Taichimantis: Thanks! Not the same form, but it's interesting to see it. What does the name of the form mean? Yin shou gun means soft or negative (as in yin/yang) hand staff, referring to the palm down grip in a lot of the form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl6-6SS_iDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up2iJryOFYc

I just wanted to make sure and check with those in the know.
Glad I did! :D

Yum Sao Gwan(cantonese pronunciation) = Negative Grip 2 Ended Staff
We also have Tang Lang Yim Yuen Gun = Yin-Yang Stick which I haven't learned yet...

But with CCK's association with Jingwu, I don't know if it was a mantis form brought to Shaolin or a shaolin form he incorporated in his mantis. Maybe Robert (mantis108) would know...:confused: But now that I think about it, I'm sure other styles have their version of a "negative grip" staff form...I just don't know how far back our versions go.

[GeneChing]

Cheng lists five staff forms: yinshou, xiaoyecha, dayecha, pai and chuansuo. I've seen all but the last one demonstrated at Shaolin Temple at one time or another. I might have even seen chuansuo, but just not known it.

BTW, I'm currently learning a variation of yinshougun from Shi Yanfei. The latter half of his form is completely different than what most everyone is practicing nowadays. It's very interesting.

[LFJ]

We also have Tang Lang Yim Yuen Gun = Yin-Yang Stick which I haven't learned yet...

there is a shaolin yinyanggun as well. this is the only video i've been able to find of it: http://www.56.com/u73/v_MTU1MjM4Nzg.html


BTW, I'm currently learning a variation of yinshougun from Shi Yanfei. The latter half of his form is completely different than what most everyone is practicing nowadays. It's very interesting.

i've seen these types of forms, but they looked just like an extended version of yinshougun. but the extra movements also seemed modernly created. it didnt have the same feel as regular old yinshougun when it changed. but it was still very cool.

[GeneChing]

There used to be three Shaolin representatives at our school (http://www.usaomei.com/)(one has moved to another Shaolin school :rolleyes:) and they introduced a yinshougun to the curriculum which was fairly standard. Just recently, Yanfei busted out this different version which has a - dare I say? - almost more traditional feel than the standard. For instance, for Chop the Cudgel in a Lower Wing Stance (note I'm using the Shaolin Gong Fu – A Course in Traditional Forms (http://www.martialartsmart.net/bslx115.html) lyrics since that's the most available in English) most practitioners do this flamboyant aerial backbend to slamming the staff on the floor pubu. It's the move we use for our Shaolin Staff hoody (http://www.martialartsmart.net/95w-012ry.html). I love that move. Anyway, Yanfei does it as this short sweep strike thing - a very practical, no-frills type of strike. He's done it that way a few times, very quickly. Most of the students are defaulting to the standard method - they haven't even noticed the variation. I've only seen him do it a few times so I haven't quite got it yet. He's not making a big thing of it all, almost like he's sneaking it out to see who's is fast enough of eye to see it. Or maybe I'm just tripping on a short cut he's using when he's teaching. Anyway, the other variations don't add anything that's not practical or overly flowery. Quite the opposite. I'm thoroughly enjoying the variation. It may be a keeper.

[LFJ]

Anyway, Yanfei does it as this short sweep strike thing - a very practical, no-frills type of strike.

that description makes me think of the way shi deyang does yinshougun here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hl6-6SS_iDo

this seems much more traditional to me too. but the way the coaches and students all do the form at his school is not like this. its like the way most people do it with that slightly modern feel to it, when compared to this.

in fact, most of the forms he teaches on his videos are different versions than what is actually being taught at his school. although, the style on the videos seems much more traditional to me. more of the "straight but not straight, bent but not bent" characteristics. it feels tighter. whereas, the modern versions are all.. out there. you know?

[GeneChing]

Deyang's form is a lot like Decheng's form, only Deyang has his own unique energy that he brings to all his stuff. The pattern is very similar to what I learned however. Yanfei's form is quite different in the end. That's cool. I like variations.

[sha0lin1]

For instance, for Chop the Cudgel in a Lower Wing Stance (note I'm using the Shaolin Gong Fu – A Course in Traditional Forms (http://www.martialartsmart.net/bslx115.html) lyrics since that's the most available in English) most practitioners do this flamboyant aerial backbend to slamming the staff on the floor pubu. It's the move we use for our Shaolin Staff hoody (http://www.martialartsmart.net/95w-012ry.html). I love that move. Anyway, Yanfei does it as this short sweep strike thing - a very practical, no-frills type of strike. He's done it that way a few times, very quickly. Most of the students are defaulting to the standard method - they haven't even noticed the variation. I've only seen him do it a few times so I haven't quite got it yet. He's not making a big thing of it all, almost like he's sneaking it out to see who's is fast enough of eye to see it. Or maybe I'm just tripping on a short cut he's using when he's teaching. Anyway, the other variations don't add anything that's not practical or overly flowery. Quite the opposite. I'm thoroughly enjoying the variation. It may be a keeper.[/QUOTE]

The way I learned it is more like the way De Yang does it. We do the aerial backbend slam too, but more for performances to jazz it up a little. There are a few minor variations the way Xing Ying teaches it, especially at the end. We finish on the right slamming the staff down on the foot instead of on the left in De Yangs version.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If the legends are to be believed, Shaolin absorbed the bulk of its forms from external sources. Surely you've heard the old "sanctuary to political refugees" tale. What made Shaolin special was that it was a repository, or perhaps academy in the true monastic sense of the term, for the martial arts. Many of Shaolin's most famous forms probably originated elsewhere, but Shaolin incorporated them into their curriculum. They still do that today. It's part of the tradition of Shaolin. So when you say something is 'not actually a Shaolin form' I'm not sure what you mean.

Oh, okay. I guess Shaolin-Do was right after all........


Welcome to Hell! Man is it cold in here. Is that snow?

[Yao Sing]

I learned it at Shaolin in 1998 and it's mostly the same as the posted videos with minor differences. I've seen it done quite a few different ways so who knows which one is 'correct'.

[GeneChing]

There's a literalism in forms transmission that's simply absurd. It's something that many students do because they only grasp the skin, so to speak. Assuming each form has meaningful interpretations, they could all be correct. Or they could all be incorrect, depending on the lack thereof. It's not about the literal moves. It's about the transmission. Think to Bodhidharma and his take on the sutras. It wasn't about the literal transmission of the words of the sutras. It was about the transmission of chan. You can change the words. Sometimes you have to change the words. Obviously the words had to be changed so they could translated into English. As long as the chan is there, you can say what you like.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YONe5kU-tQ
i like that variation...first time seeing it done like that
everything is really broken down

[LFJ]

Deyang's form is a lot like Decheng's form, only Deyang has his own unique energy that he brings to all his stuff. The pattern is very similar to what I learned however. Yanfei's form is quite different in the end. That's cool. I like variations.

yeah, i wish more of decheng's performances were available to take a look at. i've only seen his xiaohongquan from way back posted on youtube.

but then, he doesnt have a video series like deyang. but then again, those videos arent full speed and power performances.

i've found, its interesting how some of their forms are very similar, whereas others are vastly different.

[Yao Sing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YONe5kU-tQ
i like that variation...first time seeing it done like that
everything is really broken down

That's how i learned it.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

That's how i learned it.

really??...awesome
dis is the way i learned it
http://www.nacma.net/popwin2.cfm?f=MarkStaff.wmv
=)
same moves......but the *youtube* one is really broken down into details
i like i like a lot

[Pk_StyLeZ]

not yin shou gun
but i like dis staff form also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tlHmh29FYo
dnt know if it a real shaolin staff form or not..but look like it to me..and it looks nice IMO

[luohan]

Hi

1- if somebody got the lyrics for yinshougun i would be grateful .(also in chinese if possible)

2- there is a instructional video of yin shou gun but the vcd's title is qimeigun(and yin shou gun is performed with a normal height staff)
whats the connection between them after all?

[UK MONK]

hay all, need some help with some research and thought that the forum would be the best place to come.

im looking for info on ing shou gun. any info would help me. iv studied the form for 4 years but still dont know that much about it. iv tried wiki, google and youtube but didnt get much info so here i am.

who made the form?
how old is it?
has it changed over the years?
is there a modern equivalent?

thanks guys. :)

[LFJ]

im looking for info on ing shou gun. any info would help me. iv studied the form for 4 years but still dont know that much about it. iv tried wiki, google and youtube but didnt get much info so here i am.

who made the form?
how old is it?
has it changed over the years?
is there a modern equivalent?

spelling it as yinshougun would possibly help. :)

in the ming dynasty general yu dayou (俞大猷, 1503-1580) visited shaolin monastery and passed on the stick methods trained by his troops to the shaolin monks. the monks through generations then blended those methods with what they already had and came out with the yinshougun set, so it goes.

so it is at least from late ming since it is also recorded in the "exposition of the original shaolin stick methods" (少林棍法阐宗) from around 1610.

basically it is at least a late ming dynasty creation then, but it has a section that comes from shaohuogun (烧火棍), "tending fire stick", from the yuan dynasty, credited to monk jinnaluo (紧那罗).

the section also shows up in the ming dynasty set fengmogun (疯魔棍), "crazy devil stick", which is identical to shaohuogun until halfway through. this was created by monk zhishan (智善) who expanded the original 19 postures of shaohuogun into 25 postures.

this sequence may have been monk zhishan's addition or jinnaluo's original 19 posture creation, placing that in at most the yuan dynasty, and at least the ming. but yinshougun also shares the same strategy as fengmogun- the "crazy" (feng), inverted (yin), logic of the sets. it belongs to the lost tracks boxing (mizongquan 迷踪拳) system. fengmogun using drunken arhat stepping.

so it is obviously most related to the fengmogun set from the ming dynasty. it is possible that monk zhishan who lived in the 1500's, about the time of general yu dayou's visit, also created yinshougun. but it may have just come from other monks still in the ming dynasty who used the older sets in its creation.

[tattooedmonk]

Oh, okay. I guess Shaolin-Do was right after all........


Welcome to Hell! Man is it cold in here. Is that snow? you crack me up

[RenDaHai]

Yin shou gun,

It has been in shaolin long enough to be considered Shaolin whether it was first created there or not.

Since 'yin shou' refers to both hands holding the staff in the downwards grip, this is a very common name for a staff form, that and 'yin yang gun' where the hands oppose. I wouldn't be surprised if many styles have a yin shou gun.

Yin Shou is the most common stick form in shaoin. Lots of schools add some extra moves to make it cooler, but in reality it is a fairly simple form.

It may interest you all to know that there are at least 3 forms, YIn shou gun yi lo, er lo, san lo... this is certain, I also heard there were 6 from another source but I am not sure.

YeCha gun has 5 forms (2 xiao, 2 Da and another). All similar, it tends to use the staff likea spear... shaolin gun should be 30% staff, 70% spear according to old maxims.

[LFJ]

Since 'yin shou' refers to both hands holding the staff in the downwards grip, this is a very common name for a staff form, that and 'yin yang gun' where the hands oppose.

i think this is a common misinterpretation that perhaps came from other styles that do that with their yinshougun, since a lot of the shaolin yinshougun set does not actually use both hands in a downward grip, such as the whole last section. while other sets like shaohuogun use the downward grip throughout the entire set, yet make no special mention of it.

as i learned, shaolin yinshougun belongs to the mizongquan system. the "yin" refers to its strategy being opposite of normal logical thinking, in order to confuse the opponent, having them incorrectly anticipate your next move. as explained in chinese here:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/1288701.html?fromTaglist

所谓阴者，就是把这个动作用反打的方式表现出来，它不按正常的思维逻辑进行演练，往往是你看到演练的动作会 猜想它的下面动作是什么样子，可是按照猜想得出的结果是错的，它指上打下，声东击西，忽左忽右，令人捉摸不 定，防不胜防。

[RenDaHai]

Yeah, I heard that too,

But I heard from older teachers that it referrs to the grip. YIn shou uses that grip in most of the form... It is certainly the reason yinyang gun is so named. It seems to make more sense that it refers to the grip.

[SenseiShellie]

Everyone has a variation of this form. Even USSD has one...

[mickey]

Greetings,

I had the opportunity to meet with someone who performed a set that reminds me of this one. It was called the Black Tiger Pole. I was wondering if the two forms are related. I will share some of what was shared with me. The set I saw was performed with both hands facing downwards; but, involved such a flexible appoach to the grip, that the opponent would not know what end the practitioner would use (shades of Lost Track here). There were times when I saw the guy change his grip each time he did the form, changing/hiding intent to each action. The term Yin as used to describe the form could also be translated ask "dark," a conceptual suggestion of the mysteriousness and the unpredictability to the opponent when that hand position is used that is similar to the strategy of the Black Tiger Pole.

mickey

[GeneChing]

Spain GT not
America-s-Got-Talent (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?63735-America-s-Got-Talent). We have a Britain GT thread (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?60688-Britain%92s-Got-Talent) which has more posts but no Spain one yet - maybe I should just merge them all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1zpftZlqdA

threads
Yellow-Black-Jumpsuit (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?27596-Yellow-Black-Jumpsuit)
Yin-shou-gun (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?48637-Yin-shou-gun)

[GeneChing]

What has 4 legs in the morning, 2 at noon, and 3 in the evening? READ Shaolin Ways Episode 7: Yinshougun (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1640) by Gene Ching

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/6696_Yinshougun-Ezine_Lead.jpg

Yin-shou-gun (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?48637-Yin-shou-gun)
BSL-Lyrics-Shaolin-Staff (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?13315-BSL-Lyrics-Shaolin-Staff)

[Djuan]

What has 4 legs in the morning, 2 at noon, and 3 in the evening? READ Shaolin Ways Episode 7: Yinshougun (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1640) by Gene Ching

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/6696_Yinshougun-Ezine_Lead.jpg

Yin-shou-gun (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?48637-Yin-shou-gun)
BSL-Lyrics-Shaolin-Staff (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?13315-BSL-Lyrics-Shaolin-Staff)

right on time! currently working on this !

Amituofo