Which Part of wing chun is bad?

[southernkf]

Lately I have been trying to apply my wing chun in a much more free form manner against an unwilling opponent. I feel I have learned a lot, but muuch of my learning has been that I am doing things wrong. My application is at fault. But it has also validated that wing chun is just fine, so far, in sparing sessions dispite what many MMA people try to preach.

So I was thinking, which parts of wing chun are invalid, assuming you take that position. Is it the striking? Do we not strike Correctly? It seems to me that many people can hit pretty good. I don't see much issue with delivering powerful blows. Though I admit not everyone has those blows. What I have found is that if you don't deliver powerful blows then your opponent won't "respect" you and will walk all over you.

Is it Bong Sau, Jut Sau, or perhaps Mun Sau? Are these inadequate? It seems to me that they tend to work well when applied in the correct manner. I admit I had some trouble with Bong Sau. But I quickly found the problem and am working on fixing it. It was a bit of a timing/engagement issue. However when applied properly it worked pretty well.

Perhaps the stances. Are the stances bad? Which one, or all of them? Does it not allow the mobility or the ability to backup our strikes or hits? The stance seemed OK. I had problems here and there in my balance. My rooting was great but it seem adequate when I needed it to be. But it could be better.

Perhaps it is engaging? This was a major factor for me, but not so much for others senior to me. I think this part is the most difficult to do correctly and I saw a lot of room for improvement.

Personally I think the tools are all valid and I think most of the MMA people have a ligit gripe. I don't think the gripe is valid when directed towards the tools wing chun has. But I do think the break down in application with many are in the application of the those tools. For me, there are many ways to apply these tools, some work and others don't. Unless you get out there and learn it, you won't be able to. But I still have a hard time understanding what exactly the MMA people feel is bad? I feel it is the implementation.

[JPinAZ]

This questions can't be answer simply. It could be the practitioner, the opponent, or anything else. Without seeing what it was you were doing (or not doing) how can a person answer? It seems you had issues with applying your WC, but assume it might be the fault of the art you practice (stances, techniques, etc). To me this does not sound logical.

I doubt highly that it the ineffectiveness of any one or group of 'techniques' you listed. Techniques are the result of applied strategies backed by understood principles & concepts. For example, if you are trying to use a technique in the wrong range, position, etc, it's chances of success are much smaller. So when you say you are having a problem with 'bong sau', in what regards are you speaking? WHEN is the correct time for bong sau? How do we know this? Also, what kind of bong sau are we talkig about? What is the facing, range, eneregy, etc it is being applied? And against what type of bridges?

It seems this orignal post is a loaded question(s) that can't be answered simply, and is a little absurd to me. Unless I misunderstand what you are asking (?)
I think any gripe the 'mma people' would have would be against individuals, not the art itself. Unless of course they are playing the averages, but again, I still don't see it being the art, but the practitioners themselves.

heh, since you asked, that's my penny's worth :)

JP

[LoneTiger108]

I have tried to find the answers to this question for some time, and can only attempt a short response as the questions here are broad and worthy of further discussion:

Wing Chun is as bad as the teacher, as good as the student and as simple or complex as you want it to be.

We're only playing 'kung fu' after all...

[Liddel]

One might say that no part is bad persay - but there are things that are of less and more importance that suit the individual.

No one person is going to utilse every action / fighting strategy comprised only within one style.

Perhaps its the Fantasy based / legend associated hype that hitches a ride on the back of many TCMA's, but ill leave that to the true prophets of that message :rolleyes:

DREW

[Lugoman]

I am a WC noob (8 months) and I occasionally go back and spar my Karate/Kick Boxing buddies and the only thing I'm finding when opening up the bag of WC tricks is that there are not a lot things there that can be used in light-semi contact arena. It's either full bore or nothing.

Typically, my sparing partner will advance with... say a backfist and I will pak, step off the line and counter 3/4 chain punch or fak sau. It works well but it's about all I can pull off in a semi live sparring session thus far and it gets predictable really fast.

I can use the tan, the bong, pak and jum with a good deal of success in defense but seldom am I able to counter as they tend to step back or cover before I can advance. Though if they press me, then it is on. I am capable of going a toe-to-toe using WC stuff with much better success. Not infallible, something will eventually get through... but I do realize that I have a ways to go with WC proficiency.

I don't believe that WC does well in sparring type situations due to the nature of how it is supposed to be utilized. I don't feel it is well suited for match type fighting. It is not the typical bounce around, look for an opening to exploit, hit, stop, tap gloves, and bounce around some more. It's more aggressive than that. It's more like halt the attack, hurt the oponnent, keeping hurting them until they can no longer continue.

It is kind of hard to control that kind of aggression if you are having a friendly sparing session. Even my hardcore kick boxing friends would call me a d*ck after a fak sua to the neck or kick to the knee.

Bottom line, I don't think you can see WC's true potential in a half hearted rule based fight arena.

What is invalid? Lack of grappling. There is no principle I can find in WC that carries over into Randori period. But maybe I am too set in my ways in that regard and have yet to explore it.

Anyhow, that's my noobie screed on WC, I'll just wait for the WCK Gestapo on the board to happen along and tell me I haven't the right to have opinions on WC, I'm too young and foolish.

[woodendumby]

As for the mma ppl who ride the "wing chun sucks" bandwagon... they can't answer that question because they have no clue. Who of them have squared off against a experienced WC practitioner ? Who of them have seen WC in application, other than some chi sau clips on you tube....( which is not WC fighting ).
Perhaps they have seen one or two fights with a WC practitioner...and it did'nt look so good. And so they base their conclusion on this. ( but more likely they base their conclusion on the last persons post )
Believe me....I have seen MMA fighters who looked horrible, and got dominated. I've seen PRO MMA fights that looked just like a many grade school fights I witnessed. Shall I base any "conclusions" on this ?
I'm smart enough to know that it has little to do with the style, and much to do with the heart, and dedication of the fighter . How can one say this or that is better ?

[couch]

It was a bit of a timing/engagement issue. However when applied properly it worked pretty well.

...

Perhaps it is engaging? This was a major factor for me, but not so much for others senior to me. I think this part is the most difficult to do correctly and I saw a lot of room for improvement.



I think this is #1 for most practitioners starting to apply and spar with the WC. Myself included.

You *MAY* get your block knocked off if you kinda half-ass your WC entry. WC is very "strong." Think about it: you don't turn off one shoulder or get yourself into a ball of monkey kung-fu (no offence to the monkey practitioners!)...you stand there with your chest square to the opponent - a very common stance when in an argument, etc. It's almost like saying: "Here I am, all of me."

Very scary in deed. Takes a lot of heart to stand like that - "exposed." But the nature of it is after you can get over that and feel strong knowing that you have all your weapons at equal distance, that you have two doors to crash down and that you are going to destroy your opponent with three attacks at once...it's all good. And it's all experience.

As one of my WC guides has pointed for me: work and really think about those WC entries. They're all over the place, especially the dummy. Don't be afraid to drill these. It's no different than repeatedly stuffing a jab and returning a punch like in a boxing gym. It buildes timing and has a 100% applicability to fighting. Can I say applicability? :)

Work in progress,
Kenton Sefcik

PS, I don't criticize my WC...I love it. So do many others: James, Vic, Jim, Liddel, Ernie, etc, etc. Don't get caught up in all the player haters. Don't hate the player, hate the game!

[southernkf]

My question wasn't designed to illicit comment about my skills. I am happy with my skill and progress. My question stems from hearing so many people criticize wing chun. I do admit much of the criticism is warrented. So, I thought I'd ask specificly what part is of no use. Once we identify the part(s) we can see why it is of no use and how it might be corrected.

[KPM]

No part of the Wing Chun system is "bad" per se. But for many, the training methods need to be updated. Doing the forms and Chi Sao with your classmates is not going to make you a fighter. I think too many Wing Chun schools don't include realistic conditioning, training on modern equipment like heavy bags, focus mitts, etc, and realistic sparring. Hopefully that is changing.

Keith

[YungChun]

No part of the Wing Chun system is "bad" per se. But for many, the training methods need to be updated. Doing the forms and Chi Sao with your classmates is not going to make you a fighter.

If these elements are not helping--a lot--then it's either because they aren't being trained right or they are not being applied right or both...

Folks must understand and train:


With real (body alignment) power..

With Spring Energy

Without hand chasing...

With Fan Sao...

With Lut sao chick cheung..

With Doi Ying...

With structure destruction...

With intensity..

With Contact..

Etc..

Folks with no sparring experience will fall victim to the "silly" demo moves and wonder why they are not working--they will think, hmmm some of WCK doesn't work... No no no.. Those goofy interpretations don't work because they are goofy..

The core WCK attributes must be ever-present, understood and applied in training if the training is going to correspond to the sparring.. The moves used must be economical and powerful and visual sensitivity must be cultivated along with tactile sensitivity..

When entering you must use good timing and do so fearlessly—scare the crap out of your opponent and make them eat punches and/or energy—DO three movements at once--learn how to make body power work for you as well as position and wash over them with your attacks like a ocean wave.....

Those who do spar will find out what doesn't work.. But without a good teacher folks may never get find out what would have worked unless they are very smart and able to clearly analyze the material in a realistic manner.

Test out your sifu with tough sparring questions and if you think he’s FOS, then try him out and let him show you how to do it when you don't let him do his thing..:eek:

[k gledhill]

A good idea is to try to become the attacker asap. You raise the percentages in your favour dramaticly by simply being the attacker ,using strikes that both cut across an intended strikes path and make contact at the extension....2 actions for 1 punch in rotation. this is the very basic techniques we use , developed in dan chisao as a 2 part punch so to speak, developing the in & out focus of tan /jum NOT the wrist down crap then punch...one training in this way will NEVER even see the development of 2 arms each striking while deflecting....lin sil di da x 2 in freefighting one will never see a tan shape or a jum, because they are part of the punches ;) not kung fu poses :D
To make this work one needs to stop going at peoples centers like chisao, chi-sao is simply training at the apex of the triangle one enters on....using the base of the triangle as the line to shift and turn according to what the attacker presents, on either side of the triangle relative to your line ....each arm is capable of striking and deflecting in one beat to TAKE AWAY the attack from the guy asap and MAINTAIN it from that point on, if they cover up 'po-pai-them back to YOUR striking range , not just a blind push....like a wave crashing , it doesnt suddenly stop and let the surfer drop :D ride it...short shuffling steps allow the force of the quadriceps to extend into the ground repeatedly utilizing the great force they generate in small explosive extensions matching our strikes and energy/traps...you will NEVER feel this force yourself , so you have to have someone to confirm its there always, many never gain this unity. It is a MAJOR part of the attack , using this energy constantly , smaller students all have a tremendous amount of power they are never shown to harness.
Taught in modules but strung together in a simple execution of an attack ,it is not easy to do altogether....standing in one spot doing chisao like moves to complying attackers/students is not going to work .

[Mr Punch]

No part of the Wing Chun system is "bad" per se. But for many, the training methods need to be updated. Doing the forms and Chi Sao with your classmates is not going to make you a fighter. I think too many Wing Chun schools don't include realistic conditioning, training on modern equipment like heavy bags, focus mitts, etc, and realistic sparring. Hopefully that is changing.

KeithSo, no part of wing chun is bad apart from the training methods? Well, that just about covers it! :p :D

My answer: the reputation, the inconsequential bickering instead of training, the insufferable illogical smugness of many of the practitioners... :eek:

[ittokaos]

Well, I suppose that I am just going to repeat what others have been saing(typing).

Nothing is wrong with WC. Nothing. It is an amazing style and the more you learn the more you realize that whoever had a hand in creating it were geniuses. Plain and simple.

That is all that you need to desribe this style yet when one is a practioner of it they still find more then what is just on the surface. Even after years and years of teaching the style they may still find little "tricks" here and there that were not seen previously yet were there all along.

Ultimately the style isn't considered good if the practitioner isn't, so don't get so hung up on what MMA guys(who haven't really studied the style) say. They know what they know but it is usualy nothing true about Kung Fu. Therefore, they find it easy to "bag" on what they don't understand.

Go over to Dragon's List. You will find that the majority don't know what they are talking about but they still talk about it as if they studied with the greatest. You'll find many have done a little kung fu and then decided to go to mma because they couldn't find the leg lock (or what ever grappling technique) they were looking for. A silly reason but that is MA today.

WC has it all(not ankle locks. at least I dont think it does :}) so don't worry about what ****s on a forum say(myself included) and just train.

I hope this helps,

WF

[tjwingchun]

Go over to Dragon's List. You will find that the majority don't know what they are talking about but they still talk about it as if they studied with the greatest. You'll find many have done a little kung fu and then decided to go to mma because they couldn't find the leg lock (or what ever grappling technique) they were looking for. A silly reason but that is MA today.

I have recently joined that forum, as I found that there was a thread about me:eek:

So do I fall into the category of "the majority don't know what they are talking about but they still talk about it as if they studied with the greatest", Alan Lamb, Samuel Kwok and Yip Chun and if you want to chase an old name from the past in Aikido try Jim Elkin, who I did the smallest amount with while at University.

As far as the ankle lock is concerned I could adapt a technique from chi gerk that does the job but also more of a knee lock simultaneously.

I do understand where you are coming from and actually agree with you, just having a laugh :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

As an outsider looking in, may I say that you need to spar more with people OUTSIDE WC, especially MT and MMA.
As you do that WC will naturally evolve.

[bawang]

i don't think wing chun is bad at all, but i think westerners who do wing chun need to practice and focus on speed, that's my opinion. you have to be FAST, i can't emphasize it enough. and your feeling have to be hyperactive and twitchy, like you drank too much red bull.

[YungChun]

i don't think wing chun is bad at all, i think westerners who do wing chun need to practice and focus on speed, that's my opinion. you guys punch way too slow for wing chun.
Actually the egg beater punches (as well as other super fast 'invisible' moves) are a big part of the problem in Wing Chun..

This kind of emphasis on unrealistic timing and hand speed ignores key components, like body unity and linking up the body with the hands arms--it makes us forget about time on target and vital penetration with the strikes--it emphasizes speed at the cost of other core attributes....

Unrealistic super fast hand work looks good, if you don't know what to look for.. IMO it's a byproduct of no or light contact--'touch me kill me', training that works best when seen and not needed to be felt..

Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuH-GYUHyQw

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually the egg beater punches (as well as other super fast 'invisible' moves) are a big part of the problem in Wing Chun..

This kind of emphasis on unrealistic timing and hand speed ignores key components, like body unity and linking up the body with the hands arms--it makes us forget about time on target and vital penetration with the strikes--it emphasizes speed at the cost of other core attributes....

Unrealistic super fast hand work looks good, if you don't know what to look for.. IMO it's a byproduct of no or light contact--'touch me kill me', training that works best when seen and not needed to be felt..

Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuH-GYUHyQw

Is that an example of good or bad "fast hands".
There is very little behind those strikes.

Fast strikes and fast combos are two very different things.
When I see someone send out a barrage of strikes it usually means they have never done that in a real fight where your follow ups are dependent on the reaction of your opponent and not him just standing there.

[YungChun]

Is that an example of good or bad "fast hands".
There is very little behind those strikes.

You did read my post right? :eek::rolleyes:;):confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You did read my post right? :eek::rolleyes:;):confused:

I wasn't sure if that was a good or bad example, though I assumed it was an exmaple of bad, just wanted to be sure.

The lack of aliveness was obvious, though I think it could work on a zombie.

[YungChun]

No need to assume.. I said it here:


IMO it's a byproduct of no or light contact--'touch me kill me', training that works best when seen and not needed to be felt.. Like this:

[sanjuro_ronin]

No need to assume.. I said it here:

Picky *******.
:D

[bawang]

Actually the egg beater punches (as well as other super fast 'invisible' moves) are a big part of the problem in Wing Chun..

This kind of emphasis on unrealistic timing and hand speed ignores key components, like body unity and linking up the body with the hands arms--it makes us forget about time on target and vital penetration with the strikes--it emphasizes speed at the cost of other core attributes....

Unrealistic super fast hand work looks good, if you don't know what to look for.. IMO it's a byproduct of no or light contact--'touch me kill me', training that works best when seen and not needed to be felt..

Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuH-GYUHyQw

i have no idea what they are doing in the video. why are they punching so many times? i agree it looks like bad trianing, but thats not speed. you can see his punches aren't fast, they're just a lot and the camera blurs it. i'm not talking about fast chain punching, i'm talking about fast punching, one two, one two.
i think what i was trying to say by speed is twitchy, jerky speed.

[YungChun]

i have no idea what they are doing in the video. why are they punching so many times? i agree it looks like bad trianing, but how is that speed and explosiveness? you can see his punches aren't fast, they're just a lot and the camera blurs it.
When most WCK folks talk about speed, they are talking about hand speed... WCK is not all about speed anymore than it is about strength. Both these things are important but are not the focus of the system, which uses good position, timing and body mechanics over speed.

If this is not what you meant by speed feel free to include a video of the kind of speed you mean..

[bawang]

i found this video of caow ga, look at the part of the video when the guy shoots his hands out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5GC0OgMm1g
the part when he shoots his hands out, it's not really fast, but it's jerky. there's no speeding up the hand , when he sends his hands out, i hope you can understand me

[YungChun]

i found this video of caow ga, look at the part of the video when the guy shoots his hands out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5GC0OgMm1g
the part when he shoots his hands out, it's not really fast, but it's jerky. there's no speeding up the punch, when he starts to punch it's already fast, i hope you can understand me
He needs to loosen up and release some power IMO..

He appears to be slowing himself down with his own tension..

[sanjuro_ronin]

i found this video of caow ga, look at the part of the video when the guy shoots his hands out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5GC0OgMm1g
the part when he shoots his hands out, it's not really fast, but it's jerky. there's no speeding up the punch, when he starts to punch it's already fast, i hope you can understand me

Sifu Whitrod knows his stuff, no doubt.
Beats the crap out of his students too, gotta love that kind of training :)

American kenpo guys are notorious for crappy fast strikes too, its not just the WC guys.

[bawang]

He needs to loosen up and release some power IMO..

He appears to be slowing himself down with his own tension..

but you understand me now right. my friend back in my old city showed me his wing chun, it was very jerky, very explosive. not a chain punch, just like a normal punch, but it was fast and twitchy. just one punch, but you can't see it.

[YungChun]

but you understand me now right. my friend back in my old city showed me his wing chun, it was very jerky and twitchy, very explosive.
Yes, I think you are talking about fa-jing..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, I think you are talking about fa-jing..


Beat me to it and yes, Paul does look a tad constipated, but that is a sign of put chi baby !!

[bawang]

Yes, I think you are talking about fa-jing..

just forget what i said, all i meant to say is speed(normal punching not eggbeater slapping) is important in wingchun. if you just keep trying to punch as fast as you can, your punches will get jerky and twitchy and you will notice. maybe this is fajing, then every wingchun punch should be a fajing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sorry about the misunderstanding, i'll trying to say again. my friend he does wingchun many years, he show me,
it's just one normal punch, very fast, can't see it. if it's fajing, then every wingchun punch should be a fa jing.

Fajing is almost impossible to do in combinations, at least I have never seen it.

[bawang]

hmm, i think my friend he was just fast.
it's hard to talk about fast, because people think different fast. when i mean he fast, i tried to spar but couldn't because he was too fast. you don't understand how friggin fast he was. he wasn't speed slapping, it was just one move one block, but it was **** fast!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

hmm, i think my friend he was just fast.
it's hard to talk about fast, because people think different fast. when i mean he fast, i tried to spar but couldn't because he was too fast. you don't understand how friggin fast he was.

The "best" way to test that speed comes with power is to spar with good protective gear, I put best in quotations because there are a few methods but I feel that the best one is sparring because it it more practical , BUT one persons power is another persons slap.

[bawang]

that's very true! i tried to spar with westerner who do whing chun, it was very sad and i understand why you said this.
but it was real sparring. i got accidentally hit and it hurt like hell, so he had power.
there's is something seriously wrong with the way kung fu people in general are trianing in north america. not enough sparring and bag punching maybe.

finally found a good example. when i mean jerky, twitchy, i mean like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLV4ovEJNtU

[YungChun]

Yaooo..

His mechanics are....umm less than ideal..

I know what you mean but he ain't it either..