Training with law enforcement officers [Archive]

Sal Canzonieri

10-26-2007, 10:15 PM

. . . is **** cool, you get great insights into things.

They have to be aware of all the different angles that the perp can still pull out a knife from or grab their gun, while taking the perp down onto the floor and THEN have to make sure that no matter what technique the class is doing, the move has to end so that the perp is face down and cuffable, and totally incapable of stopping the cuffing!

Much more interesting and very insightful. Angles in the techniques have to be perfect or the perp can counter and uprooting the perp is a must.

The police and FBI trainers in the classes are versed in mixed techniques that they got from southern monkey, tong bei sword, Sun style's TJQ, BG, and XY, Chin na, and Jujitsu/ Shuai Jiao.

Sal Canzonieri

10-26-2007, 10:18 PM

Oh, and law enforcement is training AGAINST MMA now, so I am learning new ways of dealing with things through their questioning of applications.

David Jamieson

10-27-2007, 05:29 AM

Most LEO training is external to the academy. the basic stuff they receive regarding restrain and contain deals with talk down and cuffing etc etc.

as for dealing with martial artists? no. They don't offer training that is the same as what a person who is into competitive fighting would get.

truth is, a lot of cops are all over the board with their self defense training and truthfully a lot of cops don't train at all and for sure many who are over 50 yrs haven't trained in a while and many would likely fail the basic test for entrance.

plus, the pool is muddy now after 911 where we have a flood of LEO's now and a lot of them aren't quite qualified etc etc.

so what's my point?

My point is, there is no set way for LEO's to train. there aren't any standards placed on self defense and in reality it is a hodge podge of stuff they draw from. So, in short, if any of you can come up with a standardized training platform for LEOs at a federal compliance level, then you will have made yourself a career worth having.

It's a lot of work. :)

Sal Canzonieri

10-27-2007, 05:46 AM

Very true, that's exactly what they say when people ask them why they are taking martial arts classes. I think people assume that there is official training.
I've had LEO come in to learn sword techniques so that they can apply them to their batons.

I think some people in LE know that they need something more serious and go out and look for it.

The one FBI trainer said that the classes they give are now looking at dealing with MMA, cause it keeps coming up that these big lugs try to use it on them.

Shaolin Wookie

10-27-2007, 07:06 AM

Tai-Lik

10-27-2007, 07:11 AM

i've been a Police Officer for 16 years. Every department has it's own emphasis in regards to self-defense. During the 90's our department started training every officer in BJJ. Many of our instructors were sent to the Gracie schools for certification. Although our training emphasizes handcuffing, restraining, and weapon retention technniques, our training goes way beyond that. Using only necessary to subdue a criminal leaves Officers vulnerable to be taken to the ground when the criminal's active resistance esculates. This is why during our quarterly training we spend 8 hours a day rolling around on the mat repeating basic ground fighting techniques. Officers who work in certain specialties such myself do it on a weekly basis during working hours.

With the popularity of MMA, some agencies do openly take into consideration and train for arrestees who may have this experience. So in the last few years boxing, krav maga, kung fu, chin na, and shuai jiao have been introduced into our training. Our department has put together a standard self-defense curriculum which focuses on basic and instinctive techniques from these various arts. You may have already heard, but many agencies are interested in the self-defense training offered by the Hong Kong Police.

xcakid

10-27-2007, 07:21 AM

My sifu is a cop by day. He says that Shuia Chiao and Chin Na techniques are pretty common use for him. Lots of knife defense. He says that learning to spar improves reaction time. Learning to apply Chin Na and Shuia Chiao techniques properly helps take down suspects or disarm them.

I have a friend that is an FBI agent, it seems that they are pretty basic when it comes to hand to hand, however he seems to be very well versed in shooting.

Me, I like taking the middle road. Have both the hand to hand and shooting skills. Being a civilian, I don't have to disarm the book the suspect. All I have to do is stop the threat. Living in Texas we have a ton of laws that backs self defense. With the enhancement of our Castle Doctorine, the law tilts more toward people defending themselves. Specially if the bad guy has a history.

David Jamieson

10-27-2007, 07:27 AM

The modern way is to focus on those things that give you the upper hand. hence the practical shooting training and use of so-called non-lethal weapons will take presidence over any empty hand training.

restrain and contain is the only place where locks, seizing and holds etc would be of any use to a cop.

often this is easier to do with a perp that has been pepper sprayed and tazed. :p

not much work to cuff a blinded paralyzed dude.

:)

Tai-Lik

10-27-2007, 07:55 AM

law enforcement procedures often change with cases like Rodney King and others.
realistically, there will frequently be situations when officers have to deal with arrestees who are "passively resisting" in a "hands on" manner. the typical "non-lethal weapons" are probably not being used against a person who is passive. it's during the passive stage when things are most dangerous & can quickly change to the active resistance or aggression and now your in a fight. if the arrestee is initially in a active aggresive state, then your so called "no lethal weapons" asp batons, etc. can be deployed immediately.

of course we are trained to have the upperhand tactically, but officers on the streets know that there are many calls and situations that you can't predict or control and need to defend yourself "hands on" until you can get to your lethal or non-lethal weapon if necessary. obviously officers don't want to wrestle or fight with a criminal because weapons they carry on their person can be used against them, but the reality is that these situations happen unexpectedly everyday.:)

Tai-Lik

10-27-2007, 08:19 AM

David Jamieson wrote:

hence the practical shooting training and use of so-called non-lethal weapons will take presidence over any empty hand training.

very interesting point, but realistically, officers find themselves in situations where there is no time for this opportunity even with all the tactical edge training we receive. if there is enough information prior to arriving at the scene then an officer can have be mentally prepared with some of these lethal or non-lethal weapons ready while using distance, cover, concealment, body positioning, etc. to his advantage, but the everday call isn't like that. most calls don't allow you to walk up with your OC spray, asp baton, or gun in hand. btw pepper spray doesn't work on everyone and i've seen guys rely too much on it and get beat down by criminals who are on drugs or who are apart of the small population of people who simply do not react to OC spray.

my point is that based on what we know today regarding the typical encounters officers face, training in empty hand self-defense is just as important as weapon training.

Water Dragon

10-27-2007, 11:58 AM

I think a lot of people here are missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if it's Shuai Chiao or Judo, Chin Na or Aikido. There's a set of skills that are useful to the Police. Police need to restrain people. They need a way to get them on the ground, and control them to get cuffs on. They need a way to make beligerant people comply in less extreme situations. There's a number of ways to get these skill sets. I don't think this is really that big of a focus for most cops anyway. They have mace, sticks, tasers, and handguns availible to them most always, and things lot shotguns and swat teams if things get really bad. Most cops just aren't gonna put themselves into a hand to hand situation unless they are forced to. Too much danger and legal liability there.

The other thing is that civilian needs just aren't the same as the police. First, you're simply not likely to get attacked. I always get a kick out of internet 'warrior' stories. I lived in one of the most violent ghettos in the country for about ten years, and have never seen the **** people here are claiming. I did get knifed once when I was 18. I got shot at 2 or 3 times, pulled a gun on someone once, and actually used martial arts one time. I choked out some drunk in a bar when I was about 28 and then just left before anyone knew what happened. I also got beat down by 3 dudes when I was 19. That one was kinda bad. I've seen a lot of ****, I ran a lot of times, and kep a good enough eye to leave quite a bit of situations.

As far as martial arts, I just don't find it beneficial to me to train something to prepare for some 'street situation. It's would be a waste of time to me. I get the physical fitness benefits, the social benefits, and since my kids do Judo too, we get family bonding time. Plus, I get to compete, which is something I enjoy. It's a lot of fun for me. This is where I find value in martial arts today. I'm also firmly of the belief that the only way to develop and KEEP skill is through constant competetive training of some sort. Of course there are other necesities, but this one has to be there. Don't do that, and youre **** probably wont work. At least not as good as it should. I do get that as well, but I rarely think about that aspect anymore.

That being said, that's just how I see it based on what is important to me. Other people are gonna have different motivations, which is great. As long as you're training is adding value to your life, you're doing good.

Mas Judt

10-27-2007, 01:28 PM

Oh come on Larry, I've been to your neighborhood, it's like Palm Springs, only with industrial blight, uneducated psychotic f@ck ups, and more drugs and guns than any thousand people could use. A totally, safe, suburban environment. Sheesh. :D

Water Dragon

10-27-2007, 02:29 PM

Ironically, that's the point I'm making. Even in that environment, life went on as it normally does everywhere for the most part. The people that get caught up are looking for it. Even there, you don't see the stuff that people here seem to be worrying about. And if you do, it's because you went looking for it.

rogue

10-27-2007, 02:40 PM

The other thing is that civilian needs just aren't the same as the police. First, you're simply not likely to get attacked.

Very true, and if we see trouble we are not obligated to get involved. I have trained with LEO's and haven't found them to have much knowledge that is useful to me. I have learned a lot from deputy's who hear a lot of things in the courts and in the jails.

The people that get caught up are looking for it.
Almost a self fulfilling prophecy. Once upon a time I was worried but now I just enjoy the training.

1bad65

10-27-2007, 02:44 PM

Tai-Lik

10-27-2007, 03:01 PM

Water Dragon wrote:

Police need to restrain people. They need a way to get them on the ground, and control them to get cuffs on. They need a way to make beligerant people comply in less extreme situations. There's a number of ways to get these skill sets. I don't think this is really that big of a focus for most cops anyway. They have mace, sticks, tasers, and handguns availible to them most always, and things lot shotguns and swat teams if things get really bad.

i think there is misconception that Police must attempt to restrain people in every situation and that mace, sticks, SWAT .....are always available or that there is always time to pull out these weapons. When a criminal is resisting arrest passively, restraining & controling techniques are necessary, however if a situation quickly or unexpectedly advances to active aggression stage (assaulting the officer), the officer now finds himself in fight just like anyone else except for the fact he is wearing weapons that can be used against him. if the officer can get to his lethal or non-lethal weapon depending on the situation, without it being used against him that's wonderful, but this is not always the case. this is not a good time to be worried about handcuffing or restraining techniques:)
the reality is that most officers have there firearms and other weapons taken from them while attempting to restrain criminals who are actively aggressive towards the officer.

Tai-Lik

10-27-2007, 03:24 PM

I train with a few too. One of them has actually fought MMA. It's different than training for self-defense or for the ring he says. Not to snipe, but he says he would never try and use pressure points in a fight or sd situation, but he uses them in his job for compliance. Kind of like a 'come along'.

good point. in today's society with the increase of officers being assaulted, it is very important for officers to be able to use restraining techniques when appropriate and use other hand techniques such as striking as well when a situation esculates. it doesn't matter whether it's MMA or whatever, as long as it addresses the different levels of resistance that officers face.

"come alongs" and pressure points are used during "passive" or non-compliance situations. when a criminal is attacking an officer it is now a self-defense situation. situations officers face are not always at restraining level.

put on a uniform with oc spray taser, asp. , gun and then have someone on meth who happens to be larger surprise attack you. imagine this while you attempt to restrain him and also imagine what could happen as you attempt to pull out your asp baton during this time. you would probably have to strike or get away in order to have time to pull it out.

1bad65

10-27-2007, 04:07 PM

"come alongs" and pressure points are used during "passive" or non-compliance situations. when a criminal is attacking an officer it is now a self-defense situation. situations officers face are not always at restraining level.

That's how he put it too. I just could not type it so to the point. :)

The weapons issue really changes things too. You have to not only defend yourself if assaulted, you have to 'defend' your weapons from possibly being taken from you as well.

rogue

10-27-2007, 06:53 PM

put on a uniform with oc spray taser, asp. , gun and then have someone on meth who happens to be larger surprise attack you. imagine this while you attempt to restrain him and also imagine what could happen as you attempt to pull out your asp baton during this time. you would probably have to strike or get away in order to have time to pull it out.

At least LEO's don't have to face multiple opponents. ;)

Water Dragon

10-27-2007, 09:19 PM

Water Dragon wrote:

however if a situation quickly or unexpectedly advances to active aggression stage (assaulting the officer), the officer now finds himself in fight just like anyone else except for the fact he is wearing weapons that can be used against him.

I agree with this 100 %. Notice I mentioned Judo and Shuai Chiao. I've trained both and think they work great for cops. Especially if they go for your weapon. O Soto Gari for you today!

But now we're back to the central idea of having to train consistently in some type of a competetive environment. This is definately a similarity between civilian and military needs so much. And let's face it, O Uchi Gari looks a lot better legally than a few thai kicks the the leg and an elbow to the dome. He went for my weapon, Sir. We started wrestling around for it, and we both fell. I landed on top of him thank God or I might not be here today But ya gotta train, and a lot of cops don't.

RD'S Alias - 1A

10-27-2007, 09:50 PM

The interesting thing about this, is dealing with thugs, and arresting people actually does count as training experience, so they really don't need as much skill work outside of thier active duty schedules as one might think.

Water Dragon

10-27-2007, 09:55 PM

Ya know, you got a point there. My question would be, how often do those situations actually occur. Anyone got the answer to that?

RD'S Alias - 1A

10-27-2007, 10:08 PM

In the mid 90's I was learning Long Fist, and Sun Bagua privately from a cook County Sheriff. He got into stuff like that almost daily.

He still practiced skills with his group 1, and on occasion 2 times a week, in addition to shooting and his morning conditioning before his shift.

Every month or so, he would do a seminar on new techniques. From what I gathered, it sounds like he would learn something new at a seminar, then work it til he got it once a week with his guys. Then he'd forget it and move on to something else as his daily job gave him all the practice he needed after the initial learning curve was done.

The only other practice he got was tossing me around, like a rag doll, but I think that was just for fun.

When I knew him, he was not actively practicing his long fist. His once a month lesson was in his Sun style bagua,

Mas Judt

10-28-2007, 07:04 AM

Well, I can cite a buddy of mine who is now an operator in Afgahnistan, an ex-Antioch cop (a crappy town on the SF Bay) - I first saw him demonstrate his H2H and i asked where did he learn Pukulan? He didn't. A few lessons in less than stellar MA and a LOT of street practice. He's really a genius, as most 'street-trained' have trouble against 'skilled' - but I also saw him take on all comers - and ruthlessly dispatch them.

So - yeah, they often get it in the street. However, as I have long advocated, and as demonstrated on the Human Weapon (Where Jason Chambers was smacked around by a rebar wielding marine when he tried to pull guard or stabbed repeatedly by an Israeli special forces guy when attempting a shoot) that most sporting techniques sacrifice usefulness in reality in favor of winning in the street. A balance of live training needs to be balanced with actual understanding. You have to know what your goals are and have someone who knows what they are doing to guide you.

Both Judo & Shuai Chiao (I'd add Sambo) are great as they teach you what it feels like to face resistance - something most with no competitive experience will crumble under.

However, for police/military training, I highly recommend a tool-using art such as good school of Kali or Silat or Kun Tao that features 'live work' in their training.

Mas Judt

10-28-2007, 07:08 AM

FWIW - out of the dozens of peace officers I have known, only a few had any real skill. But the few who did were top-knotch. Largely because they took training seriously.

On the other hand, the needs of a civilian are very different. Most of my inteactions with Leo's consisted of uncomfortable aghast chuckles followed by 'we wouldn't be allowed to do that.'

But - over the past twenty years, the BASIC stuff LEO's are taught has improved dramatically.

jdhowland

10-28-2007, 08:14 AM

i think there is misconception that Police must attempt to restrain people in every situation and that mace, sticks, SWAT .....are always available or that there is always time to pull out these weapons. When a criminal is resisting arrest passively, restraining & controling techniques are necessary, however if a situation quickly or unexpectedly advances to active aggression stage (assaulting the officer), the officer now finds himself in fight just like anyone else except for the fact he is wearing weapons that can be used against him. if the officer can get to his lethal or non-lethal weapon depending on the situation, without it being used against him that's wonderful, but this is not always the case. this is not a good time to be worried about handcuffing or restraining techniques:)
the reality is that most officers have there firearms and other weapons taken from them while attempting to restrain criminals who are actively aggressive towards the officer.

I have to agree with this. A cop acting without backup is particularly vulnerable. A friend of mine was killed by his own weapon after holstering it and going for his radio, instead. He had decided that the suspect was not beligerent.

Most cops have long stretches between violent encounters. Those working at jails and pre-trial booking institutions sometimes have to deal with more frequent violent situations than the arresting officers experience. The minutes after the restraints are removed can be intense.

I've been doing this work long enough that I think I can give one bit of advice to LEOs who train or to the people who train them: Don't try to grab a flailing limb and try your chin-na or aikido technique; go for the gross motor skills. Extension succeeds where flexion fails. Those trained in the "Tibetan" styles know what I'm talking about. Power and structure training such as found in yiquan or many other Chinese systems have a slight advantage over more technique-driven systems in building this kind of skilled response.

Be safe this holiday season.

John

Water Dragon

10-28-2007, 10:50 AM

So - yeah, they often get it in the street. However, as I have long advocated, and as demonstrated on the Human Weapon (Where Jason Chambers was smacked around by a rebar wielding marine when he tried to pull guard or stabbed repeatedly by an Israeli special forces guy when attempting a shoot) that most sporting techniques sacrifice usefulness in reality in favor of winning in the street. A balance of live training needs to be balanced with actual understanding. You have to know what your goals are and have someone who knows what they are doing to guide you.

And again, different tools for different toolboxes. If I'm a cop, I may need to engage in that type of a situation, should it occur. I'm a civillian, so I need to disengage. Truth be told, if a guy has a knife, I'm gonna know it and leave. No, I'm not gonna know he has a knife specifically, but I'm gonna know something's going on. I guess I got hyper sensitive to my environment living where I did, but you can pick up on stuff like that. People just act different when they have the mindset of doing something. If you get that feeling that's something off, listen to it and leave. If we're talking 'self defense' that's what we should be focusing on. Especially when we're dealing with things like rape prevention and defense for the elderly.

-edit-

FWIW - out of the dozens of peace officers I have known, only a few had any real skill. But the few who did were top-knotch. Largely because they took training seriously.

On the other hand, the needs of a civilian are very different. Most of my inteactions with Leo's consisted of uncomfortable aghast chuckles followed by 'we wouldn't be allowed to do that.'

But - over the past twenty years, the BASIC stuff LEO's are taught has improved dramatically.

Oops, I didn't read this before I wrote what I did or I would have just posted, "Yeah, what he said."

RD'S Alias - 1A

10-28-2007, 11:13 AM

And again, different tools for different toolboxes. If I'm a cop, I may need to engage in that type of a situation, should it occur. I'm a civillian, so I need to disengage. Truth be told, if a guy has a knife, I'm gonna know it and leave. No, I'm not gonna know he has a knife specifically, but I'm gonna know something's going on. I guess I got hyper sensitive to my environment living where I did, but you can pick up on stuff like that. People just act different when they have the mindset of doing something. If you get that feeling that's something off, listen to it and leave. If we're talking 'self defense' that's what we should be focusing on. Especially when we're dealing with things like rape prevention and defense for the elderly.

Reply]
I agree. I have gotten into some really good fights when I was young (I seem to have an innate ability to **** people off without meaning to). I eventually learned to see the signs long before anything occurred, and just remove my self to a less vulnerable position.

The last actual fight I got into was about a year and a half ago. I had to step in to protect a girl from her out of control boyfreind in a bar. In that case it wasn't even a serious fight, I just got in close, and controlled his knife hand so he was not able to deploy it in the first place. I know the guy, and he allways has one on him in his rt frnt pocket. My other hand was on his shoulder, and I positioned my lower body so if he tried anything, I would have thrown him.

The other one I was ready to, but he backed down. That was very recently, a few weeks ago. Both times a stand up grapling, like Shui Jiao would have been the best way to handle things.

Tai-Lik

10-28-2007, 02:03 PM

Ya know, you got a point there. My question would be, how often do those situations actually occur. Anyone got the answer to that?

It depends on your assignment and the area you work. Officers assigned to narcotics street units or warrant fugitive units may encounter this on a weekly basis. Hopefully encounters are limited by officer safety and man power issues, but this is not always the case. In a pefect world, you always have enough officers working each shift and you always have back up. If your assigned to the booking area where you have to secure all your weapons before entering, you likely to have this experience sometime during your career even with all the best safety measures. I don't think the issue is how often each individual officer has violent encounters, i think the issue is being prepared for all levels of encounters including those which may be violent hand to hand.

Most officers i know or work with are training martial arts outside the regular training course provided in our departments and btw most of us don't eat donuts :)

Due to the types of people that officers encounter, an officers perspective on self-defense techniques and what works may be alittle bit different than others. He understands that someone may call him on it. personally i would not wast my time training something that couldn't work for me.

For LEO i would recommend learning restraining/compliance techniques, striking, wrestling and ground escapes because you don't want to be on the ground with a weapon or while someone else can jump on during the fight. An Officers mind set should be on NOT going to the ground or how to escape from the ground. knowing retention techniques standing or on the ground are import. knowing how to restrain or hold the suspect who is attacking you until back up arrives or you catch your breath would be a good idea too:)

DragonzRage

10-28-2007, 02:52 PM

The stuff that I learned in the academy and the stuff that seems to be most prevalent across all departments and agencies (at least here in the L.A./SoCal area) is Krav Maga and MMA based (albeit MMA applied to practical street type situations). Systematically, I think its very good stuff. The problem is that by and large we don't get to practice it enough. For example in my dept, I think we only have dept mandated training bi-annually. And the bi-annual training is basically a several day refresher course and work shop. Granted we do regularly apply stuff hands on out in the field, practicing and learning technique twice a year just isn't enough to develop good proficiency. There are a good number of people who train on their own time and are very proficient, but the majority do not.

But regardless of that, I think that any experienced and competent street cop can be a very proficient 'martial artist' even if he's not extremely technical in terms of unarmed fighting skills. Martial skills/attributes that any good cop possesses, such as good common sense, situational awareness, understanding the streets you're walking on, being able to think quickly and act decisively under pressure, good communication skills, etc will save your skin far more often than your marksmanship or your Jiu Jitsu. I can think of a number of more experienced officers that I work with who I would tool on the mat or in the boxing ring, but are still far better warriors than I am. Because these guys have the knowledge and experience to be able to comfortably walk into and handle high threat situations that might overwhelm a 2.5 year boot like me.

Cops are not UFC fighters, and most cops would probably find it pretty impractical to spend a large amount of their time training those skills. Sure MMA proficiency would be helpful, but so would extra training in tactics, building searches, active shooter scenarios, etc etc. In the end there's only so much time in your life to dedicate to training, and only those who have a personal interest in MA training are going to spend a load of time on it. I've been in plenty of physical scuffles on the job, but most of the critical life threatening 'oh $hit!' situations I've been in have had nothing to do with h2h fighting.

As an example: I was patrolling by myself, driving down the street one night and see a group of people standing around outside their car, which is apparently stalled or has a flat tire or something. As I get closer I suddenly realize that this group of $hitheads matches the exact description of an armed robbery that occurred less than half an hour ago, involving a group of five-six gang types armed with at least one long gun and one handgun. I'm just rolling by as I realize this, and several of these guys look right at me and make eye contact. By the look on their faces I know that these guys are worried about getting caught, and so I'm sure they are the robbery suspects. I'm alone, there's at least five of them, and they have at least two guns (probably more). I'm thinking they may very well decide to light me up before I can put it out my location on the radio.

Its situations like that one that are the most dangerous. What do you do when you're in a situation like that? I can tell you for **** sure there are no answers in Muay Thai, Bjj, Kookoo Ryu Karate-Do or whatever other style. So in the end you need to place the importance of those skills into perspective.

Water Dragon

10-28-2007, 03:48 PM

How long you been a cop, Bro? Why, it seems just yesterday you were a snot nosed lil kid on Mousel's.

Mas Judt

10-28-2007, 04:55 PM

And again, different tools for different toolboxes. If I'm a cop, I may need to engage in that type of a situation, should it occur. I'm a civillian, so I need to disengage. Truth be told, if a guy has a knife, I'm gonna know it and leave. No, I'm not gonna know he has a knife specifically, but I'm gonna know something's going on.

I would not bet my life on this. You will only know if it's coming if you face an amateur, just like stepping into the ring with a 'point' karate guy. You'll 'know' you can beat him. But, the technique as it refines for sport and the rules of sport lose their basis in reality, just as fantasy techniques get created by those who believe themselves to be super-deadly, with no experience to base it on. Instinct and experience with bad people helps, but real skill helps too.

Also consider, that you may not have the choice to disengage. Then what? What if your training made you great in the ring, but wide open against a skilled, aggressive attacker that wants to eat your kids and rape your car? Can you rely on a good shoot? Or pulling to gaurd? - Maybe. But these are not high percentage moves when you must assume weapons.

Training is a circle. The current MMA fad is a wonderful, needed evolution. But the myth that it prepares you for combative fighting is just that. (Although it still does a much better job than about 90% of the 'martial arts' schools I have seen.)

The one great benefit from training with cps is situational knowledge.

Water Dragon

10-28-2007, 05:32 PM

I would not bet my life on this. You will only know if it's coming if you face an amateur, just like stepping into the ring with a 'point' karate guy. You'll 'know' you can beat him. But, the technique as it refines for sport and the rules of sport lose their basis in reality, just as fantasy techniques get created by those who believe themselves to be super-deadly, with no experience to base it on. Instinct and experience with bad people helps, but real skill helps too.

Now, I'm not saying I can pick up if a guy has a knife. I'm just saying I can pick up that's something's 'off', and if I do, I'm not sticking around to find out what's exactly off about the situation. People who are planning something are just a lil too on. A lil too friendly, a lil too nervous, a lil too shady somehow. I'm just saying if you pick up on that, leave, before whatever has a chance to happen happens. I'm not arguing about how to engage, I'm arguing getting the fu.ck outta Dodge before you have to engage.

Mas Judt

10-28-2007, 06:40 PM

Which is the ultimate self defense. Don't be there.

Water Dragon

10-28-2007, 09:38 PM

*snatches pebble*

DragonzRage

10-29-2007, 03:03 AM

"How long you been a cop, Bro? Why, it seems just yesterday you were a snot nosed lil kid on Mousel's."

LOL!! Yep those were the days... back when I was trying to convince my mom that I was the reincarnation of Bruce Lee. Been a cop for about two and a half yrs now. Man I barely ever look at this forum anymore, and when I do I rarely post anything. But when I do take a peek here, its always nice to see the OGs like you, Knifefighter, SevenStar, and others still here keepin it real haha.

Tai-Lik

10-29-2007, 10:41 AM

RD'S Alias - 1A

10-29-2007, 10:51 AM

That cop needs Tai Tzu training. His suspect was wide open for the second technique in the Tai Tzu 32 move form. It's an arm wrap followed by a takedown in which you throw the opponent by his face.

Not only was the suspect wide open for it, he was pulling in that direction anyway, so he actually would have helped the officer throw him by his face.

In addition to that, the kid I know who is a collegit wrestler taught me a really nasty armbar that you can easily flow into from there that would give the officer a submission, followed by another minor change up giving him a free hand to cuff too.

sanjuro_ronin

10-29-2007, 10:58 AM

Okay, the following happens. These clip are not to criticize what the officers could have done different tactically to avoid the situation. I think the discussion relates to self defense training in law enforcement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyImzvt6UT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21CUmU01Nv8

Real world fighting is messy and chaotic.
The first order for an armed cop is to keep his firearm away from the attacker ( typically right side back) and as such, sometimes things are harder to do because of it.
As for the second clip, striking someone and knocking them out/down is something that comes with LOTS of training and lets face it, the average cop doesn't put in the time.

GeneChing

11-01-2007, 12:44 PM

I did two past cover stories that were police oriented. The first was Magnum FORCE: Meet Grandmaster Alexander Tao, Founder of China's Police Combat Method, Jing Quan Dao (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=133) in our 2001 January/February issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=132). The second was with my own teacher, To Protect and To Serve: Master Tony Chen Teaches Kung Fu Secrets to Police (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=454) in our 2004 March/April issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=453).

I've always thought police restraint techniques are a fascinating application of martial arts. The goal state is different than most people expect. Cops aren't supposed to Rodney King anyone, so that limits their techniques. Their actions cannot be perceived as excessive force to our ever-watchful youtube community. Additionally, they have a lot of hardware on their belts, so that another factor. Can't let a perp grab your gear, especially not your piece. I'm always looking for more police oriented submissions (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php), but most of the real trainers aren't too forthcoming for many legal reasons, which is perfectly understandable.

Water Dragon

11-01-2007, 07:18 PM

Gene Ching advocates the police hang their weapons from their crotches.

Yum Cha

11-02-2007, 12:47 AM

Gene Ching advocates the police hang their weapons from their crotches.

Actually, I think he advocates use of an alternative Baton...

TaichiMantis

11-02-2007, 11:43 AM

Real world fighting is messy and chaotic.
The first order for an armed cop is to keep his firearm away from the attacker ( typically right side back) and as such, sometimes things are harder to do because of it..

Thanks, I wondered when someone would bring that up. Reminds me of some cases here where the cops had their guns taken (and yes, a couple were females).

Kind of brings new meaning to "guard position"...

Tai-Lik

11-04-2007, 08:16 PM

Gene Ching:

I've always thought police restraint techniques are a fascinating application of martial arts. The goal state is different than most people expect.

Yes this is very true.

Cops aren't supposed to Rodney King anyone, so that limits their techniques. Their actions cannot be perceived as excessive force

there are scales or levels of force that we use to justify measures or techniques we use to protect ourselves, others, and make arrest. The misconception by many people is that an Officer should only use techniques to restrain an arrestee. Excessive force is always a concern for police officers, so this is where scales or levels of force training comes in.

but most of the real trainers aren't too forthcoming for many legal reasons

Yes. i would suggest that martial arts instructors check out their local jurisdictions "Use Of Force Continuum" because you'll probably see that the same legal responsibility can be applied to civilians in any "self defense" situation. It will also give you a better understanding of your own rights, boundaries, limitations, when, how.... in situations where you have to use what you've learned in the Kwoon, dojo, or gym.

When discussing or teaching self defense techniques used in law enforcement, the level of force and when to use such force/technique should accompany the technique being explained.

Officers can used grappling, wrestling, striking, etc. at certain stages. The key is to identify and articulate each stage so the whatever technique you use is considered "reasonable".

This year :) jujitsu, krav magav, and shuai jiao are the popular styles being taught in our area. Next year it may be something totally different.

btw, cops nowadays eat Power Bars instead of donuts:D (at least not in public)