Ali As A Martiatl Artist

[mambi]

Any thoughts ?. Ali , for example , in the Martial Atrs? fearsome though (and forget about Anouki thats not the point) Do you even know realize the skills of this 220 lbs? Its always crossed my mind .Laddell ? forget it m. Action J ?not even in the same ring. The dude hAD THE SPEED AND AGILITY OF A 160 LBS WITH THE POWER OF >>>>>

[mambi]

No notions of who he was Huh..? Amazing no ones ever given any thought to this.To each...Maybe boxing is considered too primitive? Lee didnt! guess the thought is too scary. keep on dreamin little dreams folks.

[Takuan]

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/9281/stupidchartoa2.jpg

I like boxing, I just don't like not kicking is all. :)

[Lucas]

Ive always considered Western Boxing a form of Martial Art.


Ali definately was one of the greats, and a real crowd pleaser to boot.

The great thing about him was that he was just a naturally big guy, he didnt have to beef up to get heavy.

Probably why he was as agile as he was, he was just a natural, who IMO found his calling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any thoughts ?. Ali , for example , in the Martial Atrs? fearsome though (and forget about Anouki thats not the point) Do you even know realize the skills of this 220 lbs? Its always crossed my mind .Laddell ? forget it m. Action J ?not even in the same ring. The dude hAD THE SPEED AND AGILITY OF A 160 LBS WITH THE POWER OF >>>>>

Er...boxing is a MA and boxers are Martial artits, this is not a new view.
Boxing, wrestling, Kentucky mud slinging, are all MA :)

[Mook Jong]

I heard he had a sick ground game :rolleyes:;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I heard he had a sick ground game :rolleyes:;)

His anti-grapple was unique to say the least, just as Inoki !
LOL !

[lkfmdc]

Because people love the PERSON of Ali, because he has become a legend, and because of his great contributions to society (standing up againt the war, etc) people get angry when this is brought up, but since you asked

Ali's boxing had a lot of fundamental flaws. Flaws he made up for with natural speed and good strategy, but not always was that enough (Frazier broke his jaw in the first fight exactly due to one of his flaws, wrong head movement)

If you know the history of the Ali-Inoki debacle, you know how concerned Ali was when his trainers watched Inoki training for real with Karl Gotch (Lord rest his soul, RIP). The reason you saw such a bizarre match was because of the rules Ali asked for and got

In summary, Ali was a great man, made a great mark on boxing history, but had flaws as a boxer and would not have made a mark in MMA. Martial Artist? Yes, boxing is a martial art and if you include the moral aspects Ali had those as well, like I said, he was a great man

[GeneChing]

Check out Where Wushu Went Wrong: Wushu's Leading Champion, Zhao Changjun, Extols Traditional (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=679) by me and Gigi Oh from our 2006 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=680). If you have the print mag version, there's even a pic on page 36.

[lkfmdc]

Check out Where Wushu Went Wrong: Wushu's Leading Champion, Zhao Changjun, Extols Traditional (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=679) by me and Gigi Oh from our 2006 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=680). If you have the print mag version, there's even a pic on page 36.

A good article. I always laugh when they interview the "old timers" because they are so universally pro-fighting and pro-MMA ;)

Interesting take on why contemporary wushu is not so popular

too bad they are mucking up the san da as well

[mickey]

Greetings,

If there was ANY interaction between Zhao and Ali, it would have been friendly: they are both Moslem brothers. Additionally, Zhao was just a little kid in that photo. Ali was there circa 1977.

mickey

[Black Jack II]

When Ali was not being a unabashed racist he was a great martial artist.

[Mr Punch]

When Ali was not being a unabashed racist...
I'm not sure he was. He sure hung out with a lot of people who were, but at the time there were a lot of naive hangers on, and I think he was one of them. He was clever and charismatic, but I never pegged him as shrewd.

[Mr Punch]

Any thoughts ?. Ali , for example , in the Martial Atrs? fearsome though (and forget about Anouki thats not the point) Do you even know realize the skills of this 220 lbs? Its always crossed my mind .Laddell ? forget it m. Action J ?not even in the same ring. The dude hAD THE SPEED AND AGILITY OF A 160 LBS WITH THE POWER OF >>>>>


No notions of who he was Huh..? Amazing no ones ever given any thought to this.To each...Maybe boxing is considered too primitive? Lee didnt! guess the thought is too scary. keep on dreamin little dreams folks.LOL at the OP having a fit cos nobody responded to his barely English post. FFS pal, if English isn't your first language, fine, but don't expect everybody to decipher your ramblings.

[Black Jack II]

Well, lets start off by saying Ali was human and as such is as guilty of making mistakes as the next guy, but I for one never fell in to his fanclub, personally he came across like a golem like douchebag whenever he opened his mouth.

The guy was a sexist, in specific to his Islamic dogma. He fathered a number of kids out of wedlock, one with a teenage girl. In 1975 or 1976 I believe he called for the lynching of interracial couples, he always seemed to be driving a spike between the races, plus he was a draft dodger.

This guy was no Joe Louis or Jackie Robinson.

[Mr Punch]

The guy was a sexist, in specific to his Islamic dogma. He fathered a number of kids out of wedlock, one with a teenage girl. Fair enough, so he was an asshat in many ways, but you did say he was an unabashed racist which was the bit I was disagreeing with.
In 1975 or 1976 I believe he called for the lynching of interracial couplesFair enough, I was wrong - the guy's a ****!

[Black Jack II]

Fair enough, I was wrong - the guy's a ****!

Heh, yes he is an walking asshat.:D

I wonder what his daughter thinks of him?

[Yum Cha]

LOL @ Ross dissing Ali's style.

You're good Ross, maybe even as good as you think, but you ain't no Angelo Dundee matey.

Whatever unorthodox style he played, and there was more than head movement, he didn't break rules, he set the new benchmarks.

Maybe you weren't around in the day, but nobody touched Ali's head until he was already an old man, going for his 2nd, 3rd championship. Look at his face today, compared to Joe Frazer or any of those other old boxers. He should have retired earlier, in his mid 30's he took some beatings, but by than he was just a shadow of the Champ he once was.

Frazer didn't break his jaw, Norton did, several years later, if I am not mistaken.

No respect, no respect. Ali was and remains The Greatest. Tactics and strategy, footwork and technique.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A good article. I always laugh when they interview the "old timers" because they are so universally pro-fighting and pro-MMA ;)

Interesting take on why contemporary wushu is not so popular

too bad they are mucking up the san da as well

I don't know of any real TMA that is against fighting and MMA, not even one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL @ Ross dissing Ali's style.

You're good Ross, maybe even as good as you think, but you ain't no Angelo Dundee matey.

Whatever unorthodox style he played, and there was more than head movement, he didn't break rules, he set the new benchmarks.

Maybe you weren't around in the day, but nobody touched Ali's head until he was already an old man, going for his 2nd, 3rd championship. Look at his face today, compared to Joe Frazer or any of those other old boxers. He should have retired earlier, in his mid 30's he took some beatings, but by than he was just a shadow of the Champ he once was.

Frazer didn't break his jaw, Norton did, several years later, if I am not mistaken.

No respect, no respect. Ali was and remains The Greatest. Tactics and strategy, footwork and technique.

I wouldn't call him the greatest, revolutionary for sure and the penultimate entertainer, yes, but the greatest boxer ever?
No.

[lkfmdc]

LOL @ Ross dissing Ali's style.

You're good Ross, maybe even as good as you think, but you ain't no Angelo Dundee matey.



I guess you don't realize that this opinion of Ali is widely held among respected boxing analysts. And, again, it is obvious in his fights (if you know what you are looking at)




Maybe you weren't around in the day, but nobody touched Ali's head until he was already an old man, going for his 2nd, 3rd championship.



Ali-Frazier ONE: March 8, 1971

Again, people get irrational when you discuss Ali (sort of like Bruce Lee) but the facts remain

[GeneChing]

I met Ali. That must have been about 15 years ago, long after he contracted Parkinson's. I've done a lot of work with people suffering mental damage (and I don't mean just all of you here on the forum :rolleyes:) but real survivors of traumatic brain injuries. I could totally see the fire behind Ali's eyes despite the Parkinson's. He moved slowly, of course, a common symptom of his affliction. But his eyes were dialed. He had more focus than anyone I've ever met with that horrible illness, and arguably more focus than many people I've met without it (and now I am talking about you forum folk, especially the iconoclasts ;)).

mickey, I was being facetious with my post - just trying to get people to read, like always. I figured when people read it, they'd get it.

[lkfmdc]

I've done a lot of work with people suffering mental damage (and I don't mean just all of you here on the forum :rolleyes:)



I feel as if I have been insulted ;)

[Vajramusti]

By one standard or another one can always find flaws. Angelo Dundee knew that Ali would pull his head back. But good trainers leave some things alone and work on preparing their fighter-the best possible way. In his prime Ali got away with his alleged flaws. A fighter is also to be judged by the opponents he handled.

He cannot be imitated by everyone because he used his build to his advantage-his style is not for every one specially witha different build..

In Ali's time the people he fought provided a greater gathering of talent than is usually the case-Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers, George Foreman, Sonny Liston were fearsome heavy hitters by any standard. Patterson had some of the fastest hands. Apart from Dundee- his opponents had some of the best trainers who knew Ali's faults. Frazier, Norton, Williams and many others.He wasnt fed patsies.His opponents would be ona good whos who list.

Ali used his reach, his feet, his jabs were faster than that of top middleweights- but above all he could adjust and think on his feet.

Boxers eventually decline- so did Ali.That's the tragedy of the sport...seeing Louis "wrestling" in old age to get some change.

Ali's social involvements are also greater than most boxers, artists and athletes. He stood up on a civil rights issue and paid the price of being put on the shelf in his prime time.He had the courage and honesty to evolve in his faith-moving from separatism to more universal issues.
He has raised money for children's programs, for Barrows neurological institute in Phoenix where he lived till recently.

I met him once when he set upa training camp in Northern Arizona for one of his fights. After his decline- I met him again at Mother Teresa's Sealdah station childrens home in Kolkata.
He was and is the real McCoy.

joy chaudhuri

[Yum Cha]

I guess you don't realize that this opinion of Ali is widely held among respected boxing analysts. And, again, it is obvious in his fights (if you know what you are looking at)


I understand what you are saying, and I'm not disagreeing that that opinion may be held by very qualified coaches and boxers, yourself included, however, the point I'm trying to make is that when someone takes an unorthodox technique to the top of the game as successfully as Ali, you have to reconsider the blanket statement.

When someone takes an unorthodox technique to the top of the game, you have to look twice at it, and learn.

And, you can't deny, few indeed ever touched his face. In his prime, he was untouchable.



Ali-Frazier ONE: March 8, 1971



Sorry, I don't believe you are right, I googled to confirm, and found no reference to a broken jaw, other than Norton, and having watched the fight live, I don't remember any broken jaw, just the whupping. Perhaps you have a reference you can share? I'm willing to admit I don't carry all the facts around on the top of my head.




Again, people get irrational when you discuss Ali (sort of like Bruce Lee) but the facts remain

Are you suggesting that somehow I'm being irrational? And why? Because I joined the thread and made a statement contrary to yours? Just curious.

[Yum Cha]

I wouldn't call him the greatest, revolutionary for sure and the penultimate entertainer, yes, but the greatest boxer ever?
No.


Hey Ronin,
You a Sugar Ray man? Marciano? Lewis?

[lkfmdc]

nobody touched Ali's head until he was already an old man, going for his 2nd, 3rd championship.






having watched the fight live, I don't remember any broken jaw, just the whupping.



Italics are mine, of course, but aren't these contradictory statements? Frazier I was actually the lead in to what most consider Ali's golden era (winning title a second time, beating Foreman, etc)

Ali wasn't an "old man" in 1971 (or when he fought Norton) and yet both times he got tagged. To the best of my recollection, Ali didn't immediately admit it but Frazier had broken his jaw. There is, this I know, a great picture of a very dejected Ali staying in the New Yorker hotel after the fight

"irrational" refers to a knee jerk reaction that because of the achievemets of Ali, it isn't "possible" there were serious flaws in his boxing style. Ali had superior hand speed and uncanny footwork, which made up for his bad head movement MANY times, but not always. His jab, often praised, was in fact a "backhand" and technically illegal. Being Ali, he also got away with clear rule infractions, such as holding and hitting. The first "dirty boxing" wasn't Randy Couture, it was Ali!

"irrational" would be not being able to discuss the flaws in his style just due to the fact it was Ali

[lkfmdc]

Hey Ronin,
You a Sugar Ray man? Marciano? Lewis?

Not only among heavyweights, but certainly P4P, there are many boxers whose actual technical skills surpased Ali's. Alis is a legend for much more than his boxing

[Yum Cha]

Italics are mine, of course, but aren't these contradictory statements? Frazier I was actually the lead in to what most consider Ali's golden era (winning title a second time, beating Foreman, etc)

Ali wasn't an "old man" in 1971 (or when he fought Norton) and yet both times he got tagged. To the best of my recollection, Ali didn't immediately admit it but Frazier had broken his jaw. There is, this I know, a great picture of a very dejected Ali staying in the New Yorker hotel after the fight


So, you reckon the Frazier broken jaw was a secret, admited in an interview sometime, somewhere that you read? I know he took a beating...

Foreman was his first defeat, first time he got whupped.

First went pro in 1960. First defeated in 1971, at 29 years of age. (b. 1942)
Last fight 1981 at 39. 21 years in the ring, 55 bouts.

It was definately a career of two halves, the before and after the war periods. Golden, well, call it as you see it. Most people agree he spend his best years on suspension as the reigning champ. 67-70.

Was he an old man at 29 afther 3 years off? Certainly in the middle of his career. I don't know, are there many 30 year old heavyweight champs? Seems old in the fight game to me.



"irrational".... it isn't "possible" there were serious flaws in his boxing style. Ali had superior hand speed and uncanny footwork, which made up for his bad head movement MANY times, but not always. His jab, often praised, was in fact a "backhand" and technically illegal.

"irrational" would be not being able to discuss the flaws in his style just due to the fact it was Ali

Yea, I know about his jab, debatable. I think you're missing my point about his "bad" head movement. You know, the familiar little rant about not being shackled by techniques and rules, but finding what works and working it....

I accept you might not train a fighter to do the same, but it still worked for him.

addendum: Don't go trying to compare light and heavy, that's another can of worms. i.e. lightweights that pummel each other a thousand times over being better than a guy that lays another out with one powerful shot....<grin>

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey Ronin,
You a Sugar Ray man? Marciano? Lewis?

Sugar Ray Robinson, though I think that all of the "greats" had something to offer, in many ways I put Tyson right up there too.
It pains me that Lennox never had someone to truly challenge him, he may have been a great one.
Ali was special in many ways, his flamboyance and charisma made him larger than life and fights with Frazier, Foreman and such are what make champions champions.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Yum Cha,

Ali did receive a broken jaw from Joe Frazier (it was even mentioned in the papers). It was broken a second time by Ken Norton. Ali returned the favor to Ken Norton the second time they met and it changed Ken Norton's fighting posture for the rest of his career.


mickey

[Yum Cha]

Mickey,
Thanks for the confirmation. And I thought I was an Ali fan.....<sigh>


Ronin,
I was actually thinking about Sugar Ray Leonard, but Robinson certainly hits the same category.

Tyson? Maybe the best in one aspect, but lacking in so many others, especially voice. :D
I always wondered if he wasn't Michael Jackon's evil ******* brother....

Myself, I prefer the style boxers, not the 'sluggers' and king hitters. Mind you, I got respect for them all - its all good.

Yea, I agree, the Ali, Forman, Fraiser, Holms, Norton era was probably the best of boxing I'll ever see.

[diego]

I guess you don't realize that this opinion of Ali is widely held among respected boxing analysts. And, again, it is obvious in his fights (if you know what you are looking at)



Ali-Frazier ONE: March 8, 1971

Again, people get irrational when you discuss Ali (sort of like Bruce Lee) but the facts remain

what am i suppossed to be looking at? I'm googling boxing head movement and found this after a quick search: "Its kind of bad advise telling some guy to move his head like Ali did. He was special and he could get away with making a lot of technical mistakes like pulling his head straight back away from punches. I'd say look at Bernard Hopkins for defence cause his is more textbook defence. Maybe when you get more experiance you can experiment with movement like Ali or some of the other really spectacular onesbut right now at this level just try and stay with the proper way to do it.

it depends on how much you weigh. i don't believe anyone weighing 190+ can try to move like ali and succeed, they would be too slow. even ali himself fough at middleweight and light hw in the amateurs, so he was small then, and when he gained weight, he was able to retain his speed.

i weigh 167, so i am able to copy ali's style, not to mention i was about 22 lbs lighter a year ago, so that is how i'm so fast. when i gain weight, i will, with certain calisthenics and basic exercises keep my speed like ali did. that is how to do it."

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-52774.html

buddies comment about ali was special so he could "pull his head back" comment got me thinking ali was applying advanced TMA principals into his boxing....reminds me of that one saying in lions roar where they talk about the footwork to beat everyone elses...use unorthodox to **** up the minds of those textbook...ali's horse stance was weak at the moment so his state of taichi was out of grace and that is why his chin got tapped:)

I don't know much about head motion theory except "PROTECT YA ****IN' NECK" but you mentioned head movement in this and the lama thread in the southern forum so now you got me all curious.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mickey,
Thanks for the confirmation. And I thought I was an Ali fan.....<sigh>


Ronin,
I was actually thinking about Sugar Ray Leonard, but Robinson certainly hits the same category.

Tyson? Maybe the best in one aspect, but lacking in so many others, especially voice. :D
I always wondered if he wasn't Michael Jackon's evil ******* brother....

Myself, I prefer the style boxers, not the 'sluggers' and king hitters. Mind you, I got respect for them all - its all good.

Yea, I agree, the Ali, Forman, Fraiser, Holms, Norton era was probably the best of boxing I'll ever see.

Leonard had the goods and he played the game better than anyone, case in point his win over Hagler.
Can't forget Tommy Hearns.

[Yum Cha]

Leonard had the goods and he played the game better than anyone, case in point his win over Hagler.
Can't forget Tommy Hearns.

Yea, that was another one of those talent rich divisions in its own little golden era.

If you want to go even lighter, ever watched Kosta Tsu fight? He's a right proper pee wee, and when he fights its like a cartoon, his arms turn into blurry clouds with stars coming out of them....