Disadvantages of sparring?

[IRONMONK]

I'm not anti-sparring but I would like to see everyone opinions on the disadvantages/limitations of sparring?

[t_niehoff]

I'm not anti-sparring but I would like to see everyone opinions on the disadvantages/limitations of sparring?

The main disadvantage/limitation is in not understanding how it fits into our developmental process.

It is very difficult to learn a new fighting skill (i.e., be able to physically perform it comfortably and reliably) in a high pressure, realistic environment like sparring. Too many other things will be going on for you to be able to focus your attention on that new thing. So unrealistic drills and exercises, like chi sao for instance, which don't correspond to the realities of fighting, enable us to learn and develop new skills (to the point of "knowing" them).

But, realistic fighting skills (being able to use those thingss we learned under realistic conditions) only come from realistic practice, which means either realistic sparring or realistic drilling (which are 'snippets' or'situations' from sparring that are repeated so as to concentrate on that specific skill).

And, btw, another problem with sparring is that often what is called "sparring" is really play (pretend) fighting, where what is being done is not realistic (doesn't correspond to what will really go on in a fight). Play fighting is just another unrealistic exercise and can't develop realistic skills.

[k gledhill]

sparring with gloves and head gear can lead one to believe a fight will last longer than they do for real...jaws break, noses get smashed, teeth shatter ,eyeballs ooze gook over your thumbs and things get really bloody real quick [ good stance, blood is slippery] kicking for real can make your partner a cripple in the blink of an eye....giving pain and lots of it , that is what sparring is teaching you and how to avoid it .....but like T said its palying to get used to the idea of violence. You are training to become violent and administer pain in a scientific manner , not cave man style :D
Sparring one on one always leads you to believe this is how a fight happens , start sparring 2-3 guys regularly and imagine anyone has a knife , first come first served avoid wrastling unless you have no choice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not anti-sparring but I would like to see everyone opinions on the disadvantages/limitations of sparring?

The pros outweight the cons in sparring, but there are some concerns that shoudl be addressed.
Most are aware of the "intent" issue so as long as one realizes what they are doing and WHY, they should be fine.
Hard contact sparring can, and some say should, lead to injuries and as such there is down time involved.
Full contact sparring is a different issue.
Most often than not, protective gear is the solution, but also can be the problem in some cases.
Nevertheless, hard sparring ( with the contact level high enough to keep reactions honest) is crucial in learning what works and what doesn't for you.
Again, the pros (many) outweight the cons(few).

[william]

Speaking from experience:

I did two years of wing chun, no sparring, drills chi sao, etc etc Then moved and went to a kickboxing class.

With gloves on facing someone else who wanted to fight me (a situation that is not that unrealistic in real life) I got my ass kicked. First thing the guard we had used was always hands out in front, any one with any boxing skills will just go straight through that. The idea of chain punching any one just seemed so unrealistic, anyone who is slipping ducking and weaving throwing well timed jabs, cross etc, chain punches were a bit of a joke.

There is far to much emphasis on attacker 'leaving the arm out'. Since my experience I now train with boxing, kickboxing and BJJ. I was an ardent kung fu guy, but there came a point when I looked at it and thought, I am doing this not for physical exercise, or to make friends, but to learn how to look after myself. The old adage of kickboxing BJJ being a sport and it being different on the street, may be true, but my bets are that an MMA would do better than a Kung fu guy in a 'street situation'. I am generalizing I know, but in my short time with kung fu 75% of the time was spent doing drill routines, against partners holding their arm out, and not fighting back. I still do drills, but now there is always a live component and much much more time spent live i.e. sparring, whether on the ground or standing. after a few month with the boxing MMA I felt much more confident than I had with two years of wing chun.

What i think about the question? To anyone who hasn't sparred much, go find a friendly boxer or BJJ guy, and ask to have a spar. If you feel confident that your skills were effective, fine, if not you may want to re evaluate your reasons for training?

W


I really think MMA has changed things, those guys are the most skilled fighters in the world, perhaps like the kung fu masters of old. Perhaps years ago the guys who very best at fighting were the kung fu guys, more experience more challenge matches etc. Now I think the top MMA guys re the kung fu "hard work" masters

[LoneTiger108]

I really think MMA has changed things, those guys are the most skilled fighters in the world, perhaps like the kung fu masters of old. Perhaps years ago the guys who very best at fighting were the kung fu guys, more experience more challenge matches etc. Now I think the top MMA guys re the kung fu "hard work" masters

What makes you think that any 'Kung Fu Master' was the best Fighter in the World? How many Masters do you know would admit to fighting for competition, points or prize money?

Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?

MMA has done no more than Bruce Lee did. It has helped the minority learn something and the majority learn nothing! Nobody has all the answers, and I personally feel that competitive fighting is a great tool to gauge progress for the young, not so great to exhibit the skills gained in later years...

[unkokusai]

sparring with gloves and head gear can lead one to believe a fight will last longer than they do for real...jaws break, noses get smashed, teeth shatter ,eyeballs ooze gook over your thumbs and things get really bloody real quick [ good stance, blood is slippery] kicking for real can make your partner a cripple in the blink of an eye....giving pain and lots of it , that is what sparring is teaching you and how to avoid it .....but like T said its palying to get used to the idea of violence. You are training to become violent and administer pain in a scientific manner , not cave man style :D
Sparring one on one always leads you to believe this is how a fight happens , start sparring 2-3 guys regularly and imagine anyone has a knife , first come first served avoid wrastling unless you have no choice.



So much :rolleyes: in that post...

[t_niehoff]

What makes you think that any 'Kung Fu Master' was the best Fighter in the World? How many Masters do you know would admit to fighting for competition, points or prize money?


Certainly none of them have proved they could fight worth a bean.



Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?


How can you determine any person's fighting performance (skill) level, their ability to really use their "kung fu" for example, except by fighting and with really good people? You can't know if you are a good fighter if you don't fight and don't fight with really good people. This is true for any athletic activity.



MMA has done no more than Bruce Lee did. It has helped the minority learn something and the majority learn nothing! Nobody has all the answers, and I personally feel that competitive fighting is a great tool to gauge progress for the young, not so great to exhibit the skills gained in later years...

There are huge differences between the Bruce Lee and the MMA phenomena. The first was largely fantasy driven, the second reality driven.

I agree that competitive fighting is a young person's game. As you get older, your body can't take and recover from that level of training, abuse, etc. that it puts on you. However, fighting skills are only gained by fighting. Dan Inosanto earned his BJJ BB at 70, and he was constantly out on the mats sparring to earn it. He gained it (the skills) in later years, but he gained it the same way as the younger folks do.

[LoneTiger108]

How can you determine any person's fighting performance (skill) level, their ability to really use their "kung fu" for example, except by fighting and with really good people? You can't know if you are a good fighter if you don't fight and don't fight with really good people. This is true for any athletic activity.

I can only repeat myself again;

"Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?"

[t_niehoff]

I can only repeat myself again;

"Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?"

I find this sort of statement to be a hilarious example of TCMA silliness.

A person can only be judged by his performance in fighting. Whether it is in a cage, in the gym, in a ring, etc. it really doesn't matter. After all, if you can fight at a high elvel in a cage, you can fight at a high level anywhere. If you can't fight well, the venue won't make a difference.

The other laugh is the "allow his/her students" part. If his/her students aren't fighting, then they will have no fighting skill. And, any "student" who allows their "Master" to tell them what they can or cannot do is a sheep.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can only repeat myself again;

"Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?"

Why would a master be against students testing their skills in a real fight or as close to it in a controlled environment that one can get ?

[osprey3883]

Hello,
IMO your approach to sparing has a lot to do with what you gain. If you go in with the attitude of "point sparing" or the idea that one landed blow leads to a reset IMO you are training with the wrong mindset. One blow rarely finishes a fight, IMO you need to take a "beat down" mindset into any sparring session.

Matt

[k gledhill]

So much :rolleyes: in that post...

that reply speaks volumes :D

[nschmelzer]

I train wing chun right now. I love wing chun for a lot of reasons. But the more I train, and older I get (and see people come in and out of the martial arts, get injured, get bored, get fat, etc.) - the more I have come to believe that combat fighting (sports or real) is at least 50% purely mental. That is, someone with a lot more "skill" can get beat by someone with a lot more "killer instinct" (also called "heart").

Of course, the one that has the killer instanct, and can channel that instinct into techinques, well, that person is a great fighter. Unfortunately, most martial arts programs neglect this 50%+ "killer instinct" factor. Probably because you either "get it" or you don't. It is hard to teach the killer instinct. (By the way - this instinct applies in most types of competitive sports).

It is also part of my experience that a person's "killer instinct" is only revealed when it is "under fire." That is, you don't know whether someone has the killer instinct until that person takes a few punches to the face, or kicks to the body. How they react will show how much killer instinct they have. Will they turn their heads? Will they collapse? Will they retreat? Will they drop their hands? Or will they smile? Or will they act like nothing happened? Or will they stay focused on what they are trying to accomplish (e.g., inflict some hurt on the other guy)?

Assuming combat success (sport or real) is mostly (50% or more) a function of one's mind and mental attitude (again, one man's opinion), the question becomes: Does sparring help people get or cultivate the killer instinct? Or does it water down a person's killer instinct with pads and rules and half-hearted techniques?

In my opinion, both responses are 100% correct.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I train wing chun right now. I love wing chun for a lot of reasons. But the more I train, and older I get (and see people come in and out of the martial arts, get injured, get bored, get fat, etc.) - the more I have come to believe that combat fighting (sports or real) is at least 50% purely mental. That is, someone with a lot more "skill" can get beat by someone with a lot more "killer instinct" (also called "heart").

Of course, the one that has the killer instanct, and can channel that instinct into techinques, well, that person is a great fighter. Unfortunately, most martial arts programs neglect this 50%+ "killer instinct" factor. Probably because you either "get it" or you don't. It is also part of my experience that a person's "killer instinct" is only revealed when it is "under fire." That is, you don't know whether someone has the killer instinct until that person takes a few punches to the face, or kicks to the body. How they react will show how much killer instinct they have. Will they turn their heads? Will they collapse? Will they retreat? Will they drop their hands? Or will they smile? Or will they act like nothing happened? Or will they stay focused on what they are trying to accomplish (e.g., inflict some hurt on the other guy)?

Assuming combat success (sport or real) is mostly (50% or more) a function of one's mind and mental attitude (again, one man's opinion), the question becomes: Does sparring help people get or cultivate the killer instinct? Or does it water down a person's killer instinct with pads and rules and half-hearted techniques?

In my opinion, both responses are 100% correct.

Understanding Intent is all that is needed and you can bring the "danger" into a safe training environment.
Your post is right on the button.

[sihing]

I train wing chun right now. I love wing chun for a lot of reasons. But the more I train, and older I get (and see people come in and out of the martial arts, get injured, get bored, get fat, etc.) - the more I have come to believe that combat fighting (sports or real) is at least 50% purely mental. That is, someone with a lot more "skill" can get beat by someone with a lot more "killer instinct" (also called "heart").

Of course, the one that has the killer instanct, and can channel that instinct into techinques, well, that person is a great fighter. Unfortunately, most martial arts programs neglect this 50%+ "killer instinct" factor. Probably because you either "get it" or you don't. It is hard to teach the killer instinct. (By the way - this instinct applies in most types of competitive sports).

It is also part of my experience that a person's "killer instinct" is only revealed when it is "under fire." That is, you don't know whether someone has the killer instinct until that person takes a few punches to the face, or kicks to the body. How they react will show how much killer instinct they have. Will they turn their heads? Will they collapse? Will they retreat? Will they drop their hands? Or will they smile? Or will they act like nothing happened? Or will they stay focused on what they are trying to accomplish (e.g., inflict some hurt on the other guy)?

Assuming combat success (sport or real) is mostly (50% or more) a function of one's mind and mental attitude (again, one man's opinion), the question becomes: Does sparring help people get or cultivate the killer instinct? Or does it water down a person's killer instinct with pads and rules and half-hearted techniques?

In my opinion, both responses are 100% correct.

Good post, and what you said is why talking about fighting effectiveness and comparing styles is a useless endeavour to engage in on a internet forum. All we can do here is discuss concepts, theory, and relate experiences back and forth. Until you met the people behind the keyboards, and interact with them, then and only then will you know what they are all about. Wing Chun is a tool, how we use that tool is up to us as individuals. MMA vs. this art or that is kindergarden mentality, but all to prevelant on the forums nowadays, which is fine by me if you enjoy wasting time:)


James

[Ultimatewingchun]

sparring with gloves and head gear can lead one to believe a fight will last longer than they do for real...jaws break, noses get smashed, teeth shatter ,eyeballs ooze gook over your thumbs and things get really bloody real quick [ good stance, blood is slippery] kicking for real can make your partner a cripple in the blink of an eye....giving pain and lots of it , that is what sparring is teaching you and how to avoid it .....but like T said its palying to get used to the idea of violence. You are training to become violent and administer pain in a scientific manner , not cave man style :D
Sparring one on one always leads you to believe this is how a fight happens , start sparring 2-3 guys regularly and imagine anyone has a knife , first come first served avoid wrastling unless you have no choice.


***I AGREE with unko. That post was spot on. But like sanjuro said, when all is said and done, the pros far outweigh the cons when it comes to full contact sparring being advantageous.

[unkokusai]

***I AGREE with unko.


LOL! Just keep repeating it over and over!



:D

[imperialtaichi]

...the more I have come to believe that combat fighting (sports or real) is at least 50% purely mental. That is, someone with a lot more "skill" can get beat by someone with a lot more "killer instinct" (also called "heart")...

...Unfortunately, most martial arts programs neglect this 50%+ "killer instinct" factor...

True, in a real fight, the killer instinct is important. There are martial arts that builds up one's killer instinct through various methods, such as through visualization techniques and constant stress/trauma.

Unfortunately, this sort of arts often corrupts the mind of the practitioners. For example, one of the masters I know in Beijing trains with such "killer" thoughts, that every moves he visualizes killing the opponent, that he became more and more bad tempered. Say one wrong word and he would blast his head of, then flick back to normal, then flick back and to the violent self again. Very unpredictable.

The ex-boxing champion Costa Tzu (might have mispelled) said that every time he prepared himself for a fight, he would turn into a violent bad tempered person for months, and during this time even his children would become afraid of him. So he had chosen to retire at his peak, for the love of his family.

This "killing instinct" thing is a very expensive price to pay, for the ability to do well in real fights, when real fights do not happen all that often.

Cheers,
John

[sihing]

True, in a real fight, the killer instinct is important. There are martial arts that builds up one's killer instinct through various methods, such as through visualization techniques and constant stress/trauma.

Unfortunately, this sort of arts often corrupts the mind of the practitioners. For example, one of the masters I know in Beijing trains with such "killer" thoughts, that every moves he visualizes killing the opponent, that he became more and more bad tempered. Say one wrong word and he would blast his head of, then flick back to normal, then flick back and to the violent self again. Very unpredictable.

The ex-boxing champion Costa Tzu (might have mispelled) said that every time he prepared himself for a fight, he would turn into a violent bad tempered person for months, and during this time even his children would become afraid of him. So he had chosen to retire at his peak, for the love of his family.

This "killing instinct" thing is a very expensive price to pay, for the ability to do well in real fights, when real fights do not happen all that often.

Cheers,
John

Sifu Lam says that for WC people, the Bart Jum Dao does this for them, for when you play with the knives it brings the killer instinct out. He doesn't like playing with them much, similar to the stories above, as it makes him irritable and not a very nice person. You really don't want to pi$$ him off much when your are his practice partner, he can put you in alot of pain. I remember he was in a good mood, and just demonstrating and simple reverse low round kick (like a low cresent kick) on my leg, without trying he made it hurt bad, real casual like. He's got heavy type power in his legs and fists, with killer instinct behind it, jeez, I wouldn't want to be on the end of that wrath:)

James

[AmanuJRY]

Unfortunately, most martial arts programs neglect this 50%+ "killer instinct" factor. Probably because you either "get it" or you don't. It is hard to teach the killer instinct. (By the way - this instinct applies in most types of competitive sports).

The military has fine tuned the idea of training 'killer instinct'. The fact is a good percentage of people are unable to 'go there' mentally. That is why the Samuri believed that warriors were in a different class of people, and so do I.

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is where one might possibly enter the realm of the esoteric and the occult - as regards martial arts training. And a place where even a subtle slight (and inappropriate) turn to the left can take one on a path that eventually leads far, far away from the main road - and into possible disaster and tragedy.

It's no coincidence that certain held over negative (and highly secret) Samurai and Ninja influences in early 20th century Japan played a great role in the eventual alliance with Nazi Germany.

Violence when used in any other way other than in legitimate self defense always brings difficult karmic consequences in some form or another.

Professional fighters need to take great care in this regard. Look what the "I'm a bad ass and if you get in my way I just might eat your children" mentality/tough guy image-persona of one Mike Tyson has done to the guy's life. He's friggin' crazy.

I had to have a very similar conversation once with one of my best students during a sparring match that he was having with another one of my top guys - as I was overseeing it. He was really starting to go over the line - where sparring was about an inch away from becoming an all out street fight. And someone was definitely going to get hurt - since both of these guys were skilled and aggressive.

I told him that I wasn't going to allow that in my class. That I didn't see my mission as one of trainer of violent men who would then go through their lives as bullies. He got the message. (And in truth there were occasions when I had to hear that same kind of lecture myself when I was younger - from my father).

The best martial artists, imo, hover near the edge - but never cross it unless something very serious is really on the line.

[AmanuJRY]

This is where one might possibly enter the realm of the esoteric and the occult - as regards martial arts training. And a place where even a subtle slight (and inappropriate) turn to the left can take one on a path that eventually leads far, far away from the main road - and into possible disaster and tragedy.

It's no coincidence that certain held over negative Samurai and Ninja influences in early 20th century Japan played a great role in the eventual alliance with Nazi Germany.

Violence when used in any other way other than in legitimate self defense always brings difficult karmic consequences in some form or another.

Professional fighters need to take great care in this regard. Look what the "I'm a bad ass and I'll eat your children" mentality of one Mike Tyson has done to the guy's life. He's friggin' crazy.

That's why a person has to be prepared mentally for it. If given certain 'power' without the judgement to use it properly...it will be abused.

That goes for more than just MA ability...

[YungChun]

Look what the "I'm a bad ass and if you get in my way I just might eat your children" mentality/tough guy image-persona of one Mike Tyson has done to the guy's life. He's friggin' crazy.

And he always was IMO..

The fact that this may have helped him be a good boxer doesn't change who he was/is---a nut..

I think those folks who have been through the mill, tough times, a rough upbringing, or are genetically disposed to it have the edge..

Question is how to get it; can it be turned on and off, taught, etc..

Holding the knives? Oye..

[AmanuJRY]

Question is how to get it; can it be turned on and off, taught, etc..


For this, I believe, the answer is as variable as the people in question.

Can it be taught? Yes...anyone can be brainwashed/programmed.
More importantly can the morals be taught along with it???;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The military has fine tuned the idea of training 'killer instinct'. The fact is a good percentage of people are unable to 'go there' mentally. That is why the Samuri believed that warriors were in a different class of people, and so do I.

100% correct.

[t_niehoff]

I train wing chun right now. I love wing chun for a lot of reasons. But the more I train, and older I get (and see people come in and out of the martial arts, get injured, get bored, get fat, etc.) - the more I have come to believe that combat fighting (sports or real) is at least 50% purely mental. That is, someone with a lot more "skill" can get beat by someone with a lot more "killer instinct" (also called "heart").

Of course, the one that has the killer instanct, and can channel that instinct into techinques, well, that person is a great fighter. Unfortunately, most martial arts programs neglect this 50%+ "killer instinct" factor. Probably because you either "get it" or you don't. It is hard to teach the killer instinct. (By the way - this instinct applies in most types of competitive sports).

It is also part of my experience that a person's "killer instinct" is only revealed when it is "under fire." That is, you don't know whether someone has the killer instinct until that person takes a few punches to the face, or kicks to the body. How they react will show how much killer instinct they have. Will they turn their heads? Will they collapse? Will they retreat? Will they drop their hands? Or will they smile? Or will they act like nothing happened? Or will they stay focused on what they are trying to accomplish (e.g., inflict some hurt on the other guy)?

Assuming combat success (sport or real) is mostly (50% or more) a function of one's mind and mental attitude (again, one man's opinion), the question becomes: Does sparring help people get or cultivate the killer instinct? Or does it water down a person's killer instinct with pads and rules and half-hearted techniques?

In my opinion, both responses are 100% correct.

I've heard the fighting-is-50%-mental stuff before. But I don't buy it.

Is tennis or basketball or football 50% mental? Fighting, whether boxing or wrestling or WCK or however you do it, is the same as any other athletic activity.

As I see it, certainly there is a mental component to any athletic activity. But I think that oftentimes in the "martial arts" it is over-emphasized and/or incorrectly emphasized. (Perhaps part of the fantasy with the kung-fu-is-about-life-and-death crowd).

If you train to do any activity by doing that activity (the only way to develop significantly better skills at doing the activity), you will naturally develop the required mental aspects of that activity -- because that is a part of doing the activity itself. It's the same with fighting. If you do the amount of quality sparring it takes to develop good, competant levels of skill, you will just by doing that develop the mental aspects of the game. That's the great thing about functional training -- it's holistic, it develops the whole range of aspects that go into playing the game.

The only problem I've seen is that some people going in have a either a fear of fighting (of getting hurt or hurting the other person) or have some sort of "moral" objections to fighting that hinder them. (And there are other inhibitions, for example, some people are 'claustrphobic' on the ground and panic when they find themselves in certain situations). Most of these will also subside through practice (sparring), through acclimation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've heard the fighting-is-50%-mental stuff before. But I don't buy it.

Is tennis or basketball or football 50% mental? Fighting, whether boxing or wrestling or WCK or however you do it, is the same as any other athletic activity.

As I see it, certainly there is a mental component to any athletic activity. But I think that oftentimes in the "martial arts" it is over-emphasized and/or incorrectly emphasized. (Perhaps part of the fantasy with the kung-fu-is-about-life-and-death crowd).

If you train to do any activity by doing that activity (the only way to develop significantly better skills at doing the activity), you will naturally develop the required mental aspects of that activity -- because that is a part of doing the activity itself. It's the same with fighting. If you do the amount of quality sparring it takes to develop good, competant levels of skill, you will just by doing that develop the mental aspects of the game. That's the great thing about functional training -- it's holistic, it develops the whole range of aspects that go into playing the game.

The only problem I've seen is that some people going in have a either a fear of fighting (of getting hurt or hurting the other person) or have some sort of "moral" objections to fighting that hinder them. (And there are other inhibitions, for example, some people are 'claustrphobic' on the ground and panic when they find themselves in certain situations). Most of these will also subside through practice (sparring), through acclimation.

And yet the mental aspect is trained in all forms of physical training, from visualizations to the concerns that "his head wasn't in the game" and so forth and so on.
The mental aspect is even more crucial at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a "mental edge".

[Ultimatewingchun]

The mental aspect is even more crucial at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a "mental edge". (sanjuro)


***ABSOLUTELY.

[k gledhill]

Disadvantages of sparring in VT can come from only fighting VT ...I was taught to never fight against another VT , always one doing any random thing , boxing , thai, wrestling etc...while one did VT . A maxim was VT never fights VT , only 'quality control' :D....through this one will discover very quickly what needs to be done , primary is mobility on a clockface on the ground ,not lead leg front and back motions ....tan sao moving off ones centerline wont work unless it stays and you move ;) and fast !
the system is geared for a continous attack, so sparring in the tradional sense of , throwing a few punches and backing off isnt going to develop the 'attack'. VT is the art of attack, making it into a point tag sparring session can be detrimental to the 'goal'. I act in sparring as a non complying yet coaching attackee being countered....if theVT student backs off I will attack them as if it was me doing the VT. This shows them the reasons for not releasing the pressure of a constant perpetual direction of violent aggression....it tends to make students seem aggressive simply because of the nature of the expression of the
system....constantly attacking. A focused unewavering blitz, without relying on caveman strightline punches with only the impact of the fists a-b as the uninformed idea....

Not that sparring is detrimental at all, simply HOW are you executing your attack....are you in combat mode or ring mode. 10 rounds or 10 seconds ? what is your goal ?

This is why VT is all straight lines coming at you from a flank....to maintain a line with leg if out of range of fist in an unbroken delivery of force/attack...po-pai to regain a strike from an attempted cover-up to counter , simply give the guy a sharpo push without stopping the attck forwards, he goes to far to punch again kick , regain distance seamlessly and hammer the guy relentlessly ...extrememly violent act. It brings out the beast in us not through personal 'killer' just the nature of the system ...to kill.

In the past guys carried 2 knives as the primary weapon, like a gun today....bare hands came second . If you face a guy with knives x2 and he is trained to simply chop the first thing you present ..arm/hand ...it ends quite quickly. If not does he let the guy recover to try to stab him again ? This is guiding us in bare hands , relentless pursuit to avoid facing another attack, survival. BJJ does this on the ground perfectly because they are trying to kill you if need be , not choke you for a few seconds revive you and choke you out after they enter again...similar goals varying methods.

[t_niehoff]

And yet the mental aspect is trained in all forms of physical training, from visualizations to the concerns that "his head wasn't in the game" and so forth and so on.
The mental aspect is even more crucial at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a "mental edge".

And by the same token, there are times when the elite are just physically "off" (tired, lackidsical, low-energy, etc.). So what you have are athletes who have good and bad days, both physically and mentally.

My point is that there are all kinds of aspects that are involved in any athletic contest, including fighting. And any of them can make a difference -- conditioning, experience, skill, mental toughness, pain tolerance, distractions in your life, etc. All kinds of things. The mental aspect is just one among many.

But I think most of this talk about the mental aspects is putting the horse before the cart. As you even point out, "at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a 'mental edge'". No one in WCK is anywhere near that "elite level".

[sanjuro_ronin]

And by the same token, there are times when the elite are just physically "off" (tired, lackidsical, low-energy, etc.). So what you have are athletes who have good and bad days, both physically and mentally.

My point is that there are all kinds of aspects that are involved in any athletic contest, including fighting. And any of them can make a difference -- conditioning, experience, skill, mental toughness, pain tolerance, distractions in your life, etc. All kinds of things. The mental aspect is just one among many.

But I think most of this talk about the mental aspects is putting the horse before the cart. As you even point out, "at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a 'mental edge'". No one in WCK is anywhere near that "elite level".

The vast majority of people training in MA are recreational, the elite are the top 5%, if that.
And yes, focusing on the mental when you can hardly to the physical is a tad premature.
Though visualization helps at any stage of development.

have you read the studies on "brain re-wiring" ?

[AmanuJRY]

And yet the mental aspect is trained in all forms of physical training, from visualizations to the concerns that "his head wasn't in the game" and so forth and so on.
The mental aspect is even more crucial at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a "mental edge".

100% correct.

We're on the same page....;)

[t_niehoff]

The vast majority of people training in MA are recreational, the elite are the top 5%, if that.
And yes, focusing on the mental when you can hardly to the physical is a tad premature.
Though visualization helps at any stage of development.

have you read the studies on "brain re-wiring" ?

I don't agree that visualization "at any stage of development" helps. How does visualizing performing something incorrectly, visualizing some way that won't work, etc. help? No matter what the activity, practice doesn't make perfect, it only makes it more-or-less permanent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't agree that visualization "at any stage of development" helps. How does visualizing performing something incorrectly, visualizing some way that won't work, etc. help? No matter what the activity, practice doesn't make perfect, it only makes it more-or-less permanent.

Look up brain re-wiring and you will see the studies done on it and how visualization works.
I am not sure why you would assume that people would be doing it incorrectly, you must run in a strange circle of practioners.

[AmanuJRY]

I don't agree that visualization "at any stage of development" helps. How does visualizing performing something incorrectly, visualizing some way that won't work, etc. help? No matter what the activity, practice doesn't make perfect, it only makes it more-or-less permanent.

I was able to do a 720 on my snowboard, but I was able to visualize it..and eventually do it...

Sure, if you can't visualize the tech correctly it's probably not helping much, but there are plenty of good examples to use and give a person the correct image.

We have a few students in our group who, with no prior experience are exceptional at putting kick combos together...how did he learn to do that???

...and I'm not buying genetic predisposition.;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some people are born to do certain things, no doubt that physically they are perfect for them, BUT they also have the ability to "absorb" mentally better than most that very thing they are "genetically predisposed" to.

[AmanuJRY]

Ok, so I'll accept genetic predisposition to an extent...:)

[LoneTiger108]

"Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?"

I find this sort of statement to be a hilarious example of TCMA silliness.

A person can only be judged by his performance in fighting. Whether it is in a cage, in the gym, in a ring, etc. it really doesn't matter. After all, if you can fight at a high elvel in a cage, you can fight at a high level anywhere. If you can't fight well, the venue won't make a difference.

The other laugh is the "allow his/her students" part. If his/her students aren't fighting, then they will have no fighting skill. And, any "student" who allows their "Master" to tell them what they can or cannot do is a sheep.

Let me think... I must've been a sheep.

TCMA silliness, as you call it, is where you may actually find some of these 'High Level' practitioners you are all talking of here. Within our Traditions we hold the keys to our past ancestors, who in turn may have trained the same skills and already proven their worth in their own time. Fighting or not, the skills are still here today in the name of Wing Chun herself.

By using the word 'Master', in your opinion also, would mean that around 99% of the Martial Arts community are mere 'sheep'. Nice outlook.:confused:

Its only a familiar term, known to those who have 'served' I suppose, or those who have taken the responsibility of what their learning to heart as Wing Chun knowledge can only ever be 'given' it can not be 'taken'. Without a 'Master' there is really nobody to 'give'...

[nschmelzer]

It sounds like most of us agree (except for the few persistent trolls) that at least 50% of combat (sport or real) is mental. Some of us have even shared their experiences with cultivating the "killer instinct" - and having it cause personality problems. That is very interesting.

For me, I do not like sparring because I don't like the strategies, energies, and intentions, needed to maintain a civil sparring environment. I think sparring (almost as much as not sparring) creates combat capability illusions. I spar mostly to remember the taste of my own blood, and I hit hard because I feel that I am not helping myself or my opponent with light contact.

How do you cultivate the "killer instinct" without going crazy? How do you cultivate the "killer instinct" without having ego or id control you? I use breathing and pile standing (like tai chi).

(As a form of troll repellent - let's assume there is no such thing as MMA athletes that train night and day. Instead, the world is full of men with normal jobs, and that train on some nights because they feel that combat training offers them a physical, practical, and philosophical challenge.)

[t_niehoff]

It sounds like most of us agree (except for the few persistent trolls) that at least 50% of combat (sport or real) is mental. Some of us have even shared their experiences with cultivating the "killer instinct" - and having it cause personality problems. That is very interesting.


It's amazing that people think because they find others like themselves, who believe the same sorts of things, that those beliefs must have some validity.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"In the past guys carried 2 knives as the primary weapon, like a gun today....bare hands came second." (KG)


***INTERESTING that you mention that. Was just thinking this morning about starting a thread about that - and how it relates to both the strengths and the limitations of empty hand wing chun.

........................................

"If you face a guy with knives x2 and he is trained to simply chop the first thing you present ..arm/hand ...it ends quite quickly. If not does he let the guy recover to try to stab him again ? This is guiding us in bare hands , relentless pursuit to avoid facing another attack, survival.

This is why VT is all straight lines coming at you from a flank....to maintain a line with leg if out of range of fist in an unbroken delivery of force/attack...po-pai to regain a strike from an attempted cover-up to counter , simply give the guy a sharpo push without stopping the attck forwards, he goes to far to punch again kick , regain distance seamlessly and hammer the guy relentlessly ...extrememly violent act." (KG)


***ALL the more reason why I believe that constant full contact sparring with gear is a must for wing chun people. Learning how to constantly attack (both physically and psychologically) needs a forum/methodology in order to develop these skills. And constant sparring when conducted wisely is just that forum.

[t_niehoff]

Let me think... I must've been a sheep.


Judging by what you say, it appears so.



TCMA silliness, as you call it, is where you may actually find some of these 'High Level' practitioners you are all talking of here. Within our Traditions we hold the keys to our past ancestors, who in turn may have trained the same skills and already proven their worth in their own time. Fighting or not, the skills are still here today in the name of Wing Chun herself.


And that's a all lovely fantasy. None of it true, but a lovely fantasy.



By using the word 'Master', in your opinion also, would mean that around 99% of the Martial Arts community are mere 'sheep'. Nice outlook.:confused:


99% of the TCMA community are sheep. Sheep living in a fantasy. Following their "master".

The word "master" is silly. There are certainly very high level MAs out there, people who have demonstrated very high level fighting skills. None of them practice TCMAs though.



Its only a familiar term, known to those who have 'served' I suppose, or those who have taken the responsibility of what their learning to heart as Wing Chun knowledge can only ever be 'given' it can not be 'taken'. Without a 'Master' there is really nobody to 'give'...

No one can "give" you WCK, anymore than they can "give" you boxing or wrestling or basketball or tennis. All the "WCK master" gives anybody is bullsh1t.

[k gledhill]

How do you cultivate the "killer instinct" without going crazy? How do you cultivate the "killer instinct" without having ego or id control you?

The Ving Tsun Attack System :rolleyes:

[sihing]

Judging by what you say, it appears so.



And that's a all lovely fantasy. None of it true, but a lovely fantasy.



99% of the TCMA community are sheep. Sheep living in a fantasy. Following their "master".

The word "master" is silly. There are certainly very high level MAs out there, people who have demonstrated very high level fighting skills. None of them practice TCMAs though.



No one can "give" you WCK, anymore than they can "give" you boxing or wrestling or basketball or tennis. All the "WCK master" gives anybody is bullsh1t.


LOL:D:D:D....

[k gledhill]

Wow terence is one angry person..ribbet, ribbet ... a new book title idea for you ..
" 25 years in the well , a vt frogs story " :D

[osprey3883]

Terrence-

It's amazing that people think because they find others like themselves, who believe the same sorts of things, that those beliefs must have some validity.

Hmmm, thoughts like that form the basis of most human interactions. It is a good thing the founders of our country didn't have you around to talk some sense into them.
You are such a retard, you obviously don't apply any form of logic before you post.

Matt

[osprey3883]

Terrence,
Isn't your own Sifu promoting/making Masters?

About your Sihing-
From- http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/instructors/sifusdetails.html
Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun: 8th Degree Black Belt - Master
European Head of Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Assiocation

But you have things to say like-

All the "WCK master" gives anybody is bullsh1t.

You can't even be respectful to your own family, what a joke.

Matt

[JPinAZ]

And he disrespects his own family even further when he continually claims that WCK doesn’t produce any good fighters. I wonder how his KF brothers, let alone his sifu feel about these 'claims'.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence Niehoff has got to be an ENORMOUS embarrassment to people like Robert Chu and Alan Orr.

They're kinda' stuck with him. :eek:

What's that old saying...

"With friends like this who needs enemies?"

LOL, Robert and Alan. :cool:

[AmanuJRY]

For the most part I think I like T.

My opinion is he's either too smart for his own arguements or just too quick to shoot something out there before letting logic run it's full circuit.;)

Heart's in the right place....mind is all over the place.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For the most part I think I like T.

My opinion is he's either too smart for his own arguements or just too quick to shoot something out there before letting logic run it's full circuit.;)

Heart's in the right place....mind is all over the place.

Actually T's mindset is very traditional.
For all his opposition to TMA, his mindset is identical to theirs.
The "my way or the highway" mindset, the either/or mindset.
Not very healthy actually.

[t_niehoff]

Terrence,
Isn't your own Sifu promoting/making Masters?

About your Sihing-
From- http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/instructors/sifusdetails.html
Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun: 8th Degree Black Belt - Master
European Head of Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Assiocation

But you have things to say like-


You can't even be respectful to your own family, what a joke.

Matt

The whole notion/idea of "master" is rooted in TMA and the tradtitional mindset. And the whole notion/idea is silly and meaningless and unnecessary. Is Labron James a "master" at basketball? Is Lennox Lewis a "master" at boxing? Of course not. The whole "master" notion is part of the role-playing, idol (image)-worshipping aspect of the traditional mindset. In every other sport or athletic activity, you are only as good as your performance ability.

As difficult as it is for people like you who have embraced the traditional mindset -- who revere and idolize "grandmasters" who can't fight their way out of wet tissue bags -- some of us don't adopt the views of our instructors, we think for ourselves (something you can't comprehend), we come to our own conclusions, have our own opinions. Robert's views are not mine -- as I have repeatedly said. Not only that, but I think he's wrong about many things. Robert and I have discussed this. And the great thing about Robert is that he wants me to have my own views, to think for myself, etc. That I don't agree with him on many things he sees - correctly - as a testament to himself. He's not trying to produce robots or clones or "followers"; he's trying to help people to develop their own functional WCK. I show Robert the greatest respect by thinking for myself. He understands that. The "scientologists" and "moonies" of TMA don't.

This is what you traditional guys can't grasp -- that whole tradtional crap, the "family", the lineage, the role-playing, etc. besides being utter nonsense doesn't show anyone real respect, not yourselves, not your instructors, not your training partners, no one. It is degrading. It's embarrassing. You are "adults" playing cowboys and indians, and taking it seriously! And then saying that anyone who points out that you are playing cowboys and indians is being disrespectful.

FWIW, some time ago Robert asked me about giving me some"rank" or "title" on a website and I told him that I really didn't want any rank or title, that these things were meaningless to me, that I don't see myself as being part of any "family" or associated with any "lineage" -- these things are all meaningless to me. To me, a WCK instructor is like a personal fitness trainer or a golf pro: someone who helps you with your game. He's not a religious leader.

[sanjuro_ronin]

See, its post like that that make me like Terrence, because he is right on most counts.
He just has a huge blind spot in regards to TMA and he lumps everyone into the same category, just like so many TMA do with practitioners of sport systems.

Its all either/or them.

[YungChun]

I agree with the "master" thing.. Every time I see someone calling themselves that it gives me the willies and I get slightly nauseous..(I can give the old timers some slack though)

And from what I have seen every family represented here has them...

What's worse is that many of these so called 'masters' actually suck...

[t_niehoff]

Actually T's mindset is very traditional.
For all his opposition to TMA, his mindset is identical to theirs.
The "my way or the highway" mindset, the either/or mindset.
Not very healthy actually.

Pointing out the silliness inherent in the TMAs, and the corresponding traditional mindset, is not an example of what Richard Dawkins calls the "discontinuous mind" -- putting things into neat absolutist categories, like black and white. Rather, it is the result of looking criticallyat things, and demanding evidence and reason of sufficient quality and quantity before accepting them as true.

I think that belief in fairies is silly. It's silly because there is no good evidence that fairies exist or ever existed, the laws of nature (scientifically determined) don't support the possiblity of fairies, etc. Is this "black and white" thinking? No. It is being sensible. But some people may still believe in fairies. They may point to stories from the past about fairies, that real, notable people like Conan Doyle believed and researched fairies, that photos were reputedly taken of fairies, etc. Is my pointing out to those people the flaws in their thinking, the lack of evidence, etc. a caseof my being "just likethey are"? I don't think so.

Belief in the usefulness of the TMA approach to learning/training martial arts, the stories of the past "masters", etc. is mostly belief in a fairytale.

[t_niehoff]

And he disrespects his own family even further when he continually claims that WCK doesn’t produce any good fighters. I wonder how his KF brothers, let alone his sifu feel about these 'claims'.


No, that's not what I've said. What I did say is that traditional training (alone) won't produce good results (develop good fighting skills). And that everyone in TMAs who has developed good fighting skills did so by doing modern functional training (like Alan traiing with Eddie Millis at the Shark Tank). That the traditional training model is a really poor way to learn/train.

It's not the art, it is how a person trains that is primary.

Moreover, someone who can't do it -- like guys who are traditionally trained (and givethemselves titles) -- don't really know it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pointing out the silliness inherent in the TMAs, and the corresponding traditional mindset, is not an example of what Richard Dawkins calls the "discontinuous mind" -- putting things into neat absolutist categories, like black and white. Rather, it is the result of looking criticallyat things, and demanding evidence and reason of sufficient quality and quantity before accepting them as true.

I think that belief in fairies is silly. It's silly because there is no good evidence that fairies exist or ever existed, the laws of nature (scientifically determined) don't support the possiblity of fairies, etc. Is this "black and white" thinking? No. It is being sensible. But some people may still believe in fairies. They may point to stories from the past about fairies, that real, notable people like Conan Doyle believed and researched fairies, that photos were reputedly taken of fairies, etc. Is my pointing out to those people the flaws in their thinking, the lack of evidence, etc. a caseof my being "just likethey are"? I don't think so.

Belief in the usefulness of the TMA approach to learning/training martial arts, the stories of the past "masters", etc. is mostly belief in a fairytale.

And you are quite correct, you just need to realize that its not ALL TMA.
Some of us are very functional and practical and still traditional.
And that is nothing new at all.

[YungChun]

And you are quite correct, you just need to realize that its not ALL TMA.
Some of us are very functional and practical and still traditional.
And that is nothing new at all.
Yeah it's funny...

Hard to believe T's a Judoka..

I think the TJMA and the TCMA are different.. Of course, there are those in all TMAs that are actually good and there are those in MMA or functional arts that suck...it's all about the %..

But TMA doesn't fit in with this model of what Traditional means to him..

[sihing]

No, that's not what I've said. What I did say is that traditional training (alone) won't produce good results (develop good fighting skills). And that everyone in TMAs who has developed good fighting skills did so by doing modern functional training (like Alan traiing with Eddie Millis at the Shark Tank). That the traditional training model is a really poor way to learn/train.

It's not the art, it is how a person trains that is primary.

Moreover, someone who can't do it -- like guys who are traditionally trained (and givethemselves titles) -- don't really know it.

Your problem is you think TMA is only about forms, static drills, idolizing instructors, watching kung fu movies, and dreaming of jumping over walls, etc... As sanjoro pointed out, that is a skewed view of TMA, and as far as I can tell, 99% of the people here don't think that, but you keep harping on it, and lumping us all into that group (ya ya I know, I'm brainwashed and don't see it, even in myself, lol). If you didn't do that, then you would have little problems here getting along, but as I already know you have no concerns about getting along.

Fight, fight, fight, all out, all the time, don't worry about the mindset or the emotions of kicking someone's butt, just train, hard, long, everyday, injured or uninjured, it doesn't matter, train train train, even though you won't have to use the skills ever, continue to train, hard, with intensity, always, bla bla bla....That is your bannter, but that is not the way for all of us.

The funniest thing is, no one here is claiming they are supreme fighters, nor are they claiming what they are doing is supreme as well (you even claim to be a s h i t t y fighter, all the while participating in the things you advocate). All we are ever really saying is that we enjoy training in Wing Chun, we find it effective, we realize that there are other arts out there as well that are effective too, we all have room for improvement. You keep on saying that people that make claims have to be told they are wrong, hypocritical, being mislead, but WHO'S MAKING CLAIMS??? I think it is all in your head, that you have an emotional, psychological need to post what you do, otherwise why repeat it everyday the same over and over again, making yourself look like an imbecile at times?

James

[nschmelzer]

Terence Niehoff's perspective is based on his understanding of the martial arts as a sport. He is embarrassed by those that might also consider martial arts a form of meditation, and/or lifestyle, and/or code of conduct, and/or a form of self-expression, and/or anything other than a sport.

Terence seems incapable of appreciating martial arts as anything other than a sporting activity. In fact, he is hostile to any notion that martials arts is anything other than a sporting acitvity. He is like a rabid atheist - embarrassed by the faith of others and hostile to the concept of a God, and incapable to appreciating or respecting the faith of others (including others that might be as smart or talented as he is).

For me, martial arts is more than just sport. It is an activity that challenges my fears, channels my energy, improves my health (physcial and mental), and gives me philosophical perspective (e.g., Chan). I am sure this embarasses Terence. It embarasses a lot of people that "don't get it."

Terence expresses his perspective. I express mine. You express yours. I don't worry about the martial arts = sports types like Terence. It only makes what I have more valuable to me.

[JPinAZ]

No, that's not what I've said. What I did say is that traditional training (alone) won't produce good results (develop good fighting skills). And that everyone in TMAs who has developed good fighting skills did so by doing modern functional training (like Alan traiing with Eddie Millis at the Shark Tank). That the traditional training model is a really poor way to learn/train.

It's not the art, it is how a person trains that is primary.

Moreover, someone who can't do it -- like guys who are traditionally trained (and givethemselves titles) -- don't really know it.

BS. total BS. This is not what you've said time and again. You've said WCK produces no real fighters. You've said WCK cannot produce any high level fighters. And you ares saying pretty much the same thing above. I don't really have the energy or desire to pull up the old quotes, but you are so full of sh!t. And I've called you on it over and over and you've ignored it each time.

You know, I've seen Alan's videos, and he does a fair amount of what one might call WC training in them. I've even seen him doing chi sau. Do you say that he is wasting his time?
Hell, he even sells WC training videos, are you saying that it's a waste of his time and he should just practice what Eddie Mills teaches only and give up the WC? Are you saying no one should buy these videos, since it's just traditional crap and you can't gain any real skills from them???? Great way to support your sihing AND the system he obviously finds benifits his training and highly promotes... (or maybe you are right and it's all traditional crap?)

Same with Dave M. I've seen him chi sau. Waste of time as well? And I'm not making any judgements, you are, so just getting your perspective on this

Does your own sifu do these things (train 'traditional crap' like WC)? Are you saying that none of these guys have any skill as a result, they are wasting their time and only have skill if they've trained something else BESIDES WC? Are you saying that since WC can produce no good-level fighters that your own sifu has no fighting skill as a result of his wc training? I'm curious if they share your same views.

Regarding 'titles', do you call your sifu 'sifu', or robert when you see him? Do you call judges in the court room by their first name or Mr. Smith, or do you use a well-respected, well-earned title? Do you call your mother/father by their first name?
Yeah, you're right, it's all a joke right? It's a sign of respect, dumba$$. Something you don't have - respect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, that's not what I've said. What I did say is that traditional training (alone) won't produce good results (develop good fighting skills). And that everyone in TMAs who has developed good fighting skills did so by doing modern functional training (like Alan traiing with Eddie Millis at the Shark Tank). That the traditional training model is a really poor way to learn/train.

It's not the art, it is how a person trains that is primary.

Moreover, someone who can't do it -- like guys who are traditionally trained (and givethemselves titles) -- don't really know it.

The only part in this post that is incorrect is your assumption of what traditonal training is.
Randori is traditional training (from the Kito-ryu to name just one)
The full contact sparring of kyokushin is traditional.
Boxing's hard contact/ful contact training is old and timeworn.
Wrestlings "rolling" is as old as modern civilazation.

These are all, traditional training methods.

[YungChun]

These are all, traditional training methods.

NO NO...

DOES NOT COMPUTE....

ERROR.. ERROR..

E R R O R....

BUZZZZZZZZZ!

LOL

[gabe]

Your problem is you think TMA is only about forms, static drills, idolizing instructors, watching kung fu movies, and dreaming of jumping over walls, etc... As sanjoro pointed out, that is a skewed view of TMA, and as far as I can tell, 99% of the people here don't think that, but you keep harping on it, and lumping us all into that group (ya ya I know, I'm brainwashed and don't see it, even in myself, lol). If you didn't do that, then you would have little problems here getting along, but as I already know you have no concerns about getting along.

Fight, fight, fight, all out, all the time, don't worry about the mindset or the emotions of kicking someone's butt, just train, hard, long, everyday, injured or uninjured, it doesn't matter, train train train, even though you won't have to use the skills ever, continue to train, hard, with intensity, always, bla bla bla....That is your bannter, but that is not the way for all of us.

The funniest thing is, no one here is claiming they are supreme fighters, nor are they claiming what they are doing is supreme as well (you even claim to be a s h i t t y fighter, all the while participating in the things you advocate). All we are ever really saying is that we enjoy training in Wing Chun, we find it effective, we realize that there are other arts out there as well that are effective too, we all have room for improvement. You keep on saying that people that make claims have to be told they are wrong, hypocritical, being mislead, but WHO'S MAKING CLAIMS??? I think it is all in your head, that you have an emotional, psychological need to post what you do, otherwise why repeat it everyday the same over and over again, making yourself look like an imbecile at times?

James

He is at war with the strawman he created. When you folks bring up specific examples that refute him, he redirects to his strawman. Unless you neatly fit within the strawman, you should disregard whatever he says. And remember he is really doing all this purely for the betterment of wing chun, to help us see the light. So you gotta love him!

[t_niehoff]

Terence Niehoff's perspective is based on his understanding of the martial arts as a sport. He is embarrassed by those that might also consider martial arts a form of meditation, and/or lifestyle, and/or code of conduct, and/or a form of self-expression, and/or anything other than a sport.

Terence seems incapable of appreciating martial arts as anything other than a sporting activity. In fact, he is hostile to any notion that martials arts is anything other than a sporting acitvity. He is like a rabid atheist - embarrassed by the faith of others and hostile to the concept of a God, and incapable to appreciating or respecting the faith of others (including others that might be as smart or talented as he is).

For me, martial arts is more than just sport. It is an activity that challenges my fears, channels my energy, improves my health (physcial and mental), and gives me philosophical perspective (e.g., Chan). I am sure this embarasses Terence. It embarasses a lot of people that "don't get it."

Terence expresses his perspective. I express mine. You express yours. I don't worry about the martial arts = sports types like Terence. It only makes what I have more valuable to me.

Oh, I "get it." I just reject it as silly.

And it's not that I see martial arts as sport -- just that we, as human beings, only learn and develop to a significant degree open motor skills, which include open skill sports like tennis, boxing, wrestling, and WCK (or any martial art), through the same process.

When I hear people say things like WCK "challenges my fears, channels my energy, improves my health (physcial and mental)", I wonder -- how is this unlike sport? Isn't that what sports do too? And without all the associated BS.

Like the "philosophical perspective" and "meditation." If someone wants that stuff, they don't need martial art for it. And there is no evidence that it in any way helps develop martial art skill (funny how all the world's best fighters seem to do fine without the Ch'an). But, as I said, if you want that stuff, that's fine with me. Just like if you want to role play, that's fine with me. But none of that has really anything to do with developing martial art skill. And, quite frankly, what makes you believe your "grandmaster" has any more "skill" or understanding of these things than he has of WCK (fighting)? Again, just more belief structure.

And that's the essence of TMA -- it's all belief structure, founded on fantasy. Does it have some good technical elements? Of course. Just as traditional japanese jiujitsu had some good technical elements. But when was the last time a TJJ guy won a grappling tournament? ;)

[t_niehoff]

The only part in this post that is incorrect is your assumption of what traditonal training is.
Randori is traditional training (from the Kito-ryu to name just one)
The full contact sparring of kyokushin is traditional.
Boxing's hard contact/ful contact training is old and timeworn.
Wrestlings "rolling" is as old as modern civilazation.

These are all, traditional training methods.

Once again, you don't see the forest for the trees. Certainly we can point to single instances of "good" stuff in traditional martial arts. It's just that the underlying training process as a whole is fundamentally flawed.

It's true traditional jiujitsu had randori. OK, when was the last time someone from a traditional japanese jiujitsu style won a 'major' graplling competition (against wrestlers, judoka, BJJ, sambo -- the functionally-trained guys)? Yeah, exactly. And that's because it isn't that single element, but their overall training process that is flawed.

Modern arts have taken those useful elements and put them into the open skill learning/training process that develops functional skills.

[YungChun]

japanese jiujitsu style won a 'major' graplling competition (against wrestlers, judoka, BJJ, sambo
According to that sample 4 out of 5 TMA's ROCK! LOL :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Once again, you don't see the forest for the trees. Certainly we can point to single instances of "good" stuff in traditional martial arts. It's just that the underlying training process as a whole is fundamentally flawed.

Which " underlying training process as a whole is fundamentally flawed" ?
And keep my tree hugging out of this :D


It's true traditional jiujitsu had randori. OK, when was the last time someone from a traditional japanese jiujitsu style won a 'major' graplling competition (against wrestlers, judoka, BJJ, sambo -- the functionally-trained guys)? Yeah, exactly. And that's because it isn't that single element, but their overall training process that is flawed.
I don't recall any, reason being that many ( I can't say all) TJJJ systems have decided to go against full on Randori, why? I don't know.
The rest of them "became" judo.
Even Kosen calls itself "kosen judo" and I don't recall anyone from there winning any grappling tournaments either, and their training is as functional as kodokan Judo.


Modern arts have taken those useful elements and put them into the open skill learning/training process that develops functional skills.

Quite correct and we are all the better for it, glad they returned to their "roots".
:D

[t_niehoff]

BS. total BS. This is not what you've said time and again. You've said WCK produces no real fighters. You've said WCK cannot produce any high level fighters. And you ares saying pretty much the same thing above. I don't really have the energy or desire to pull up the old quotes, but you are so full of sh!t. And I've called you on it over and over and you've ignored it each time.


Go find that in my posts. I said there aren't any high level fighters in WCK, and that is true. Is there someone at Chuck's, Randy's, Fedor's, etc. level in WCK? I haven't seen it.

But clearly some people have developed good, competant skills, like Alan and his guys.



You know, I've seen Alan's videos, and he does a fair amount of what one might call WC training in them. I've even seen him doing chi sau. Do you say that he is wasting his time?


No, as I have said before, unrealistic exercises like chi sao can be useful (though you don't need them and personally I think they are more trouble than they are worth) in *learning* or *teaching* skills -- because it is very difficult to elarn or teach skills in a sparring environment (since you can't focus easily on the new skill because so much else is going on). But, unrealistic exercises will never develop realistic skills. They can't.



Hell, he even sells WC training videos, are you saying that it's a waste of his time and he should just practice what Eddie Mills teaches only and give up the WC? Are you saying no one should buy these videos, since it's just traditional crap and you can't gain any real skills from them???? Great way to support your sihing AND the system he obviously finds benifits his training and highly promotes... (or maybe you are right and it's all traditional crap?)


It's not crap if he can do it in fighting against competant people. It's crap when you teach anti-grappling that you can't do yourself against competant people.



Same with Dave M. I've seen him chi sau. Waste of time as well? And I'm not making any judgements, you are, so just getting your perspective on this


No, same asnwer as above. And Dave, like Alan, has been training with good MMAists to make his WCK functional.



Does your own sifu do these things (train 'traditional crap' like WC)? Are you saying that none of these guys have any skill as a result, they are wasting their time and only have skill if they've trained something else BESIDES WC? Are you saying that since WC can produce no good-level fighters that your own sifu has no fighting skill as a result of his wc training? I'm curious if they share your same views.


See above. I'm saying that tradtitional training doesn't produce good results, significant gains in fighting skills. That the traditional learning model is fundamentally flawed. That tose people who get good in WCK, do so by and through their functional training, by sparring with good fighters (going to MMA gyms and traiing with those guys). That's it in a nutshell: you are only as good as the amount of time you've spent in quality sparring. Alan, Dave, and I'm sure many others that have spent that time, and did so trying to make their WCK tools work, develop functional skill. Those that don't do that, don't.



Regarding 'titles', do you call your sifu 'sifu', or robert when you see him? Do you call judges in the court room by their first name or Mr. Smith, or do you use a well-respected, well-earned title? Do you call your mother/father by their first name?
Yeah, you're right, it's all a joke right? It's a sign of respect, dumba$$. Something you don't have - respect.

I call Robert by his name. We're friends. He's not my father.

As far as earning a title, what title has any WCK grandmaster earned? How in the hell did they earn it? Not by proving they have any skill certainly! They just open a school in some store front and start calling themself "grandmaster." I guess they earn it the old-fashioned way: teach fantasy-fu.

[unkokusai]

For me, martial arts is more than just sport. It is an activity that challenges my fears, channels my energy, improves my health (physcial and mental), and gives me philosophical perspective .



Um yeah, but can't you get all those benefits from sport (perhaps even more so)?

[t_niehoff]

Which " underlying training process as a whole is fundamentally flawed" ?
And keep my tree hugging out of this :D


If you look at all TMAs, they share a similar training process -- forms, highly stylized techniques, unrealsitic drills, a "conceptual" framework (lots of theory of how someone "should" fight), etc. taught by people who can't really make that method work to any significant degree themselves. It goes about things ass-backwards in large part. For example, it isn't evidence-based (these things work in fighting and we've seen it work) but theory-based (this should work and here's why). Etc.

Functional training methods, in contrast, are based on the specificity principle of motor skill, recognizing that fighting skills come from fighting, that you learn to box and get better at boxing by boxing, learn to wrestle and get better at wrestling by wrestling, etc. And so, the focus of training is on doing the activity itself to develop skill in the activity. Sparring, doing the activity, becomes the core of the training. And because you do the activity, your results doing that become your guide. In functional arts, application (doing it) is your sifu.



I don't recall any, reason being that many ( I can't say all) TJJJ systems have decided to go against full on Randori, why? I don't know.
The rest of them "became" judo.
Even Kosen calls itself "kosen judo" and I don't recall anyone from there winning any grappling tournaments either, and their training is as functional as kodokan Judo.


Of course they haven't won any -- because how they train doesn't develop higher level skills.

They didn't "become" judo -- they either still existor died out. Kano took some elements and dropped the traditional training model and mindset, and adopted the more modern training model.




Quite correct and we are all the better for it, glad they returned to their "roots".
:D

All knowledge builds on the past. This is called growth. It is not a "return" to their "roots", it is a part of the evolution, growth of martial arts. Judo didn't "return to its roots", it evolved. Boxing has evolved. Wrestling has evolved. Sambo has evolved. They are driven by results obtained in doing the activity itself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you look at all TMAs, they share a similar training process -- forms, highly stylized techniques, unrealsitic drills, a "conceptual" framework (lots of theory of how someone "should" fight), etc. taught by people who can't really make that method work to any significant degree themselves. It goes about things ass-backwards in large part. For example, it isn't evidence-based (these things work in fighting and we've seen it work) but theory-based (this should work and here's why). Etc.

Not ALL but the MAJORITY, yes, that is a major problem.


Functional training methods, in contrast, are based on the specificity principle of motor skill, recognizing that fighting skills come from fighting, that you learn to box and get better at boxing by boxing, learn to wrestle and get better at wrestling by wrestling, etc. And so, the focus of training is on doing the activity itself to develop skill in the activity. Sparring, doing the activity, becomes the core of the training. And because you do the activity, your results doing that become your guide. In functional arts, application (doing it) is your sifu.

Correct and somewhere along the way, many TMA forgot this, not doubt.
Glad the TMA of Boxing, judo and wrestling for example, didn't.


Of course they haven't won any -- because how they train doesn't develop higher level skills.

They didn't "become" judo -- they either still existor died out. Kano took some elements and dropped the traditional training model and mindset, and adopted the more modern training model.

Have you seen Kosen Judo and how it is trained?
Judo "gobbled up" quite a few ryu of JJ.
And what "traditional elements" of the Kito and the Tenjinshinho-ryu did Kano drop ?
Randori came from the Kito, the focus on chokes and subs from the Tenjin shinyo ryu.


All knowledge builds on the past. This is called growth. It is not a "return" to their "roots", it is a part of the evolution, growth of martial arts. Judo didn't "return to its roots", it evolved. Boxing has evolved. Wrestling has evolved. Sambo has evolved. They are driven by results obtained in doing the activity itself.

Agreed that what has happened and is happening in MA is an evolution of sorts, but look at judo for example, how the pre-war judo was more newaza and submission based and how that changed and how that changed and how it is changing again to more of the "pre-war" type, stepping back to go forward in many regards.

[YungChun]

changing again to more of the "pre-war" type, stepping back to go forward in many regards.
IMO -- from fighting to non fighting back to fighting..

I see it as a second coming, a re-evolution, where IMO over the next decades you'll see the arts come full circle...where CQC will dominate.. :cool::p

[unkokusai]

If you look at all TMAs, they share a similar training process -- forms, highly stylized techniques, unrealsitic drills, a "conceptual" framework (lots of theory of how someone "should" fight), etc. taught by people who can't really make that method work to any significant degree themselves. It goes about things ass-backwards in large part. For example, it isn't evidence-based (these things work in fighting and we've seen it work) but theory-based (this should work and here's why). Etc. .



Oh, so you're just trolling. I see.

[Ultimatewingchun]

God, so much time wasted dealing with the views of Terence Niehoff.

What a friggin' joke!

Basically no one around here has even seen this guy. Much less touch hands with him. And we all know that he'll never post anything of himself doing anything. And he'll never show up anywhere unless there are "his" people there to literally protect him. And he constantly tells us that his skills are basically mediocre at best. And so many of his views are clearly flawed, hypocritical, disengenuous, and arrogant.

But because he bombards virtually every thread with the same old drone of a strawman argument again-and-again....people always respond to him.

WHAT A FRIGGIN' JOKE! :o

[sanjuro_ronin]

God, so much time wasted dealing with the views of Terence Niehoff.

What a friggin' joke!

Basically no one around here has even seen this guy. Much less touch hands with him. And we all know that he'll never post anything of himself doing anything. And he'll never show up anywhere unless there are "his" people there to literally protect him. And he constantly tells us that his skills are basically mediocre at best. And so many of his views are clearly flawed, hypocritical, disengenuous, and arrogant.

But because he bombards virtually every thread witht the same old drone of a strawman argument again-and-again....people always respond to him.

WHAT A FRIGGIN' JOKE! :o

Hmmm, I would be guilty as charged then.
:(

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes, you're found guilty as charged. :rolleyes: But the court grants you a suspended sentence! ;) :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, you're found guilty as charged. :rolleyes: But the court grants you a suspended sentence! ;) :)

LOL, Thanks.
I ahve to admit, arguing with T is lots of fun and almost addictive !

[nschmelzer]

I agree with Victor. This guy (Terence) ruins every thread - and effectively prevents any meaningful discussion by inciting others. It's almost like he is mentally ill - and simply cannot resist infecting every thread with his views on the traditional martial arts. I guess that is what happens when a forum is poorly moderated, and anyone can effectively use every thread as opportunity to spew the same message. It's like having every TV station turn into the same infomercial after watching it for five minutes. You get five minutes of your favorite show - then BAM the show is interrupted by the same infomercial. You turn the station (go to another thread), then BAM - Terence shows up with his infomercial. Terence, if your fighting skill is even a fraction of your annoyance skill - you must be one of the best fighters in the world. I wonder how much you would say at a seminar - where there might be consequences for your comments?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Truth be it said, this thread would have been over in a couple of pages without the T-Man, even less maybe.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That may be true. You could be right about that. But then again, new threads pop up all the time.

[JPinAZ]

Terence, if your fighting skill is even a fraction of your annoyance skill - you must be one of the best fighters in the world. I wonder how much you would say at a seminar - where there might be consequences for your comments?

haha, if only that were the case! Obviously, his WC sucked and he didn't get it. Now he preaches the 'gospel' of MMA, yet that doesn't work for him either (by still having admittedly poor skills). He's so clueless, it's comical if not entirely sad..

Victor's probably right on this one, but it's fun giving T the energy which allows him to shoot himself in the face time and again :)

[osprey3883]

Terrence-

The whole notion/idea of "master" is rooted in TMA and the tradtitional mindset. And the whole notion/idea is silly and meaningless and unnecessary. Is Labron James a "master" at basketball? Is Lennox Lewis a "master" at boxing? Of course not. The whole "master" notion is part of the role-playing, idol (image)-worshipping aspect of the traditional mindset. In every other sport or athletic activity, you are only as good as your performance ability.


Next time I run into a Master of any sort (Chef, Electrician, someone with a Masters degree) I will make sure and set them straight. :rolleyes:

As much as you rant about traditional roles in MA not really being about respect, the way you present yourself here IMO shows you know little if anything about respect. You talk a lot of crap but are the first to take the "i't isn't about me" approach when anyone calls you out. Honestly it's not about the content it's about the delivery.

Matt

[imperialtaichi]

Hmmm.... I am not saying modern training methods are not good, but I have met a fair number of traditionally trained WCK fighters who are really, really good....

It seems to me it is the modern "do it for fun" Wing Chunners who are trained the "commercial" ways who are not cutting it....

Cheers,
John

[KimWingChun]

Haha.

Keep it up T.

Deep down you all know he's right.

Hahaha.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah riiiiiight !!!:rolleyes:

[AmanuJRY]

So what this thread is saying, is that the disadvantage/s of sparring is/are that Terrence is an a55???

'cmon, let's get back on subject....

I will argue that focusing on the negatives of an excercise, especially when out weighed by the positives, is ludacris...

What are the disadvantages of doing forms?

What are the disadvantages of doing chi sau?

What are the disadvantages of strength training?

...focus on the postitive, people....what are the advantages?;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

What are the disadvantages of doing forms?
They don't translate directly to real world applications, can cause functionally bad habits, when done out of context for which they were created they can hamper development, if they are prioritized over actual fighting and sparring, they can turn ones MA skills less than effective.


What are the disadvantages of strength training?

If done incorrectly, ST can cause irreperable damage and at the very least, hamper MA skills.

[AmanuJRY]

They don't translate directly to real world applications, can cause functionally bad habits, when done out of context for which they were created they can hamper development, if they are prioritized over actual fighting and sparring, they can turn ones MA skills less than effective.

..............

If done incorrectly, ST can cause irreperable damage and at the very least, hamper MA skills.

My point exactly....:cool:

The positives still out-weigh the negatives...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Advantages of forms:
Good cardio workout, allows you to train when no one is available, certain forms can increase strength through the range of motion ( isokinetic strength building) and they can stave off monotony for some.

Advantages of ST:
Where to start?
Strength, speed, muscular endurance, etc, etc.

[AmanuJRY]

Advantages of forms:
Good cardio workout, allows you to train when no one is available, certain forms can increase strength through the range of motion ( isokinetic strength building) and they can stave off monotony for some.

Advantages of ST:
Where to start?
Strength, speed, muscular endurance, etc, etc.


...that's the stuff people need to focus on....the positives will weed out the negatives.

[nschmelzer]

OK. I'll play. At least until TN shows up again. For me, forms are useful for expressing concepts and principles rather than techiques and footwork. For example, I am believer in keeping the elbows in, and wrists on my centerline. I use those concepts in sparring. Because I am not a big man (5'9; 160 pounds), I need body structure to help me impose my will on my usually larger and sometimes stronger opponent. So, assuming the concept is that elbows are the key to body structure, and body structure leverages/maximizes stability and power - forms involving the immoveable elbow concept or body structure concept are useful to me. For me, forms are not the practice of techniques or footwork. They are for training my body to automatically employ concepts without thought. If I am startled, I automatically transition into a side neutral stance and a jong sau. Practicing my forms makes this easier for my body to remember. I think it is a huge mistake to consider forms a useless waste of time. Sports are full of examples of performance enhancing "forms." On the other hand, knowing your forms perfectly does not prepare you for the actual game. Just one man's opinion.

[tjwingchun]

And, btw, another problem with sparring is that often what is called "sparring" is really play (pretend) fighting, where what is being done is not realistic (doesn't correspond to what will really go on in a fight). Play fighting is just another unrealistic exercise and can't develop realistic skills.
Which is very close to my view, it is my personal choice not to spar, over the years I have been in many chi sau situations that were closer to fighting than most get to in sparring. I have never been "owned" as the expression goes. I have always been able to manipulate my opponent by what I call "rag dolling", disrupting their stances continually so they never have a chance to settle, never mind think about hitting me. :D

I have never told students that they should not spar, each has their own mind and makes their own decisions, but I know they would agree with me that if I sparred with them they would learn little apart from which parts of the body hurt most when hit. Even then it could not be full contact, so what are you teaching yourself by repeatedly not using full power in strikes?

I am of the frame of mind that full strikes or "offloading" as I term them, can only be practiced on bags or shields, I use "entry" techniques and chi sau to get me into positions where I can "offload", the point where I recognize an "offloading" technique is available is when I stop, leaving this memory as the trigger for the strike to commence full speed and power when required.

If I got my kicks out of beating students up I would have taken a different path many years ago, my wish is to teach through understanding, I do not follow the theory that a student must get punched in the face before they will be able to defend themselves.

Over ALL the years I have been teaching I have not any student come back to me saying they had frozen and not been able to use their Wing Chun to defend themselves, on the contrary, many have told me how when a situation occurred they simply reacted and techniques just "happened".

Disadvantages of sparring?

Being a beginner and used as a punch bag by everyone else in the school. :eek::mad:

Until a newer kid arrives on the block :D

[Liddel]

If I got my kicks out of beating students up I would have taken a different path many years ago, my wish is to teach through understanding, I do not follow the theory that a student must get punched in the face before they will be able to defend themselves.


You dont have to beat up your students TJ.

For the record im no hard man, ok.

But IMHO, taking hard shots or at least having a little taste of being peppered with light to heavy shots during sparring, is very good for ones training...no matter what the style.

I think understanding as you mention AND good sparring will make your skills more sound than just having one of said attributes. :rolleyes:

Unless your taining goal is not to be better at fighting.

But theres a huge area between play fighting as T mentions and full force sparring - This is one of my fav sparring vids on the net......intent is 100% power is not...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7037401721507431428

I dont see them getting hurt and given size and experience been close when you choose a sparring partner - youll find you can go harder and harder without serious injury...

One of the biggest disadvantages of sparring IMO can come from not choosing the right partner at the right time....

DREW

[monji112000]

You dont have to beat up your students TJ.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7037401721507431428

DREW
perfect clip!
training with boxing gloves and with intent but not power is ideal for fighting. You can't just jump off doing that though. You need to build up, some drills that take aspects of free fighting first. Also they are training with their opponents in mind. IE don't train against WC technqiues and fighting style. Its a waste of time unless you are fighting a WC person.

Disadvantages of sparring = training without someone skilled watching so you ingrain mistakes. without proper building drills you just continue the same poor habits you had before, instead of ingraining proper fighting habits. Sparring isn't the end all to be all you need supporting activities. Pad work, timing drills, power drills, ect..

that being said sparring in the correct environment goes a LONG WAY.