Ip Man Wing Chun Competitive Form (4th Form) - 詠春摘要

[Paw Petersen]

Hello.

Can anyone give me more info on this form? Who made it, when and why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIn_Gyyy6sE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze5YtXlnklo

The guy on the right in the first clip looks like one of ip chings students?

I think it says something about it on the VTAA:
www.vingtsun.org.hk/
But I can't understand chinese.

Anyone?

[AmanuJRY]

It kinda looks like an amalgam of SNT and CK to me...:rolleyes:

[CFT]

It is a competition form that is supposed to be representative of Wing Chun methods and philosophy. It incorporates: SNT, CK, BJ, Wooden dummy hand and leg methods, retreating footwork from BJD.

[Dan_chi_sau]

anyone know what the purpose of that is then?
From what i saw, there was nothing there that isnt in the first three forms. Im confused as to its point. maybe someone thought that doing three forms took too long and mushed them all into one big form? Cant see what it has to offer that the three hand forms dont already have.

[CFT]

Dan, I think it is just for forms competitions not for personal skills development. We only saw excerpts I think so we can't really see how complete the form is. It can't possibly cover everything in the 5 forms.

[Dan_chi_sau]

hey chee,
long time no speak, hope alls well, but I'll email you for a good catch up.
I just dont get it (leaving myself wide open there). Why, after years of wing chun being fine just the way it is(from a certain point of view), do we need this? If its purely to 'compete' to see who has good form, then great, but not for me.
It would be cool if someone involved could shed some light on this, as i just dont see any benefit that this fourth form could offer that the previous forms dont.
If its just for competition, then why not do wushu? I'd rather watch that sort of 'form for forms sake' than this. Am i missing something? I saw elements of all the forms in there. Now either this has some meaning, and people have decided to do this instead of the three hand forms etc., which i could understand but not agree with, or its just for show. If you wanna look good but not actually fight, then I'm sure it's just fine.....If i am missing something here, feel free to let me know what the score is, i just dont get it.

[CFT]

I don't know to be honest, but it does seem to be for "show" only. Don't worry about it, I doubt you're missing anything. It really only concerns people who invest the time and effort in learning the choreography.

[Liddel]

Its nothing to try and understand, its simple - its just like a VT version of shadow boxing (in a way), anyone with imagination can do it.

I do this kind of stuff often - like as a last thing before going to bed type thing.

I just perform actions from each form in responce to an imaginary opponent.
It helps with transitioning between your own habbit actions rather than the same old Form actions that may or may not lead into one another in real fighting....

I could see why they might want to do this type of stuff - Forms are boring and in and on thier own are not a good representation of VT in action.

Ive never wanted to compete in a form comp - dont see why anyone would really ;) , but there's nothing wrong with it as long as thier not selling it as the new secret form passed down by a VT god :p

DREW

[drleungjohn]

His students copy the moves exactly like YChing plays them,and not learned and expresses them for themselves-

[Paw Petersen]

Dan, I think it is just for forms competitions not for personal skills development. We only saw excerpts I think so we can't really see how complete the form is. It can't possibly cover everything in the 5 forms.

Actually I think we saw the complete form.


@Liddel
I don't think that learning a combination of movements can be regarded as shadow-boxing, especially not the part from first section of siu lim tao, in the beginning of this competition form. I think that the best way to train WCK shadow-boxing should be done from the WCK guard (man sao and wu sao), but that's just my opinion.


I don't get the idea of form competition. Wing chun isn't supposed to look good, but be practical. Forms are a method of training and remembering concepts and theories, not showing off and making competitions - there are other ways to do that?..

[LoneTiger108]

Again, I can only repeat what others have said about the familiarity of these sets. Maybe this is a good way for the Ip Family to suggest that this type of training is 'normal' and should be influenced.

After all, if Wing Chun is totally personal wouldn't you just practise what you wanted? Then again, that would imply that these are Ip Chings favourite sets wouldn't it?

Form 'competitions' are a good idea IMO even for Wing Chun practitioners. Think about it, if this is Ip Chings, what do you want to do? What would your comp form look like? Most form comps have set time limits etc, and the form has to 'fit-in' with the common Wushu approach to judging. I personally have been consulted by Form Judges on 'how to see' Wing Chun and participated in the judgment process myself (Yep! I am quite 'known' in the UK regardless of what most people on here think! lol!)

I found that Form Competitions are a great learning experience, and I would say, in Ip Families defence, that this 'little idea' could be a very good one, taking into consideration Chinas wider goal of promoting balanced Wushu practice.

[LoneTiger108]

I could see why they might want to do this type of stuff - Forms are boring and in and on thier own are not a good representation of VT in action.

AND you actually practice this type of thing before going to bed?? No wonder you feel this way Drew! Speaks volumes about your form and the intent you have tried to draw from them...


...but there's nothing wrong with it as long as thier not selling it as the new secret form passed down by a VT god.

100% agree here. Talking of 'secret forms' though, what have you heard?

[tjwingchun]

I don't know, but my assumption would be that is it more for demonstrations rather than competition, I remember Stephen Chan making a form up in his "Nucleus of Wing Chun" video and book, that was a hotch-potch of the three forms cobbled together.

Then it was misguided by the supposed quote attributed to Leung Jan that "The person who will do most for Wing Chun is the person who can simplify the system into a single form".

My view is that strictly speaking that can never happen as the three forms have fundamentally disparate teaching ideologies (understand the hand, understand the body, understand fighting, you must know the hand before you can relate to the body and only when you fully know yourself can you be a complete fighter), that must not be compromised, however the statement when thought of slightly differently has a ring of truth.

"A person fully understands Wing Chun when they comprehend the system as ONE form".

When you have knowledge of the complete system every move is an amalgamation of the energies that you have developed individually through the movements of the forms. Which is why I never define any technique as a pure application simply a method of understanding a particular energy using a specific muscle group.

[k gledhill]

its a combination of 'his' thinking and 'his' forms ....all mashed into a show for the audience...leave it at that :D
It wont put you to sleep like most VT shows ... oh look SLT again ZZZzzzzzzzz.....snore ;)
good show.
I met and did chisao with Both Yip Chun & Yip Ching . Nice guys, very humble, quiet.

forms are simply a modular method of isolating the parts ...the whole looks nothing like the forms . like a glass of water looks nothing like a crashing wave. All it takes is intent and purpose and even a glass of water can take life if thrown at someones face .

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wing Chun forms are just training tools. Building blocks whose total adds up to more than just the sum its parts. Like an Erector Set. The parts are the parts - and when you put them together - the finished product looks like something very different than when you just look at the parts.

But dependent upon the parts to give the finished product it's essential quality and value.

But as important as the forms are, chi sao is, other related drills are, as footwork drills are, etc...

it means nothing - and I mean NOTHING - without constant sparring in a spontaneous and non predetermined manner. And against all kinds of opposing methods, ie. boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, judo, karate, etc.

I think this can't be emphasized enough.

Because spending hours-and-hours doing things like forms, drills, chi sao, wooden dummy, etc. - and a very small % of time sparring competitively adds up to no real wing chun fighting skills.

No matter how many years you're in the game.

[Liddel]

@Liddel
I don't think that learning a combination of movements can be regarded as shadow-boxing, especially not the part from first section of siu lim tao.

Taking any actions from any and all forms putting them together any way you see fit and acting like you have a imaginary opponent giving you actions for you to react to.... is my definition of shadow boxing.

I wasnt specifically speaking to what we see, more what i do and how it might relate to what we see.

Also - what i see is actions from all VT hand forms put together in a sequence, so i dont get your comment about the first sect SLT ONLY ?

I did say LIKE a version of shadow boxing and in brackets (in a way) - i was fairly clear about that.

Was your post just a knee jerk reaction :rolleyes:

[Liddel]

AND you actually practice this type of thing before going to bed?? No wonder you feel this way Drew! Speaks volumes about your form and the intent you have tried to draw from them...

Im not sure if your trying to put me down or what with this comment :rolleyes:
I use the forms for many things, and as i progress still after ten years training in VT, i use the forms for different and varying aspects of training.

When you are alone and cant spar or do Gor sao, forms are great IMO. Better than nothing.

I take them and make them mine. I dont want to be a clone of my teacher. He taught me to think for myself with regard to VT.



100% agree here. Talking of 'secret forms' though, what have you heard?


Speak to leung Ting - he owns the copyright on that one :D

DREW

[tjwingchun]

Speak to leung Ting - he owns the copyright on that one :D

DREWThought Kernspect owned everything now :D

[RGVWingChun]

From what I understand, some major WuShu Association of China asked all major branches of Kung Fu to make a "competitive" form that could be judged, just in case Kung Fu made it to the Olympic Games. From what I was told by my Sifu, Ip Ching was asked to submit the form for Wing Chun. So Grandmaster Ip Ching and a couple of his students put this form together.

The form combines pieces and principles of Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, biu jee, mook yan jong and even some of the Baat Jam Do footwork in it.

I have seen it titled "Wing Chun Synthesis" but I don't know the official name for it yet....I'll see if my SiGung and Sifu get any further information.

[Paw Petersen]

@RGVWingChun

Sounds very interesting. I doubt that wing chun forms has anything to offer in the olympic games, but it would be cool to see some kung fu in there :)

Do you know if Ip Ching is going to include this form in his system?.. or will it be regarded as an extra-form for competition only?

[LoneTiger108]

Like most promotional arms of any business, I see this form as a good move forward for Wing Chun from the Ip Family whether it was for the Chinese Government, Olympics or not. As I said earlier:

I found that Form Competitions are a great learning experience, and I would say, in Ip Families defence, that this 'little idea' could be a very good one, taking into consideration Chinas wider goal of promoting balanced Wushu practice.

Wing Chun in the Olympics? Hmmm. Listen, they only came to the oldskool arts because Wushu was seriously lacking in their numbers of Western students in comparison. I don't believe for a second that Wing Chun would have been approached to actually compete in forms comps with what we already have, as it's just not spectacular enough for the young, athletic audience. Hence, create a new form or you will not be included!

Even the way a Wushu judge is 'trained' does not cater for our way. They do not understand 'individual interpretation' and would prefer to judge standardized patterns like the 'Kata' of Karate. Even Shaolin has started to walk this path. So, if this was an attempt at a competitive form, it was a truly wasted one as we all know the chances of Wushu being included in the Olympics is nil...

BTW - RGVWingChun: Wing Chuns 4th form was always considered to be a collection of 'loose hand' techniques maybe originating from Leung Jan himself and exists today as a 'Sup Yee Sik' (12 Set method) most noteably seen in Yuen Kay Sans branch in Foshan. That would make this Comp Form number 8 (?)

[RGVWingChun]

I'm not sure if Ip Ching is going to include the form in particular. I was discussing with my Sifu about including the form into our system and most likely that will be the case. Should be pretty cool.

Moses

[Liddel]

Can i ask what you might think the bennifits of adding this 'form' into your system might be...

Isnt it really just the actions you already have from SLT CK and BJ in different clothing ?

Curious
DREW

[NgGung]

Can i ask what you might think the bennifits of adding this 'form' into your system might be...

Isnt it really just the actions you already have from SLT CK and BJ in different clothing ?

Curious
DREW


Well, for starters one can avoid ****ing off the people representative of the Wushu Committee and find one's self and family under investigation! :eek:As I understand it this was something Strongly Suggested! ;) I think a lot of folks forget HK reverted to the People's republic and the influence they have over ALL arts and their development!

Respectfully,

Ng

[RGVWingChun]

Can i ask what you might think the bennifits of adding this 'form' into your system might be...

Isnt it really just the actions you already have from SLT CK and BJ in different clothing ?

Curious
DREW

Obviously it would add nothing new to the SLT, CK, or BJ training....but depending on where the form is taught, that is, between what forms, it has aspects of the dummy and some knife footwork that can serve as introductory movements into the forms or just give a look ahead. From what I understand, the Bart Jam Do footwork can come in hand even in an empty hand fight. So it could serve as a small look ahead.

Moses