Learning the forms in a seminar

[Hitman]

Dear all,
How do you reproduce a form you have just learnt after watching the instructor performed only a few times in a seminar. I can not do it at the moment, so I need your help. Which part of the body do you watch, when the instructor is demonstrating the form?
I know good dancers can reproduce 70 - 80% of a dance routine after watching it only once. How do they do it?

Thank you

[hskwarrior]

key thing is to pay close close close attention.......don't watch just one thing, spread your vision out and soak in the whole picture.

if you focus only on hands, you miss the feet. vice versa.

its easier if you already know the basics of the system, but if you are a complete newbie, take you time.

[Takuan]

Footwork first! :D

[lkfmdc]

Not to tear this thread down and burn the house to the ground (no, not me! ;) not me!) LOL

but anyway, I think this is one of the problems, it isn't easy to just "copy" movement for many. I know that guys like Lama Pai Sifu, CJurakPT, Steve Ventura and I would watch CTS and learn by imitation. We got very good at it. LOL I remember when YC Wong came to NYC and taught the first Pek Gwa set to us. We picked it up in 20 minutes, he was sort of amazed saying it usually takes an all day seminar to get people to learn it, then he wanted to know if he could teach something else to make up for such a short seminar :D (YC Wong is a very good teacher)

[hskwarrior]

some people learn very fast, some are thinkers who slow down the whole process.

but i've picked up whole forms in a day as well.

[lkfmdc]

but we've also probably also seen someone who takes a day to learn how to execture a single technique

(trying to teach "Lin Waan Dau Fu" used to cause me to pound my head into the wall in the old days)

[Mano Mano]

I would agree with Frank take in the whole picture & don’t let people distract you, sometimes you get people commenting on what you are watching is being demonstrated.

[Becca]

Dear all,
How do you reproduce a form you have just learnt after watching the instructor performed only a few times in a seminar. I can not do it at the moment, so I need your help. Which part of the body do you watch, when the instructor is demonstrating the form?
I know good dancers can reproduce 70 - 80% of a dance routine after watching it only once. How do they do it?

Thank you
The key is already having the individual movements down pat. You do enough dancing, learn enough routines, you will have a very nice repertoire. Forms are a lot like dancing in this respect. The better your repertoire, the easier it is to pick up new forms...

This does not mean you can’t learn a lot from forms, but they are what they are.

[ngokfei]

For me it has to do with the skill of the student attending the seminar and the material being presented. Kind of hard to teach a beginner a set that is more complicated then the material that they are working on.

yeah David, I remember that session with YC. Actually you did the same thing to him on the 2nd Pekkwa set as well. I think it was even shorter then the 1st one. Did you ever pick up the 3rd?

Having a teacher like CTS makes you either a great student or ....:)

[Yao Sing]

IMHO, the thing to focus on at a forms seminar is the invisible man. By that I mean get a feel for what he's doing with the moves rather than trying to remember abstract movements.

It's much easier to remember the moves as "grab the arm, step in and twist opponent over right leg" than "hold left hand with fingers curved, move right leg forward and turn to the left while straightening the right leg".

The details will be filled in when the individual moves are tried later on with a partner.

Something like that.

[hskwarrior]

haha, clf is also a good test on your coordination too!

my biggest headache is teaching complete newbies. not only do i have to teach them how to strike properly, i have to slow it all down for those who take more time to learn something than the others.

however, in my lineage, with both GGM Jew Leong, and my sifu, you were shown a technique once, twice, maybe three times.....after that you were on your own.

learning that way, keeps your eyes and mind sharp. learning to take in the whole picture is a very good thing for learning.

unfortunately, when im showing my students a technique, they're too busy staring at girls jogging in the park. :(

[hskwarrior]

yao sing, i agree with you on that, but still, you have those who just stare and wonder what are you doing that for again?

[lkfmdc]

yeah David, I remember that session with YC. Actually you did the same thing to him on the 2nd Pekkwa set as well. I think it was even shorter then the 1st one. Did you ever pick up the 3rd?



yeah, but the 2nd time he was already ready for the shock ;)

He showed me his senior student doing the 3rd set on video and showed me the opening, I was supposed to go out to San Francisco and finish up and do some other stuff, but I think that was the year I got divorced and everything got sort of messy :D

[lkfmdc]

Chan Tai San used to say something to the effect that "I gave it to you, why did you give it back" (ie I just showed it to you, how did you forget it already?). He wasn't the most patient guy (Ngok Fei probably can testify to that, was around enough)

[Knifefighter]

Dear all,
How do you reproduce a form you have just learnt after watching the instructor performed only a few times in a seminar. I can not do it at the moment, so I need your help. Which part of the body do you watch, when the instructor is demonstrating the form?
I know good dancers can reproduce 70 - 80% of a dance routine after watching it only once. How do they do it?

Thank you

Just do the parts you remember and make up the rest. It will have the same level of effectiveness.

[lkfmdc]

Just do the parts you remember and make up the rest. It will have the same level of effectiveness.

as soon as I saw Knifefighter posted on this thread, I knew it was going to be something like this :p

[hskwarrior]

but there are not too many people that i know that have totally given up on forms.

when you learn the system you can choose to learn forms, but if fighting in the ring, or in the street, you just learn techniques and schit.

i'm all for fighting, but i am one who understands the difference between combative training techniques, as opposed to learning forms.

forms has their place.

[lkfmdc]

but there are not too many people that i know that have totally given up on forms.



Letting go of something you have spent a lot of time doing is hard. And being part of the "mo lum" is an emotional attachement, and a sentimental one.

Dropping like 10 to 15 years of your life is hard, it's like losing your religion

But because I sent hours trying to teach a person to do "lin waan dau fu" so they could go on with the rest of the form (as opposed to even just doing the form!) I eventually came to the conclusion that it's a terrible waste of time

I also think that forms today are terribly bogged down with outdated and or never were useful "fluff"....

Doing what I do today, people see functional skills in a few months, not years, that makes me (and them) happy....

[Yao Sing]

I think people go way too deep into the forms and then start finding stuff that was never intended to have the meaning they attribute to it. That's where the fluff comes into the equation.

A link may have been added just for a convenient way to get from move "A" to move "B" and now everyone is digging for gold in every little wrist flick. I have a feeling when some of these forms were created they were just throwing moves together and not meticulously inserting hidden knowledge and apps.

Get the gist of what the forms is trying to convey, get the general movements and if you understand the apps then do them the same as they are done with an opponent. Don't read more into it than what you can get to work.

[Drake]

Well, I feel that as long as you get the intent of the seminar, you're good. For example, if a form is going over blocking, and the overall lesson was moving and blocking (basic, just an example), then while you might not recall the 120 move form taught over the course of a single hour, you understand what the instructor was trying to teach you.

[hskwarrior]

but ross, thats where we as the new generation leaders shave off the fluff, and bring back the reality combative aspects of gung fu.

forms are great to watch, perhaps its where Per-FORM-ance started...lol.......but it is what it is. just a form of movements.

but hopefully todays gung fu school does the pad work, the real application work, and evolving the usage aspects of a system, gets down and dirty staying true to what they do.

I hate fluff as well. but in a performance, or form compettion, fluff always gets the gold. how funny.

old chinese/american saying.......if its too fluffy, its not effective!

[hskwarrior]

ross, thats where i have come to today now myself. out of all my students, i have to split them up at times. some only want to do forms, others are just teach me how to use this shchit.

so i decide who learns the forms, and who just learns how to use choy lee fut in combat.

[lkfmdc]

but ross, thats where we as the new generation leaders shave off the fluff, and bring back the reality combative aspects of gung fu.



That's what I believe I am doing, but without forms




but hopefully todays gung fu school does the pad work, the real application work, and evolving the usage aspects of a system, gets down and dirty staying true to what they do.



the underline I added, because I think we've reached the point where we can clearly see, it isn't going to happen. I had a discussion with Tai-Lik about this, we both remembered back in the 70's and 80's you'd see traditional schools where they did forms, and they did fighting... the early Lei Tai/San Da NACMAF events the fightes were from Goh's, Tai Yim, Jow ga, etc....

I just don't see it anymore.....

And finally, for me anyway, the forms really don't have a long tradition. They say in the 1860's they only did 3 forms anyway, most of the ones we have come from the last 150 years.

[Yao Sing]

Well, if you have guys competing in forms then keep them as they are. Also if you're handing the complete system on to others you're probably obligated to teach it as you learned it but a little 'spring cleaning' shouldn't be a problem.

At least every other generation there should be some 'spring cleaning' otherwise the system gets overloaded and bloated like we see today in a lot of them.

Plus you always have the option to teach what you want, how you want. Similar to Ross's approach.

As long as your honest about what you teach there shouldn't be a problem.

[hskwarrior]

personally, i have OVER 40 hand and weapon forms under my belt.

and there are many times i ask myself why?

i know that forms are just a piece of gung fu. yet i still love learning forms.

but there is nothing better than feeling the resistance while striking something with a sow choy. those who DO use pads in their training, contact is such a great feeling.

[xcakid]

some people learn very fast, some are thinkers who slow down the whole process.

but i've picked up whole forms in a day as well.

That's my problem. I get too worked up in trying to find out the application and why he's moving that way that I get stuck there. :(

Went to a seminar where Shi Yan Feng taught an Eagle Claw form(modern wushu version). I kept asking for the application, the class was able to get thru about 80 percent of the form. I was stuck at about 25%. I know that was stupid to ask for application on a modern wushu form, but that's just how I like things. :p I remember him telling me on a few moves, "no application, just moving"

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If it is a new form from your own style, you just need to get the gross motion, you already have the details. Or if it's a form from your style that you already have, watch the details and see where you can improve.

If it's not then you just do the best you can, and socialize with everyone else because it's not a learning function, but an excuse for a social event and a little side $$ for the host.

[Jeong]

but there is nothing better than feeling the resistance while striking something with a sow choy. those who DO use pads in their training, contact is such a great feeling.

Absolutely. At our school we do about 50% pad work/drills and 50% form work and other conditioning. On the rare occasion where I do go a practice without hitting some pads I always feel unsatisfied.

[ngokfei]

Ideally for me was:
10% Basics
20% Forms
30% Drills (with & without pads)
40% Sparring

now with my lazy ass

30% Forms
20% Drills
10% Sparring

50% Tivo with snacks:D

[lkfmdc]

now with my lazy ass

10% Forms
10% Drills

80% Tivo with snacks:D

fixed that for your :D;):p;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Letting go of something you have spent a lot of time doing is hard. And being part of the "mo lum" is an emotional attachement, and a sentimental one.

Dropping like 10 to 15 years of your life is hard, it's like losing your religion

But because I sent hours trying to teach a person to do "lin waan dau fu" so they could go on with the rest of the form (as opposed to even just doing the form!) I eventually came to the conclusion that it's a terrible waste of time

I also think that forms today are terribly bogged down with outdated and or never were useful "fluff"....

Doing what I do today, people see functional skills in a few months, not years, that makes me (and them) happy....

Outside of certain forms that were created to produce physical results ( Sanchin, tensho, Iron wire, etc) I always viewed forms as "grading tools", so dropping the ones I felt I didn't need was pretty easy.

As for turnaround time for skills, there is no reason why someone can't use their chosen MA in less than a year, heck even less than 6 months, to fight with at a decent level for the level they are at.

[hskwarrior]

thats funny.....:D

For me, when i'm without a partner, it's 50% forms, 50% drills.

but in class, its 50 % drilling, 15 % forms, 35% sparring. for the time being.

my students requested to back off on forms for a while, but i take out the combo's or phrasing as i've heard and and drill the hell out of those. and when we drill, its always light at first, medium strength and speed next, then hard and fast.

that way, i can still keep them within the range of forms they'd be learning.

[hskwarrior]

San Juro Ronin,

my sifu would always ask me if i were to give any forms, which ones would i keep. the answer is the staples. i could do without most of the weapon forms, since i won't be carrying a kwan do around on my back anytime soon.

but again, forms are great to learn if you are intending to pass the style down traditionally to someone. The sad thing is, hopefully not, but losing the forms to memory just to enhance certain aspects of your skills.

I'm not sure if anyone had ever heard of a form that you wanted to learn but discovered that it didn't exist anymore.

[sanjuro_ronin]

San Juro Ronin,

my sifu would always ask me if i were to give any forms, which ones would i keep. the answer is the staples. i could do without most of the weapon forms, since i won't be carrying a kwan do around on my back anytime soon.

but again, forms are great to learn if you are intending to pass the style down traditionally to someone. The sad thing is, hopefully not, but losing the forms to memory just to enhance certain aspects of your skills.

I'm not sure if anyone had ever heard of a form that you wanted to learn but discovered that it didn't exist anymore.

Agreed, I think that in the old days only a handful, if that, would ever learn all the forms, simple because they were taight to only those that were gonna carry the ssystem.
Nowadays they are all taught and at times, prioritized over actual drills and fighting, not a good thing in my view.

[hskwarrior]

Nowadays they are all taught and at times, prioritized over actual drills and fighting, not a good thing in my view.

I agree with that, and was in that boat until my students began getting into fights alot. then i figured, okay, they are having to use their gung fu in clubs, out in the streets, and so forth, so i chose to drill their basics and make them spar.

for myself, before i officially learned gung fu, i was a street fighter and comfortable being in a fight. so anything i learned from that point on was all gravy baby....more for me to use in a scrap. no not on a scrap, but in one.;)

i take that mentality and try to keep my gung fu as real as i can.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ideally for me was:
10% Basics
20% Forms
30% Drills (with & without pads)
40% Sparring

Reply]
30% - BASICS

30% STRENGTH, ENDURANCE AND FLEXIBILITY CONDITIONING

30%- APPLICATION, USAGE AND SPARRING (INC. AGAINST FULLY RESISTING)

10% QI GONG & FORM WORK **AFTER** YOU HAVE FUNCTIONAL FIGHTING SKILLS.

[golden arhat]

Dear all,
How do you reproduce a form you have just learnt after watching the instructor performed only a few times in a seminar. I can not do it at the moment, so I need your help. Which part of the body do you watch, when the instructor is demonstrating the form?
I know good dancers can reproduce 70 - 80% of a dance routine after watching it only once. How do they do it?

Thank you

watch his crotch


intently :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Letting go of something you have spent a lot of time doing is hard. And being part of the "mo lum" is an emotional attachement, and a sentimental one.

Dropping like 10 to 15 years of your life is hard, it's like losing your religion

But because I sent hours trying to teach a person to do "lin waan dau fu" so they could go on with the rest of the form (as opposed to even just doing the form!) I eventually came to the conclusion that it's a terrible waste of time

I also think that forms today are terribly bogged down with outdated and or never were useful "fluff"....

Doing what I do today, people see functional skills in a few months, not years, that makes me (and them) happy....

Even though our own demise is imminent and inevitable, what can one do but strive on? ~ buddha :p

I can see how a lot of people could see anything as a waste of time. :)

[diego]

Just do the parts you remember and make up the rest. It will have the same level of effectiveness.

tool.......

[diego]

good thread people...any tips on what dancers watch?.

[diego]

i believe in the us its called

dancing with the stars way to drop the ball Klutz, lol.

[golden arhat]

way to drop the ball Klutz, lol.

p!ss off


r-tard

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Thank for all your help.


lkfmdc

Not to tear this thread down and burn the house to the ground (no, not me! not me!) LOL

but anyway, I think this is one of the problems, it isn't easy to just "copy" movement for many. I know that guys like Lama Pai Sifu, CJurakPT, Steve Ventura and I would watch CTS and learn by imitation. We got very good at it. LOL I remember when YC Wong came to NYC and taught the first Pek Gwa set to us. We picked it up in 20 minutes, he was sort of amazed saying it usually takes an all day seminar to get people to learn it, then he wanted to know if he could teach something else to make up for such a short seminar (YC Wong is a very good teacher)


Sifu Ross,
How did you learnt the form in 20 minutes? What part of the body did you look at to help you to remember the form?


Becca,
The key is already having the individual movements down pat. You do enough dancing, learn enough routines, you will have a very nice repertoire. Forms are a lot like dancing in this respect. The better your repertoire, the easier it is to pick up new forms...

This does not mean you can’t learn a lot from forms, but they are what they are.

I agreed with you. Unfortunately, I have not done those forms or the individual moves before. Therefore, I could not remember much after the seminar. This means I am wasting my time & money to attend any seminar in the future, if I cannot remember what I have just learnt!


Thank you
Hitman

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some forms are just easy to pick up.

Personally I always took forever to learn a form because I was always "wasting time" trying to figure out what each move was and how to use it a fight.
Not the best way to do things when learning a form.

[diego]

p!ss off


r-tard

lol you're the second person that replied to me today and told me to leave them alone...how does someone knock on your door and you are the one bothering them?...arguing with the wifey are we?

[Lucas]

IMO

it depends on you.

For me if I am learning a new form, and its going to be a quick study, I pay a lot of attention to the feet.

For me, the hands come very naturally, i can often spot the movement 1 or 2 times on the hands and get it down, so i pay more attention to weight distribution, footwork, and the like by watching feet.

My first sifu used to tell me he could roughly tell how long someone had been practicing martial arts, any style, by watching their feet when they perform or fight. IE: Novice, intermediate, advanced.

That always stuck with me.

[diego]

on the real though, they say bruce lee could see your form and come back and do it better than you, i'm curious if dancers have a science to disecting movement for the freestyle jazz type component, yanamean...

[Lucas]

on the real though, they say bruce lee could see your form and come back and do it better than you, i'm curious if dancers have a science to disecting movement for the freestyle jazz type component, yanamean...

It's probably very similar if not the same as what natural martial artists display in being able to assimilate movement.

[diego]

It's probably very similar if not the same as what natural martial artists display in being able to assimilate movement.
has anyone put to paper the science or art of disecting form tho is the info we are in requirement of:)

[Becca]

I agreed with you. Unfortunately, I have not done those forms or the individual moves before. Therefore, I could not remember much after the seminar. This means I am wasting my time & money to attend any seminar in the future, if I cannot remember what I have just learnt!


No, just pick one aspect to focus on, something similar to what you already know. For example, if you know it's going to be an iron body seminar, start brushing up on the iron body you already know starting a few weeks before hand so anything new you are shown will have some context for you to relate it to.