Black Tiger Fighting Set

[WinterPalm]

Here's a clip of our fighting set Toisan Hak Fu Da Kuen.
Never mind the focus issues...

Also, the set isn't usually done that fast.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7708410491617740040

Enjoy!

[lkfmdc]

interesting, this looks a lot like Wai Hong's set, are you guys related??

[doug maverick]

your movements look very good impressive, but i was kinda bored cause it didn;t look like you were putting any power behind the moves just speed. maybe if you did it at its normal speed you would've had that power that seperates master demo's from regular demo's. but again good form, and nice to see people putting themselves out there on the net espeicially with all the kung fu bashing thats going on.

[Satori Science]

your movements look very good impressive..... again good form, and nice to see people putting themselves out there on the net espeicially with all the kung fu bashing thats going on.

Agreed, nice one dude! It can be really tuff putting yourself out there like that, especailly with all the haters and "masters in theory" out there. Posting your forms is nerve raking to say the least. It looked dope though, looking forward to hookin up next weekend and training bro!

[WinterPalm]

your movements look very good impressive, but i was kinda bored cause it didn;t look like you were putting any power behind the moves just speed. maybe if you did it at its normal speed you would've had that power that seperates master demo's from regular demo's. but again good form, and nice to see people putting themselves out there on the net espeicially with all the kung fu bashing thats going on.

Although the focus was speed as it was a demo...and I've since learned a lot more about power...there was some there, maybe too quick for you to see?;)
Also, I'm nowhere near a master...We don't normally do demos but put this one on as a fundraiser for a film project we had going.

I don't know who Wai Hong is...but there are some sets I've seen around youtube and whatnot that have similarities...as far as I know, they have a common ancestor.

SS, thanks man! We should have a good time.

[lkfmdc]

I don't know who Wai Hong is...



YOu do black tiger and you don't know who Wai Hong is? Head of the Fu Jow Pai/Black Tiger kung fu federation? :confused:

The form you do is pretty much identical to their form

[brothernumber9]

It is entirely plausible that WinterPalm has never heard of Sifu Wai Hong or Fu Jow Pai. But WinterPalm, you have been a member of this forum for a fair while, and it is a little hard to beleive you don't know of the politics surrounding Black Tiger/Hak Fu Mun/Fu Jow Pai.
If you have just ignored it, then I can't blame you, plus you are in Canada. But politics aside, Wai Hong is almost like a godfather of east coast U.S. kung fu as a whole. He put up some of the earliest all chinese style tournaments on the east coast, and one of the first to introduce CMA full contact (all level attacks allowed).
I persnally know little to nothing of any black tiger related arts other than what you guys (You JMD and maybe one or two others) have posted here and on youtube and the like, but I am aware that there is a perspective that Black Tiger/Hak Fu Mun/Fu Jow Pai are relatively the same branching off from some generations past.

[lkfmdc]

anything is possible, I just find it a bit weird (is that the right word?)

[brothernumber9]

Certainly no more weird than what is propgated as TCMA these days; at least in the U.S.

[WinterPalm]

What can I say? I guess I don't get out that much! :o

I'm all for meeting and talking and training with people...but I don't really care about the politics, or, for that matter, much of what anyone else is doing.
Sifu teaches me top-notch kung fu and I'm very happy and honoured to learn it.


I do believe that there is some branching off somewhere in the distant past...but I'm not really concerned with that. I'm concerned with what I've got now, what I'm learning now, and how to apply it.

Could you post a video of their set?

[doug maverick]

Although the focus was speed as it was a demo...and I've since learned a lot more about power...there was some there, maybe too quick for you to see?
Also, I'm nowhere near a master...We don't normally do demos but put this one on as a fundraiser for a film project we had going.

funny you should mention the thing about your film project as i am a filmmaker, so when i was looking at the form i was judging it from that aspect. when adding that tension to your form and taking characteristics like a tiger it ups the level of the form(thats what i mean by the seperation from master to normal person)it gives the form life(thats the word i wanted yo use instead of power) but ou had the people clapping did you raise the money for the film. whats it about.

and to lkfmdc, isn't wai hong si gung retired now. i know he still does some siminars here in there in the city i been to a few, but i thought he was mostly retired now.

[WinterPalm]

funny you should mention the thing about your film project as i am a filmmaker, so when i was looking at the form i was judging it from that aspect. when adding that tension to your form and taking characteristics like a tiger it ups the level of the form(thats what i mean by the seperation from master to normal person)it gives the form life(thats the word i wanted yo use instead of power) but ou had the people clapping did you raise the money for the film. whats it about.

and to lkfmdc, isn't wai hong si gung retired now. i know he still does some siminars here in there in the city i been to a few, but i thought he was mostly retired now.

Unfortunately, with the influx of wushu and other modern performance (ie not combative arts), people are expecting something that traditional arts cannot offer them in terms of a spectacle. So I tried to speed the set up and put on a show. Since the bulk of the population has no idea what kung fu actually looks like, they were happy.
It actually became a competition between myself and the drummer to see who could go the fastest.
That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a set like that from time to time, it definately works the cardio in a different way.

The dude runnign the theatre that performance was from was supposed to, in his exact words "promote the he ll" out of our event. He did nothing. Very few people showed but we still raised a couple hundred dollars.
Then some of the crucial members of the team went awol and the project is on hiatus. There's a video of a trailer on google video attached to the same user as the fighting set. You can see our staff video on there as well.

[doug maverick]

i doint know how it is in canada but i've done lots of traditional stuff without any flips or high flying and it was well recieved in fact i once produced a kung fu movie as a play, and all the choreagraphy was traditional(with the occaisonal flip for theatrics) we did a show in the nyc chinatown and people went ape **** over it. it was even shown in the news papers in china.

But yeah it sucks when people say one thing and do another. one point of purpose in the film undustry much like the martial arts world people talk alot of **** they can;t back up. but its cool you guys at least raised some money.

[David Jamieson]

linky no worky for me. did you delete it?

Ross-

I wouldn't say the set is "exactly" the same as wai hongs. I've seen Tak Wah Eng perform a set that is remarkably similar and posted it here before with comments. I also alluded to my previous teachers own comment that he had been in contact with and exchanged with a person from wai hong's organization.

In my eyes, this falls into the category of "hey, lookit how that buk sing clf guy does the baksillum set. It looks almost exactly the same as the wing lams sets!" lol

[WinterPalm]

i doint know how it is in canada but i've done lots of traditional stuff without any flips or high flying and it was well recieved in fact i once produced a kung fu movie as a play, and all the choreagraphy was traditional(with the occaisonal flip for theatrics) we did a show in the nyc chinatown and people went ape **** over it. it was even shown in the news papers in china.

But yeah it sucks when people say one thing and do another. one point of purpose in the film undustry much like the martial arts world people talk alot of **** they can;t back up. but its cool you guys at least raised some money.

I have also done well-received performances but I always try to put a bit of extra something or another to give people a show. We don't have a lot of sets and don't generally train them for a show so it is hard to put together a series of sets because they are for training and not for show.
We've had a lot of success when Sifu was hosting the events and putting on the show. I remember doing knife attacks with him and going flying over his hip and landing on the ground with a horrible thud (cement floor) and yelling as I took the impact. A lot of people gasped and it was a great show!
Kung Fu demos by traditional people are cool but I would rather see hardcore applications or just two guys going at it and showing what they train to do.
As a Kung Fu guy, I would much rather see the real content of the sets, as I'm sure you do, but the public doesn't know the difference and can't really appreciate it like knowledged people can.

[David Jamieson]

ok, can see it now.

[nospam]

It is funny. Forms or patterns are one of the first things we learn and for many remain the thing most mis-understand. There are so many levels to patterns and as many reasons for them as there are patterns out there.

Some styles have many patterns to advance a students understanding while others use fewer patterns but change or add the dynamics.

Some styles (teachers moreso) purposefully show patterns a certain way to the public (usually to show only 1st level style information). Sadly, to many practitioners patterns have fallen to nothing more than fodder for the paying customer..the student. Even more sadder, many a practitioner has lost the ability to see their own patterns for their original purpose.

Tempo in a pattern...good for you. Mix things up. It is the only way to learn and hopefully will provide insight.

Patterns are an integral piece of ones' gung fu puzzle and a larger piece to ones' style.

nospam
:cool:

[WinterPalm]

It is funny. Forms or patterns are one of the first things we learn and for many remain the thing most mis-understand. There are so many levels to patterns and as many reasons for them as there are patterns out there.

Some styles have many patterns to advance a students understanding while others use fewer patterns but change or add the dynamics.

Some styles (teachers moreso) purposefully show patterns a certain way to the public (usually to show only 1st level style information). Sadly, to many practitioners patterns have fallen to nothing more than fodder for the paying customer..the student. Even more sadder, many a practitioner has lost the ability to see their own patterns for their original purpose.

Tempo in a pattern...good for you. Mix things up. It is the only way to learn and hopefully will provide insight.

Patterns are an integral piece of ones' gung fu puzzle and a larger piece to ones' style.

nospam
:cool:


Interesting...
I am of the mind that forms teach us, that few but very highly regarded and efficient ones are the key. The way I've learned, each new form I pick up changes the way I do the last one. So not only is it a new set of movements/applications/ conditioning (development) it is also a new piece of the puzzle as I go along and each one greatly influences the one before.

I hear what you are saying about changing the dynamics. Sifu shows me the movements, the applications, the way the set is officially done, then gives me alternatives...ie speed, tempo, power etc.

If I performed the set today, about 1.75 years later, after all this time of doing iron rings, iron palm, sparring, and daily practice, plus learning a good portion of our advanced fighting set, the form would look way different.
Not only is that video showing our set the way I did it at the time, it is showing to a good extent my knowledge and understanding from that time.

[SIFU RON]

Good performance Winter Palm,

You have very good posture, stances, and move well.

It appears to me to be a mixture ( combination) of a few different Styles.
Closed Fist and Animal Styles. Your Staff is done well too. You move as though you have an understanding of the application of the moves.

Gymnastics are seen in Wu Shu. Your performance seems more Traditional to me and I like it, well done.

Best to U ;)

Sifu Ron

[WinterPalm]

Good performance Winter Palm,

You have very good posture, stances, and move well.

It appears to me to be a mixture ( combination) of a few different Styles.
Closed Fist and Animal Styles. Your Staff is done well too. You move as though you have an understanding of the application of the moves.

Gymnastics are seen in Wu Shu. Your performance seems more Traditional to me and I like it, well done.

Best to U ;)

Sifu Ron

Thanks Sifu Ron!

Sifu shows me the applications to all the techniques and explains the reasoning behind them. On a good day I am fighting when I do my sets.
Although I doubt I'll ever actually fight with a staff, there is interesting and different footwork in the weapon forms that I've incorporated into my free sparring...among other good reasons to practice weapons.

[SIFU RON]

post some more up the road, I'll do the same off and on.

I know for sure in addition to what I said, you are whom you say you are.

Thanks, Sifu Ron :D

[WinterPalm]

post some more up the road, I'll do the same off and on.

I know for sure in addition to what I said, you are whom you say you are.

E-Mail me at

Wahque@yahoo.com

Thanks, Sifu Ron :D

Pardon?
.....

[David Jamieson]

Good performance Dave.

Nice set.

[jmd161]

I liked the performance as well... I keep saying it looks a lot like Wai Hong's stuff like Ross said. There is so much lost and secretive history regarding Black Tiger styles, that we may never no where they crossed paths or if they even crossed paths for that matter.

I'm starting to believe that Black Tiger went in many different directions kinda like what i've heard of Northern Praying Mantis with seven star, 8step etc.. There are some very similar techniques though in what i've seen from Fu Jow Pai and Hak Fu Pai. I


jeff:)