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Karol
08-18-2000, 03:28 AM
I am wondering from those of you who read the book if it is a good book if i just want to read the basic princibles of JKD. I currently want to apply all forms of martial arts to my current training. Would this be a good book to read, or are there better ones out there?

-Thank you for your time.

Budokan
08-25-2000, 10:30 AM
I'm a karateka (Shotokan) and I've been reading the Tao for about two weeks now, slowly assimilating the info as I go along. Like anything else it's just another forum to get ideas and perhaps bolster your own style with some of Lee's ideas. Still, it gives great insight into this man's mind and thought processes, so I like it on that account. IMO you could do a lot worse than read this book--but read others as well!

J.L.BLACKSTONE
08-31-2000, 06:12 PM
'TIMING IS BEST WHEN THE OPPONENT IS
RUSHING IN. THE TAO OF JEET KUNE DO.
ONE OF THE MANY PROFUNDITIES,LUCK.

kickinthepants
08-31-2000, 07:43 PM
I've heard that Bruce did not write the Tao of JKD in its book form, but rather it was compiled from several of his writtings over the years. This does not disqualify the info contained within, but has anyone else heard this?

origenx
08-31-2000, 10:10 PM
Yes, I think the ToJKD may have been compiled post-humously from notes he had made - alot from during the time he was bedridden for months with his back injury.

I haven't read it in a while. I probably should, because it would make more sense to me now that I've had more training and can relate better to what he was talking about.

sct82abn
09-23-2000, 10:00 PM
it says right at the beginning with the intro by LINDA LEE CADWELL that she and DAN INOSANTO put the book together posthumously from BRUCE'S writings.

ghoyd
09-24-2000, 04:07 AM
Karol,

Here's a little taste of the first chapter. I happened to have this in text.
**************************************
If you do want to buy the book, you can get a discount
HERE (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897500482/midwesterjunfanf)
************************************

ON ZEN

To obtain enlightenment in martial art means the extinction of everything which obscures the
"true knowledge", the "real life". At the time, it implies boundless expansion and, indeed,
emphasis should not fall on the cultivation of the particular department which merges into the
totality, but rather on the totality that enters and unites that particular department.

The way to transcend karma lies in the proper use of the mind and will. The oneness of all life
is a truth that can be fully realized only when false notions of a seperate self, whose destiney can
be considered apart from the whole, are forever annihilated.

Voidness is that which stands right in the middle between this and that. The void is all-inclusive,
having no opposite--there is nothing which it excludes or opposes. It is living void, because all
forms come out of it and whoever realized the void is filled with life and power and the love of
all beings.

Turn into a doll made of wood: it has no ego, it thinks nothing, it is not grasping or sticky. Let
the body and limbs work themselves out in accordance with the discipline they have undergone.

If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Moving, be like
water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.

Nothingness cannot be defined; the softest thing cannot be snapped.

I'm moving and not moving at all. I'm like the moon underneath the waves that ever go on
rolling and rocking. It is not, "I am doing this", but rather, an inner realization that "this is
happening through me", or "it is doing this for me". The consciousness of self is the greatest
hinderance to the proper execution of all physical action.

The localization of the mind means its freezing. When it ceases to flow freely as it is needed, it is
no more than the mind in its suchness.

The "Immovable" is the concentration of energy at a given focus, as at the axis of a wheel,
instead of dispersal in scattered activities.

The point is the doing of them rather than the accomplishments. There is no actor but the
action; there is no experiencer but the experience.

To see a thing uncolored by one's own personal preferences and desires is to see it in its own
pristine simplicity.

Art reaches its greatest peak when devoid of self-consciousness. Freedom discovers man the
moment he loses concern over what impression he is making or about to make.

The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all
will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you
want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and
"against" is the mind's worst disease.

Wisdom does not consist of trying to wrest the good from the evil but in learning to "ride" them
as a cork adapts itself to the crests and troughs of the waves.

Let yourself go with the disease, be with it, keep company with it--this is the way to be rid of it.

An assertion is Zen only when it is itself an act and does not refer to anything that is asserted in
it.

In Buddhism, there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing special. Eat your
food, move your bowels, pass water, and when your tired go lie down. The ignorant will laugh
at me, but the wise will understand.

Establish nothing in regard to oneself. Pass quickly like the non-existent and be quiet as purity.
Those who gain will lose. Do not procede others, always follow them.

Do not run away; let go. Do not seek, for it will come when least expected.

Give up thinking as though not giving it up. Observe techniques as though not observing.

There is no fixed teaching. All I can provide is an appropriate medicine for a particular ailment.

Buddhism's Eight-Fold Path

The eight requirements to eliminate suffering by correcting false values and giving true
knowledge of life's meaning have been summed up as follows:

1. Right views (understanding): You must see clearly what is wrong.

2. Right purpose (aspiration): Decide to be cured.

3. Right speech: Speak so as to aim at being cured.

4. Right conduct: You must act.

5. Right vocation: Your livelihood must not conflict with your therapy.

6. Right effort: The therapy must go forward at the "staying speed", the critical velocity that
can be sustained.

7. Right awareness (mind control): You must feel it and think about it incessantly.

8. Right concentration (meditation): Learn how to contemplate with the deep mind.

ART OF THE SOUL

The aim of art is to protect an inner vision into the world, to state in aesthetic creation the
deepest psychic and personal experiences of a human being. It is to enable those experiences
to be intelligible and generally recognized within the total framework of an ideal world.

Art reveals itself in psychic understanding of the inner essence of things and gives form to the
relation of the man with nothing, with the nature of the absolute.

Art is an expression of life and transcends both time and space. We must employ our own souls
through art to give new form and a new meaning to nature or the world.

An artist's expression is his soul made apparent, his schooling, as well as his "cool" being
exhibited. Behind every motion, the music of his soul is made visible. Otherwise, his motion is
empty and empty motion is like an empty world--no meaning.

Eliminate "not clear" thinking and function from your root.

Art is never decoration, embellishment; instead, it is work of enlightenment. Art, in other
words, is a technique for aquiring liberty.

Art calls for complete mastery of techniques, developed by reflection within the soul.

"Artless art" is the artistic process within the artist; its meaning is "art of the soul". All the
various moves of all the tools means a step on the way to the absolute aesthetic world of the
soul.

Creation in art is the psychic unfolding of the personality, which is rooted in the nothing. Its
effect is a deepening of the personal dimension of the soul.

The artless art is the art of the soul at peace, like moonlight mirrored in a deep lake. The
ultimate aim of the artist is to use his daily activity to become a past master of life, and so lay
hold of the art of living. Masters in all branches of art must first be masters of living, for the soul
creates everything.

All vague notions must fall before a pupil can call himself a master.

Art is the way to the absolute and to the essence of human life. The aim of art is not the
one-sided promotion of spirit, soul and senses, but the opening of all human capacities --
thought, feeling, will -- to the life rhythm of the world of nature. So will the voiceless voice be
heard and the self be brought into harmony with it.

Artistic skill, therefore, does not mean artistic perfection. It remains rather a continuing medium
or reflection of some step in psychic development, the perfection of which is not to be found in
shape and form, but must radiate from the human soul.

The artistic activity does not lie in art itself as such. It penetrates into a deeper world in which all
art forms (of things inwardly experienced) flow together, and in which the harmony of soul and
cosmos in the nothing has its outcome in reality.

It is the artistic process, therefore, that is reality and reality is truth.

The Path To Truth

1. SEEKING AFTER TRUTH

2. AWARENESS OF TRUTH (and its existence)

3. PERCEPTION OF TRUTH (its substance and direction -- like the perception of
movement)

4. UNDERSTANDING OF TRUTH (A first-rate philosopher practices it to understand it --
TAO. Not to be fragmented, but to see the totality -- Krishnamurti)

5. EXPERIENCING OF TRUTH

6. MASTERING OF TRUTH

7. FORGETTING THE TRUTH

8. FORGETTING THE CARRIER OF TRUTH

9. RETURN TO THE PRIMAL SOURCE WHERE TRUTH HAS ITS ROOTS

10. REPOSE IN THE NOTHING

JEET KUNE DO

The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify.

Jeet Kune Do words the superficial, penetrates the complex, goes to the heart of the problem
and pinpoints the key factors.

Jeet Kune Do does not beat around the bush. It does not take winding detours. It follows a
straight line to the objective. Simplicity is the shortest distance between two points.

Jeet Kune Do favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms, and since Jeet Kune Do has
no style, it can fit in with all styles. As a result, Jeet Kune Do utilizes all ways, and is bound by
none, and likewise uses any techniques or means which serves its end.
********************************


Gary Hoyd
http://www.geocities.com/ghoyd/
MIDWESTERN JUN FAN FIGHTING ALLIANCE

The Iceman
09-24-2000, 07:10 AM
If you are interested in a book about JKD that
unlike the Tao is actually worth reading you
should pick up the Artist Of Life the answer
to Jeet Kune Do is in that book.

The Iceman
09-25-2000, 10:15 AM
The first time I read the Tao I thought it was
mess and it still was a mess when I was looking
at it just a couple of years ago. Artist Of Life
does have that feel to it as well but John Little
did take some care in preparing the book for publ
ication. More than was ever done with the Tao.The
Tao is a text that was produced solely for the wa-
nt of profit any benefit to the reader is purely
accidental.

sct82abn
09-26-2000, 04:43 AM
all i can say to that is

opinions are like *******s,

everyone has one and they usually stink.

Master Po
09-27-2000, 10:57 PM
Well I can see how the Tao would confuse people. When I first got the book I was totally lost. I would definatly not recomend the book to a beginer looking to see what JKD is all about. The book is a collection of notes by Bruce that he was going to make a book out of. He died before he could finish the book so they published his notes.

That being said it has been about five years since I first got the book and I can say without a doubt it is one the most powerful books I have ever read. It has changed my life in many ways!! Its not so much a martial arts book as it is an outlook or a way of life.

Hope that helped. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Iceman
09-28-2000, 08:23 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Sct82abn

You must be an intellectual giant

HuangKaiVun
10-02-2000, 04:32 AM
Nice book, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

I find it more interesting to see the manner in which Lee sees things as opposed to the actual lessons themselves.

reemul
12-23-2000, 01:41 PM
Its really helpful in understanding how JKD fighters think, and has enabled me to beat them easily in tournament. I think a lot of the philosophy is misunderstood or mis-applied with regard to the "traditional" systems.

Insynergy
12-25-2000, 07:23 AM
In the book itself it is stated that "he did not intend it to be a how-to book... he intended it as a record of one man's way of thinking and as a guide, not a set of instructions." It is more a collection of notes than a book, so don't treat it as a cover-to-cover read. More than anything, take what is in the pages as inspiration, and a basis for your own thoughts and ponderings. Do not look for principles, rather, look for suggestions. My suggestion - read it, and any other book that people strongly suggest. Knowledge is priceless - if you gain nothing else out of it, at least you will have an impressive looking library :)

stickfighter
01-04-2001, 04:14 AM
My copy of the Tao is at least 10 years old. And just about every page has at least one caption highlighted. Every time I read this book I find something that either I missed or didn't make sense or interested me at previous readings. I agree that the book is not easy to read. But it gives a glimpse into the simplistic views on the martial arts that Bruce Lee had. No fancy pictures, just hand drawn illustrations, etc. So, even though I for one am getting tired of all the coverage that Bruce Lee continues to get in the magazines and on the web, this book is and should be a must for all martial artist regardless of styles :D

Stickfighter

Diamond Dragon
07-18-2003, 09:14 AM
I'm thinking of buying the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Does anyone here have it? Is it any good? All information is welcome.

yenhoi
07-18-2003, 10:50 AM
Yes. Buy it.

Its written by John Little.

:eek:

Kymus
07-18-2003, 06:44 PM
it's a very good book. Lots of good info and quotes in there.

Diamond Dragon
07-23-2003, 10:25 AM
Thanks for the replies. I'm about 90% sure I'll buy it and if I do I'll post my opinion about it too.

yenhoi
07-23-2003, 12:59 PM
but it really is rubbish.

I think the 'book' says as much.

:eek:

curtis
07-27-2003, 05:47 PM
yenhoi

I cant belive Im defending Bruces notes! but its not rubbish, As a matter of the fact, there are a lot of good ideas in this book.
its not the HOLY BIBLE (as so many people belive) but it is a pretty good book.

The best comparisons That I can think of is the book of five rings, "this book has been written for both the master and the novice" The more you understand the more you see!

Dont close your mind to the possibilities, beacuse there is more in this world that we dont know, than what we do.

Sincerely C.A.G.

Fu-Pau
07-27-2003, 07:51 PM
I found the book interesting when I first started learning kung fu, but after a while I came to realise that most of what was in there was not really unique, as it had always existed in kung fu.

Laughing Cow
07-27-2003, 07:57 PM
My suggestion get the book and read it for yourself.

It will give you an idea as to the thinking process of Bruce.
As noted it is not a written book, but more of a collection of notes and similar.
Some will hit you and some won't.

Would have been interesting to see how BL would have evaluated his notes if he were still alive and training today.
;)

Cheers.

Odin of Wei
08-08-2003, 08:11 AM
What do people think of the Art of War? Do you think it's better than the Tao?

I've been reading it but seems the introduction is really long. Seems that Ts'ao Ts'ao was alive during Sun Tzu....I think. :confused:

Repulsive Monkey
09-06-2003, 12:10 PM
Surely you're not comparing The Art of War to The Tao of Jeet Kun Do are you??
Sun Tzu was a proven strategist and a warrior, who also understood the Tao, whereas on the other hand The Tao of Jeet Kun Do was written by Bruce Lee.

Odin of Wei
09-08-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
Surely you're not comparing The Art of War to The Tao of Jeet Kun Do are you??
Sun Tzu was a proven strategist and a warrior, who also understood the Tao, whereas on the other hand The Tao of Jeet Kun Do was written by Bruce Lee.
Yea so where does that fit it?

hmmmmmmmmm???

yenhoi
09-08-2003, 06:49 PM
Repulsive was friends with both sun and bruce it seems.

neat.

:cool:

Shaolin-Do
09-09-2003, 11:07 PM
D@mn... Hey repulsive, what was feudal japan like? :eek:
Or was sun tzu chinese?
:confused:

apoweyn
09-10-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
Surely you're not comparing The Art of War to The Tao of Jeet Kun Do are you??
Sun Tzu was a proven strategist and a warrior, who also understood the Tao, whereas on the other hand The Tao of Jeet Kun Do was written by Bruce Lee.

What if he is? While most scholars (hell, all scholars) would probably say that The Art of War is a better book, the Tao is going to be far more immediately useful to a martial arts student.

Yeah, the concepts in Sun Tzu are applicable to martial arts. But honestly, even you can recognize the difference in utility between "attack where the enemy fortifications are weakest" and "hit him where he's not guarding." Both are relevant. One is more accessible. So from a personally practical standpoint (as opposed to a literary or even strategic standpoint), the Tao is a perfectly valid choice over Sun Tzu.

And before you get all intellectual and snooty again, "whereas on the other hand" is redundant. Clever clogs.


Stuart B.

curtis
09-11-2003, 02:08 AM
Hay App.

are you back? I havent seen any of your posting in a long time.

I agree the Art of war is a usefull resource,to any M/A.
another GREAT book is the Book of five rings.

I personaly would put these two books on the must read list.

take care. C.A.G.

Odin of Wei
09-12-2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
D@mn... Hey repulsive, what was feudal japan like? :eek:
Or was sun tzu chinese?
:confused:
NO!

Sun Tzu is a common name for an Elf.

...you **** fool. ;)

.....Oy Vey....


Originally posted by apoweyn


What if he is? While most scholars (hell, all scholars) would probably say that The Art of War is a better book, the Tao is going to be far more immediately useful to a martial arts student.

Yeah, the concepts in Sun Tzu are applicable to martial arts. But honestly, even you can recognize the difference in utility between "attack where the enemy fortifications are weakest" and "hit him where he's not guarding." Both are relevant. One is more accessible. So from a personally practical standpoint (as opposed to a literary or even strategic standpoint), the Tao is a perfectly valid choice over Sun Tzu.

And before you get all intellectual and snooty again, "whereas on the other hand" is redundant. Clever clogs.


Stuart B.
Some scholars arn't even sure if Sun Tzu was the real author.

Ts'ao Ts'ao (Cao Cao from the game) worte alot of stuff he thought was good...yet took out things he thought was irrelvent.
You just can never be too sure with old texts. But yet even business men read that book and use the tatics during the "battle of work".

apoweyn
09-15-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by curtis
Hay App.

are you back? I havent seen any of your posting in a long time.

I agree the Art of war is a usefull resource,to any M/A.
another GREAT book is the Book of five rings.

I personaly would put these two books on the must read list.

take care. C.A.G.

Hey Curtis,

I hang around the main forum most of the time. This one was very quiet for a long time. So I stopped showing up.

Seems to be picking up though, yeah?


Stuart B.

PangQuan
06-28-2007, 12:42 PM
"Presently (2003?) in its twentieth printing and offered in nine languages, The Tao of Jeet Kune Do, for well over a decade a bestseller, has lined the pockets of a few at the expens of misleading countless martial artists of all ages and levels of proficiency. Hopefully the day will come when the great masters whos writings are contained in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do will be honored, both in print and monetarily, for their work that has for too many years been wrongly and purposely credited to Bruce Lee. Perhaps the worst example of plagiarism occured in 2000 when the estate's author John Little wrongly attributed to Bruce Lee the writing ("The Passionate State of Mind") of renowned philosopher (and the recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom) Eric Hoffer!"
~Tom Bleecker
Unsettled Matters
The life and death of Bruce Lee


I was going to put this in the "Other Related Arts" section, but I thought it would get better responses here.

Not sure how many of you actually read that entire biography that KF posted, written by Tom Bleecker, but this is near the end, and I feel is quite a valid concern in regards to the works that are in Tao of Jeet Kune Do that are plagiarised and NOT the original works of Bruce Lee.

Not to discredit any thing Bruce Lee had done in life, but as we all know, Tao of Jeet Kune Do, was not something Bruce Lee had done in life. Would BL have gone to the lengths of making much of this information and MA material appear as his original thoughts and concepts? Doubtful. Though its of no doubt that Bruce had developed his own thoughts, processes, concepts, ideals, etc. about martial arts, I for some reason would like to doubt that Bruce Lee would try to take another, past martial artists, credit for himself.

So, what can actually be done about this today. Can anything be done?

What are some of you're thoughts on this? Or do any of you even care? Possibly not.

sanjuro_ronin
06-28-2007, 12:46 PM
Was there anything original in the TofJKD ???

GeneChing
06-28-2007, 12:54 PM
That was one of my big issues with Little's Lee series for Tuttle. He pillaged Lee's notes but didn't do the research beyond that. Lee was a philosophy student. Many of the notes published in the series were clearly class notes, never meant to be published. The same problem pervades TofJKD, which despite what was depicted in Dragon, was also published posthumously. It really wasn't fair to Lee to publish his notes. However, given the legend that followed, it was understandable.

It's also very amusing to see JKD followers quote the gospel of Lee, not realizing that it's actually Buddha or Hoffer or whoever.

sanjuro_ronin
06-28-2007, 12:56 PM
That was one of my big issues with Little's Lee series for Tuttle. He pillaged Lee's notes but didn't do the research beyond that. Lee was a philosophy student. Many of the notes published in the series were clearly class notes, never meant to be published. The same problem pervades TofJKD, which despite what was depicted in Dragon, was also published posthumously. It really wasn't fair to Lee to publish his notes. However, given the legend that followed, it was understandable.

It's also very amusing to see JKD followers quote the gospel of Lee, not realizing that it's actually Buddha or Hoffer or whoever.

Hence my question of originality.
When I read it and re-read it, I didn't see anything "new".

lkfmdc
06-28-2007, 01:01 PM
There are two other books from which he copied a lot of passages that found there way into "Tao"; one an old boxing bood, the other an old fencing book.

On another note, as "Tao" and "Do" are the same character (in two different dialects), the title annoys me to no end

Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"way of jeet kune way?"

way of jeet kune way of jeet kune way of jeet kune way....

sanjuro_ronin
06-28-2007, 01:08 PM
The Way of the Way of the Intercepting Fist.

The Way of the Intercepting Fist Way.

Eh...

Scott R. Brown
06-28-2007, 01:21 PM
It is doubtful the information BL found valuable enough to collect was original to the sources from which he gleaned the information. So to be fair to the "original" sources one would have to go back into history to unnamed and unknown sources.

In order for the information to be considered plagiarized it would have to be directly copied from a published volume. In order for the information to be BL"s all it requires is rewording.

lkfmdc
06-28-2007, 01:24 PM
I saw an article once that showed entite paragraphs, word for word, were taken from the two books and put into "Tao"

again, he was dead and gone when they did this, these were just his personal notes, the people responsible are his widow and the book company

rogue
06-28-2007, 01:29 PM
Is that the green eyed monster I see in this thread. Great Sigung Lee was the most original thinker ever in the martial arts. He thought thoughts that no one else ever did, synthesized techniques in such a way to break the paradigm of the day, and if he did use an idea by someone else he extrapolated it into places that even today many are still trying to comprehend. But I guess it's easy to attack someone who has progressed onto the next plane of reality. :mad:






The Real Original Lucky Louie

Firehawk4
06-28-2007, 01:34 PM
What about the Bruce Lee Books that M. Uharya authored called Bruce Lees Fighting Method the four books . are these also plagarized ?

lkfmdc
06-28-2007, 01:37 PM
Is that the green eyed monster I see in this thread. Great Sigung Lee was the most original thinker ever in the martial arts. He thought thoughts that no one else ever did, synthesized techniques in such a way to break the paradigm of the day, and if he did use an idea by someone else he extrapolated it into places that even today many are still trying to comprehend. But I guess it's easy to attack someone who has progressed onto the next plane of reality. :mad:



I hope this is a sarcastic post.....

TenTigers
06-28-2007, 01:54 PM
As stated before, Tao of JKD were simply a collection of his personal notes, and included quotes from many sources-especially Jack Dempsey's book on boxing.People have a tendancy of taking something and running with it, such as the term "Straight Blast" which is simply a slight re-naming of what Dempsey referred to as the stiff jolt-his mainstay jab.

PangQuan
06-28-2007, 01:56 PM
What about the Bruce Lee Books that M. Uharya authored called Bruce Lees Fighting Method the four books . are these also plagarized ?


Good point, what about all these other Bruce Lee books.

example: Chinese Gung Fu: The Philosophical Art of Self Defense

Lots of pictures and such.


I would like to reiterate, this is not an attack, nor an attempt to discredit any accomplishments or deeds of Bruce Lee. I personally am a fan.

We all know the "Tao" was not his doing. Physically speaking in regards to publication.

Also, much of the work yes is from sources that cannot be actually tracked down to originators and credit given. However, what about instances such as Coach Ross points out where word for word, there is plagiarism?

GeneChing
06-28-2007, 02:13 PM
In order for it to be plagiarism, Lee would have to present someone else's work (Dempsey, Hoffer or whoever) and present it as his own. Lee didn't do that. He made notes - notes that were personal and probably never meant to be published as such. I can't imagine what people would come up with if they published my notes - it would be an unintelligible mess. It was his successors who presented them as Lee's own. So it's really misattribution, not plagiarism. Lee isn't at fault here at all.

Good point on the Tao/do thing. I'm amazed I never noticed that before. How funny.

TenTigers
06-28-2007, 02:14 PM
"If you steal from one source, it's called plagerism, if you steal from alot of sources, it's called "research!";)

lkfmdc
06-28-2007, 02:15 PM
I can't imagine what people would come up with if they published my notes - it would be an unintelligible mess.



1000 years from now, "look, he was writing in some secret code!"

"really, read it to me"

"it says 'L K F M D C , arrrgggggghhhhhhhh" :D

Scott R. Brown
06-28-2007, 02:23 PM
For many BL fans it is important to learn the principles BL found valuable enough to makes notations about.

What should have been done for TofJKD was to preface it with:

These are the principles that Bruce found valuable enough to include in his personal journal and training regime. We are uncertain of the sources for these notes because he gleaned them from his numerous books on fighting arts. Anyone who can provide us with documented sources please do so in order that we may include proper citations in future printings.

PangQuan
06-28-2007, 02:31 PM
For many BL fans it is important to learn the principles BL found valuable enough to makes notations about.

What should have been done for TofJKD was to preface it with:

These are the principles that Bruce found valuable enough to include in his personal journal and training regime. We are uncertain of the sources for these notes because he gleaned them from his numerous books on fighting arts. Anyone who can provide us with documented sources please do so in order that we may include proper citations in future printings.

Excellent point, and idea!

GeneChing
06-28-2007, 04:13 PM
What should have happened is that the people who published Bruce Lee's writings should have taken the time to do their own background research. It wasn't like Lee was tapping super esoteric sources. The publishers had access to all of Lee's notes. It would have been simple enough to get a professor of philosophy on board, along with someone fairly well read in martial arts books (it's not like there were that many of them back then). They could have read over the material and either referenced it in the text or deleted it from the final publication.

If it was truly important for Lee's fans and JKD people to learn this stuff, they'd go to the source just like Lee did. Sadly, most are satisfied with TofJKD as it stands since that's a lot easier. You'd only have to crack a few books. You'd have to read a lot more to get the real story.

Firehawk4
06-28-2007, 04:40 PM
I herd that Bruce Lee had a library of about 3000 martial art books i think that most were in Chinese I think i read that he got alot of them from bookstore in Vancuver Canada and San Fransico and Hong Kong . He also was said to have learned some Southern Mantis and Red Boat Wing Chun from Yueng Fook in Seattle .

rogue
06-28-2007, 06:29 PM
If it was truly important for Lee's fans and JKD people to learn this stuff, they'd go to the source just like Lee did. Sadly, most are satisfied with TofJKD as it stands since that's a lot easier. You'd only have to crack a few books. You'd have to read a lot more to get the real story.

We prefer to be called disciples of Lee, not fans. Why would we need to read all of that? Bruce distilled any thing of value from those books that he felt was important. It's not that those philosophers and martial artists weren't smart or good, but a matter that Bruce saw things with a clarity that very, very few others did and managed to create a synergism between the two.



The Real Original Lucky Louie.

sunfist
06-29-2007, 02:39 AM
On another note, as "Tao" and "Do" are the same character (in two different dialects), the title annoys me to no end

Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"way of jeet kune way?"

way of jeet kune way of jeet kune way of jeet kune way....

But dont you get it maaan, it ENDS where it BEGINS, its, like, CIRCULAR :cool:

RD'S Alias - 1A
06-29-2007, 05:44 AM
Welcome to the dept of redundancy dept.

Scott R. Brown
06-29-2007, 08:02 AM
Welcome to the dept of redundancy dept.

Don't you mean the Department of Redundancy's Redundancy Department?

No matter which door you enter you find yourself in the same office you entered when you entered through the door into the office!!

PangQuan
06-29-2007, 08:14 AM
There is also the question of what material in the book is actually reflections and insights Bruce had written from his own mind. Of course influenced by all that he had learned, as each of us are.

How possible, or how long, is it/would it take for anyone to seperate the information from direct sources and the info that is BL original?

Going over the material in the Tao, some of it of course is going to be thoughts, concepts, ideals that have a BL twist to them if not from him directly.

At this point is it even possible to track all the sources down that BL used in his research?

rogue
06-29-2007, 08:35 AM
Trying to fully understand Bruce would be like trying to hold the sea in your hands.




The Real Original Lucky Louie.

RD'S Alias - 1A
06-29-2007, 08:49 AM
Bruce Lee was simple. He was just a carve his own path type. He liked to investigate stuff, and research and test things. He used what he felt was effective and shelved the rest.

It's interesting to note, he learned form books....I thought that wasn't possible.

Scott R. Brown
06-29-2007, 08:58 AM
Let's not over do it!

BL was an innovator and worth admiring in a number of ways and a good bad example in others; he was not all that deep or profound! Anyone well read in philosophy and MA histories and arts knows this.

He was slightly ahead of a curve that was already started by others, but he was not the first to innovate the MA and he will not be the last. There were others doing the same thing he was doing during the same time period. the methods were different, but so were the personalities and purposes of those innovators.

BL's method became well known because he made exciting movies and had charisma and he died!!! Without the movies and his death it is likely he would have gone relatively unnoticed, with an emphasis on "relatively!" According to this book he was not well liked, so it is doubtful he would have gained many followers unless he eventually matured as a person.

lkfmdc
06-29-2007, 09:10 AM
It's really clear that people want to denigrate the man who put martial arts in the world spotlight just because he is dead and can not defend himself. What a pity people envy the glorious achievments of the most innovative mind the martial arts world has ever seen. Today's MMA would not exist if it wasn't for Bruce Lee. Do you not remember enter the dragon where, in spandex trunks, years before the first UFC, he engaged in a MMA match and tapped out Samo Hung with the arm bar that later Royce became known for? Bruce Lee was teh first man to mix wrestling with superior striking tactics, expanding the entire world's view on how to train. "Be like water"! He may not be here to defend himself, but the truth remains and only very little men (midgets) would dare to defame our greatest figure

Scott R. Brown
06-29-2007, 09:18 AM
Being realistic is not the same thing as denigrating.

You should know with all your years of experience that skills are effective according to a specific context. MA history is filled with innovators who changed and modified methods according to the needs of their time. Bruce's abilities fit into a specific context, outside that context he would be killed.

I will refer you to two of Alexander the Great's associates, (It will take some time to get the names of the specific persons, but I will get them if you want them) One was a pankration champion, the other excelled at soldiering. During one of their frequent drinking bouts the soldiers were ragging on the pankration champion for not being a "REAL" warrior. The pankration champion was only an Olympic athlete and not a soldier. After much goading the pankration champion challenged the soldier and soundly defeated him whereupon the soldier grabbed a spear and ran him through killing him. Each was skilled according to their context. Each excelled according the the context of their skill set. Each was able to defeat the other according to the context of their skills. But only one ended up dead!!

lkfmdc
06-29-2007, 09:22 AM
Bruce Lee was to martial artists what the emancipation proclamation was to slavery. He liberated us from the chain of the classical mess. Free at last! Free at last! Thank G'd almighty, free at last. His style was to have no style. He fought without fighting. Didn't you get it when he said "do not concentrate on the finger". Man, don't concentrate on the finger, don't even sniff it! Use no way as a way, have no style as a style. Absorb what is useful. Disregard the rest. He combined styles, no one had ever done that before. Why do you insult such a man? Is your existance such that you can't comprehend the greatest of the Lee legacy?

Scott R. Brown
06-29-2007, 09:24 AM
LOL!! Ok now I know you are playing!! Good one!!:D

lkfmdc
06-29-2007, 09:25 AM
I thought the midgets reference would be the give away, but I guess the "sniff the finger" was too much :D

Scott R. Brown
06-29-2007, 09:27 AM
Well that and it is YOU after all. You have written enough here that your reputation makes if difficult for you to pretend foolishness! ;)

bodhitree
06-29-2007, 09:30 AM
It was the best of times it was the worst of times. To be or not to be that is the question. Parnell, we don't talk about Parnell at this table. Leo, you've still been on your journey to the east. Raskolnakov, why are you sick, have you done something wrong. Look out Janet Elanovich for number 10. 11 things that artful dodger stole, he did. Cujo then chased Jaws around. Call me Ishmail, I like boats. Lets me and Kurts go into the heart of darkness. Be like water my friend. Just then Homer reached land. four score and seven years ago our fore fathers, all citizens life liberty and the pusuit of an eye for an eye. And Winston realized "I love big brother". excerp from LKFMDC's book


I think he is guilty of plagiarism:D

lkfmdc
06-29-2007, 09:30 AM
you might also remember I almost destroyed the entire internet once by suggesting Bruce Lee wasn't everything his fans claimed he was LOL ;)

I'm sure I can still troll the newbies

PangQuan
06-29-2007, 09:34 AM
I would like to know more about this triad that Bruce "Beat into submission" as stated in that book.

Sounds like an interesting story.


Also the poison aspect of foul play is well pathed and thought out in Tom's book. Very very interesting.

The very fact that Bruce Lee was interested in finding the best means to be street defense capable says a lot. Especially as a chinese man growing up and training in traditional chinese styles.

To step out side the mold of what many CMA restricts one too is a pretty big step, then to be open and critical on an international level, making enemies, burning bridges...its a state of dedication, wrought with adversity and obsticles. Not to mention the personal battles Bruce fought on a daily basis, the balance of prescription drug use, steroids, etc.

Bruce definately walked a path not many will trod down. IMO Bruce seemed to live quite a difficult life, ending prematurely with enemies on all sides, and so close to his dreams.

I think one of the sadest things near the end of it all is that no one had Bruce's back. Of course no one can really be blamed except for Bruce himself, yet still its always a sad thing to see someone of such talent, and drive to be so lost.

And as Tom clearly points out one of the sadest things of all is that which should have protected him most, his martial arts, was a driving force that led him to much of what became his downfall.

:(

Scott R. Brown
06-29-2007, 09:35 AM
You forgot his most recent one:

"Free at last! Free at last! Thank G'd almighty, free at last."

I once had an inmate that showed me a love letter he was going to send to his gf. It read: "Baby....I need your loving......Got to have all your loving.......!! etc.

I asked him if he was suuuuuuure he wrote that poem? He assured me he had!




Did I mention he was in the locked psychiatric unit????:)

Scott R. Brown
06-29-2007, 09:39 AM
I would like to know more about this triad that Bruce "Beat into submission" as stated in that book.

Sounds like an interesting story.


Also the poison aspect of foul play is well pathed and thought out in Tom's book. Very very interesting.

The very fact that Bruce Lee was interested in finding the best means to be street defense capable says a lot. Especially as a chinese man growing up and training in traditional chinese styles.

To step out side the mold of what many CMA restricts one too is a pretty big step, then to be open and critical on an international level, making enemies, burning bridges...its a state of dedication, wrought with adversity and obsticles. Not to mention the personal battles Bruce fought on a daily basis, the balance of prescription drug use, steroids, etc.

Bruce definately walked a path not many will trod down. IMO Bruce seemed to live quite a difficult life, ending prematurely with enemies on all sides, and so close to his dreams.

I think one of the sadest things near the end of it all is that no one had Bruce's back. Of course no one can really be blamed except for Bruce himself, yet still its always a sad thing to see someone of such talent, and drive to be so lost.

And as Tom clearly points out one of the sadest things of all is that which should have protected him most, his martial arts, was a driving force that led him to much of what became his downfall.

:(

I agree, in the end it is a sad story. In the final analysis the only thing you take with you when you die is who you are, not skills or accolades!

PangQuan
06-29-2007, 09:45 AM
I agree, in the end it is a sad story. In the final analysis the only thing you take with you when you die is who you are, not skills or accolades!

So true.

IMO, this is a side of BL that needs to be seen by people who might consider themselves fans.

I knew in the past of some of what he was into during his life, yet this book shed a lot of light on many other aspects of what he was up to. After reading this, the light in which I see Bruce Lee will always be a bit different. Not in a bad, or a good way, just different.

Scott R. Brown
06-29-2007, 09:47 AM
So true.

IMO, this is a side of BL that needs to be seen by people who might consider themselves fans.

I knew in the past of some of what he was into during his life, yet this book shed a lot of light on many other aspects of what he was up to. After reading this, the light in which I see Bruce Lee will always be a bit different. Not in a bad, or a good way, just different.

Yes, he is no longer the super hero, but a real human being with demons that plagued him just like the rest of us mere mortals!

Scott R. Brown
06-29-2007, 09:49 AM
But still worth respecting in many ways. Strive to emulate his good qualities and learn from his failings! This is what gives his life meaning in today's world!

GeneChing
06-29-2007, 09:56 AM
That's a classic example. The finger and moon anecdote is taken directly from Buddhism. It's actually really easy to trace the roots of JKD. Some of it is even referenced. It's even easier now that we have web searches. Just take a look at the sidebar of the last JKD article we published Jeet Kune Do Counter Attack Strategies By David Cheng (2007 May/June (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=701)) and you'll see we did a little back research on Bruce's terminology. Research is not that hard.

Now this is where it gets interesting. I'm not convinced that the compilers of TofJKD were familiar with Lee's sources. They just reorganized his notes. Those notes were not necessarily complete. In the above example, Lee extracted a lot of his combat theory from western fencing. This is even cited in the book. However, western fencing is very specific in its terminology and theory - the product of centuries of evolution - and Lee's notes only touched on the theory, because they were, after all, just notes. A lot of JKD people have taken those 'notes' as gospel. But if they don't understand the underlying theory, then there's a major flaw in their thinking. You can take a look at that article and the sidebar and see if it was an example of just such a situation.

PangQuan
06-29-2007, 10:05 AM
But still worth respecting in many ways. Strive to emulate his good qualities and learn from his failings! This is what gives his life meaning in today's world!

Fully.

IMO having such extreme degrees of variation in BL's life, its actually a nice example of DO's and DO NOT's in regards to some aspects of MA. Especially substance abuse.

Not to mention the stresses and expectations that fame can put on ones shoulders.

rogue
06-29-2007, 10:08 AM
Yeah Gene, the internet is real reliable. :rolleyes: Look at all the people who actually see the truth about things and have been discredited by the internet.
I'm sorry Gene, but I think you're trying to protect the status quo of traditional martial arts from the clear light of truth that Bruce's writings brought to the martial artist. There is fear that if people really follow what he said that there would be the anarchy of people thinking for themselves.

I have no problem with the fact that someone had to compile Bruce's writings after he was killed by the Tongs, after all someone had to put together the Bible too.

PangQuan
06-29-2007, 10:14 AM
That's a classic example. The finger and moon anecdote is taken directly from Buddhism. It's actually really easy to trace the roots of JKD. Some of it is even referenced. It's even easier now that we have web searches. Just take a look at the sidebar of the last JKD article we published Jeet Kune Do Counter Attack Strategies By David Cheng (2007 May/June (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=701)) and you'll see we did a little back research on Bruce's terminology. Research is not that hard.

Now this is where it gets interesting. I'm not convinced that the compilers of TofJKD were familiar with Lee's sources. They just reorganized his notes. Those notes were not necessarily complete. In the above example, Lee extracted a lot of his combat theory from western fencing. This is even cited in the book. However, western fencing is very specific in its terminology and theory - the product of centuries of evolution - and Lee's notes only touched on the theory, because they were, after all, just notes. A lot of JKD people have taken those 'notes' as gospel. But if they don't understand the underlying theory, then there's a major flaw in their thinking. You can take a look at that article and the sidebar and see if it was an example of just such a situation.

now i gotta find where i left that issue lying around


I think its kind of silly that people would put so much emphasis on the Tao. Sure there are a lot of great concepts, theories, facts, etc. Yet as you say, with the right research you could find where some of this stuff comes from, and also as you say, notes: incomplete gathered, compiled and publshed by people who didnt actually take the notes, nor knew exactly what was going on in Bruce's mind as he gathered his material.

So doing extra research, finding some more in depth information on what is often lightly touched in the Tao, could give you a furthere idea of what Bruce may have been looking at when taking notes. Also to see what he decided to take and what he decided to leave behind from original sources can also be a great insight as to what Bruce was thinking.

David Jamieson
06-29-2007, 10:23 AM
"Presently (2003?) in its twentieth printing and offered in nine languages, The Tao of Jeet Kune Do, for well over a decade a bestseller, has lined the pockets of a few at the expens of misleading countless martial artists of all ages and levels of proficiency. Hopefully the day will come when the great masters whos writings are contained in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do will be honored, both in print and monetarily, for their work that has for too many years been wrongly and purposely credited to Bruce Lee. Perhaps the worst example of plagiarism occured in 2000 when the estate's author John Little wrongly attributed to Bruce Lee the writing ("The Passionate State of Mind") of renowned philosopher (and the recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom) Eric Hoffer!"
~Tom Bleecker
Unsettled Matters
The life and death of Bruce Lee


I was going to put this in the "Other Related Arts" section, but I thought it would get better responses here.

Not sure how many of you actually read that entire biography that KF posted, written by Tom Bleecker, but this is near the end, and I feel is quite a valid concern in regards to the works that are in Tao of Jeet Kune Do that are plagiarised and NOT the original works of Bruce Lee.

Not to discredit any thing Bruce Lee had done in life, but as we all know, Tao of Jeet Kune Do, was not something Bruce Lee had done in life. Would BL have gone to the lengths of making much of this information and MA material appear as his original thoughts and concepts? Doubtful. Though its of no doubt that Bruce had developed his own thoughts, processes, concepts, ideals, etc. about martial arts, I for some reason would like to doubt that Bruce Lee would try to take another, past martial artists, credit for himself.

So, what can actually be done about this today. Can anything be done?

What are some of you're thoughts on this? Or do any of you even care? Possibly not.

What he did was remove the cryptic tones of what cma was tothe best of his understanding and put it into terms an english language speaker and person of western cultural traditions could grasp.

It would be like converting fencing manuals from french and spanish to chinese and introducing prosaic and poetic memory techniques into the instructional materials.

BL removed the prosaic/poetic aspects and called a straight punch a straight punch.

He also contributed to the introduction or pathgate to a wider audience to chinese philosophical concepts. In some respects he was the seed of marrying the chinese religious and spiritual thought with the practice of chinese martial art while at the same time offering it in terms that were attractive to north american culture.

plagiarism though? Well, he didn't give face (credit) to the original stuff all too often.

Anyway, nice to see BL can still shake it up more than 30 years after he's been dead. Now THAT's a Legacy! :p

PangQuan
06-29-2007, 10:59 AM
What he did was remove the cryptic tones of what cma was tothe best of his understanding and put it into terms an english language speaker and person of western cultural traditions could grasp.

It would be like converting fencing manuals from french and spanish to chinese and introducing prosaic and poetic memory techniques into the instructional materials.

BL removed the prosaic/poetic aspects and called a straight punch a straight punch.

He also contributed to the introduction or pathgate to a wider audience to chinese philosophical concepts. In some respects he was the seed of marrying the chinese religious and spiritual thought with the practice of chinese martial art while at the same time offering it in terms that were attractive to north american culture.

plagiarism though? Well, he didn't give face (credit) to the original stuff all too often.

Anyway, nice to see BL can still shake it up more than 30 years after he's been dead. Now THAT's a Legacy! :p

Nice post and great points.

I've always personally been a fan of BL, as many MAists are. In light of reading that book KF posted, this is an aspect of the biography that i wanted to discuss, because like you, I feel its not so much of plagiarism as is led to be believed in Tom Bleeckers book. Sure there may be some examples that are, but over all, I think its pretty obvious that much of the material is gathered research. Especially today. Martial Artists now IMO are in the best state of freedom we have ever been in. In regards to the accessing of information and realism, exposing falshoods and myths.

Yes, many of the concepts, principles, and methods in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do are not new, but in the compiled format, and as you state with the emphasis put on conversion of thought processes from one society to another, its a type of work compilation that you dont generally get to see elsewhere.

GeneChing
06-29-2007, 03:04 PM
rogue, you're killing me. ;) I did the background reading for the Bible too - the Apocrypha, the Gnostic Gospels, the Kebra Nagast - but I'm like that with research. I suppose I shouldn't fault you for your shoddy research. :p

rogue
06-29-2007, 03:55 PM
How dare you sir, insult a follower of the Dragon, Great Sigung Lee! If this was Hong Kong in the early 1960's, well I shudder to even think about it. :mad:



The Real Original Lucky Louie!:p

mickey
06-30-2007, 08:38 AM
Greetings,

I thought the Tao of Jeet Kune do was written especially for Brandon Lee. It was never intended for publication. Does anyone remember this?

When it comes to the Tuttle series, I was really optimistic about the Tao of Kung fu because I thought it would really show that Bruce Lee was a traditionalist. Unfortunately, John Little totally fugged that book up major. That was the first and last book that I purchased from that series.


mickey