Iron Buddha Style?

[SouthernTiger]

Hello all,

I was wondering if anyone has heard of or practices the Iron Buddha Style. One of the few references I have is from two Green Dragon Studios instructional tapes. I was curious to know if anyone can corroborate its existence independent of Green Dragon material.

Thanks!

-Blake

[lkfmdc]

excuse me, have to go pop some popcorn, I'll be right back

[IronWeasel]

Hello all,

I was wondering if anyone has heard of or practices the Iron Buddha Style. One of the few references I have is from two Green Dragon Studios instructional tapes. I was curious to know if anyone can corroborate its existence independent of Green Dragon material.

Thanks!

-Blake



I've seen these references:

http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxermei.html

http://www.geocities.com/costaricacollege/nshaolin.html

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=125

http://www.bolawkungfu.com/index.php?sec=products

[golden arhat]

who cares ??

it wont work

:confused:

[Laukarbo]

well let me give u a more serious reply...

First of all I assume that iron buddha is something similar to Iron Wire..
in other words a breathing excersize( qi gong/hei gung)..

What can u expect from learning it ?
Stopping bullets from penetrating,being invincible...?
Of course not..its just for health and can make u stronger,you are more resistant
against illness like the flu etc. its not for fighting or wont teach u fighting..
If its something like Iron Wire fist

[IronWeasel]

well let me give u a more serious reply...

First of all I assume that iron buddha is something similar to Iron Wire..
in other words a breathing excersize( qi gong/hei gung)..

What can u expect from learning it ?
Stopping bullets from penetrating,being invincible...?
Of course not..its just for health and can make u stronger,you are more resistant
against illness like the flu etc. its not for fighting or wont teach u fighting..
If its something like Iron Wire fist


There are Iron Buddha fighting forms and weapons (staff). They use 'power blocking'...the combination punch/block that is also featured in the Noi Lick Kuen from (southern?) Shaolin.

[IronWeasel]

who cares ??

it wont work

:confused:



C'mon...aren't you too young for that kind of closed mindedness?

Where's the enthusiastic optimism of youth?

[Laukarbo]

There are Iron Buddha fighting forms and weapons (staff). They use 'power blocking'...the combination punch/block that is also featured in the Noi Lick Kuen from (southern?) Shaolin.


ok so its not similar to iron wire...
then I cant say anything about this style...:cool:

[IronWeasel]

ok so its not similar to iron wire...
then I cant say anything about this style...:cool:



You were right...there IS a strength set on par with Iron Wire, but also some fighting forms.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Green Drag-on are stupid idiots that always get the facts about their sets wrong and the mis-label the sets to get more marketing mileage out of them.

THE REAL STYLE IS called IRON (tiet) LUOHAN, not buddha, and it is From Southern china, and there are a few sets that they practice, it is pretty much almost died out style.

[Chosen-frozen]

Green Drag-on are stupid idiots that always get the facts about their sets wrong and the mis-label the sets to get more marketing mileage out of them.

THE REAL STYLE IS called IRON (tiet) LUOHAN, not buddha, and it is From Southern china, and there are a few sets that they practice, it is pretty much almost died out style.

And how is LUOHAN usually translated into English?....Buddha. Or a Buddhist equivilant to a saint to be a little clearer, but usually "a Buddha". Lighten up. The Chinese names of forms and styles get translated lots of different ways by different people. Some of the translations aren`t as clear as others, but the main idea is usually there.

[Sal Canzonieri]

And how is LUOHAN usually translated into English?....Buddha. Or a Buddhist equivilant to a saint to be a little clearer, but usually "a Buddha". Lighten up. The Chinese names of forms and styles get translated lots of different ways by different people. Some of the translations aren`t as clear as others, but the main idea is usually there.

No, Luohan is normally in english as Arhat

Fat or Fut (southern) / Fah (northern) is translated as Buddha.

South has Iron Luohan style and Fut Gar style.
North has Buddha Palm style.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Like GD's Tai Tzu Chang Chuan tapes, there are not this style whatsoever.

It is tapes of southern CLF type "long fist". Most likely from Freeman Ong.

It is an entirely different style than any TZ Long Fist.
Functions, looks, etc completely different.

the only claim that they hang the "tai zu long fist" name of the sets is because they are generally long fist sets, and so ipso facto, automatically they declared them to be of TZ Chang Quan, when they aren't from any TZ Chang Quan lineage at all, but a southern 5 Animals style lineage.

That's misleading marketing or just plain ignorance.

Plus they were done terrible too.

[golden arhat]

C'mon...aren't you too young for that kind of closed mindedness?

Where's the enthusiastic optimism of youth?

ok fine


it might work :)
















but it wont :D

[lkfmdc]

Luohan is normally in english as Arhat



and "Arhat" is just as WRONG as "Buddha"

An arhat is the aspiration of the Hinayana Buddhist tradition, which is NOT the tradition in China (it is the tradition in Thailand, Burma, etc)

Chinese Buddhism belongs to the Mahayana tradition, where the aspiration is a Boddhisatva. "LO Han" is a Boddhisatva. not an arhat

[stonewarrior67]

I learned the Iron Buddha strength set years ago, 1991 as a matter of fact, it was as Laukarbo described, a tension set with a certain amount of hypogastric breathing...it was benificial as it gave me some strength and helped my v02 max...it was not meant for fighting. Did it about six months or so and moved on to other forms.
I had a chance to see Green Dragons video on this certain set not long ago. Master Allen was the one demonstrating it. Whooooweee I had to turn it off 1/4 in to it...I could not believe how badly the form was butchered...now this comes from a guy who is not a Green Dragon basher, I believe that Allen even now in his 60's could kick some serious ass.
Hi ya Weasel hope things are well with you and yours. Tell the other guys, Mike, Bobby and Steve, howdy for me.
SW

[diego]

Like GD's Tai Tzu Chang Chuan tapes, there are not this style whatsoever.

It is tapes of southern CLF type "long fist". Most likely from Freeman Ong. Who is Freeman Ong?.

[B-Rad]

I think he was a somewhat famous teacher in Ohio (at least well known in Ohio martial arts circles). I think he died before I got involved in martial arts, so I don't know much about him. I just remember the name.

[golden arhat]

and "Arhat" is just as WRONG as "Buddha"

An arhat is the aspiration of the Hinayana Buddhist tradition, which is NOT the tradition in China (it is the tradition in Thailand, Burma, etc)

Chinese Buddhism belongs to the Mahayana tradition, where the aspiration is a Boddhisatva. "LO Han" is a Boddhisatva. not an arhat

the tradition in thailand and burma is hands down therevada buddhism not hinayana

[SouthernTiger]

Hello all,

Wow, all these replies in one day... maybe I should check this forum more often...

Anyway, I appreciate (some) of your responses to my question. I had no intention of starting a Green Dragon love/hate thread I only was curious about this style.

Sal, thanks for the lessons in semantics - I think Sifu Allen does call it "teet lo han" in chinese so perhaps "iron buddha" is not the best translation. As we all know, chinese words are quite conceptual in their meaning and translation into an english word can be problematic. Perhaps "iron-like one that achieves enlightenment through realization of buddha-nature" would be a decent conceptual translation, but that is quite ugly in our modern vernacular. :D

Iron Weasel, are you a practitioner of this style? Can you tell more about its curriculum and principles? Thanks.

stonewarrior67, did you learn any of the forms from the style other than the strength set?

To wrap up, the main reason my interest was piqued int his style was because of a book I am reading that also mentions the style. The book is a biographical novel of Kwan Saihung called "The Wandering Taoist" It may be that the author is embellishing the story a bit by mentioning this style, but that is why I asked.

Perhaps Mr. Dale Dugas could help us on this subject as I believe he was/is a student of Kwan Saihung?

Thanks all.

-Blake

[Dale Dugas]

It has been a while since I have trained with Shifu Kwan.

Never learned anything that was a form. We did lots of exercises that he called Louhans, and they were some serious body weight and partner drills to train strength, flexibility as well as range of motion.

Hope this helps.

be well, train hard

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have the vidoes of the Stone Warrior and the Iron Budhha.
I have compared them to the few versions of the Iron Wire I have.
I found them lacking in comparison.

Isokinetic exercises ( Dymanic tension through the full range of motion) are great to give you that "little something more", but I have found that very few people actually put that near maximal effort to truly reap the benefits and the longer the set the less intense it is.

[lkfmdc]

the tradition in thailand and burma is hands down therevada buddhism not hinayana

Therevada and Hinayana are the SAME THING

go look it up :rolleyes:

[monji112000]

the tradition in thailand and burma is hands down therevada buddhism not hinayana
:rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinayana_Buddhism
...

got to love them thai monks (nuns... :D)!
does any other group allow for monks to stop being "a monk" for a temporary period? I know it gets them into allot of trouble in Thailand...

[IronWeasel]

Green Drag-on are stupid idiots that always get the facts about their sets wrong and the mis-label the sets to get more marketing mileage out of them.

THE REAL STYLE IS called IRON (tiet) LUOHAN, not buddha, and it is From Southern china, and there are a few sets that they practice, it is pretty much almost died out style.



Well, Sal, all four of the sources that I cited refer to the style as "Iron Buddha".

I guess they're all just as stupid.

You sound bitter about the Marketing aspect. Does Sifu Allen owe you money?:)

[IronWeasel]

Iron Weasel, are you a practitioner of this style? Can you tell more about its curriculum and principles?


-Blake



I've never learned those forms, but I have seen them performed. I was taught a few drills and applications based on the fighting form, though.

[IronWeasel]

I had a chance to see Green Dragons video on this certain set not long ago. Master Allen was the one demonstrating it. Whooooweee I had to turn it off 1/4 in to it...I could not believe how badly the form was butchered...now this comes from a guy who is not a Green Dragon basher, I believe that Allen even now in his 60's could kick some serious ass.
Hi ya Weasel hope things are well with you and yours. Tell the other guys, Mike, Bobby and Steve, howdy for me.
SW


Hey, Bro, how's life in the old neighborhood? Fail another school levy?:D

How could that form be so different? Chicoine and Allen probably learned it at the same time!

[lkfmdc]

Well, Sal, all four of the sources that I cited refer to the style as "Iron Buddha".

I guess they're all just as stupid.

You sound bitter about the Marketing aspect. Does Sifu Allen owe you money?:)

A lot of people take issue with the Green Dragon people, for a lot of reasons

1. Doctoring a photo to place Master Chang between Allen and Chicoine to falsely claim Master Chang endorsed their program

2. Going to tournaments, video taping local schools doing sets, then copying and selling the sets

3. Mislabelling sets - the 7 star praying mantis set "Bahk Yun Tao To" means "white ape steals the peach" but it is NOT a "monkey set". Adding in some wushu monkey to the set in order to sell it as such is dishonest to say the least

I could go on, but no real point. It's a free country, they are free to sell their product, and there is no "FDA" to stop them from labeling things as such. But people who know better can also voice their dislike of the practices

[IronWeasel]

A lot of people take issue with the Green Dragon people, for a lot of reasons

1. Doctoring a photo to place Master Chang between Allen and Chicoine to falsely claim Master Chang endorsed their program

Doctored for sure...but Chang endorsed Chicoine who endorsed Allen.




2. Going to tournaments, video taping local schools doing sets, then copying and selling the sets

3. Mislabelling sets - the 7 star praying mantis set "Bahk Yun Tao To" means "white ape steals the peach" but it is NOT a "monkey set". Adding in some wushu monkey to the set in order to sell it as such is dishonest to say the least

I could go on, but no real point. It's a free country, they are free to sell their product, and there is no "FDA" to stop them from labeling things as such. But people who know better can also voice their dislike of the practices

I wasn't present for any of that. All I can say is that Sifu Allen was asked directly (in my presence...twice) about the source of some of his material, and he declined to answer.

[golden arhat]

Therevada and Hinayana are the SAME THING

go look it up :rolleyes:

dude i wouldnt know just sayin what i heard/have been told

most of the stuff i read on buddhism is about zen/pure land stuff
i find it more interesting

[stonewarrior67]

Weasel,
I Dont Know How They Are So Different. When He Was Doing It On The Video He Appeared To Be Having A Fit Instead Of Doing The Form. Just My Lousy 2 Cents. And 2 Cents Is As Bout As Much As I'm Willing To Part With For That School Levy.
We Should Get Together Sometime. Maybe Coffee At Arabica On Massillon..that's Close To You Right?

Southern Tiger..no That Is The Only Buddha Set That I Learned Sorry To Be Of Little Help.

Sw

[IronWeasel]

Weasel,
I Dont Know How They Are So Different. When He Was Doing It On The Video He Appeared To Be Having A Fit Instead Of Doing The Form.


Must've been the MAX tension...





We Should Get Together Sometime. Maybe Coffee At Arabica On Massillon..that's Close To You Right?


Aw, shucks... It's a date! :o

[Mr Punch]

and "Arhat" is just as WRONG as "Buddha"

An arhat is the aspiration of the Hinayana Buddhist tradition, which is NOT the tradition in China (it is the tradition in Thailand, Burma, etc)

Chinese Buddhism belongs to the Mahayana tradition, where the aspiration is a Boddhisatva. "LO Han" is a Boddhisatva. not an arhatNope. Luo han is arhat. Luo han quan is arhat boxing/fist.

Arhat is someone who has achieved enlightenment and so escapes the cycle of reincarnation in samsara.

Boddhisatva is someone who seeks to enlighten others through his enlightenment.

IME the terms are used with no distinction as to Theravada or Mahayana. There are greater distinctions than those two.


Sal, thanks for the lessons in semantics - I think Sifu Allen does call it "teet lo han" in chinese so perhaps "iron buddha" is not the best translation. As we all know, chinese words are quite conceptual in their meaning and translation into an english word can be problematic. Perhaps "iron-like one that achieves enlightenment through realization of buddha-nature" would be a decent conceptual translation, but that is quite ugly in our modern vernacular. :DThat's why we have the word 'arhat' which means: "one that achieves enlightenment through realization of buddha-nature"! It's Iron Arhat for goodness sake!

[lkfmdc]

Nope. Luo han is arhat. Luo han quan is arhat boxing/fist.

Arhat is someone who has achieved enlightenment and so escapes the cycle of reincarnation in samsara.

Boddhisatva is someone who seeks to enlighten others through his enlightenment.

IME the terms are used with no distinction as to Theravada or Mahayana. There are greater distinctions than those two.

That's why we have the word 'arhat' which means: "one that achieves enlightenment through realization of buddha-nature"! It's Iron Arhat for goodness sake!

Dude, you are wrong. There is no "arhat" in Mahayana Buddhism and since the only Buddhism in China is Mahayana there is no "arhat" :rolleyes:

It's just like Protestants don't have a Pope, Catholics don't hare Rabbis and Jews don't have Imans

Dear lord, read something before you say something so dumb as "the terms are used with no distinction as to Theravada or Mahayana" :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

Dear lord, read something before you say something so dumb as "the terms are used with no distinction as to Theravada or Mahayana" :rolleyes:
I read something. Turns out that something may have been wrong. :D

I'll get back to you. Don't hold your breath.

[yeshe]

In chinese ,tibetan,japanese, vietnamese tradition of the
Buddha Dharma and for that matter any nation that the teachings of the
mahayana took root has depictions and references to sravakas,pretayaka buddhas ,arhats,bodhisatvas and buddhas.
The word lohan is a transliteration ( a poor one) of the sanscrit word arhat wich literaly translated into english means "foe destroyer"
In the mahayana sutras the Buddha is described as " arhat,tathagata,samyak
sambodhi.The arhat , the one thus gone ,complely enlightend.
In the tibetan and chinese traditions arhats are usauly
depicted as monks wearing the three dharma robes of a fully ordained bhikshu.
They may carry a dharma staff ( the long staff with the rattle thing on top).
there eye brows can be long and there faces will be very human and a little
old manish.
Bodisatvas(transliterated by antienc chinese scholars
as "pu sa" as in"guan shi yin pu sa") are depicted wearing silks of many colors
jewlery such as braclets,bangles,neclaces and usualy a jewel diadem on there
head.
If one realy wants to know the true nature of arhats
and bodhisatvas,one should read the Mahapadmapudarikasutra where the Budddha Shakyamuni taught the the true nature of the hinayana and mahayana.