New 8-Step Video & Photos

[lapu_squared]

It's been a while, but we finally have some new content for everyone on 8-step.com including a video of Mr. Michael Wu, one of Grandmaster Wei's students, performing Little Cartwheel as well as some new photos, including some never before released of GM Wei. All links are included on the home page (http://www.8-step.com). If anyone wants to share any comments about the video with Mr. Wu, please just post them here and I'll make sure he gets them.

[yu shan]

Nice Lapu thanks. The clip skipped the beginning of the set, it would have been nice to see.

[lapu_squared]

Yu Shan, thanks for the comments. I checked the video again, but it appeared to start at the beginning of the form. As a point of reference, Mr. Wu starts the form in a standing position with fists at his waist. If the video doesn't start for you with him in that position, please let me know and I'll try to figure out if it's a technical problem with the video. Alternatively, is it possible your video player was still buffering and ended up skipping a small portion at the beginning? In that case, downloading it first and then playing it locally from your computer's hard drive might fix the problem. Or, when you say that the beginning was missing, are you referring to any flourishes that might be added at the beginning before Mr. Wu is standing with fists at his waist?

[yu shan]

OK got it. My Shibo just taught me this form. I must say I am very fond of it. It is really no nonsense just smash your opponent to pieces. Xia Fanche is a powerful form.

Lapu, I like your website. You are very open to share and you have a great gallery and clips. What a nice site to visit.

[lapu_squared]

Yu Shan, thanks for the kind words although I can't accept any accolades in good conscience. I'm just the web monkey. Mr. John Chang is the driving force behind the site. All thanks should go to those like Mr. Wu who have been so generous to share their videos, photos, and knowledge through the site.

[Mas Judt]

I'm curious, what is the purpose of the hopping-with-legs-together near the end?

[yu shan]

I dont have a fancy martial name to it, but you are basically jumping up high to come down with a tremendous hammerfist.

[EarthDragon]

I was taught it was a jumping power cut breaking your opponents humerous from the ulna.

Lapu, is there any reason Mr. Wu ends up facing the opposite direction? I was taught that the 5 sets taught by master Wei started and ended facing north. thanks in advance. PS any word from Dean?

[lapu_squared]

Mas Judt, the purpose of the "hopping with legs together" is to kick the opponent's leg when he tries to sweep you. Imagine person A sweeps person B. Person B jumps, but instead of jumping only to avoid the sweep, he also kicks back down at person A's sweeping leg.

EarthDragon, you're right about starting and ending the form in the same direction. I can't say for sure why Mr. Wu didn't end facing the same direction, but I would guess it's probably just the fact that there was a camera involved since he ended facing the camera. The substance of this form does actually end in the opposite direction from where it begins. It's only by adding a little flourish at the end that you turn yourself around to face the original direction. I suspect he was just interested in showing the substance and not focusing on any flourishes at the beginning and end.

As for facing north, it's funny you mention that. As it happens, GM Wei did have all his students face north when they performed forms. However, as I understand it, that wasn't tied to any tradition or standard. That was just because it was easier for GM Wei to see students practice a form from the bench where he liked to sit in the park if the students started facing north. That's all.

As for Dean, I've never met Dean myself. I did hear that he recently visited Tony Puyot though.

[EarthDragon]

Lapu,
thanks for the clairification I absolutley loved seeing more of the 8 step stuff out there and thank your shifu for being so generous. I still plan to one day get out to san jose' and meet him personally.... that would be an honnor.

I have seen many forms played with sublte differences over the years but the basic rythm and flavor are all the same nice to see it done by Mr Wu.

Its funny I was taught 8 steps forms in chinese and some of the translations sounded and meant something different than what the body does and then sometimes when I see other s perform it i have tiny epiphanies and things make more sense. You would think mandarin is hard but it doesnt compare to the chopping and hacking english does to the translations.

nice comment on facing north. I was hoping it was something escoteric like using the earths natural magnatics as we do in qigong but its awesome to know it was becuse of the direction of the bench where he sat LOL NICE!

my prayers are with tony and his family for losing thier home I knew dean visited him heard through the grapevine God Bless

[yu shan]

The Xiao Fanche I was taught does not end facing the same direction as it starts.

[EarthDragon]

Yushan whom did you learn your set from? Is this true with all Pong li forms? or just small wheel?

All 10 sets in 8 step start and end facing north at least thats what I have been taught and have heard from many others.
It was the first time I heard it was because master Wei liked to sit while he watched... As cool as that sounds I feel it might have more than that purpose.

Perhaps Feng Hua also taught this? I know that in jin gon tzu li gong and most other qigong the practioner and the patient need face North always.

However here is my translated set as taught by Shyun Kwon Long

MANTIS STANCE (TANG LANG PU CHUAN)
DOUBLE PUNCHES (CHUAN LONG CHU HAI SHR)
STEALING HANDS, POWER CUT (TOU SHOU PI JA SHR
FALLING STNACE (FAN SAN PU TUEI SHR)
LEFT BIG WHEEL (JAU SA FAN SHAI SHR)
RIGHT BIG WHEEL (YU DA FAN CHAI SHR)
LEFT BIG WHELL (JAU SA FAN SHAI SHR)
RIGHT BIG WHEEL (FAN CHE CIAN TUEN JIAO)
HIGH BLOCK LOW POWER CUT (FAN TIEN PI DI SHR)
MANTIS GROIN ATTACK (FU MA LIOU TING SHR)
DOUBLE MANTIS PULLING HANDS (TANG LANG SHUANG DI SHOU)
FALLING STANCE, SPEAR PALM (CHUAN BU YING FUNG TSANG)
STEALING HANDS, FRONT KICK (TUEI SHOU TUEN DENG JIAO)
POWER CUT (TSAI SHOU PE JIA SHR)
RIGHT BACKFIST (LOU SHOU YOU BENG CHUEI)
POWER CUT (BENG CHUEI PE JIA SHR)
DOUBLE KICK (YI DAI ER CHI SHR)
DOUBLE PUNCH (SHAUNG LUNG RU HAI SHR)
RIGHT HOOK (LOU SHOU YOU CHENG CHUEI)
CROSSING LEG, DOUBLE PULLING HANDS (JOW PAN SHUNAG LE SHOU)
50/50, PUSH ELBOW (HU TOU SHUANG BENG SHOU)
RIGHT HOOK (TSAI SHOU YOU CHENG CHUEI)
DOUBLE UPPER CUT (DEN BU SHUANG CHUAN TSANG)
TURNING DOUBLE UPPER CUT (SHUANG SAN CHUAN YUAN TSANG)
GRINDING MILL, GRION ATTACK (SZE MA DA LI SHI)
DOUBLE UPPER CUT (DEN BU SHUANG CHUAN TSANG)
RIGHT HOOK (DEN BU YOU CHENG CHUEI)
RIGHT BACKFIST (DENG SHAN YOU BENG CHUEI)
POWER CUT, CHOP NECK, CHIN ATTACK (YOU TI MOU SHOU SHR)
MANTIS STANCE (TANG LANG PU CHUEN SHOU)
RIGHT THROAT ATTACK (YOU CHOU SHOU YIN JEN SHR)
LEFT THROAT ATTACK (JOW CHOU SHOU YIN JEN SHR)
POWER CUT (TSAI SHOU PI JIA SHR)
3 DOUBLE CIRCLE OPEN PALM, WHILE STEPPING IN (JIN BU LU LU SHOU)
STEALING HANDS, STRAIGHT PUNCH (YOU SHOU SAN CHUEI SHR)
TURNING MANTIS HAND GROIN ATTACK (FEN SUEN LIOU YING TSOU)
BLOCK RIGHT , STAIGHT PUNCH (LOU SHOU WE DOU CHUEI)
MANTIS STANCE (CHI TANG LANG CHUAN FUNG SHR)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Mas Judt, the purpose of the "hopping with legs together" is to kick the opponent's leg when he tries to sweep you. Imagine person A sweeps person B. Person B jumps, but instead of jumping only to avoid the sweep, he also kicks back down at person A's sweeping leg..

Can you describe this for me? In capoeira, when you see someone sweeping, you can jump, but you always pull your leg up to your @ss, or you do a kind of 360 double kick, but you always clear your legs up high. If you let them dangle, the sweep catches your leg, and you go down hard on your ass, shoulders, or back of head. I've seen it happen at least 5 times, often a bigger guy getting rocked by a smaller dude (or dudette's) sweep.

How are you kicking at the leg?

Just for pointers, etc.....

[yu shan]

I learned Xiao Fanche from Kevin Brazier, and so far it is the only form that I know that ends facing opposite direction.

[lapu_squared]

Shaolin Wookie, you jump to raise your legs to avoid the sweep, as you suggest. Then, if you have the opportunity, instead of just bringing your legs down again to catch yourself, you kick downward, ideally at the knee. Think of the kick as stomping back down after raising your legs to avoid the sweep.

[EarthDragon]

Yushan, Not to argue with kevin for he is far more knowledgeable than I.

However I was taught this form along with 4 others by James Shyun a student of master Wei's and while james Shyun did change things from the orginal as i am starting to learn i have seen master Wei's hand written notes and his sequence starts and ends facing north.

I accidently pasted Da fan Che in my last post whoops. So I will have to dig and find the chinese written notes to look once again.
by right from memory you start xia fan

in a mantis stance north on the 1st road then after over elbow, back fist down block left punch R punch ......

you turn and face south for the 2nd road then after the jumping power cut and down block........

you turn facing north again 3rd road to a sickle........

then after the second groin grab and upper cut you turn and face south to stealing hands and then over elbow 4th road.........

then turn facing north again back first down block L punch R punch then finish in a mantis stance facing north.
Its hard to describe but maybe you can understand where your form differs... i will paste the translated version after i dig it out after class tonight.

[Tainan Mantis]

I'm curious, what is the purpose of the hopping-with-legs-together near the end?


Elbow to neck is a good application.
To apply the technique you must have secured both his left wrist with your left and his right wrist with your right.

When you jump up the goal is to have your entire body weight pulling the opponent down. This gives you a higher jump which enables you to get an elbow behind his neck.

But, the way I move my chopping hand is a little different than how it is shown in the video.

There is an article with something about Xiao Fanche here.

http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/Tennaug.htm

If the clip down load is too slow you can see it here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xeebv9aMtg&feature=user

Kevin

[Three Harmonies]

Kevin
Do you honestly think that app can be pulled off??
Thanks
Jake :cool:

[Oso]

I love this freaking set!

:D


anyways, Jake, I've been thinking of this move as a coup de grace type of thing

as most really powerful moves go, you use more time to do the move so you are more open to counters. so, this, for me, would be a follow up to a succesful stunning or blinding (not literally, just getting the head to turn or eyes ot close) quick attack that crushes with elbow, forearm or fist down into the neck.

jab -> cross -> feng -> pi

but thas jes me :)

[yu shan]

Matt, you are exactly right with the "set up" or entry attack, and the maneuver works, I have used it. I use it in the training of "wind at the back of the brain".

This form must be considered of high importance, because you see it in many Mantis styles.

[EarthDragon]

I have to agree with jake on this.
there are many techniques in all of our sets that are very diufficult and quite frankly unrealisitc to execute during any tpe of fight, confrontation or down right actual combat.

Typically these very moves are the ones least practiced.

I have found that many of the applications are better to be learned, practiced and mastered in the kwoon with a co-opportive and willing partners, than to attempt it on the street or even with an unwilling partner.

Yushan or kevin please compare the 4 direction changes I have posted above to your versions and let me know when or not when you guys turn that makes you start and end in differnt directions.

[Oso]

if I'm not mistaken the difference is in the number of roads? the version we are doing is only three roads versus 4 roads found in some versions. I believe kevin said that only newer versions had the 4th road and that the older versions have 3.

but, for crying out loud...ED, I'm sure your version has all the basic elements that define it as xiao fanche...Mr. Wu's version has enough similarity to ours that I can look at it and say 'that must be their version of xiao fanche...cool.' as I'm sure I'd say if I saw your version. it just doesn't matter that there be only ONE TRUE VERSION of any form. i though this kind of debate had reached it's rightful demise.



as far as that move working, you don't take it as literally shown in the form and take the intent and use it...it's just a jumping evasion to a low line attack with a plucking hand and cleave.

[Three Harmonies]

Good points by all. Just hard to see pulling that one off. But I have white mans disease and cannot run nor jump ;):D

[Oso]

well, you're taller than average so you may not have to...imho, the jumping part of it will be, as with everything, situational...and like a spinning kick of any type, you wouldn't just jump in the air in front of a completely aware opponent (although I've been guilty of that :o )

it's another tool...I agree, not one you may pull out all the time, and ED is right, one tends not to practice stuff that's harder or lower percentage but every once in a while a trick will work because of surprise value...but you better have your ABC's down in case it doesn't.

I'm definitely a skeptic of some moves in forms but I found xiao fanche to be rather free of extraneous stuff...and I can do it without looking like I'm trying to do ballet...badly

it's all smashy and shiat, man, you know I got to love it :D

[Three Harmonies]

Oso+Ballet = :eek::o:p:D

[Oso]

sheet, I look good in a tutu and can plie with the best of them*



besides...it's not how well the bear dances but that he dances at all.


































*'them' being 40 year old, 255 pound dudes

[Tainan Mantis]

Kevin
Do you honestly think that app can be pulled off??
Thanks
Jake :cool:

Hi Jake,
Do you mean the one I tried to describe?
Absolutely!
But I realize that it may not be very clear in my description.

It is a variation of Deng Pu or deng ta.

Just think if the move in 8 STep's 7 Hands.
It is very similar to that move, but the dif being that when you move in for the takedown the step jumps.

You have to have both hands secured in order to make it work.

Kevin

BTW, new article is now up at

http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/shaolinpobi.htm

[lapu_squared]

Wow, I'm amazed at the flurry of postings about this one technique in the form. Interesting discussion. I never would have guessed there would be so much interest in one particular technique when I posted the original message. Since that's obviously the case, I talked to my shifu, John Chang, about adding a little more detail that might be helpful. Here are some thoughts that will hopefully be of some interest:

In 8-Step, we look at forms as having more than just techniques or applications. Sometimes what looks like an application is actually meant to teach a certain body movement or coordination rather than to teach an application. For us, practice is very different from performance and application. Performance is for show. Practice is to develop the right body movements. Application is the way body movements can be combined to create the desired effect on the opponent. There are infinitely many applications, so those in the forms are only "examples." I know that most other styles focus on applications, but the way we practice in our little branch of 8-Step is more focused on movements.

Let me give some examples of this principle that apply to the technique everyone seems very interested in: When jumping, the way the back moves is a main focal point, because it trains a certain coordination that can give any upward block more power. Generally, you won't be jumping when you use that movement in an application, but the point of practice isn't the application, it's the movement of the back. Another movement being practiced in this "technique" is the relationship of the arms and hand to each other. There are general rules used at all times for how arms/hands relate to each other and to the torso. In this "technique," you're seeing a movement where both arms expand outward from the body (when blocking upward) and then contract back towards the body again (when blocking downward). If you ask someone off the street to do this movement, they will use certain muscles they aren't supposed to use. What comes naturally isn't good kung fu in this case. When doing this form, we would be practicing using the right muscles in the right way to coordinate the arm movements with the back movements. There are other examples, but you get the idea.

So, to summarize, whenever I perform this form, I'm not really thinking about the application as much as I am about various body coordinations and movements that I need to drill into my brain to make them become natural to me.

Shifu Chang also asked me to mention one of Grandmaster Wei's chief philosophies: GM Wei believed that each person should ultimately have their own interpretation of the forms. Each person has a different body type, different comfort levels with certain aspects of kung fu, different strengths, different weaknesses. All this means that each person ultimately needs to find the right interpretation of a form for themselves. Since forms are more about movements than about applications, if you truly understand the movements, the actual applications in a form may be slightly different based on personal interpretation. Of course, the key here is to have a good teacher who can help you make these adjustments and alterations intelligently rather than just haphazardly modifying the form in ways that don't really help in the long run.

Anyway, I hope some part of this will be useful to those of you who are as fascinated by this form as I am.

[EarthDragon]

Oso how did you get that bear to move????

to answer......Yes the form is almost exact. But as a wanna be perfectionist I strive to teach what I was taught and keep it true to its original conception.

I have been around a while and thiers nothing worse then 2 different versions from the same family of the same form, kata, or whatever and they result from years of tiny differences and interpretations............. just try to avoid that with what I teach.

Without the individual's flavor matching which is ok as we all know the movements we share should match as closely as possible. Thier are demonstrations I have been to that movements dont even look similar, and my teacher hated this and would teach us all the same way, and be addament about uniform and matching movements.

Thats all I was trying to do was find the differences.

Lapu's sq's post from john Chang was right on and said it much more eliquently than I could have put it however the watered down of filler version is not good to share with others.

[Oso]

it's an animated .gif

someone found it a long time ago and sent it to me

[EarthDragon]

Oso you can PM so not to clog the board but I would love to have my mantis avatar flap its wings, trap the hands or something. Is this something that you or your friend know how to do or you just found this Gif already animated? thanks bro.. PM me