Splashing Hands from Northern Shaolin temple or Southern?

[Keboh]

Hi all, can someone help me clear up a question?
I study Shaolin Splashing Hands, the system taught to the temple guards at the Shaolin Temple.
I'm just trying to find out if it was for the guards at the Northern temple or the Southern one?
I had heard it was Northern, but now I'm not so certain. For one thing, it has very little kicking, but lots of handwork. Is this a hallmark of Southern styles?
Also, I believe that the style was taught by Ark Y Wong in the USA, and he's associated with Southern Shaolin as far as I am aware. Much obliged.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I though that "splashing hands" was created by Tiny whatshisname, who taught it to McNeil (SP?)

[B-Rad]

Same here, I thought it was a new(ish) system.

[SouthernTiger]

As near as I can tell from talking with different people and the various forums that Splashing Hands has been discussed on the origins are probley along these lines:

1) Tiny learned an authentic Chinese martial art from the Retired general in Taiwan.

2)This curriculum only included the 30 drill "forms" and the four corners form.

3)Tiny went to LA and studied under Ark Wong where he incorporated the other forms (animal forms, small cross, etc.)

Now as to the style tracing its origins to Shaolin, this is somewhat unlikely. Not impossible but unlikely.

However as to your question, Keboh, the legend is that it indeed descends from the Northern temple. As to the "southern hands, northern feet", this is a broad generalization that has many exceptions.

-Blake

[Keboh]

1) Tiny learned an authentic Chinese martial art from the Retired general in Taiwan.

2)This curriculum only included the 30 drill "forms" and the four corners form.

3)Tiny went to LA and studied under Ark Wong where he incorporated the other forms (animal forms, small cross, etc.)


That's interesting, and it does kinda make sense. So you are saying that Splashing Hands is a mixture of the Taiwan General art + Ng Ga Kuen?

That would explain why the four corners form looks quite different from the other forms including the animal forms.

So in effect, is it fair to say Splashing Hands is a combination of Northern and Southern martial arts? Northern from Taiwan and Southern from Ark Wong.

[Jim Anestasi]

Tiny Lafiti took a few private lesson from G.M.Ark Y.Wong in the 60's.Grand Master Wong did not teach him Splashing hand!,His style was a mixture of Kenpo Karate & some other styles.This rumor was started years ago about G.M.Wong teaching him splashing hands,It never happened.There is more about this if you use the search forum.
Sifu Jim:D

[doug maverick]

lafiti thats the guy sifu james mcneil started learning from i think not sure but i think probably where the splashing hands thing comes from.

[SouthernTiger]

Tiny Lafiti took a few private lesson from G.M.Ark Y.Wong in the 60's.Grand Master Wong did not teach him Splashing hand!,His style was a mixture of Kenpo Karate & some other styles.This rumor was started years ago about G.M.Wong teaching him splashing hands,It never happened.There is more about this if you use the search forum.
Sifu Jim:D

Hello Sifu Jim,

No one is suggesting (on this thread anyway) that Tiny Lefiti learned Splashing Hands from Ark Wong. It seems quite apparent that he learned the animal sets and small cross and combo forms from him.

Tiny then added Splashing Hands movements to those forms that he learned from Ark Wong.

As to "His style was a mixture of Kenpo Karate & some other styles", I disagree. But, who trully knows?

-Blake

[Keboh]

Tiny Lafiti took a few private lesson from G.M.Ark Y.Wong in the 60's.Grand Master Wong did not teach him Splashing hand!,His style was a mixture of Kenpo Karate & some other styles.This rumor was started years ago about G.M.Wong teaching him splashing hands,It never happened.There is more about this if you use the search forum.
Sifu Jim:D

I will be very disappointed if this is true .... I have been under the impression I was doing a shaolin art. I certainly haven't been paying all this time to learn kenpo karate.

[chrislomas]

According to Seming Ma, Huame was helped improve what he had learned in Taiwan by Ark Yue Wong, who approved of his actions.

[SIFU RON]

I remember when Tiny showed up at Ark Wong's. Tiny was a likeable guy.

His M/A was very good, it was, he was what we would call today,a mixed Martial Arts. Ark Wong added to his knowledge. Ark Wong was happy to teach Tiny just as he was happy to teach anyone that had the right attitude.

The sad part about being dead is, you can't speak here (on the planet) to anyone.

People can say most anything, just as they do about Tiny, Ralph Shun, or Ark Wong, they aren't here anymore,

This is the main reason Sifu Jim and I have "come out of the woodwork" so people can actually talk with us. We aren't claiming to be the Grandmaster's or the chosen one's of Ark Wong's Kung Fu or the Inheritor's of the Style.

There is no one inheritor of Ark Wong's Kung Fu, . Jim Anestasi and I are the elders of Ark Wong's Kung Fu. There plenty of Ego's flying around though.

Do not be ashamed of anything you learn or have learned from Tiny. He knew a great deal of Ark Wong's Kung Fu and M/A Styles. A great Kung Fu person.

Be proud. ;)

Sifu Ron

[Danny Eckart]

I don't know anything about it but I did see that on Doug Wong's website his Bio kind hints at splashing hands as being Mok Ga.
http://www.whitelotuskungfu.com/about-masterwong.html

Just thought I'd throw that in for you guys.

Danny

[chrislomas]

Sifu Ron and Sifu Jim, I have been following the other thread, I love hearing about Ark Yue Wong, who is greatly respected by us Splashing Hands players. It is great to hear from his early students. The animal forms of the Splashing Hands style are clearly Ng Ga Kuen forms altered to the Splashing Hands 'alphabet'.

You may be interested to know on Sifu Lefiti's death Sifu McNeil (my teacher) then continued his study with Ralph Shun (before going into Hsing I etc.), I have learnt alot comparing both ways of doing the forms.

Best Chris

[SIFU RON]

Thank you Chris,

nicely put. Yes I am aware of James, Tiny , and Ralph , they were very close. They shared good Kung Fu together. Ralph also taught them weapons. All of them and yourself have been touched by Ark Wong's Kung Fu in one way or another.

Thats what Jim and I are looking for. If you have visited us on our forum, next, time, talk to us, and register if you like.

Http://wahquekungfu.proboards100.com/index,cgi

By chance , do you remember one of Ralph Shun's students by the name of Rick Zanotti ?

Best to you,

Sifu Ron and Sifu Jim

[SIFU RON]

I don't know anything about it but I did see that on Doug Wong's website his Bio kind hints at splashing hands as being Mok Ga.
http://www.whitelotuskungfu.com/about-masterwong.html

Just thought I'd throw that in for you guys.

Danny

Douglas knows a great deal about Ark Wong, fact is he knows most everyone.
I run into him every once in a while. Douglas, Carrie, and his children do a remarkable job of teaching M/A, helping people, and share with everone.

[SIFU RON]

I don't know anything about it but I did see that on Doug Wong's website his Bio kind hints at splashing hands as being Mok Ga.
http://www.whitelotuskungfu.com/about-masterwong.html

Just thought I'd throw that in for you guys.

Danny

Correct, Mote-Ga is the claim. However as big as Tiny was, don't be surprised if he learned some Hung-Ga too. Sifu loved to teach Hung-Ga to guys his size, just ask Sifu Jim.

And thank you.

Sifu Ron

[Keboh]

That's interesting to hear about Hung Gar. I didn't know that Grandmaster Wong also taught Hung Gar.

Was it incorporated part of his Ng Ga Kuen style? Or was it taught separately, as a complete style in its own right?

Just for my own clarification, are we talking about the same Hung Gar style that is also sometimes called Hung Kuen? The one with the Character-I-Tiger-Taming form and the Iron Wire form?

[Wildwoo]

I do not mean any disrespect and James M. is a nice guy but Splashing hands has nothing related to Shaolin. Modified Kenpo with no jing.

^-^
Woo

[chrislomas]

Thank you Sifu Ron, I will chat just didn't want to impose:)

Wildwoo; all I can say is I have learnt a good range of Kung Fu styles from a good few teachers and the splashing hands method stands up very very well, make of that what you want.

[SIFU RON]

That's interesting to hear about Hung Gar. I didn't know that Grandmaster Wong also taught Hung Gar.

Was it incorporated part of his Ng Ga Kuen style? Or was it taught separately, as a complete style in its own right?

Just for my own clarification, are we talking about the same Hung Gar style that is also sometimes called Hung Kuen? The one with the Character-I-Tiger-Taming form and the Iron Wire form?


GM Wong taught everthing.

As for Na Ga Kuen , this is Seming Ma's Association. His system. It is of course from his Grandfather Ark Wong and is very good. However it is not then same system I teach. My system is identified as Wah Que Kung Fu Branch 109.

Re: I-Tiger-Taming form and Iron Wire Form, is it not all Kung Fu ?

[SIFU RON]

Thank you Sifu Ron, I will chat just didn't want to impose:)

Wildwoo; all I can say is I have learnt a good range of Kung Fu styles from a good few teachers and the splashing hands method stands up very very well, make of that what you want.


Thank you, talking is good. Please do and enjoy yourself.

Sifu Jim and Sifu Ron

[SIFU RON]

Good point Wildwoo,

I really don't recall anyone saying Splashing Hands was Shoalin or started by Ark Wong.

The best of source of information is James McNiel, why not invite him here or just ask him. I am quite sure he will answer any questions anyone has. There has been several articles about it over the years in the M/A magazines.

People that are alive can be talked to, , why not simply do it.

No disrepect taken.

Sifu Ron

[Keboh]

GM Wong taught everthing.


Hi sifu Ron,
No disrespect intended ... and I am sure it's my misunderstanding ... but how can one man teach everything? How can one man even know everything?
Like I said, I am sure I am misunderstanding, but would you clarify?



Re: I-Tiger-Taming form and Iron Wire Form, is it not all Kung Fu ?

Once again, I'm not really sure I understand what you mean by this.

Thanks for your posts so far.

[SIFU RON]

It is simple......

Regardless of all the names of all these styles of Kung Fu, is anything new ?

What's different ?

[doug maverick]

Splashing Hands, developed at the Shaolin Temple in the late 1700's, is a close in fighting system of kung-fu. It was taught to those monks who were in charge of guarding the temple gates. Splashing Hands, named for the way the hands move as if one is shaking water from them, is valued for its explosive, high-speed hand and footwork and its simultaneous offensive and defensive techniques. Historically, only a relatively small number of students learned this system. Even after Splashing Hands was introduced to fighters not associated with the Shaolin Temple, it never became a widely-practiced art. Those who knew the effectiveness of the system were reluctant to share their knowledge with others. Because of this secrecy, it is unknown whether or not Splashing Hands is still practiced today on the Chinese mainland. We do know the style was brought to Taiwan in the late 1940's and early 1950's, where a former nationalist army general taught a selected few students. (http://www.littlenineheaven.com/splash.html)

not saying its true or untrue honestly i don't know. i do know mcneil is a very good and sound teacher thats all i know.

[SIFU RON]

Worded well. James is an excellant teacher and well diverisifed in M/A.

Why not direct your questions directly to him ?

I knew Tiny. You need to remember , back in those days, Ark Wong was the " go to guy" for M/A. The majority of his students were Black Belts, from other styles. They came from everywhere and for good reason.

Best to U

Sifu Ron

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is simple......

Regardless of all the names of all these styles of Kung Fu, is anything new ?

What's different ?

Nothing, the more things change the more they stay the same.

[SouthernTiger]

Nothing, the more things change the more they stay the same.

Or as King Solomon wrote: "There is nothing new under the sun..."

Words of wisdom. Everything has been done before.

-Blake

[Keboh]

It is simple......

Regardless of all the names of all these styles of Kung Fu, is anything new ?

What's different ?



Nothing, the more things change the more they stay the same.

Not sure I really understand ...

Can you extend this further and say that kung fu, karate, muay thai and Brazillian jujitsu are ultimately all the same?

[SIFU RON]

Not sure I really understand ...

Can you extend this further and say that kung fu, karate, muay thai and Brazillian jujitsu are ultimately all the same?


Sure, not 100% the same, but you will find it somewhere in the realm of things.

[tattooedmonk]

Sure, not 100% the same, but you will find it somewhere in the realm of things.It is all in how you are taught , train and practice. If you train like a Mc Dojo or Mc Kwoon then you end up like them . If you train like MMA guys do you will end up like them . Seems pretty simple to me.

[SIFU RON]

It is all in how you are taught , train and practice. If you train like a Mc Dojo or Mc Kwoon then you end up like them . If you train like MMA guys do you will end up like them . Seems pretty simple to me.


RIGHT ON THE MONEY :)

[Jim Anestasi]

In 1958 when I met G.M.Ark Y.Wong,I asked him what style he taught,he said Choy,Li,Mok,Fut,HungGar in that order . He had his own style of Hung Ga,but it varies little from the more well known styles.
It is said to learn the new ways one must study the old ways.Makes sense to me.

Sifu Jim:)

[kal]

Here's a pretty interesting documentary I found on Tongbeiquan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NSSzL9PK9M

What seems very intriguing is how similar some of their training looks to Splashing Hands. Especially in the way that they slap their own bodies. And also, I noticed that a lot of their strikes are done with open hands and relaxed fingers.

Many people seem to believe that the self-slapping in Splashing Hands comes from Kempo ... but now after seeing this video I'm not so sure about that.

At 2:10 and 3:35 there are some drills where the Tongbei people do a strike while at the same time slapping the shoulder with the other hand.

And at 4:10, they are slapping the sides of the abdomen while doing striking.

Is this kind of self-slapping very common in Chinese martial arts?

Could it be that Splashing Hands was some kind of Tongbeiquan (or derivative)?

[Royal Dragon]

During the Sung dynasty, Shaolin martial arts were pickled in Tong Bei, or Tong Bei derived styles, so *If* the story of Splashing hands is true, then it is very likely the remnants of some sort of Tong bei system.

Also,I have heard from Indonesian Kuntao players that thier style is from the really Old Shaolin (which i believe due to many similarities to my Tai tzu).

Splashing hands is very similar too certain types of Kuntao.

Since splashing Hands and Kuntao are not and were not connected to each other in the past, yet they share similar historical stories, and share certian similar movements, techniques and have other similarities, it stands to reason that the legend is true, and that the method is actually from Shaolin Temple. One branch went to Indonesia, and another to Taiwan.

My guess is it is part of a lost Tong Bei line that passed through Shaolin.

since I feel KunTao is of a pre Ming derivation, then Splashing Hands would be as well, because there is not even a remote modern connection to them...therefore the connection has to be in the ancient and distant past.

As for kempo, it's probably BUILT on Splashing hands, not the other way around.

[Royal Dragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eocgGW8xmiE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bd2q_GbQW0&feature=related

Also,like Hong Quan, there are more than one style named Tong Bei. They are not necessarily related.