so my arm is refusing to heal :/

[golden arhat]

as some of you may know
about 3 months ago i was wrestling
got thrown over phills back and dislocated my elbow

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=85106086&albumID=121996&imageID=9732145

so yeah i left of everything did what the doctors told me to do
went and saw the orthopaedist he said yeah
just leave it and stretch it gently every now and a gain

next tiem i saw a different doctor
he didnt touch my arm or anything he just fobbed me off looking at it and said
yeah yeah just carry on
even though i protested that my arm wasnt moving any further regardless of how much i stretched it
never the less i went home and carried on

a couple of weeks later i went back
saw the or iginal doctor
got an x ray
got refferred for physio

went to physio

i was told "odds are we can stretch it somewhat but u will NEVER get full mobility back" i was like
:/
so yeah she stretched it hard and it went a bit further niot much

she gave me an an excercise to do
i heat the joint up for 15 minutes

get it as far as i can then ice it for 15 minutes in that position but that hasnt got it any further it just leaves me stiffer :mad:

so ive gone back to training i can hook people and wrestle to some extent (but i'm taking it very light)

anyway

what are ur thoughts on all of this ?

[Egg fu young]

I have the same thing (hyperextension from boxing) It hurt constantly for the first 5 years. Now the pain is only on extension but man the noises it makes are hideous. Been to the Doctor and my only option is surgery. Really changed my life because I had to train differently. Any arm movement past parallel cant be done. On a positive note. It's not the worst injury I have:)

[golden arhat]

I have the same thing (hyperextension from boxing) It hurt constantly for the first 5 years. Now the pain is only on extension but man the noises it makes are hideous. Been to the Doctor and my only option is surgery. Really changed my life because I had to train differently. Any arm movement past parallel cant be done. On a positive note. It's not the worst injury I have:)

u can get surgery ?

as in forcing it to straighten through the use of sharp stuff ?

hmmm quick fix ....interesting :D cheers a bunch

[street_fighter]

it hapens to the best of us. if your training hard, its gonna happen, learn how to deal with them, be smart. I just got over a shoulder dislocation, the joint is never quite the same. Thats MA baby.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Can you do a pull up?

How about a pushup?

Can you take a dumbbell and extend your arm strait out and hold it?

If so, do one pull up, and then as you come back down, hold it at the halfway mark as long as you can. Build up to 3 minutes.

Do 10 circle pushups, hold at the top as long as you can, and then again at the bottom, and again half way. Do each as long as you can untill you can do each one 3 minutes.

Hold the dumbel out to your sides as long as you can, and then to the front. Hold the dumbel so the palms would be down if they were open. Build up untill you can hold each for 3 minutes.

NOW do all of your stretching.

Also, if you can go to a Chinese herbalist who specializes in Kung Fu formulas and get a good hit wine that is blended for the joints. Take it 1-2 hours before you train.

Do the above routine 4 times a week AFTER a good warm up. Make sure the warmup has extra arm circles and other light arm exercises in it so it's tuned to the practice.

The important thing here is t take it slow, and increase the time you hold slowly, and incrementally. Start with 30 second holds. If thta is not enough of a struggle, try 60 seconds. That should be plenty of a challenge at first.


When you are done, THEN do your phisio therapy exercises and stretches.

In 3 months you should be better. When you can hold each exercise for 3 minutes, you will be better, and stronger than before the injury.

Make sure you avoid impact (Hitting bags etc), and do not do anything that would stress the joint, like wrestle and get arm bared.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You may benefit from some bicep curls, preferably hammer curls and those curls where you twist upward to a palm up position since they both work some of the muscles in the bicep and forearm that is involved in bringing the arm upward. You should consider strengthening the entire arm.

Reply]
Agreed. I would like to add that doing them ridiculously slowly would be very beneficial as well. Think Tai Chi meets weight training.

[Dale Dugas]

Get yourself to an experienced dit da acupuncturist.

They will be able to help you out.

You should be able to find one in Manchesters Chinatown or elsewhere

here is a link to try out:

http://www.herbsacupuncture.co.uk/index.html

[kwaichang]

If the X rays are negative for fracture or bone chip, then you should be able to have full extension. Have you had an MRI to show a ligament tear often the ligament at the head of the radius is torn. Also scar tissue forms with injuries such as this a long duration LOW intensity stretch will help if everything else is negative IE MRI etc PM me I think I can help. KC

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Good point, you should find out "Why" you are having the problem first before you try to fix it.

[The Willow Sword]

SInce he is a PT and i am an LMT. From a Massage therapists standpoint, to deal with the scarring and the inflexability of your arm, a technique known as "Cross fiber friction" is essential here in order to realign the ligament and tendons. When scar tissue forms it does so in a "X" pattern and therefore shortens the ligament or tendon. With cross fiber friction work(which can be uncomfortable) you can facilitate change in the ligaments and tendons and allow them to realign themselves so that flexability can be restored. I wouldnt recommend lifting weights at this time(heavy weights) VERY light weights can be used and used SLOWLY.

So in essence, find yourself a decent MT who can address your needs in your arm.

Peace,TWS

[bodhitree]

rather than offering you another uninformed opinion i would suggest you start the thread with the title attn/ cjurakpt, or pm him, as he is the one who would actually know something about rehabilitating an injury

[The Willow Sword]

yeah he would be the only one here who would know:rolleyes:

[bodhitree]

yeah he would be the only one here who would know:rolleyes:

well, I'd rather get a professionals opinion, for all these guys know slow bicep curls might make the problem much worse

[kwaichang]

TWS and I are professionals. But ask who you please just trying to help. KC:)

[golden arhat]

i'm going to phone my physio tomorrow and ask for another apointment i think

my friend who suffered the same injury and demanded alot of physio and they just gave it to him


are there different types of jow for ligaments as opposed to bruises

early on i used jow to treat the swelling and that worked to an extent


i'l talk to cjukarupt or however u spell it thanx guys

any more thoughts would be readily appreciated :)

[couch]

i'm going to phone my physio tomorrow and ask for another apointment i think

my friend who suffered the same injury and demanded alot of physio and they just gave it to him


are there different types of jow for ligaments as opposed to bruises

early on i used jow to treat the swelling and that worked to an extent


i'l talk to cjukarupt or however u spell it thanx guys

any more thoughts would be readily appreciated :)

No offense to any physio's, but Golden Arhat, they are a catch-bag of tricks. They're going to throw anything the can at you to try and fix you. Jack of all trades, master of none.

I am a Registered Acupuncturist and Chinese Medicine Practitioner. I believe that if you went to a good Chiropractor, Acupuncturist, or Massage Therapist you will find what you're looking for.

My very opinionated opinion,
Kenton "The opinionator" Sefcik, R.Ac, Dip.Ac, Dip.TCM

[golden arhat]

No offense to any physio's, but Golden Arhat, they are a catch-bag of tricks. They're going to throw anything the can at you to try and fix you. Jack of all trades, master of none.

I am a Registered Acupuncturist and Chinese Medicine Practitioner. I believe that if you went to a good Chiropractor, Acupuncturist, or Massage Therapist you will find what you're looking for.

My very opinionated opinion,
Kenton Sefcik, R.Ac, Dip.Ac, Dip.TCM

yeah dude but accupuncture COSTS

physio here is free on the national health service

however my training buddy jonny's grandpa is a hung gar master and herbalist so i'l seek remedies from him aswell as i may get them for free

i really cant afford to spend the amount i'd need to spend considering i am 16 years old

but thankyou

[couch]

yeah dude but accupuncture COSTS

physio here is free on the national health service

however my training buddy jonny's grandpa is a hung gar master and herbalist so i'l seek remedies from him aswell as i may get them for free

i really cant afford to spend the amount i'd need to spend considering i am 16 years old

but thankyou

Although I understand your situation...

It IS about priorities. People in my clinic, all the time, have to make decisions as to where they spend their money. Most of them spend it on their health...and they get better.

Some of them don't.

If you want it, you will find a way and the universe will supply the means.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Find out what is WRONG first!!!

[cjurakpt]

man, I really purposefully avoided commenting on this thread, but since I was paged repeatedly...

first off, let me bore you yet again with the same two things that I always say when asked for specific advice:

a) neither I nor anyone else here can give you an accurate opinion on what's wrong with you and what you should do without examining you directly; any specific "suggestions" that anyone might give you about what to do to treat yourself should be ignored pretty much across the board, since they are not based on actually seeing what is going on, and so might even be detrimental; also, someone might tell you to do something with one thing in mind, but you might misunderstand and do something else, etc.; (I might add that while I myself have described certain treatment approaches now and again, they are very general, and always with the caveat that they may not apply in specific cases)
b) if you do any kind of MA you need to go out and find a good osteo / chiro / physio / TCM guy and have them assess you and work with them a bit so that they know how you are before you get an injury; like that, when you do get injured you aren't playing dice with whoever happens to come along and give you a potentially stupid opinion and / or crappy treatment when you can least afford it; this is really the most intelligent way to approach training and self-maintenance

so GA, I really don't know what's going on with you - I have some ideas, but without putting my hands on you, it would be both impossible and irresponsible to tell you anything specific; if $$$ is an issue, my suggestion would be to try and find a local osteopathic school and go to their faculty-supervised student clinic, their approach might be more useful than what you get at your typical physio clinic and it's typically much cheaper than seeing a full DO; the same could apply to a TCM school, or possibly an MT school (last choice on my list in general)

anyway, nothing personal GA, but my days of giving "advice", solicited or otherwise, to people with specific issues on this forum are over; mainly because there is really nothing that I have to say beyond the above, and second because for some bizzare reason, some people seem to think I have this "know it all" attitude; which is strange since, again, I am the first to say that I really don't know what's going on, whereas other "professionals" here are giving you specific advice on what to do, and with all due respect I think that for a licensed healthcare practitioner to offer any kind of specific advice in this sort of venue is totally innapropriate; it's also highly unethical IMHO, because what if you do try what they suggest and mess yourself up more? well, they are technically responsible, but you have no recourse because you don't know who they are, so too bad for you (of course, on the other hand you have some people who are no even trained in healthcare giving you full protocols and even specific prognosis - but they are not trained and so aren't expected to know any better)

anyway, good luck

[cjurakpt]

No offense to any physio's, but Golden Arhat, they are a catch-bag of tricks. They're going to throw anything the can at you to try and fix you. Jack of all trades, master of none.

I am a Registered Acupuncturist and Chinese Medicine Practitioner. I believe that if you went to a good Chiropractor, Acupuncturist, or Massage Therapist you will find what you're looking for.

My very opinionated opinion,
Kenton Sefcik, R.Ac, Dip.Ac, Dip.TCM

I'm thinking that either you are a new grad, or if not, then just a jerk, because as a licensed healthcare practitioner, you should really be much more circumspect, respectful and responsible about what you state, especially when you sign your name to it with all your nice letters lined up in a row after it; quite frankly, it's embarrassing to read what you write because it just shows such a lack of knowledge that I really almost don't know what to say to you (and spare me the disclaimer - saying "no offense" as a preamble and then doing just that...give me a break); now, I will be the first to agree that there are many PT's essentially hacking their way through patients (like in any profession - chiros, LMT, TCM - you will find sub-standard clinicians in ALL of these fields), but to make a blanket statement about all PT's is just BS, not to mention very poor form; in reality, there are many PT's out there treating from systematic, rigorous methodological standpoints, and getting excellent results: certainly not "jack of all trades" - when was the last time that you spoke to a master clinician in the area of cardio-pulminary PT? or in pediatric in-patient rehab? or an Aussie physio with a GDMT? I'd go on, but quite frankly it's almost not worth it - your myoptic perspective is so absurd that the odds of you waking up are pretty much non-existant

so you can take you "opinionated opinion" and stuff it;

[The Willow Sword]

Let me just state that any "ADVICE" or "Suggestions" that any of us give based on our training, schooling, experience etc. is simply just THAT, Advice and suggestions. They are not to be taken as a true gospel to treat the injury that GA has sustained. cjurakpt wants to passively insult those of us who have given advice and suggestions to you when i think that Yourself,Golden Arhat, and most of us have enough common sense to not just go out and rush into the advice given,HOWEVER, Knowing KwaiChang for a long time and knowing his background as a PT which goes far beyond my experience as a LMT i would say that ANY advice or suggestions he gives would be pretty good,considering that he has not seen GA's injury first hand. we HAVE seen the xray of the dislocated Elbow and from that we can summize that there is going to be damage sustained to ligaments and tendons in that area. Sure we are not going to know what specifically is going on in that region but GA has given is a pretty good idea of what is going on.
I dont feel that any of what has been suggested to GA is a contraindication to the injury(with the exception of lifting weights ie : bicep curls). I stand behind my cross fiber friction suggestion,however, i should be more specific in stating in general that techniques such as that should be avoided until there is a sufficient amount of healing that has taken place.

So with that in mind GA i would say to take what certain individuals here say as food for thought(including KC and myself) and if someone who has his nose in anothers a$$ who puts all others here above the rest in terms of professional advice, along with he who has the nose inserted in his a$$ and the ego blatently displayed in his last two posts, i would filter past all of that pi$$ing and moaning and use your own common sense and go forth accordingly.

Peace,TWS

[kwaichang]

Wow how scary TWS and I agree on something. Now I guess He// will freeze over. haha. Anyway I feel diagnostics are in order if possible. I will say this however, I have worked with PT's who dont know their a$$ from a hole in the ground. I have worked with great PT's as well. Advice is just that. Also those who typically treat by protocol often have the slowest outcomes and not always the best ones. WHY ? because everyone cannot be treated the same because they arent the same. Science is good as a stepping stone to Intuitive treatment and experience. My outcome rate is about 98% positive and I have treated many athletes professional and otherwise Orthopedic. and many are more concerned about their license than the well being and health of the patient . I am not directing this toward any individual just the sytem IE Western Medicine as a whole. KC

[cjurakpt]

Let me just state that any "ADVICE" or "Suggestions" that any of us give based on our training, schooling, experience etc. is simply just THAT, Advice and suggestions. They are not to be taken as a true gospel to treat the injury that GA has sustained.
when you state that "Cross fiber friction is essential here in order to realign the ligament and tendons", that is not a suggestion - you are basically telling him that this is exactly what he needs; a suggetion would be something like "in many casses such as this that I have treated, I have found cross-fiber massage to be one of the most efficient ways of improving active and passive range of motion, so it may be something of use to you if determined appropriate on examination";


cjurakpt wants to passively insult those of us who have given advice and suggestions to you
no, I don't want to insult you - I want to point out that I think it is innapropriate to state things the way you state it; that's not an insult, it's a criticism and there is a big difference; unfortunatley you can't seem to tell the difference


when i think that Yourself,Golden Arhat, and most of us have enough common sense to not just go out and rush into the advice given
how do you know that? aside from what the guy posts on KFMF, you know nothing at all about him, or his ability to make any sort of informed decision; I mean, in case you haven't noticed, he's in a bit of a bind, and starting to sound a bit dejected about his prospects at this point, meaning that he's a bit vulnerable and therefore may be inclined to go try something someone suggests he do without thinking through it to thoroughly (assuming he even has the ability to make informed decisions about this sort of thing); bottom line, you can't assume anything about how someone will take what you say;


HOWEVER, Knowing KwaiChang for a long time and knowing his background as a PT which goes far beyond my experience as a LMT i would say that ANY advice or suggestions he gives would be pretty good,considering that he has not seen GA's injury first hand.
this is illogical; while you can certainly say KC is skilled and has a great deal of knowledge, and I have no reason to contradict that, he's not psychic, so again, unless he has examined GA directly, his ability to offer appropriate suggestions to his specific situation is necessarilly limited; thus, I find it innapropriate that he would be willing to try to treat the guy via PM (especially a 16 y/o kid who, despite appearing to have above average intelligence, is still a minor): I mean, what if he tells GA to try something, GA does it and gets worse? was it because what KC told him to do was innappropriate? or did GA do it in a way that KC would have corrected if he saw him doing it? you can't know, and thus can't guarantee GA's safety


we HAVE seen the xray of the dislocated Elbow and from that we can summize that there is going to be damage sustained to ligaments and tendons in that area.
since you can't see ligs or tend on radiograph, what can you say about the degree of injury? you don't know if there was straining or tearing of the ligaments, and you don't know what the tissues feel like, which will have a significant impact on what you do; also, how old is the film? more than a month and its relevance is fading fast...


Sure we are not going to know what specifically is going on in that region
bingo! that should be the beginning and the end of the conversation


but GA has given is a pretty good idea of what is going on.
LOL, no he hasn't; there is a great deal of info he has not supplied, the type of info that during a good history you would know to ask about and which cwould be pretty important in terms of how you treat it


I dont feel that any of what has been suggested to GA is a contraindication to the injury(with the exception of lifting weights ie : bicep curls).
you have no way of knowing that for certain


I stand behind my cross fiber friction suggestion,however, i should be more specific in stating in general that techniques such as that should be avoided until there is a sufficient amount of healing that has taken place.
you did not sugggest cross fiber, you told him it was essential - there's a big difference; furthermore, in my opinion it is not essential, it's just one way of handling things;


So with that in mind GA i would say to take what certain individuals here say as food for thought(including KC and myself) and if someone who has his nose in anothers a$$ who puts all others here above the rest in terms of professional advice, along with he who has the nose inserted in his a$$ and the ego blatently displayed in his last two posts, i would filter past all of that pi$$ing and moaning and use your own common sense and go forth accordingly.
you might want to re-read that - it makes absolutely no sense, aside from the fact that you think I am being egotistical; the funny thing is, it's actually the opposite: if I were being egotistical, I would say something like "I know what's going on with you GA, here's exactly what you should do to fix it, trust me, it will work"; in fact, I am putting my own personal opinion aside because I realize that, regardless of how much I may know, it's just not appropriate to display it, because it may actually cause more harm than good; if you can't step outside of your own ego for a moment and realize that, then that's your issue, not mine; as for the second post I made, I would suggest you read the original post, except take out the word "PT" and insert "LMT", and see how you feel about the validity of his perspective...

[cjurakpt]

Wow how scary TWS and I agree on something. Now I guess He// will freeze over. haha. Anyway I feel diagnostics are in order if possible.
I think they are critical - I don't et the sense that anyone involved with GA's case has a good handle on what is actually going on...


I will say this however, I have worked with PT's who dont know their a$$ from a hole in the ground. I have worked with great PT's as well.
in general, I actually agree with you: in regards to out-patient ortho specifically , I wouldn't let most of the PT's out there put a finger on me - you know, the ol' shake and bake routine, right? at the same time, there are people like Gregg & Vicki Johnson who are amazing and are raising the bar for our entire profession;


Advice is just that.
well that's fine and all, but I just don't think it's appropriate to give it out in this format because you can't be certain it's the right advice, you have no idea how it will be taken one way or the other and have no ability to damage control it if it's taken incorrectly


Also those who typically treat by protocol often have the slowest outcomes and not always the best ones. WHY ? because everyone cannot be treated the same because they arent the same. Science is good as a stepping stone to Intuitive treatment and experience.
protocols are ok, they give newbs a leg to stand on, but yes, ultimately it's the client, not the technique that is important, and unfortunately a lot of the drive in PT these days is to go totally EBM and get all algorhytmic with every patient, when the truth is for lots of people it's not necessary; on the flip side, treating by intution alon, which a lot of the CST folks like to do, is a dangerous and innappropriate approach; as you say, you need to balance both the head and the heart, and always question what you are doing as if you were being grilled by a panel of experts for your PhD - that is what keeps you honest about what is really going on with our treats


My outcome rate is about 98% positive and I have treated many athletes professional and otherwise Orthopedic.
that's a pretty strong statement: how do you arrive at that number? what is your criteria for "positive"? symptom reduction / elimination? long-term lack of recidivism? just asking because it gets tricky actually qualifying what "positive" entails (for example, I've had patients who I thought I didn't get to where I wanted, but they were very satisfied with the results)


and many are more concerned about their license than the well being and health of the patient . I am not directing this toward any individual just the sytem IE Western Medicine as a whole. KC
sad but true - it's a complex situation, but personally I look at my license as the patient's safety net - if I screw up, they have recourse, simple as that

BTW, you never asked me your question...

[kwaichang]

PT I didnt want to bother you with it, you know doctor dont treat thyself ends up being Bilat IlioPsoas and Rectus Femoris Tendinitis, Anti Inflammatoriies TID and old Thomas stretch seems to be helping but Ice and Rest as well , Scours negative thank God and no Crepitus. I am extremely Flexible and had an injury 2.5 years ago and as a result the above but any suggestions are helpful of course not recommendations you can PM me i am also doing Corley and Kelsey tendon conditioning etc. Thanks for asking KC

[kwaichang]

Pt happy, Dr happy , Goals reached , return to former state or better , in a nut shell. Post surgical ROM reached to prior function MMT all 5/5 and pain 3 or less at time of discharge per Mickoskies pain scale may have spelled that wrong, am Baby sitting 2 right now.3 and 1 year olds KC

[cjurakpt]

PT I didnt want to bother you with it, you know doctor dont treat thyself ends up being Bilat IlioPsoas and Rectus Femoris Tendinitis, Anti Inflammatoriies TID and old Thomas stretch seems to be helping but Ice and Rest as well , Scours negative thank God and no Crepitus. I am extremely Flexible and had an injury 2.5 years ago and as a result the above but any suggestions are helpful of course not recommendations you can PM me i am also doing Corley and Kelsey tendon conditioning etc. Thanks for asking KC

well first off, I'm not concerned about the appropriateness/ethics giving you recommendations/suggestions/advice/whatever, for the obvious reason - we can have a "technical" discussion without you freaking out or doing something untowards; the obvious question is, in adsence of recent direct trauma, what is the cause of your flair-up?; as it's bilateral, it suggests either something midline or something compensatory or both, given that the injury is old (what was the injury BTW? and what surgery did you have?); or, given that it's bilateral and multi-jointed, and given the location, it may also be some sort of generalized inflammatory response, maybe related to abdomino pelvic congestion that's "spilled over"? again, I am just throwing out conjectures, I can't say for sure; based on what you say was successful, it sounds like you could use a good spring cleaning / tune up (God, who doesn't?); if it was me, I would go after it manually first, then ther ex it later; personally, the first thing I would do is get pelvic floor/coccyx cleared, because in my personal experience what you describe can be due to a lot of residual compensatory stresses that sit in the PF musculature when the lumbopelvic complex readjusts itself; once that's ok, I'd make sure that I had full mobility of each hip joint without spill-over into lumbar spine (especially the obdurators, make sure those are happy); I'd also check for sacral lesions, specifically unilateral extensions and backwards torsions, although they may not be as relevant; if you want to really "dig", you could find someone who does good visceral work and have them give you a series of treats, because all the abdominal-pelvic viscera that sits on top of psoas can become very congested (it may not be in your case - depends a lot on inherent morphology - ectomorphic tends to be less so than meso or endo, constitutional type - e.g. - prone to congestion/inflammation, activity level, diet, emotional state, etc.); finally, if your surgery was local, maybe some mobilization on the scar might be helpful, even if it's been a while - sometimes those pesky scars can have long reaching effects; anyway, just some thoughts, for what it's worth;

[The Willow Sword]

WOW,cjurakpt sure does have a very FULL bladder;).

Peace,TWS

[monji112000]

as some of you may know
about 3 months ago i was wrestling
got thrown over phills back and dislocated my elbow

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=85106086&albumID=121996&imageID=9732145

so yeah i left of everything did what the doctors told me to do
went and saw the orthopaedist he said yeah
just leave it and stretch it gently every now and a gain

next tiem i saw a different doctor
he didnt touch my arm or anything he just fobbed me off looking at it and said
yeah yeah just carry on
even though i protested that my arm wasnt moving any further regardless of how much i stretched it
never the less i went home and carried on

a couple of weeks later i went back
saw the or iginal doctor
got an x ray
got refferred for physio

went to physio

i was told "odds are we can stretch it somewhat but u will NEVER get full mobility back" i was like
:/
so yeah she stretched it hard and it went a bit further niot much

she gave me an an excercise to do
i heat the joint up for 15 minutes

get it as far as i can then ice it for 15 minutes in that position but that hasnt got it any further it just leaves me stiffer :mad:

so ive gone back to training i can hook people and wrestle to some extent (but i'm taking it very light)

anyway

what are ur thoughts on all of this ?

suck it up or go to a real doctor. If the first doctor doesn't give you a good answer go to a better one.

[kwaichang]

No Sacral torsions no Coxygeal problems MMT 5/5 all movements except Hip Flexion and it is Painful over ant joint and SLR as well no Peripheralization of LE or LB , Had Deep Tissue work Bilat IT Band and Lumbo Sacral area all cleared. Old SI joint problem on Left with Anter Innom Rotation and LR/L sacral Torsion all corrected No pain with anything but HIp Flexion and SLR Hip flexion Painful arc at approx 90 Deg to 110 and then nothing no hip Patho. What ya think ???? it is 90 % better at 90-95% of 100. KC

[Mano Mano]

suck it up or go to a real doctor. If the first doctor doesn't give you a good answer go to a better one. Unfortunately for golden arhat & the majority of us in the UK we are treated by the National Heath Service (the minority being people with lots of money & pay privately for health care) so If you want to switch Dr’s you have to register with a new practice & give reasons why you left your old Dr’s practice also if the new practice thinks your treatment may be too expensive the chances of being accepted as a new patient are not that good.

[cjurakpt]

WOW,cjurakpt sure does have a very FULL bladder;).

Peace,TWS

well you didn't come by today for your daily golden shower, so what do you expect...

[cjurakpt]

No Sacral torsions no Coxygeal problems MMT 5/5 all movements except Hip Flexion and it is Painful over ant joint and SLR as well no Peripheralization of LE or LB , Had Deep Tissue work Bilat IT Band and Lumbo Sacral area all cleared. Old SI joint problem on Left with Anter Innom Rotation and LR/L sacral Torsion all corrected No pain with anything but HIp Flexion and SLR Hip flexion Painful arc at approx 90 Deg to 110 and then nothing no hip Patho. What ya think ???? it is 90 % better at 90-95% of 100. KC

ok, so you have pain (what type?) in the anterior hip in a 20? arc of hip flexion (although I am unclear if you mean passive and / or active / and or resisted active,and also in what position - standing or supine?) with both the knee bent and straight bilaterally, with no pelvic, hip or lumbar spine pathology evident - interesting; well, it's hard to say, I can see why you are a bit stumped - ok, it's probably not HS, since the SLR would differentiate that; you said the scour was neg., but maybe you have some localised inguinal crease congestion that barks when you flex up? again, because it's symmetrical, I'm thinking something fluid based versus hard structural; personally, I'd go looking and see if you had any of those lateral or inferio-lateral pubic bone counterstrain points - maybe even try that old MET shotgun manuever for "relocating" pubes, it might help "pump" some of the lymphatics out of there (if that is in fact the case); that aside, I'd have to actually see you to make any further conjectures at this point;

[kwaichang]

Positive AROM in standing and supine with SLR also resisted, PROM negative unilateral stance neg all kicks except straight leg front kick are negative. Did the Pube thing no difficulty no "pop" pain is sharp and quick shallow at 90 deg flexion Hip flexion active with knee flexed is negative now 90 % time. no pain with palpation of the psoas muscle belly or rectus femoris Mm no significant popping or clicking and if it does it is pain free. Knee flexion to full ROM SKtC no compression pain. I still feel it is some tendinitis caused by compensating from the injury BTW I did not have Sx. Like your opinions and your methodology. What ya think KC

[cjurakpt]

BTW GA, if you want to remain anonymous on the web, don't post pictures of films that have your full name, PID and date of birth on them...

[golden arhat]

BTW GA, if you want to remain anonymous on the web, don't post pictures of films that have your full name, PID and date of birth on them...

yeah thats a point


i'l have to photoshop em out later

[cjurakpt]

Positive AROM in standing and supine with SLR also resisted, PROM negative unilateral stance neg all kicks except straight leg front kick are negative. Did the Pube thing no difficulty no "pop" pain is sharp and quick shallow at 90 deg flexion Hip flexion active with knee flexed is negative now 90 % time. no pain with palpation of the psoas muscle belly or rectus femoris Mm no significant popping or clicking and if it does it is pain free. Knee flexion to full ROM SKtC no compression pain. I still feel it is some tendinitis caused by compensating from the injury BTW I did not have Sx. Like your opinions and your methodology. What ya think KC

ok, so doing a standing AROM hip flexion with the knee bent and supine active / resisted SLR sharp/quick/shallow at ~90 deg; at face value it sounds like psoas/rectus is, as you say, a bit inflammed - again, I'd be interested in what's going on in the system that gets your hip flexors annoyed in the first place;
at this point, there is one specific maneuver I'd probably do (assuming nothing else waved a red flag to preclude it), which is a global "hip joint" technique that pretty much pinpoints and simultaneously clears out most things from knee through lumbar spine - (it's a MET that was "invented" by my wife's French osteo teacher, i learned it from her) it's done in suppine, starting from the extreme of hip fle/add/IR, with the patient trying to abd the knee against me, me not moving; you do this sequentially as you incrementally extend the hip until leg is off the side of the table; then you go into full hip flx/abd/ER, and have the pt. add the knee sequentially as you extend the hip; t/o this I am monitoring SIJ w/other hand, and feeling for tension as I move you to new position/slackening as you do the isometric; do both sides (can easily take ~10 minutes per side; real workout for the PT as well...); this tech is a great shotgun as well as good for getting very specific; downside is that it hurts like he!! through most of it (one of only about 2 or 3 things I do where I'm ok with that), but afterwards, you feel amazing (all the pro dancers I've treated with this swear by it, especially the one who was in STOMP...);

so my point in doing this with someone in a similar case, assuming everything else is negative, would be like a simultaneous provocation / treatment manuever, and it would give me a pretty solid idea of where to go after, either fascial or "cranial" or structural, depending on the response; unfortunately, it doesn't give us any more of an idea as to what is going on in your case...oh, I'd also look at how you pelvic diaphragm and respiratory diaphragm were coordinating during deep in/exhale

anyway, thanks for the mental exercise - as I am doing pretty much all pediatrics at this point, I dont get to think this way quite as often as i used to (I do lot of manual stuff on kids, but you just have to go about it differently from a methodological perspective)

[golden arhat]

ok, so doing a standing AROM hip flexion with the knee bent and supine active / resisted SLR sharp/quick/shallow at ~90 deg; at face value it sounds like psoas/rectus is, as you say, a bit inflammed - again, I'd be interested in what's going on in the system that gets your hip flexors annoyed in the first place;
at this point, there is one specific maneuver I'd probably do (assuming nothing else waved a red flag to preclude it), which is a global "hip joint" technique that pretty much pinpoints and simultaneously clears out most things from knee through lumbar spine - (it's a MET that was "invented" by my wife's French osteo teacher, i learned it from her) it's done in suppine, starting from the extreme of hip fle/add/IR, with the patient trying to abd the knee against me, me not moving; you do this sequentially as you incrementally extend the hip until leg is off the side of the table; then you go into full hip flx/abd/ER, and have the pt. add the knee sequentially as you extend the hip; t/o this I am monitoring SIJ w/other hand, and feeling for tension as I move you to new position/slackening as you do the isometric; do both sides (can easily take ~10 minutes per side; real workout for the PT as well...); this tech is a great shotgun as well as good for getting very specific; downside is that it hurts like he!! through most of it (one of only about 2 or 3 things I do where I'm ok with that), but afterwards, you feel amazing (all the pro dancers I've treated with this swear by it, especially the one who was in STOMP...);

so my point in doing this with someone in a similar case, assuming everything else is negative, would be like a simultaneous provocation / treatment manuever, and it would give me a pretty solid idea of where to go after, either fascial or "cranial" or structural, depending on the response; unfortunately, it doesn't give us any more of an idea as to what is going on in your case...oh, I'd also look at how you pelvic diaphragm and respiratory diaphragm were coordinating during deep in/exhale

anyway, thanks for the mental exercise - as I am doing pretty much all pediatrics at this point, I dont get to think this way quite as often as i used to (I do lot of manual stuff on kids, but you just have to go about it differently from a methodological perspective)

are you just saying randome medical words ?

[cjurakpt]

are you just saying randome medical words ?

no, sorry, just talking shop with KC; sorry about hi-jacking your thread, BTW

BTW, this is the sort of thing I'd look at if I were you:
http://www.bso.ac.uk/mm3spor.htm

if it's too far for you (I haveno idea how clse Manchester is to London), you might try to call them and ask for a local referral

[kwaichang]

Are you talking MET with D2 PNF ? Kind of sounds like it. BTW I thank you for your time as you know I do SD but I have truly enjoyed this as well I am now doing TCU rehab and never get to do my manual stuff either. This has really hampered my training . It is a wierd thing. If it is a D2 or D1 pnf with sequential resistance I will try it tonight let me know if I am close. KC
it s a bit confusing to read I am a visual learner.

[monji112000]

Unfortunately for golden arhat & the majority of us in the UK we are treated by the National Heath Service (the minority being people with lots of money & pay privately for health care) so If you want to switch Dr’s you have to register with a new practice & give reasons why you left your old Dr’s practice also if the new practice thinks your treatment may be too expensive the chances of being accepted as a new patient are not that good.

wow suck for you. say what you will about the US, but at least we haven't switched to socialized medicine yet.. (thank g-d or I would be in big trouble). Can you pay cash to see a Doc? its prob too expensive...

[cjurakpt]

Are you talking MET with D2 PNF ? Kind of sounds like it. BTW I thank you for your time as you know I do SD but I have truly enjoyed this as well I am now doing TCU rehab and never get to do my manual stuff either. This has really hampered my training . It is a wierd thing. If it is a D2 or D1 pnf with sequential resistance I will try it tonight let me know if I am close. KC
it s a bit confusing to read I am a visual learner.

yeah, it's like that, except diferent (LOL); actually, it's probably pretty close, although I don';t remember the exact parameters of D2 for the leg (I don't do much PNF, and if I do it's mostly scapular); and obviously the manner it is applied is not quite the same, though similar (Voss and Mitchell are basically two sides of the same coin in a way)

I agree about being a visual learner as well - show it to me, do it on me, let me do it to you, then we can talk about it afterwards...the real problem is that it's a transmission thing - gotta put your hands on your teacher's and all that (manual is very much like martial, right?); as for doing it yourself, it really doesn't get the same effect, because it's very hard to balance the tensions in 3D at the barrier yourself, and also the lever arm is poor to resist it; if I had the time, I'd video tape it and post it...

[kwaichang]

Cool I have a friend that will help if you are ever in Tennessee look me up I will buy you some chinese noodles. KC

[Mano Mano]

wow suck for you. say what you will about the US, but at least we haven't switched to socialized medicine yet.. (thank g-d or I would be in big trouble). Can you pay cash to see a Doc? its prob too expensive...
You can pay for private treatment id f you choose to, or pay into private medical care scheme can be expensive for some.
The main reason most don’t go private as an adult in the UK is due to what’s called National Insurance it’s compulsory to pay for working adults, out of that comes entitlement to for state pension, unemployment benefit & other contributory benefits such as widow’s pensions & heath care.
So most people don’t go private because it would mean technically paying twice for healthcare.
National Insurance deductions from pay are about 11% of earnings for those who are eligible to pay National Insurance & that’s separate from Income Tax deductions.

[couch]

I'm thinking that either you are a new grad, or if not, then just a jerk, because as a licensed healthcare practitioner, you should really be much more circumspect, respectful and responsible about what you state, especially when you sign your name to it with all your nice letters lined up in a row after it; quite frankly, it's embarrassing to read what you write because it just shows such a lack of knowledge that I really almost don't know what to say to you (and spare me the disclaimer - saying "no offense" as a preamble and then doing just that...give me a break); now, I will be the first to agree that there are many PT's essentially hacking their way through patients (like in any profession - chiros, LMT, TCM - you will find sub-standard clinicians in ALL of these fields), but to make a blanket statement about all PT's is just BS, not to mention very poor form; in reality, there are many PT's out there treating from systematic, rigorous methodological standpoints, and getting excellent results: certainly not "jack of all trades" - when was the last time that you spoke to a master clinician in the area of cardio-pulminary PT? or in pediatric in-patient rehab? or an Aussie physio with a GDMT? I'd go on, but quite frankly it's almost not worth it - your myoptic perspective is so absurd that the odds of you waking up are pretty much non-existant

so you can take you "opinionated opinion" and stuff it;

I don't have a myoptic perspective. You really believe that all that westernized healing mumbo-jumbo is great stuff? Devoid of all mental and spiritual healing? And that's what we've reduced Acupuncture to? Communist Chinese Medicine reduced to a trigger point, trained by someone who has spent a weekend learning it?

Sounds safe and holistic to me. :)

[David Jamieson]

just lay off the wanking and drink your milk, you'll be back to normal at warp speed! :p

[cjurakpt]

sofa:

your reading comprehension skills are obviously even more limited than your ability to express yourself


I don't have a myoptic perspective.
yes you do; and your response confirms it;


You really believe that all that westernized healing mumbo-jumbo is great stuff?
you're joking, right? I mean, it's the only possible explanation for a statement as retarded as this; but ok, I'll bite: first off, I never stated anything like that: please indicate where I did (I know, you can't, but just giving you a chance to further humiliate yourself); second, not that it has anything to do with your initial moronic statement, but I actually don't believe that what you mislabel as "western medicine" (there really is no such thing at this point: what you really mean to say is allopathic - at least get your terms correct if you are going to try to make a point) has all the answers, like any system of medicine; however, it is a fact that a) it works a he1l of a lot better than TCM or whatever you want to call it for many things (and vice versa), and b) it actually is based on principles that are the opposite of "mumbo jumbo" (but I think that you are well aware of this, I think that you are just stating this because you are indulging in some troll-like behavior)


Devoid of all mental and spiritual healing?
actually, this is a commone misconception about "the west", which is that there are no healing tradtions that consider the importance of mental/spiritual aspects in their approach; well, here's the list that firmly contradicts that: osteopathy, chiropractic, homeopathy, naturopathy, hypnosis, anthroposophical medicine, etc. etc.; and guess what: even the allopathic approach acknowledges the importance of this, it just doesn't deal with it in quite the same way, which sometimes is good and sometimes it's not; it's really a tired argument, please stop it;


And that's what we've reduced Acupuncture to? Communist Chinese Medicine reduced to a trigger point, trained by someone who has spent a weekend learning it?
well first off, there are many in your community that would argue that TCM as typically taught and practiced is a watered down, Communist Party inspired PC version of classical Chinese medicine; second, I agree that there are many trends within the curent healthcare system vis a vis acupuncture that are at best questionable and at worst detrimental, such as training MD's in one day to use a cookbook-like approach to needling; but guess what, that's got nothing to do with you being an idiot


Sounds safe and holistic to me. :)
you should spend less time with you head up your own a$$ similing at your feeble attempts at being sardonic, and concentrate more on the fact that when you see the world through your own butt hole...oh forget it, I've lost control of the metaphor...

anyway, in closing, it is abundantly clear that in regards to your original asenine statement
(
No offense to any physio's, but Golden Arhat, they are a catch-bag of tricks. They're going to throw anything the can at you to try and fix you. Jack of all trades, master of none.)
your follow-up was successful in:
a) completely missing the point of my post, which pointed out the blatantly narrow-minded, innappropriately biased and downright absurd nature of your statement regarding the profession of PT as a whole
b) failing to answer a single question I asked you in my response
c) clearly demonstrating that when faced with a response to which you have no rebbuttal (sp?), your tactic is to create straw-man arguments to avoid having to deal with the fact that you don't have a proverbial leg to stand on
d) providing TWS with yet another opportunity to make comments about the fluid-retention capacity of my genito-urinary system

let's keep it simple: if you want to make sweeping generalizations then you're gonna get called on it: it would have been so much simpler if you had said something like "GA - in my personal experience, the out-patient orthopedic PT's I've met / heard about from my own clients seem to take an 'everything-including-the-kitchen-sink' approach and don't appear to get very good results based on the reports from my clients; I don't know if this is the case with all PT's, but just letting you know that your experience is not isolated"; in this case, not only would I have not contradicted you, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly - which is to say that there are many PT's out there in private ortho practice who I wouldn't let touch me with a 10' pole; but at the same time, there are others out there who are amazing and get consistently good results; and that is a fact which essentially nullifies your initial comment;

<flush>

[couch]

it would have been so much simpler if you had said something like "GA - in my personal experience, the out-patient orthopedic PT's I've met / heard about from my own clients seem to take an 'everything-including-the-kitchen-sink' approach and don't appear to get very good results based on the reports from my clients; I don't know if this is the case with all PT's, but just letting you know that your experience is not isolated"; in this case, not only would I have not contradicted you, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly - which is to say that there are many PT's out there in private ortho practice who I wouldn't let touch me with a 10' pole; but at the same time, there are others out there who are amazing and get consistently good results; and that is a fact which essentially nullifies your initial comment;

<flush>

Perfect. Next time I post at the Wing Chun forum, I'll get you to do it for me.

Actually, let's just blame it on the fact that I'm a WC guy. I know that my WCKF is better than your Kung-Fu. AND I know that my lineage is better than anyone else's, too.

:rolleyes:

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[I-K]

suck it up or go to a real doctor. If the first doctor doesn't give you a good answer go to a better one.

*points up* Wot 'e sed, plus infinity...

When I first started having problems with my knees six years back, it took several months to find a doctor who could be arsed to refer me for an MRI on my right knee, then another several months to find a surgeon who could be arsed to describe the proposed corrective surgery beyond calling it an "arthroscopy" (no mention of how much of what they were planning to cut, stitch, replace, shine a light on...)... I went through four general-practitioners and three surgeons.

Took another four years after that to find out I needed an ACL reconstruction on my left knee, but that's a whole other story...

[mickey]

Greetings,

I deleted my message GA. I did not realize you are 16 years old. Why are you talking with us and not your parents?


mickey

[golden arhat]

Greetings,

I deleted my message GA. I did not realize you are 16 years old. Why are you talking with us and not your parents?


mickey


ive been doing martial arts for most of my life
i'm just as intelligent and have the same ability to make good and bad descisions as anybody else on here
so dont talk down to me

i have discussed this with my dad and he can only give advice
and seeing as he is not a martial artist or a physiotherapist neither is my mother

my doctor and PT havent helped alot either

so i've been seeking advice from other PT's and martial artists both at my club
and online

its kind of self explanatory why i am asking advice from martial artists andPT's

because
(surprise, surprise)
i would like advice from PT's and martial artists


simple really

[mickey]

golden arhat,

Talking down to people is not something that I do. But since your response to me suggested that I was talking down to you, let me get parental:

STOP DOING THE M.A. STUFF AND ALLOW YOUR ARM TO FREAKIN' HEAL, ALREADY!!! YOU ARE WORSENING IT TO THE POINT WHERE YOU WILL END UP WITH A WEAK ARM!!!!! (Seriously)

Now, go to your room and do your homework. And no back talk from you, young man. You think you have something to say to me? Huh? HUH? What was that??? HOLY SCHLITZ!! You're grounded, son. No Telly, no computer, nuthin'.

If you look at me funny, I will take away those "magazines" that make your grip so strong. So don't you even try to eyeball me.

================================================== =============

In all seriousness, I hope you heal well and get the care you need.




mickey

[Lucas]

My professional opinion:

Amputation, at the shoulder, you know just to be safe and all.