Who else misses old school Kung Fu action?

[The Xia]

These days, it seems that everyone goes for Contemporary Wushu and Wire-Fu. Sure, it's eye-candy for the masses but I really miss seeing real stuff in movies. Anyone else with me on this? In my opinion, the Contemporary Wushu choreography just blurs together and when all is said and done, nothing stands out. Whereas when I watch Gordon Liu, I remember the fights. In my opinion, Kung Fu movies are best when they use TCMA or even Peking Opera. I've grown sick of Contemporary Wushu being used.

[jethro]

I miss old school kung fu movies because of the way they edited the fights and how many moves they would to in a single take. Its not the same when Tony Jaa does a long take, the moves just don't look as good as the old school movies.

[Jimbo]

I also like the longer takes, and also, nowadays, no matter how good a new martial arts film can be, they still lack the sheer variety of performers in the past. You had guys that did all manner of traditional styles, plus as mentioned, the Peking/Beijing Opera-trained performers. Also, a number of non-Chinese stylists, such as from karate and taekwondo, successfully made the transition into KF films. PLUS, you had guys who never had formal m.a. training who nonetheless could look good (Leung Kar-Yan, David Chiang, Lo Lieh, Hui Ying-Hung, etc.). Plus the variety of directors and choreographers compared to today.

Compare that to now. If it's "kung fu" at all, it's contemporary wushu. Final. And wushu all looks the same on screen after awhile, regardless southern, northern, internal/external, etc. And most of the choreographers, even old-school ones, have run out of ideas. Corey Yuen, Yuen Wo-Ping, etc. And now it's all wire-work and CGI. So the physical skill level on most contemporary m.a. films is not as complex. Donnie Yen right now is the best out there, followed by Tony Jaa and crew. But two guys and their crews can only carry the martial arts genre so far.

Also, IMO the period kung fu films hold up far, far better than even really good contemporary action/martial arts films. Watch a modern-day m.a. film from the mid-'70s/mid-'80s today, and lots of things that were supposed to be so cool now seem like dumb antiques, like the "futuristic," computerized lunch wagon in Meals on Wheels. Whereas, Chang Cheh's Shaolin series, for example, taking place in the Ching/Qing Dynasty, still seems relevant. Also, times past/ as in 150-400+ years ago, was more the era when m.a. would fit into such stories and make better sense.

[BlueTravesty]

I like the stories and ambience for a lot of old-school stuff, and many of them have genuinely great fight scenes, but I really, really hate the fight scenes where it was all broken down into steps and poses. Strike, Pose, Block, Pose, Block, Pose, strike, pose, block. I don't even know what to call it. You probably know the kinds of fights I'm talking about, but just in case, I'll clarify. They would usually go something like this

A- drops into bow stance and punches
B- drops into horse stance and blocks
A- gets up from horse stance, moves forward a bit, drops into bow stance, and strikes with the other arm
B- moves back, drops into bow stance, blocks, and grabs the arm
A- comes up again, throws a strike and tries to move forward
B- traps the other arm, smiles and makes some sort of disparaging comment
A- enraged, does a low kick that even Shaquille O'Neal would have no trouble spotting, tall as he is
B- spotting the obvious low kick, raises his foot, enabling A to free his arms
A- backs off a bit, taking a "defensive" stance.
They both say "Haawaaaaaa!" and then...
B- strikes, dropping into horse stance...

And on and on like that. Still worse than that, in some of the scenes they would be looking away from the opponent WHILE FIGHTING. Can't think of any specific examples- will have to go back through my "bargain bin" dvd's again.

For all that though, those fight scenes are better than what most american studios produce. Sure, the scenes are faster, but there are too many camera angle changes, quick cuts, and close ups so bad you can almost hear the action director say "Stuntman!"

I guess it's about the lesser of two evils.

[jethro]

Most of Bolo Yeung's old school fights he wouldn't look at his opponent when fighting. I loved it. He was the king of no look kung fu.

[The Xia]

A- drops into bow stance and punches
B- drops into horse stance and blocks
A- gets up from horse stance, moves forward a bit, drops into bow stance, and strikes with the other arm
B- moves back, drops into bow stance, blocks, and grabs the arm
A- comes up again, throws a strike and tries to move forward
B- traps the other arm, smiles and makes some sort of disparaging comment
A- enraged, does a low kick that even Shaquille O'Neal would have no trouble spotting, tall as he is
B- spotting the obvious low kick, raises his foot, enabling A to free his arms
A- backs off a bit, taking a "defensive" stance.
They both say "Haawaaaaaa!" and then...
B- strikes, dropping into horse stance...
I actually don't mind those. :D

[The Xia]

I also like the longer takes, and also, nowadays, no matter how good a new martial arts film can be, they still lack the sheer variety of performers in the past. You had guys that did all manner of traditional styles, plus as mentioned, the Peking/Beijing Opera-trained performers. Also, a number of non-Chinese stylists, such as from karate and taekwondo, successfully made the transition into KF films. PLUS, you had guys who never had formal m.a. training who nonetheless could look good (Leung Kar-Yan, David Chiang, Lo Lieh, Hui Ying-Hung, etc.). Plus the variety of directors and choreographers compared to today.

Compare that to now. If it's "kung fu" at all, it's contemporary wushu. Final. And wushu all looks the same on screen after awhile, regardless southern, northern, internal/external, etc. And most of the choreographers, even old-school ones, have run out of ideas. Corey Yuen, Yuen Wo-Ping, etc. And now it's all wire-work and CGI. So the physical skill level on most contemporary m.a. films is not as complex. Donnie Yen right now is the best out there, followed by Tony Jaa and crew. But two guys and their crews can only carry the martial arts genre so far.

Also, IMO the period kung fu films hold up far, far better than even really good contemporary action/martial arts films. Watch a modern-day m.a. film from the mid-'70s/mid-'80s today, and lots of things that were supposed to be so cool now seem like dumb antiques, like the "futuristic," computerized lunch wagon in Meals on Wheels. Whereas, Chang Cheh's Shaolin series, for example, taking place in the Ching/Qing Dynasty, still seems relevant. Also, times past/ as in 150-400+ years ago, was more the era when m.a. would fit into such stories and make better sense.
I agree with you for the most part on this issue. My main bone of contention would be about Donnie Yen as the current best. To me, the Wushu movie choreography all looks the same (as you stated), regardless of who is doing what at this point. I really can't say he is better then Jet Li or anyone. To me, they both look the same. In recent movies, I liked seeing Hung Kuen in Kung Fu Hustle.

[doug maverick]

donnie's chorey looks way defferent from jets or anyone else, he has a flavor of his own and style of his own. its refreshing after watching these non-existant martial arts action films. i think donnie is the best out right now and that includes tony jaa.

[jethro]

This is the kind of stuff I really miss- http://youtube.com/watch?v=4e3Tb1nUZL8

Pure hate right there.

[The Xia]

This is the kind of stuff I really miss- http://youtube.com/watch?v=4e3Tb1nUZL8

Pure hate right there.
Wow you don't see that kind of thing anymore. Talk about emotion! Something that the old school movies had was creativity. Remember all the interesting styles they put in there? Remember all the weird stuff? Like sleeping fist. Don't see that anymore.

[The Xia]

donnie's chorey looks way defferent from jets or anyone else, he has a flavor of his own and style of his own. its refreshing after watching these non-existant martial arts action films. i think donnie is the best out right now and that includes tony jaa.
I just don't see it. To be honest, I think that Tony Jaa's stuff stands out more.

[jethro]

Wow you don't see that kind of thing anymore. Talk about emotion! Something that the old school movies had was creativity. Remember all the interesting styles they put in there? Remember all the weird stuff? Like sleeping fist. Don't see that anymore.

Have you seen Buddha Assassinator? Hwang Jang Lee pulls out the sleeping style and it is the coolest kung fu style I have ever seen. The final fight is like 10 minutes long. Maybe the greatest fight scene ever filmed.

And tony Jaa's stuff is better than Donnie Yen's? I think you may be in the minority on that one, but you go on with your bad self!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love the current films of Donnie Yen, he makes MMA look beautiful ( no easy feat) and practical ( for a movie anyway).

I think that if its a period piece, you can wire-fu it to death for all I care, as long as it is done artistically, but you still have to keep it a bit "real", but if it is a "modern piece" than you have to respect the bar that Yen's movies have set.

[doug maverick]

then your blind i'm sorry to have to be the one to deliver the bad news. the vast defference between jet li and donnie yen is obvious to anyone who has watched any of there films and i'm not just talking recently, you look at tiger cage and then look at something like the bodygaurd film he did(can;t remember the name) the techinque is way defferent when jet fights he looks like a wushu guy while donnie does not he has his own flavor that you can only call donnie yen style. now lets bring it up to date look at flash point or sha po lang/killzone, those two films have the best fight choreagraphy to date hands down. what makes tony jaa is his stunts the choreagraphy that he does for the actual fights has been done already nothing new there and in that respect he actualy resembles jet li more then donnie. XIA, go watch spl and flashpoint again then go watch some old jet li stuff and then watch tony jaa and come back and comment.

[sanjuro_ronin]

then your blind i'm sorry to have to be the one to deliver the bad news. the vast defference between jet li and donnie yen is obvious to anyone who has watched any of there films and i'm not just talking recently, you look at tiger cage and then look at something like the bodygaurd film he did(can;t remember the name) the techinque is way defferent when jet fights he looks like a wushu guy while donnie does not he has his own flavor that you can only call donnie yen style. now lets bring it up to date look at flash point or sha po lang/killzone, those two films have the best fight choreagraphy to date hands down. what makes tony jaa is his stunts the choreagraphy that he does for the actual fights has been done already nothing new there and in that respect he actualy resembles jet li more then donnie. XIA, go watch spl and flashpoint again then go watch some old jet li stuff and then watch tony jaa and come back and comment.

Who is this directed to?

[doug maverick]

the xia sorry i should have quoted

[BlueTravesty]

This is the kind of stuff I really miss- http://youtube.com/watch?v=4e3Tb1nUZL8

Pure hate right there.

That's good stuff. Not too choppy. The few appendage-to-face closeups were kind of a downer, but otherwise, solid stuff through and through. I'll have to check out the whole flick sometime :) I might have to get together with friend/s and my wife and give it our personal MST3K treatment; it looks promising.

[BlueTravesty]

I actually don't mind those. :D

There's certain movies where it belongs, and others where you're just like "Come on... just HIT him."

But these fights are not in any way, shape, or form more "TCMA" than less-choppy fights. If real TCMA means leaving your fist out a split second too long (which does NOT make it look "clean," it makes me wonder if the guy's having a cramp) or blocking a punch that was telegraphed to the extent that Stephen Hawking could have just moved away from it while explaining its mass and velocity, we're in trouble.


I agree with you for the most part on this issue. My main bone of contention would be about Donnie Yen as the current best. To me, the Wushu movie choreography all looks the same (as you stated), regardless of who is doing what at this point. I really can't say he is better then Jet Li or anyone. To me, they both look the same. In recent movies, I liked seeing Hung Kuen in Kung Fu Hustle.

I think DY looks different in his best films. Iron Monkey, SPL, and Flashpoint all look stylistically different- especially Flashpoint. Not a lot of Wushu there.

What I will say- and I say this as someone who hasn't ever done Hung Gar (Northern styles FTW) but has seen a fair piece in his time- Donnie Yen and Jet Li are fantastic Movie Martial Artists, but their stuff does NOT look like Hung. At all. Awesome as Iron Monkey was, that wasn't Hung Gar.

[SPJ]

every thing changes with time.

The matrix triology and Steven Chow Shaolin soccer, they crossed the line.

computer generated imagetry or CGI will make any one a superman.

movies are always about entertainment.

serious kung fu would be then documentaries.

of course I looked down upon CGI. why? b/c I am not a superman,

I am just an old dude.

people always want to watch something flashy or out of their reaches on the big screen,

so for a movie maker, it is whatever sells sells.

:)

[Jimbo]

Blue Travesty:
I agree with you on the Hung Gar in Iron Monkey, Once Upon a Time in China, etc.
I think it has more to do with Yuen Wo-Ping's choreography. Since OUATIC with Jet Li -- who was an odd choice to play Wong Fei-Hong -- Wo-Ping's Hung choreography has looked mostly like acrobatic Wushu Changquan, or in some cases, more like Tae Kwon Do.

I think Lau Kar-Leung would have been the best choreographer for a movie about Hung Style. Though it seems most audiences didn't really care that the style wasn't shown anywhere close to accurately. There doesn't seem to be any new action performers in HK that actually learned Hung Gar, or if they did, show it.

[jethro]

Blue Travesty:
I agree with you on the Hung Gar in Iron Monkey, Once Upon a Time in China, etc.
I think it has more to do with Yuen Wo-Ping's choreography. Since OUATIC with Jet Li -- who was an odd choice to play Wong Fei-Hong -- Wo-Ping's Hung choreography has looked mostly like acrobatic Wushu Changquan, or in some cases, more like Tae Kwon Do.

I think Lau Kar-Leung would have been the best choreographer for a movie about Hung Style. Though it seems most audiences didn't really care that the style wasn't shown anywhere close to accurately. There doesn't seem to be any new action performers in HK that actually learned Hung Gar, or if they did, show it.

Lau Kar Wing was the choreographer for OUATIC, but then Tsui Hark told Lau his vision of the No Shadow kick and Lau quit and Woo Ping and his crew took over. The ladder fight was good, so at least something positive came out of it.

[jethro]

That's good stuff. Not too choppy. The few appendage-to-face closeups were kind of a downer, but otherwise, solid stuff through and through. I'll have to check out the whole flick sometime :) I might have to get together with friend/s and my wife and give it our personal MST3K treatment; it looks promising.

Get the Videoasia version under the title Kung Fu Superman. It is fully uncut, and it is one of the few times I can highly recommend a Videoasia release. That final fight on youtube is cut by like 3 minutes. Its not a great movie, but there is a good 40 minutes of quality fighting. The movie is from 1975, and as you can see, a lot of the kicks miss and there are some problems with the fight, but who cares. You won't find many fights more intense than that.

[The Xia]

Re: Jethro and Sleeping Fist.
I was actually thinking of the Simon Yuen movie named Sleeping Fist. I’ve never seen Buddha Assassinator in its entirety, but it looks awesome. They had some other zany styles if I remember. Hwang Jang Lee is also the real deal as a martial artist. Old school TKD. On his kungfucinema bio it says that while he was in Vietnam he killed someone with a kick who was wielding a knife!
Re: Doug and Donnie Yen/Tony Jaa.
Ok, I’ll give it to you that spl wasn’t the usual choreography (especially that final fight), but it still had a wushu base. And Iron Monkey looks the same as any Jet Li period piece in my book. At this point, if it’s wushu it looks the same to me. And I’ll also give it to you that it’s more Jaa’s stunts that drive his performance. But, I find them more entertaining then Donnie’s fights.
Re: Travesty and Choppy fighting.
I hear you on that but I guess it never bothered me as much since it doesn’t have that wushu tendency to all look the same. I think they do that (slow, choppy, stopping, etc) to get the audience to see what’s going on, but sometimes that can go way too far.

[jethro]

Yeah Sleeping fist is a great movie. Probably one of Leung Kar Yan's top 5 performances.

I think Last Hurrah for Chivalry was the first movie to use sleeping style where Chien Yuet san plays the Sleeping Wizard. Buddha Assassinator takes it to another level. I also remember Stephen Chow using it in one of his movies.

Here are some more crazy styles-

Centipede- from 5 Venoms
Crab- Dirty Tiger Crazy Frog, and Heroes of the East has an even cooler crab style
Lobster- Snake deadly Act
Crazy Horse- Fearless Dragons
Rodent Styles- 8 Strikes of the Wildcat
Spider- Challenge of Death
Scorpion- Operation Scorpio

[BlueTravesty]

Centipede- from 5 Venoms
Crab- Dirty Tiger Crazy Frog, and Heroes of the East has an even cooler crab style
Lobster- Snake deadly Act
Crazy Horse- Fearless Dragons
Rodent Styles- 8 Strikes of the Wildcat
Spider- Challenge of Death
Scorpion- Operation Scorpio

I thought Eel Kung Fu was the stranger of the two styles in Operation Scorpio.

[jethro]

I thought Eel Kung Fu was the stranger of the two styles in Operation Scorpio.

I was going to mention the eel but I have never seen someone use scorpion style where they actually get in a pose like a scorpion. The eel looked more like breakdancing.

[Lucas]

http://http://youtube.com/watch?v=8YiUxpRLunc (http://youtube.com/watch?v=8YiUxpRLunc)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bvOIHTTyqM4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=65IS3Rx-p3o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BBi2udFHY-Q

[jethro]

None of those clips can match this- http://youtube.com/watch?v=t9ELvtEX5H0

Or these- http://youtube.com/watch?v=xHMOkFnnW7U
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8a7UcwmMh3o
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ynJoVY5ElBw

And one more old school fight that will blow your mind- http://youtube.com/watch?v=oZX9UYNIvS0

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTGW5Vibgd4

and this.

:D

[Takuan]

I expected lots more MMA!!!!!!'s

Whoever that one guy is that voted it, must have balls of steel. >_> <_<

It certainly WASNT ME! >_> *hides*

[The Xia]

None of those clips can match this- http://youtube.com/watch?v=t9ELvtEX5H0

Or these- http://youtube.com/watch?v=xHMOkFnnW7U
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8a7UcwmMh3o
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ynJoVY5ElBw

And one more old school fight that will blow your mind- http://youtube.com/watch?v=oZX9UYNIvS0
Since we're talking about crazy styles and one of the videos is Magnificent Butcher, anyone remember the cat style? Check out the scene where Sammo fights this guy who uses it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v79tkQXCHUA

[jethro]

That is a great fight. Check out another great fight with Chung Fa- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3otpCSr1kCE

[Lucas]

I really enjoy fights that are choreographed more along the lines of what actual fighting is like.

You dont get a lot of fights like that.

Granted I enjoy old shaw flicks right along with the rest....but we all know most of whats choreographed in the old flicks comes no where near what actual fighting is like.


But I like all martial arts films, even the super bad ones. But my favorite fight scenes always were and always will be those that try to mimic real combat.

Not a lot out there like that though.

[Jimbo]

Some of the better flicks that show realistic combat include Eastern Promises, A History of Violence, Casino, etc. Believe it or not, some of the very early Steven Seagal films showed fairly realistic simulations of real violence, esp. a couple scenes in Above the Law.

I also like some movies that show realistic fighting...sometimes. I've seen my share of real-life violence up close, and some incidents I've seen were even uglier than what's been portrayed in the cinema. So in movies, I tend to favor the more stylized choreography of the Shaw Classics and some Golden Harvests and independents as well. Though I find it annoying when recent (1990s and later) films overdo the "Crouching Tiger" and "Hero" syndrome (way overly-stylized/way out).