Teaching Kids to Kill?

[Black Jack II]

This is an article by Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman who runs the Killology Research Group. It is an interesting read based on his perceptions that violent video games and media outlets help to condition kids to kill.

His research is mostly based on the works of S.L.A Marshall who was a solider in WWI and WW2. Dave Grossman's think tank takes it a step further though, with customized researchers in educational psychology, abnormal psychology and military warfare practices.

The question is thus...do you believe that violent and gorn porno video games, movies and other media outlets help to act as "murder simulators" for children and to bring down their psychology barrier for the actual act of killing...or do you believe that this type of thinking is flawed and attempts to pass the buck on the responsibility of one's own action.

Here is the long article.

http://www.killology.com/article_teachkid.htm

[Mr Punch]

The question is thus...do you believe that violent and gorn porno video games, movies and other media outlets help to act as "murder simulators" for children and to bring down their psychology barrier for the actual act of killing...or do you believe that this type of thinking is flawed and attempts to pass the buck on the responsibility of one's own action.
Before I read the article, my gut answer is: both.

[David Jamieson]

This is an article by Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman who runs the Killology Research Group. It is an interesting read based on his perceptions that violent video games and media outlets help to condition kids to kill.

His research is mostly based on the works of S.L.A Marshall who was a solider in WWI and WW2. Dave Grossman's think tank takes it a step further though, with customized researchers in educational psychology, abnormal psychology and military warfare practices.

The question is thus...do you believe that violent and gorn porno video games, movies and other media outlets help to act as "murder simulators" for children and to bring down their psychology barrier for the actual act of killing...or do you believe that this type of thinking is flawed and attempts to pass the buck on the responsibility of one's own action.

Here is the long article.

http://www.killology.com/article_teachkid.htm

Child soldiers in Africa don't have much in the way of x-box, pc's and video games. They are taken from their village(s), given a kalashnikov and forced to kill until they become zombies.

While video games may develop callous attitudes, it is no substitute for actual action/reaction in my opinion and probably shouldn't be regarded as much.

fat doughy children of middle america who are **** bang at counter strike would crap their collective knickers if dropped into a firefight. I can pretty much guarantee that. :)

[WinterPalm]

Throughout history people have blamed everything from Elvis to the Doors, the Matrix to the internet to video games.
Twisted, messed up kids will kill people.
Video games probably contribute but ultimately it has something to do with the lowered appreciation and value of human life. In realistic video games, I've seen some of the new X-Box stuff and it is crazy-real, you are killing people and it is fun or entertaining.

As a kid I played more than ten kids fair share of Mortal Kombat and I'm not out killing people and trying to pull their heads off!:D

[WinterPalm]

Actually, this is a big issue in my city as we are now the Murdering Children Capital of Canada or something to that extent.
Gang-culture and little to no positive role models, including father figures, plays a huge part in my opinion.

[Black Jack II]

Their are a number of other articles in his group about soliders and the process of killing, its actually a large aspect of what is on the site.

What is interesting is the military science of conditioning soliders to kill, and how it is applied to children through violent media outlets, more so by accident than anything of true purpose.

An example being that the military ties in its a role-model basis with its violent conditioning but with the world outside of boot camp, a lot of young kids may not get a realistic role model to tamper what they are seeing.

For the record, I voted no, I believe this is often a scapegoat people use to take away the blame from somone's own horrible choice, such as a school shooting.

[hskwarrior]

Video games DO have an effect on the mind when you play them over and over again. out of experience, i was playing killzone, this game you had to shoot out video surveilance camera's and such.

well, after about a month or so later, i pulled into the gas station and look up. instantly i wanted to shoot out the video camera. it was the fist thing that popped up in my head.

in moderation, i feel video games are great......but i do feel out of personal experience, it can program you.

so, yeah, for certain people, i can see how this may happen.

[Mr Punch]

****ing excellent article. I'll be reading more of that site.

One small thing I'm a bit dubious about: he said that 15 years after TV became widespread the crime rate went up, but in those days TV programmes were very tightly controlled and I'm sure the violence/murder rate on TV wasn't as high then (e.g. his figure of 60% of all males on TV being involved in violence). Can't see anyone going out and popping someone after watchign an episode of Bewitched or Mr Ed. Not saying it's wrong but there must be a lot of other factors involved.

Movies might be one: you have the reward of popcorn for your stimulus of violence.

[bawang]

Actually, this is a big issue in my city as we are now the Murdering Children Capital of Canada or something to that extent.
Gang-culture and little to no positive role models, including father figures, plays a huge part in my opinion.

i agree with you, i think gang culture is 100 times more dangerous than video games. I think BET single handedly ruined America.

[Mr Punch]

Child soldiers in Africa don't have much in the way of x-box, pc's and video games. They are taken from their village(s), given a kalashnikov and forced to kill until they become zombies.

While video games may develop callous attitudes, it is no substitute for actual action/reaction in my opinion and probably shouldn't be regarded as much.

fat doughy children of middle america who are **** bang at counter strike would crap their collective knickers if dropped into a firefight. I can pretty much guarantee that. :)Did you read the article? The two things (child soldiers in Africa and kid killing sprees in the US) are not exclusive.

As BJ says he goes into army based killing psychology too.

And while it is used as a scapegoat, that's not to say that in many cases it isn't bang-on.

[Black Jack II]

Mr. Punch,

Here is a micro-cosmic aspect to the post as well, in retrospect do you think this chap would include the new MMA culture wave, as a part of this violence pie..??

Something to chew over.

[Mr Punch]

To whoever it was who said 'I played Mortal Kombat and I'm OK...' in case you hadn't noticed it there are different levels of susceptibility to anything in kids and adults. The poll is: do you think it is a factor, not do you think it is the most important factor.

[Mr Punch]

Mr. Punch,

Here is a micro-cosmic aspect to the post as well, in retrospect do you think this chap would include the new MMA culture wave, as a part of this violence pie..??

Something to chew over.Backyard Brawls anyone? Absolutely undoubtedly he would, and I do suspect the MMA explosion to become a major causal factor in violence in the future.

I know a friend who went to town on another friend's head and face with his elbows, on the ground, after he'd stopped responding. He watches, has fought a little in and hangs out with pro-MMAers

[bawang]

This is just a general corrupt moral in the culture. ask yourself, if it's normal for teenagers to party, drink beer and do the bang bang bang and forsake their gods and cultures,
what's wrong with them being violent?

(anyways, it's not that bad in north america, yet. things are worse elsewhere. my friend told me somebody in his school in china got in a fight, and a guy kneed him in the balls over and over, and he commited suicide in the hospital because his balls was mush. my distant cousin's friend from school told him to go to guang dong to make money,it was a trap and he's kidnapped and forced to sell drugs right now.)

[Black Jack II]

For those that are interested, here is a published 2000 study in the Journal of Social Psychology by the American Psychological Association on this very subject.

It takes a look at two studies after the 1999 Columbine attack, these studies are based on trait aggressiveness in young males and violent media input.

http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp784772.pdf

[David Jamieson]

The undisciplined mind will always fall to wanton destruction because it has not been cultivated through attainment of skill.

so, apathetic and lack-lustre kids will be destructive for the simple reason that they haven't a clue as to how to be constructive.

When babies break something, they are happy, because it makes them feel as if they have achieved something. :)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Before I read the article, my gut answer is: both.

Reply]
I had the same reaction.

[HOKPAIWES]

Whoah, small world. This website was just being discussed a few dyas back on the tai chi forum I lurk, turns out our sifu is old friends with Grossman which inspired me to go ahead and give the site a read thru. Pretty intense stuff I guess, who would ever think sucking down dr. peppers and playing resident evil would turn you into an expert marksman. Sifus always talk about not training people who may become or are sociopaths and give lectures about not using corporal punishment on our children since we train our hands etc.. . With training comes responsibility from both teacher and student, the most violent and off the handle guy I know is a military wash out. He is 20 and has already assult felonies on his record. I think what fuels his need to act out is the approval he gets for doing it, if he decks some guy at a party for example then his peers are there to share in the glory and later relive the moment.
Frats, cliches and gangs etc.. work this same way I believe. A fellow classmate works as a bouncer, at least once a week he some guy not wanting to obey the rules and make trouble. His job is interesting as he can not use violence, they are allowed to detain and carry a guy outside but no hitting what so ever.



My girlfriend used to work with one of the now free Jonesburo killers last year, he was a minor at the time so recieved no real punishment. She said he was a weirdo and when asked about the shootings didn't really show any signs that he cares one way or another what happened, like it was just a game.

[David Jamieson]

There's a couple of factors he leaves out and a definite subject he focuses and ruminates on a bit too much.

I think he leaves out the fact that there are 6+ billion people on the planet now were there was less than 3 billion in 1957, so, violence rates may very well be exactly the same as they ever were.

as for the kid who got the gun and killed the others etc etc. How much of that had to do with the already shaky psychology of that kid and how much of it was access to the weapon etc etc.

there are a lot of factors that are just plane old left out. making head shots with a 22 for instance really is childsplay, (apologies extended) inasmuch as there is not much in the way of skill required to handle such a small weapon, tre is no kick and the kid was in a "his surprise" situation.

ergo, I would tend to leave the psychology to the psychologists as opposed to ruminators. no offense, but this information while abundant is not sourced accurately, thoroughly or properly in my opinion.

there is no "psychology" in this. It is written from a perspective that is not considerate to the true factors of mentality involved and required to maliciously kill.

that's my spin on it anyway, and it certainly is worth debating to a degree. I do believe that we create a gateway to sanitizing the act of killing another, but then, if there is one common theme in humanity it is our propensity towards killing each oter no matter what our age.

[Mook Jong]

To whoever it was who said 'I played Mortal Kombat and I'm OK...' in case you hadn't noticed it there are different levels of susceptibility to anything in kids and adults. The poll is: do you think it is a factor, not do you think it is the most important factor.

Well having been one of those kids who played Doom and Goldeneye growing up, i hate the argument that video games=violent murderous children. I think that if a child has a violent streak, they will play video games that entertain them. I always thought that it was ridiculous to think that violent video games and such creates a violent murderer. Last i checked, jack the ripper had never played mortal kombat. i think a big part of it might be that my generation and the younger ones usually don't have as much parental contact as the previous ones have.

Sorry if this came off as a rant, i have been on the end of alot of these stereotypes about what has ruined the youth, i wear black and listen to heavy metal. this stuff gets under my skin.

[David Jamieson]

Well having been one of those kids who played Doom and Goldeneye growing up, i hate the argument that video games=violent murderous children. I think that if a child has a violent streak, they will play video games that entertain them. I always thought that it was ridiculous to think that violent video games and such creates a violent murderer. Last i checked, jack the ripper had never played mortal kombat. i think a big part of it might be that my generation and the younger ones usually don't have as much parental contact as the previous ones have.

Sorry if this came off as a rant, i have been on the end of alot of these stereotypes about what has ruined the youth, i wear black and listen to heavy metal. this stuff gets under my skin.

Parental and filial connectivity or lack of it is often a huge root cause of problems in youth. You hit a hard nail there. This is indeed a determining factor in behaviours.

[Mr Punch]

Well having been one of those kids who played Doom and Goldeneye growing up, i hate the argument that video games=violent murderous children. I think that if a child has a violent streak, they will play video games that entertain them. I always thought that it was ridiculous to think that violent video games and such creates a violent murderer. Last i checked, jack the ripper had never played mortal kombat. i think a big part of it might be that my generation and the younger ones usually don't have as much parental contact as the previous ones have.

Sorry if this came off as a rant, i have been on the end of alot of these stereotypes about what has ruined the youth, i wear black and listen to heavy metal. this stuff gets under my skin.Oh, as a one-time RPG player (obsessive?!), goth turned punk with a prediliction for hardcore punk music and the kind of spikey wristbands etc that are banned in Canada (!!) I was pretty much a walking stereotype of evil for some.

But the argument isn't "violent games = violent children", the argument is "violent games may play a part in exacerbating the violent tendencies of some children". Your very making it black-and-white is surely the same reaction as some dumbarse looking at your black clothes and saying your evil, no?

I repeat, the poll says: it is a factor.

[Chosen-frozen]

Grossman`s book "On Killing" is an excellent read. He`s not just another Psychologist PhD, he`s also a U.S. Army Ranger, so alot of combat vets were willing to talk to him about things they wouldn`t tell alot of other people.

One of the things he pointed out in the book is how the army has changed thier training over the years, and how video games played a part. HE NEVER SAYS VIDEO GAMES CAUSE PEOPLE TO BEHAVE VIOLENTLY. We are responsable for the choices we make. What he does say is that by making training experiances as realistic as possible you can lower a person`s mental inhibition to violence. In other words the more often you experience something, the less of a shock it is to yoU.

For example when my dad was in WWII he trained marksmanship on a clear open field, shooting at round black bullseyes on a clear day. By the Korean war we were using man-shaped sillohettes as targets.By Vietnam the sillohettes were colored to match th enemy`s uniforms and there was firing at night or with smoke blowing across the field to limit vision. Now we have the sillohettes rigged to move across the field or pop up unexpectedly. One of the things Navy Frogmen do during rest breaks in training is sit throwing sand in the air over thier heads to simulate having bullets strike near them so that later they aren`t as freaked out by it.One of the soldiers Grossman interviewed said the first time he killed someone it was so similar to the firing range that he never gave it a second thought until after he had to check the body

For centuries armies have recognized that people have a natural aversion to killing people when it`s not personal. I don`t remeber the exact stats he gives (the source was the US and UK Armies) but I think he said that in WWII only about 30% of soldiers would regularly fire dirfectly at another person. BY Korea it was 50%, and by Vietnam they had it up to 90% by using techniques like video games to desensitze people to the experience they were training for.

He also talks about how the Army used info from WWI, WWII, and Korea to figure out how long a group can be in combat (or under severe stress and fatigue) before they start to get too stressed out to be effective. The army has it down to a formula where they can predict the percentage of a group who will be unable to fight after a given amount of time in the field. It goe s from 0 days with 0% being mentally unfit for combat, all the way out to the point where 98% of the group will be mentally unfit for combat.

I thought it was interesting that it only goes up to 98%. His explantion is that about 2% of the the population at any given time are considered sociopaths and that while they don`t function well in everyday life, these 2% actually thrive in the stress of a combat environment. For the rest of us...if you`re in that environment long enough without a break the stress and fatigue WILL eventually break you.

[Mook Jong]

Oh, as a one-time RPG player (obsessive?!), goth turned punk with a prediliction for hardcore punk music and the kind of spikey wristbands etc that are banned in Canada (!!) I was pretty much a walking stereotype of evil for some.

But the argument isn't "violent games = violent children", the argument is "violent games may play a part in exacerbating the violent tendencies of some children". Your very making it black-and-white is surely the same reaction as some dumbarse looking at your black clothes and saying your evil, no?

I repeat, the poll says: it is a factor.

I still disagree with the idea that its a factor at all though. I feel like it's more a modern way to express it. I'm still kind of convinced that it's more sensationalism then substance. Some of the most placid people i know play video games religiously and have for a while. Meanwhile, some who are the most prone to violence never really played any video games growing up. Could be that i keep meeting exceptions rather than rules but in my experience there is a bigger corespondence between the home life and violence rather than video games.



and OT canada banned spikey wrist bands? weird, what were they afraid of?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Violence is in our genes.
From when we are kids to when we kick the bucket, the capacity and willingness to commit a violent act is always there.

I think that when we fail to see that, to address that 300lbs gorilla in the corner, when we try to convince ourselves that we are not like that, that "our' kids are not like that, that is when we get into trouble.

Go to any playground and you see kids "fighting", they play wrestle, the play kung fu, they imitate what they see on TV, yes, but even before there was TV they did the same thing.

The current issue seems to be the lack of understanding in regards to consequences for ones actions. much like posting on forums and saying anythign you want because no one knows who you are.
It would seem that the true understanding of the consequences of what one says and does, are a tad "gray" for some people, and not just kids.

When I bounced we had lots of under 20 in the clubs and when they misbehaved they were truly shocked to be thrown out, I recall one saying "you can't touch me, even my parent can't touch me", his rude awkening was quite interesting to see.

[Drake]

Video games DO have an effect on the mind when you play them over and over again. out of experience, i was playing killzone, this game you had to shoot out video surveilance camera's and such.

well, after about a month or so later, i pulled into the gas station and look up. instantly i wanted to shoot out the video camera. it was the fist thing that popped up in my head.

in moderation, i feel video games are great......but i do feel out of personal experience, it can program you.

so, yeah, for certain people, i can see how this may happen.



Are we brothers or something?

[The Willow Sword]

But my two cents worth on this discussion is this:

If anything, Violent video games, violent movies and the constant barrage of violent news media only serves to de-sensitize our children to violence. How many times have you driven past a car wreck and seen scores of people bumper necking to get a good look at whatever blood they can? Or seeing two drunks fight and beat each other to death? or the scores of violent situations broadcast on youtube? UFC? Pride? The Beheading of americans captured by Radical Islamists and broadcast on algezzera and then re broadcast by US on Ogrish and consumptionjunction?
We have a high rate of violence in this country and could we state that it is due to what we see on the television everynight or the video games that these geeky guys create for us?

you know it used to be said that violent music such as death metal and heavy metal in general facilitated extremely violent behavior in our youth(being an old member of the mosh pit i can safely say that those opinions on music were just plain wrong). Accountability lies within the individual and i think it is a cop out and a poor attempt to escape accountability when someone allows their emotions to get the better of them and they go out and seriously hurt someone or even kill them,and then they say " well i was out of my mind or i was posessed by the devil or Grand theft Auto influenced me to do this, or i just got so enraged and out of control when i listened to Pantera or Lamb of God(great band BTW)".

So i dont really believe that these sorry excuses for video games like GTA and violent movies or TV shows spawns the violent behavior and is a root cause of why we have violence in our society. We are violent by nature. if any thing i feel that what has the MOST influence in our violent history is RELIGION. I mean look at the Radical Islamist factions. They are motivated more so by their rhetoric(just like early christians were in the time of the crusades) to go out and blow themselves up or to go kill the infidels yada yada yada.

Would it be a safe statement to make if i said that "violent video games and movies and music etc were a SAFE outlet to channel that rage and aggression?" play GTA and be able to do all the things that you really couldnt get away with in society lest ye be caught and thrown in prison,or the mosh pit where you can bash around with other repressed men and come out with only bruises and a bloody nose here and there. Or watching a violent movie and allowing your mind to be desensitized and complacent in the face of that violence?

Okay i will go read the article now:D Peace,TWS

[hskwarrior]

drake,

not sure, but if you're my long lost brother.....come back home man, come back home.....we missed ya!!!!!:D

[Drake]

drake,

not sure, but if you're my long lost brother.....come back home man, come back home.....we missed ya!!!!!:D

Cause I was thinking the same thing a while back when I saw some surveillance camera.

1. Shoot cameras

2. Pick off guards

[hskwarrior]

that really tripped me out drake.......i pulled into a gas station, and the same video surveilance camera's were there that was in the video game........instantly i was like shoot that out.......then wait.......i'm not in the video game!!!!!!

so i can see how video can influence a weak minded person.

[Drake]

I disagree, Hsk. You NEVER see any of these mass shooters take out the cameras. EVER. They aren't learning this from the games.

[hskwarrior]

it doesn't happen cause its called......

Realization! i realized i wasn't in a video game so i didn't shoot them out. but some out there would answer that call.

if a guy can kill someone because he says the lyrics in a song told him to, video games ain't that far off from that.

but hell, ganja is the solution to the ills of the world.

[hskwarrior]

but i have a question.......why doesn't that happen to the coastal cities?

its seems all this stuff happens in the midwest.

[Drake]

it doesn't happen cause its called......

Realization! i realized i wasn't in a video game so i didn't shoot them out. but some out there would answer that call.

if a guy can kill someone because he says the lyrics in a song told him to, video games ain't that far off from that.

but hell, ganja is the solution to the ills of the world.

Hellz naw...if I went on a rampage, the first thing I'd take out would be those cameras. I don't have time to fight an endless stream of identical security guards, much less steal the ammo from their corpses!

[bawang]

but i have a question.......why doesn't that happen to the coastal cities?

its seems all this stuff happens in the midwest.

maybe it's because of the qualities of the schools. i read somewhere the comlombine shooters were bullied in school by jocks.(but they were already insane to begin with) i don't understand why kids here can't get along.

[Lucas]

My answer is no.

Anyone can become a killer, regardless of what you do.

LOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

before video games we had murderers, atrocities of the worst kind, etc...

video games had nothing to do with the crusades, WWI & II, Ancient Rome, slavery....the list really can go on until you die of old age.

NOW, we have video games, if people are concerned a video game is going to create violent actions in their players....they need to realize its not the video game.

Its the person.

I played violent video games all throughout my childhood. Remember my generation was halfway raised on them. I am not a violent person.

Sooo either my willpower is higher than every other human on the planet, or video game BS is just that BS...

look to the parents if you want to find out why a child is violent....

[Mook Jong]

but i have a question.......why doesn't that happen to the coastal cities?

its seems all this stuff happens in the midwest.

Can't go to a beach and watch chicks wearing bikinis in the midwest. Plenty of that one the coast though. :cool:

[golden arhat]

but i have a question.......why doesn't that happen to the coastal cities?

its seems all this stuff happens in the midwest.

inbreeding
thats why

[WinterPalm]

To whoever said:

To whoever it was who said 'I played Mortal Kombat and I'm OK...' in case you hadn't noticed it there are different levels of susceptibility to anything in kids and adults. The poll is: do you think it is a factor, not do you think it is the most important factor.

Read my orginal post #4.

:D

[Mr Punch]

I disagree, Hsk. You NEVER see any of these mass shooters take out the cameras. EVER. They aren't learning this from the games.LOL :D


My answer is no.

Anyone can become a killer, regardless of what you do.True. And there are many factors as to why. And exposure to violence is one of them!


LOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

before video games we had murderers, atrocities of the worst kind, etc...The studies are saying that violent crime rates have doubled, tripled, quadrupled in every country that introduced TV within 15 years. It's not talking about war. Although I can't wait for the ultra-violent first person shooter generation to take the reins of power... :rolleyes:

I don't know why it's so unbelievable to you all: if a kid sees violence in real life they're more likely to copy it. It a kid sees violence on TV from a young age where as the guy pointed out they can't actually distinguish between reality and fiction the same thing must apply.


...look to the parents if you want to find out why a child is violent....Another good point. Yet another factor that could contribute.


Can't go to a beach and watch chicks wearing bikinis in the midwest. Plenty of that one the coast though. :cool:LOL True that. The midwest is one big cabin waiting for the fever.


inbreeding
thats whyLOL, true that, the midwest is one big cabin with one nearby sister, waiting for the fever!


Read my orginal post #4.

:DOK :)

[Shaolinlueb]

i say we give 41 kids a unique weapon, food, water, and a compass and put them on an island to duke it out to see which 1 student comes out alive. and we will put a collar around their neck to blow their heads off if they try to escape or take the collar off. and if they dont kill anyone in 24 hours we blow one of their heads off automatically. and every 4 hours we will make a zone on the island automatic blow head off zone. we will call it BATTLE ROYAL!