Had no idea how to answer this

[Water Dragon]

Afterthe kids class tonight, I was talking with two of the other coaches. One is a blackbelt in Judo, a purple in BJJ, and has recently got interested in MMA. We're talking real world martial artists, not internet geeks like us. You know, people that come in and train hard, but then go live their life. We start talking about Tai Chi and I show them a little of what I used to do. Then I showed them a little bit of Southern Mantis. The guy asks me straight out, as sincerely as can be, "How come you never see those guys fight. All I could say was, "I don't know, they just don't for some reason."

After about 8 years of first being involved in, then seeing countless threads on this subject, I had no idea what to say.

And yes, I already know this is gonna turn into the infamous monster thread that pops up once a week, I just wanted to share that story. I guess I want to hear how you guys would have answered that question.

[SPJ]

I guess this is a regional issue.

how many people are doing mantis in town?

if you are watching MMA games in China.

you would see people doing mantis or tong bei entering Chinese MMA events in China.

that is b/c there are more people or pools of people doing style specific than people doing non style specific in China.

there more people doing bjj and mma in your area or town compared with almost none doing mantis in your town?

:D

[Water Dragon]

This is just a regualr guy who wouldn't know one system of CMA from the next. I'm pretty sure he was referring to CMA in general.

[SPJ]

http://www.wohsai.com/

here is a popular Chinese MMA and sanda website.

they post chinese MMA and san da fight videos and forums.

the main page also features several schools such as wing chun, mantis, and tong bei, they have students participating in Chinese MMA and san da with the rules.

you may click on the links.

:)

[MightyB]

Hey- it's happening now. It was just a matter of time and growing pains. I think CMA is almost through most of the growing pains already- there was a lot of in built prejudice that had to be overcome before CMA could grow again. Think of it like a woman giving birth- before the baby comes- there's a lot of constrictions- pain- swearing and yelling-it's real heck- but after all that, there's a new baby and peaceful feeling overwhelms the room.

Now you see fighters with San Da as their base striking style. A lot of people train traditional along with San Da- or they started in traditional before moving on to San Da. Long story short- it's proving to be as effective as Thai boxing or Bando for the striking component of MMA. So, you still have to look for it- but CMA is used for ring fighting.

If all else fails- remember these two words: Cung Le

[MasterKiller]

Now you see fighters with San Da as their base striking style. A lot of people train traditional along with San Da- or they started in traditional before moving on to San Da. Long story short- it's proving to be as effective as Thai boxing or Bando for the striking component of MMA. So, you still have to look for it- but CMA is used for ring fighting. That's what I did. Ditched the forms and weapons. Adopted San Da as my striking base. I added a judo guy, an old school submission guy, and a high school wrestling coach to help with the ground game. We are 1-0 in MMA, and have more fights coming up. My guys use a lot of CMA.


If all else fails- remember these two words: Cung Le
Well, a lot of people do not take him serious yet. He still has to beat a few high level guys.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Afterthe kids class tonight, I was talking with two of the other coaches. One is a blackbelt in Judo, a purple in BJJ, and has recently got interested in MMA. We're talking real world martial artists, not internet geeks like us. You know, people that come in and train hard, but then go live their life. We start talking about Tai Chi and I show them a little of what I used to do. Then I showed them a little bit of Southern Mantis. The guy asks me straight out, as sincerely as can be, "How come you never see those guys fight. All I could say was, "I don't know, they just don't for some reason."

After about 8 years of first being involved in, then seeing countless threads on this subject, I had no idea what to say.

And yes, I already know this is gonna turn into the infamous monster thread that pops up once a week, I just wanted to share that story. I guess I want to hear how you guys would have answered that question.

Many people don't see the reason to compete.
Sometimes its that simple.
Other times its because they suck and would lose, its that simple too.

I went to a MA gym a ahwile back, a hybrid gym that does a little of everything and is FMA based, they were doing ful contact sparring and such and they do it 2x a week.
I asked if they compete and the instructor said no, not really but anyone can if they want to.
They just don't.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's how I see it, Water Dragon.

Without full contact sparring venues - no martial art is worth bothering about anymore, imo.

Too much bull5hit gets swept under the rug - and too many unworkable and totally impractical fight strategies and techniques are maintained - and even held in high esteem by those who either don't know 5hit or who should know better.

And my art, wing chun, is one of the culprits, in fact. I've been calling for an organized inter-lineage Wing Chun Sparring Tournament venue for years now - and one that would allow and encourage other non-wing chun stylists to participate - without stacking the rules or the judging against them.

[lkfmdc]

Here's how I see it, Water Dragon.

Without full contact sparring venues - no martial art is worth bothering about anymore, imo.

Too much bull5hit gets swept under the rug - and too many unworkable and totally impractical fight strategies and techniques are maintained - and even held in high esteem by those who either don't know 5hit or who should know better.

And my art, wing chun, is one of the culprits, in fact. I've been calling for an organized inter-lineage Wing Chun Sparring Tournament venue for years now - and one that would allow and encourage other non-wing chun stylists to participate - without stacking the rules or the judging against them.

Victor, that was a great post! I agree completely with it!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thank you.

[MightyB]

That's what I did. Ditched the forms and weapons. Adopted San Da as my striking base. I added a judo guy, an old school submission guy, and a high school wrestling coach to help with the ground game.

I've taken a similar approach except that I didn't completely dump forms and weapons, but, then again, I have no intention being a cage fighter.

I added Judo with the intention of making my ability to apply traditional kung fu better, but somewhere along the way, I ended up being a pretty competent Judo competitor- makes me wish I would have started Judo when I was real young.

Anyway- my appreciation for forms has changed- I understand the appeal of Wushu now. Why wouldn't you want to fly through the air if you we're in it for the forms? I mean, some forms are needed to help program your body into a new way of moving- but after awhile- the redundancy is quite unnecessary- they become a way to show off- so I says- if you're going to show off- show off big.

Same reason people migrate to San Da- if you're going to fight- then learn to fight... ok rambling now-

I'll probably always have this more traditional approach where I'll teach the forms and applications- plus add the groundwork and throwing of Judo- but my intention is that I'll be the doorway for a person to start learning- kind of like a general practitioner, but if they decide that they want to specialize in Fighting like San Da, or MMA- I'll at least have given them a decent base and I'll be able to point them in the right direction of which gyms they should join so that they can become better fighters. Same thing if they're into Talou. The traditional foundation I'd give them would show through a wushu form demonstration. But, to learn modern forms- they'd have to join a wushu school. But then again- I'm comfortable with what I know and don't feel threatened by students branching out- as a matter of fact- I encourage it. Heck- I do it, why shouldn't they?

Anyway- rambled off topic-

The B

[lkfmdc]

To borrow from Buddhism, it's always the middle road, ie arguments that "kung fu doesn't work" are as misguided as arguments about "deadly and advanced secret kung fu"

Step one: it's not what you practice, it is HOW you practice

Step two: if you practice with realism, alive, resistance, ie the "HOW" is correct, then some will remain, some will fall to the side, and new will fill the holes

For those who build tradition into a church, they miss the opportunity to grow by learning new things. Hey, I have a school, I have an association, I teach other instructors, but I also still train to expand my own horizons. Was training with EriK Paulson a few weekends ago. Relevant because as originally a JKD guy, he still has kept aspects of Wing Chun in what he does today (ie "Combat Submission Wrestling")

[MasterKiller]

I've taken a similar approach except that I didn't completely dump forms and weapons, but, then again, I have no intention being a cage fighter.

If I was running classes 6 days a week, I would have time to teach forms along with everything else. As it is, I run classes 3 times a week for 1.5 hours, so I have to distill everything in order to make it effective.

I still practice my forms, I just don't teach them.

[MightyB]

MasterKiller-

It sounds like you've discovered your path- there's nothing wrong with that. At your stage- you are a fighter- I say go balls out and it sounds like you are. There's nothing wrong with that- as a matter of fact- most people would love to find the true reason they're into KF.

The B

[bawang]

if you just do one or two forms in your life, learning one technique a month just takes five minutes, then you can spar for every class.
i think the people who can't fight jumped to the forms instead of practicing basics.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dave Ross,

Is "Combat Submission Wrestling" a video?

If so, where is it being sold? A website?

[MasterKiller]

At your stage- you are a fighter- I say go balls out and it sounds like you are. LOL. I wish I was a fighter. If I had started training like this 10 years ago when I took up kung fu, I might be by now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dave Ross,

Is "Combat Submission Wrestling" a video?

If so, where is it being sold? A website?

Its top notch stuff dude, I think there are seminars available too.

[lkfmdc]

Dave Ross,

Is "Combat Submission Wrestling" a video?

If so, where is it being sold? A website?

Combat Submission Wrestling is Erik Paulson's organization and system, combining his experiences in JKD, Shooto, Catch wrestling, BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai, etc...

IMO the first and still one of the only totally integrated systems that integrates all aspects of fighting in one system.

Erik has TONS of videos on a variety of topics, his web site is www.ErikPaulson.com

[MightyB]

Sweeet- any website that has a pic of the famous STFU on the home page is awesome! www.ErikPaulson.com

That alone makes it worthwhile.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

if you just do one or two forms in your life, learning one technique a month just takes five minutes, then you can spar for every class.
i think the people who can't fight jumped to the forms instead of practicing basics.

Reply]
Yeah, that is what I see too.

[rogue]

Was training with EriK Paulson a few weekends ago. Relevant because as originally a JKD guy, he still has kept aspects of Wing Chun in what he does today (ie "Combat Submission Wrestling")

Interesting, how so?

[Mas Judt]

Some groups don't compete, some do.

Here's a Bak Mei school that offers bare knuckle open-floor fighting: www.undergroundkungfu.com

Some don't because they see the rules interfering with their doctrine. But one of my old coaches, who was a stickler for the original training forced us to compete in every dang combat sport available - regardless if the rules worked against us. We won an awful lot even though most rule sets were completely neutering for the art.

It's a blance, a little sport fighting is very good for you. Too much takes the 'self defense skill' out of it - just watch Jason Chambers get clobbered with a rebar when he pulled guard on a Marine, or stabbed repeatedly by an Israeli as he shot in.

Like Coach Ross said, it's a balance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some groups don't compete, some do.

Here's a Bak Mei school that offers bare knuckle open-floor fighting: www.undergroundkungfu.com

Some don't because they see the rules interfering with their doctrine. But one of my old coaches, who was a stickler for the original training forced us to compete in every dang combat sport available - regardless if the rules worked against us. We won an awful lot even though most rule sets were completely neutering for the art.

It's a blance, a little sport fighting is very good for you. Too much takes the 'self defense skill' out of it - just watch Jason Chambers get clobbered with a rebar when he pulled guard on a Marine, or stabbed repeatedly by an Israeli as he shot in.

Like Coach Ross said, it's a balance.

You mean Ka-Bar not rebar.

[lkfmdc]

Some groups don't compete, some do.



it isn't even about competition as much as training method. Most of my students don't compete, but they train like the ones that do!




Here's a Bak Mei school that offers bare knuckle open-floor fighting:



The only problem I have with stuff like that is "who are they fighting with"? A pseudo challenge "come into my school and fight me" environment is going to turn a lot of people off, and the people it does attract are usually the "clueless"...

I don't believe in "kid sister testing", ie "I beat up my kid sister with this, so it must work"

Sport, if that is what you want to call it, creates an openness. Guys get together and train hard without the "you've betrayed Shaolin" thing :p

[Egg fu young]

Afterthe kids class tonight, I was talking with two of the other coaches. One is a blackbelt in Judo, a purple in BJJ, and has recently got interested in MMA. We're talking real world martial artists, not internet geeks like us. You know, people that come in and train hard, but then go live their life. We start talking about Tai Chi and I show them a little of what I used to do. Then I showed them a little bit of Southern Mantis. The guy asks me straight out, as sincerely as can be, "How come you never see those guys fight. All I could say was, "I don't know, they just don't for some reason."

After about 8 years of first being involved in, then seeing countless threads on this subject, I had no idea what to say.

And yes, I already know this is gonna turn into the infamous monster thread that pops up once a week, I just wanted to share that story. I guess I want to hear how you guys would have answered that question.

Not practical for combat. I've fought in Judo competitions and toughman contests and as much as I love practicing my Tai Chi. I dont think it ever helped me in either. Now as I creep on 40 years old I'm practicing more TCMA because the injuries of combat are slowing me down.

[Mas Judt]

Coach Ross,
I call that 'idiot testing'. Don't think it applies in Zhang's case. But what's wrong with the open floor? No one ever b!tched about the Gracies offering one. No one accused them of fighting kid sisters.

I agree on the training method approach - but - focusing exclusively on sport usage produces leaks that can cost your life.

This is not even a debatable point. A clear distinction needs to be drawn between the two. As good as live training is for developing skills, it also creates very bad habits because of the rules and the tendency to 'work' the rules for a 'win.'

Nontheless, without it, players are often unprepared physically and psychologically.

[Pork Chop]

The only problem I have with stuff like that is "who are they fighting with"?

A few months back I posted videos of him cornering a dude in mma with a pretty good record. Granted the kid's bjj secured the match for him, but he definitely trains there.

Same video where we were discussing whether or not the padwork had kung fu influence by the way. I maintained that the combos were not typical of the boxing gyms I've trained at.

[lkfmdc]

No one ever b!tched about the Gracies offering one. No one accused them of fighting kid sisters.



sure they did! Lots of people, myself included, pointed out that the guys in the much flaunted "Gracie in Action" tapes weren't much in the way of fighters. Clueless karate guys who had never sparred, the so called "hapkido master" in the foam booties doing point sparring, the kenpo guy who "agreed not to hurt them", the list goes on!!!!

[Mas Judt]

Nah coach, your mixing things up. This is not a 'gracie challenge' thing, it is an open floor, just like they used (maybe still) have at Fairtex.

[Lucas]

Afterthe kids class tonight, I was talking with two of the other coaches. One is a blackbelt in Judo, a purple in BJJ, and has recently got interested in MMA. We're talking real world martial artists, not internet geeks like us. You know, people that come in and train hard, but then go live their life. We start talking about Tai Chi and I show them a little of what I used to do. Then I showed them a little bit of Southern Mantis. The guy asks me straight out, as sincerely as can be, "How come you never see those guys fight. All I could say was, "I don't know, they just don't for some reason."

After about 8 years of first being involved in, then seeing countless threads on this subject, I had no idea what to say.

And yes, I already know this is gonna turn into the infamous monster thread that pops up once a week, I just wanted to share that story. I guess I want to hear how you guys would have answered that question.

I would have told him to look harder for the fights, he can find them.

[EarthDragon]

I would have to say that no one takes the time/years/decades to learn how to actually apply the techniques they have learned.

Most people learn way too much before they have mastered what they already know making the collections of techniques useless not the lack of fighting ability in the CMA themselves.